What it (arena) rewards is Composition, hard-counters and every now and then a just plain overpowered FOTM class. That was the brilliant thing about Rated Battlegrounds - suddenly class's role in win/loss was incredibly diminished, and the smarter and better team still won. This all goes back to the MMA/soccer thing. I don't think reducing the number of people competing or reducing the amount of objectives makes a person more or less skilled - especially not in a class-based game. This is why there are no rewards other than like, an achievement or two for dueling, and why there's zero emphasis on 2v2 nowadays: the less players on the field in a class-based game, the more the class they've chosen matters. Not skill, class, and by extension, comp.
Some people call the composition metagame a kind of skill. I don't.
What it (arena) rewards is Composition, hard-counters and every now and then a just plain overpowered FOTM class. That was the brilliant thing about Rated Battlegrounds - suddenly class's role in win/loss was incredibly diminished, and the smarter and better team still won. This all goes back to the MMA/soccer thing. I don't think reducing the number of people competing or reducing the amount of objectives makes a person more or less skilled - especially not in a class-based game. This is why there are no rewards other than like, an achievement or two for dueling, and why there's zero emphasis on 2v2 nowadays: the less players on the field in a class-based game, the more the class they've chosen matters. Not skill, class, and by extension, comp.
Some people call the composition metagame a kind of skill. I don't.
f you think it was only hard-countering, composition you're wrong there weren't that many seasons with one completely FOTM comp
check Hoodrch's WLD s7-s8 WLD wasn't that good yet they managed to place top 4 at tournaments (although they never won) in an era of massively FOTM comps
Orangemarmalade's RMP they managed to win tournaments and place VERY WELL at a time where no other RMP was competitive and RMP was a shit comp
and there's many more examples
there's a balance between more and less players
2v2 too little
3v3 good
5v5+ too much
for TDM
it depends
I hate to be rude but anyone thinking that RBGs take more skill than arena have never been good in arena
MMO e-sports are a complete flop at the moment. People only watch WoW PvP because they already play WoW. Try getting a random guy to watch WoW e-sports and like it.
So why would anyone say GW2's PvP isn't as good an e-sport as any other MMO when they all suck major balls for half of the reason stated in the OP i don't know. I wonder if it's occured that the reason people don't like MMO e-sports is because they're all about group composition and whether or not the healer's any good?
Also, what more 'clutch' play do you want with protective skills and dodging! Spamming a heal at the right moment is only one form a clutch play. GW2 has many, many more that are exciting to watch.
Again, i feel the OP is missing the point with a very, very narrow minded view of how GW2 plays.
I hate to be rude but anyone thinking that RBGs take more skill than arena have never been good in arena
I didn't say "more skill," I said "the same amount of skill."
It doesn't really matter in the long run either way, because (and the post above mine basically says the same) the only thing, the only thing that matters about an E-Sport is, is this game entertaining to watch?
I think in regards to GW2 it'll have to remain to be seen, but my money is on an objective-based, mid-size team being the most entertaining type, and NOT a small-team deathmatch.
It is not really the number of skills that matters... In some games you have loads of rather similar skills and people make a macro pushing most of them.
Timing is what matters, you must not only know which skill to push but also exactly when to push it for maximum effect.
As for spamming the way to avoid that is usually a macro, in most games you spam 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 over and over instead if you are the spamming type. This really isn´t much different.
Most games have 1 or 2 more powerfull skills with long cooldown, you are just focusing on the "elite" word.
As for killing the healer being fun in PvP, you will just have a different strategy in GW2.I can´t promise that it will be more fun or anything since I havn´t tried it yet, but it do opens up opportunities for a more interesting tactic. Lets just wait and see on that one.
NOTE: THIS IS FOR STRUCTURED PVP AND ANET'S WISH OF GW2 BECOMING AN ESPORT
1. Keybinds
Sure, having tons of keybinds and remembering them is a tedious task,
however they contribute to the abstract term known as skillcap. Due to having more options the skillcap of a game becomes higher, simply because there's much more to chose from. Not to metnion, having lots of keybinds in itself raises the skillcap because you do of course have to remember them. Basically, less options = less skillcap. Less options makes outplaying people harder and harder.
Completely false, more keybinds simply make the UI bulkier and make it a bit more confusing for new players, but at a professional level it doesn't matter how many keybindings you throw at someone.
Let's take a look at other competitive games shall we:
Fighting Games - 4-6 buttons + joystick inputs
Shooters - Heavily mouse controlled, has a few keybindings, but generally less than 10 keys needed to play effectively.
MOBAs - 4 keybindings for skills and a few more for other controls. Generally you'll need to memorize less than 8 keybinds.
RTS games which DO require a lot of keybindings.
The only MMO that could be considered an Esport at the moment (which is EXTREMELY debatable on the skill level needed to play at a professional level compared to simply time investment) is WoW. Yes, it has some 30+ keybinds needed to memorize in professional play, but taking a sample size of 1 competitive MMO doesn't necessarily give you a good basis to make such a general assumption that more keybinds = a higher skill cap.
2. Spamming
Due to 1 being spammable and 2-5 being either just special skills with cooldowns or situational skills, all we will be doing is pressing 1 until our higher dmg/special abilities come off cooldown, or until our situational skills are off cooldown. After that it's just popping utilities and elites every once in a while. Not much variety in gameplay.
The notion that being able to spam certain abilities means less of a skillcap is false also. You have autoattacks in WoW and MOBAs (although in MOBAs you control it in order to last hit effectively and break animation). You often "spam" your gunfire in shooters. In fighting games you'll see the same moves repeated over and over (like how a newbie might go: "OMFG that Sagat is just spamming Tiger Shots what a scrub"). Again, we only need to look at other games to see how false this assumption is.
3. Elites
I-WIN-BUTTON. These are gimmicks, although if not made too op I guess they will be fine.
CoD kills streaks, ultimates in MOBA, long cooldown skills in WoW (like Heroism)....
4. No Juking
Since dazing/stunning a cast while it's being casted has no benefit over randomly stunning/dazing, juking becomes unimportant. (Not to mention juking isn't even implemented in this game)
You can juke with dodge, causing the person to waste their ability. It's basically the same as juking by forcing players to waste interrupts in WoW.
5. No Healers
(I love this "no trinity" system so don't flame me for this) Having healers gives another dimension to competitive PvP. To kill the opposing team one has to cc/stop the healer from free casting, while without healers it's just who dpses more. However, I'll go ahead and state that this arguements is pretty invalid for two reasons: Firstly, healers still exist in GW2 wether you want it or not (Mace/Focus support Guardians, Healing Turret Engineers, etc.). Secondly, I'm way oversimplyfing the "it's just who dpses more" part of combat. This is just a thought to keep in mind.
It has no "spamming" (see your #2 complaint) healers. It has soft healers who cannot spam their heals to keep someone alive. Also, everyone gets a heal and the heal you choose makes a significant difference. This is just like how it works in MOBAs, and esport game.
6. Positioning
This isn't a valid arguement to make up for all the "skillcap factors" pointed above. Just because they made the Z axis more important it doesn't mean that the skillcap will raise massively. Positioning exists in every competitive game, and also is a crucial skillcap factore in basically all competitive games. Just because you have to "aim" some skills (which isn't even hard) positioning isn't made that much more important. Just because you can dodge skills positioning isn't made that much more important.
This is an absolutely absurd agruement. Positioning is just as important as it is in any other game.
7. Conquest vs TDM
Look, I know there's some of you guys who are in love with conquest, but from what I have heard from almost every person who has done very competitive PvP in other MMOs/games, they find conquest to be a game mode that doesn't reward skill, clutch moves, and teamwork. "BUT INSOMNIACC, YOU NEED TEAMWORK TO CAP POINTS!!!" No, you don't, you just need a basic strat that dictates who goes where. That's not teamwork. Another reason why it doesn't reward skill is because of the nature of conquest. If one makes a huge mistake in a TDM you are pretty much screwed or at a pretty big disadvantage; if one makes a huge mistake in a conquest match all you lose is a capture point(1p/sec) that can be recaptured in a match that lasts 500 points. TDM is just much more competitive. Knowing when to use your elites and utility skills should be a skill to admire, however in Conquest, the one who pops his skills very often will be rewarded way too much. All in all, Conquest = more a BG than an Arena.
Many eSports games do not use a TDM format, especially team based games. Most shooters have CTF and Conquest / King of the Hill style formats for competitive play. MOBAs have objectives other than just going for kills for example. You do need teamwork to cap points. You can't just say "X goes there and Y goes there", you need to be a lot more flexible than that and change as the situation dictates. That's like saying in a MOBA no teamwork is involved because a carry and a support will always go bot lane. You also throw out lots of absurd assumptions again like using skills more often will be rewarded more than someone who uses they at opportune times. Don't make me laugh.
8. Automated tournies
The way automated tournies will work (from the info that we have been told) will reward people who no life more than people who have greater skill. The way automated tournaments should work is the following: You should need a specific ladder raiting to be able to enter the tournaments. Then you should get an ELO depending on your tournament placement compared to the skill of others. This way you won't get rewarded equally if you beat someone who is rank 100 vs someone who is top 10. Is a system like this isn't implemented getting into monthly tournaments will just be a matter of who spams more tournaments.
That's how it works. You play tournaments to essentially qualify for the higher ranking tournaments. It's a similar system to ELO in that it weeds out the players who don't belong in the monthly+ tournaments. You need to win or place high in the tournaments to qualify for monthly tournaments so simply spamming monthly tournaments isn't going to help you qualify because the truely tournament qualified teams will steamroll you.It's actually very similar to how other qualifiers work in other eSports.
TLDR: The game isn't "korean" enough to be competitive.
-Needs more outplaying options
-Needs to reward skill more.
-Needs to reward clutch more.
Is this a joke?
Sidenote: Movement, animations, particle effects still need a lot of fixing
Movement: Not fluid
How so?
Animations: Some are clunky, most are fine
Be a little more specific.
Particle effects: We all know this needs toning down
So do the devs. They are working on it.
Not sure why I even bother replying. Doubt the OP really knows much about esports. Have you ever even won ANY money playing an Esport? Let me break down the 3 requirements for being an Esport for you:
Has to be competitive. (Guild Wars 2 is, check)
Has the be fun to watch so you can have an audience in order to make money to run the events. (Guild Wars 2 probably is, check)
Has to reward competitors with prizes (usually cash) for winning tournaments, which it can do through sponsorships like showing adverts on Twitch.tv during the match or entry fees to the tournament. (Guild Wars 2 seems to have this covered, check)
Now just how popular of an Esport Guild Wars 2 becomes remains to be seen, but I think the assumption that Guild Wars 2 cannot be an Esport is just silly, especially when in my opinion every sign points to it beating World of Warcraft in all the above areas.
He was probably typing too fast or copy/paste the post he posted in other site. He forgot to remove the name Sanctum ( which I quoted in RED in first page ).
No idea why he has to post it under a new account though
He was probably typing too fast or copy/paste the post he posted in other site. He forgot to remove the name Sanctum ( which I quoted in RED in first page ).
No idea why he has to post it under a new account though
Maybe I don't frequent these forums enough. Why do we care?
He was probably typing too fast or copy/paste the post he posted in other site. He forgot to remove the name Sanctum ( which I quoted in RED in first page ).
No idea why he has to post it under a new account though
Maybe I don't frequent these forums enough. Why do we care?
Long story. Regular GW2 forum visitor would know the reason though. The thing jumped out for me is just the new account thing. I didn't bother to read his whole thread. One thing I know, he never played the game but he thinks he knows the game more than developers.
Theres no healer class but everyone has the potential to be a supporter/healer.
Why can't the idots get this through their heads
Well, you can't be a "healer"... there are no direct cast heals (aside from your personal one). You can't target someone and cast a heal on them, at all. The best you can do is apply buffs to them that increase their regen rate, and multiples only stack in duration, not intensity.
He was probably typing too fast or copy/paste the post he posted in other site. He forgot to remove the name Sanctum ( which I quoted in RED in first page ).
No idea why he has to post it under a new account though
Maybe I don't frequent these forums enough. Why do we care?
It's because people who post under different names, usually don't have good intentions (i.e. they know they're wrong but they post anyway in order to start a flamewar or bash a game they don't like).
Here's a question I'd like to raise regarding PvP: Will there be target priorities? I ask this because players in Guild Wars 2 can quickly change their roles in the battlefield, and everyone is essentially a hybrid.
Theres no healer class but everyone has the potential to be a supporter/healer.
Why can't the idots get this through their heads
not really a healer but you can have support builds that focus on that. Most of the weapon skills tend to be damage abilities though so you can't have a pure support build.
However, you cannot have a solely healing build. For one, there are no direct heals, and almost all healing skills just provide the regeneration boon, which can only stack in duration not effectiveness. And then you add in the relative long cooldowns for the healing skills and it is pretty much impossible to make a healer.
NOTE: THIS IS FOR STRUCTURED PVP AND ANET'S WISH OF GW2 BECOMING AN ESPORT
1. Keybinds
Sure, having tons of keybinds and remembering them is a tedious task,
however they contribute to the abstract term known as skillcap. Due to having more options the skillcap of a game becomes higher, simply because there's much more to chose from. Not to metnion, having lots of keybinds in itself raises the skillcap because you do of course have to remember them. Basically, less options = less skillcap. Less options makes outplaying people harder and harder.
2. Spamming
Due to 1 being spammable and 2-5 being either just special skills with cooldowns or situational skills, all we will be doing is pressing 1 until our higher dmg/special abilities come off cooldown, or until our situational skills are off cooldown. After that it's just popping utilities and elites every once in a while. Not much variety in gameplay.
3. Elites
I-WIN-BUTTON. These are gimmicks, although if not made too op I guess they will be fine.
4. No Juking
Since dazing/stunning a cast while it's being casted has no benefit over randomly stunning/dazing, juking becomes unimportant. (Not to mention juking isn't even implemented in this game)
5. No Healers
(I love this "no trinity" system so don't flame me for this) Having healers gives another dimension to competitive PvP. To kill the opposing team one has to cc/stop the healer from free casting, while without healers it's just who dpses more. However, I'll go ahead and state that this arguements is pretty invalid for two reasons: Firstly, healers still exist in GW2 wether you want it or not (Mace/Focus support Guardians, Healing Turret Engineers, etc.). Secondly, I'm way oversimplyfing the "it's just who dpses more" part of combat. This is just a thought to keep in mind.
6. Positioning
This isn't a valid arguement to make up for all the "skillcap factors" pointed above. Just because they made the Z axis more important it doesn't mean that the skillcap will raise massively. Positioning exists in every competitive game, and also is a crucial skillcap factore in basically all competitive games. Just because you have to "aim" some skills (which isn't even hard) positioning isn't made that much more important. Just because you can dodge skills positioning isn't made that much more important.
7. Conquest vs TDM
Look, I know there's some of you guys who are in love with conquest, but from what I have heard from almost every person who has done very competitive PvP in other MMOs/games, they find conquest to be a game mode that doesn't reward skill, clutch moves, and teamwork. "BUT INSOMNIACC, YOU NEED TEAMWORK TO CAP POINTS!!!" No, you don't, you just need a basic strat that dictates who goes where. That's not teamwork. Another reason why it doesn't reward skill is because of the nature of conquest. If one makes a huge mistake in a TDM you are pretty much screwed or at a pretty big disadvantage; if one makes a huge mistake in a conquest match all you lose is a capture point(1p/sec) that can be recaptured in a match that lasts 500 points. TDM is just much more competitive. Knowing when to use your elites and utility skills should be a skill to admire, however in Conquest, the one who pops his skills very often will be rewarded way too much. All in all, Conquest = more a BG than an Arena.
8. Automated tournies
The way automated tournies will work (from the info that we have been told) will reward people who no life more than people who have greater skill. The way automated tournaments should work is the following: You should need a specific ladder raiting to be able to enter the tournaments. Then you should get an ELO depending on your tournament placement compared to the skill of others. This way you won't get rewarded equally if you beat someone who is rank 100 vs someone who is top 10. Is a system like this isn't implemented getting into monthly tournaments will just be a matter of who spams more tournaments.
TLDR: The game isn't "korean" enough to be competitive.
-Needs more outplaying options
-Needs to reward skill more.
-Needs to reward clutch more.
Sidenote: Movement, animations, particle effects still need a lot of fixing
Movement: Not fluid
Animations: Some are clunky, most are fine
Particle effects: We all know this needs toning down
1. There are huge options to choose from in GW2, but you can only have some of them usable during combat, its about making the choice from the options you are given, if not, you are simply just playing the same character as everyone else. If other Esport titles, you aren't expected to use every single skill or unit.
In starcraft, you don't see professional player use every single unit from one race, they have just 2 or 3 main units and mix with others as a supplement to opponent's strategy.
In FPS, players are allow to have 4 guns max, just because you have options to have 50+ guns, doesn't mean you have to use all of them.
In trading card games, I know yugioh and magic from personal experience, you have the option to go above the minimal deck sizes, but it is not the prefered choice because it will affect the consistency of decks.
There is a reason no MMORPG is considered as true Esport, because if each player is equipped with 40 skills at once, the outcome is often determined by the luck of who pulls off most skills fastest, and balancing will become a cooldown increase/reduction. A competitive game isn't just about who has the fastest fingers to use 50 skills at once, but also making tactical choices. And choosing the right skills to use is one of them.
There is a reason why GW1 was one of the more balanced PvP game, because it controls the skill combination much more effectively.
2. Your idea of lacking variety is flawed, GW2 has many skills for you to build your loadout, sure it might get boring after 5 hours of using the same skillset, but you have the option to change it up. It will then ask you to make more entertaining skills and explore how other skills are used together. Maybe use a different weapon, a different combination of dual-wielding, different powers from your class. This is much better than the old school MMORPG combat system, where you just keep getting more and more skills to use, but often 90% of them are ignored, because it simply isn't needed. But instead, you have to use all your skill and make different conbination.
Also using examples from the previous point, starcraft and trading card games also poses this 'limitation' of variety that you have said. But what has resulted in the end? Two terran players can have two completely different usage of units, they can have different combination of units that provides a differing experience to the combat. Trading cards, you have different decktypes and skill style, aggressive and utility decks. Each have strengths and weakness. When you have a class that you need to use all 30 skill to compete, each class will play the exact same way, one rogue is no different from the other rogue, because they both have to utilise the same skills to be effective.
3. League of Legends have ultimates, and they now are starting to be considered to become one of the top Esports title in Korea, I-WIN button? I think not.
4. Do you mean interrupting? Wouldn't that put the skill into cooldown, and they suffer?
5. Just kill people who tries to revive other players instead? This happens in DCUO all the time.
6. Not sure which Esports field are you refering to, but positioning is almost the biggest skillcap in most Esport.
Sports titles like FIFA: Well, better positioning helps you score, it is the single biggest factor between newbs and experience players. They read plays.
Starcraft: attack formation, defence turrets, they are all position related skills
Tekken/other arcade fighting games: Ok combo is the most important skill here, but positioning is the key to hit off combos
MOBA: well......positioning is like......the entire game skillcap.
FPS: Camp spot, hide spot, fps is all aobut terrain knowledge and aiming, again, all about positioning.
Position is one of the most player influenced skill mechanic, since it has no statisical involvment from gears (unless certain attribute improves movement speed or armor weight) so for a skillbase PvP environment, positioning is usually the biggest skill factor in determining the best players. Just look at MMORPG combat, you stand there, a big reason why MMORPG isn't a good Esport contender.
7. The points you make in here contradicts what you said before.
"If one makes a huge mistake in a TDM you are pretty much screwed or at a pretty big disadvantage; if one makes a huge mistake in a conquest match all you lose is a capture point(1p/sec) that can be recaptured in a match that lasts 500 points."
But in your first point, you said "Less options makes outplaying people harder and harder." So you want outplaying people to be easier, but you want a huge advantage when your opponent makes a mistake. That doesn't sound like it will reward good players. That will make the competition go up and down all the time, unable to display a close battle.
"Knowing when to use your elites and utility skills should be a skill to admire, however in Conquest, the one who pops his skills very often will be rewarded way too much"
But you stated before "After that it's just popping utilities and elites every once in a while. Not much variety in gameplay." I agree it should be a skill to admire, so variety down the drain?
I believe they haven't done much on optimization yet, so particle effects will be controlled and animation might still be in works since they are only just implementing the new cutscene animation.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I deleted everything you said besides section titles
1. Keybinds
You don't need 600 skills to have intresting combat
2. Spamming
1 is just auto attack you can turn it to auto, I do see how mana or something else could add some more strat to how it works but it's not needed
3. Elites
really? just look at dota and LoL I can't believe you put th
4. No Juking
I don't see how it's not useful to stun spells that you don't want people to cast
5. No Healers
yeah this dosn't really matter it's more like a healer in a DOTA style game, they are useful but they can't just sit there and spam heal through a mass of dps
6. Positioning
Most skills are ground targeted or can be dodge, it matters alot where you are standing.
7. Conquest vs TDM
completely agree that conquest is dumb but I don't know how much better TDM would be, I would rather have them come up with their own way.
8. Automated tournies
Yeah I could see some issue with this
All in all I don't think it will be very intresting of an E sport because I think it will be somewhat hard to see what is going on
for specators.
Really I think the 2D Esports games are the way to go for specators, maybe fps but I don't usually enjoy watching that
And one final thing the game isn't even out yet how the hell do we have any idea what the skill cap is or even feels like.
------------------------------------------------- Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
MMO e-sports are a complete flop at the moment. People only watch WoW PvP because they already play WoW. Try getting a random guy to watch WoW e-sports and like it.
So why would anyone say GW2's PvP isn't as good an e-sport as any other MMO when they all suck major balls for half of the reason stated in the OP i don't know. I wonder if it's occured that the reason people don't like MMO e-sports is because they're all about group composition and whether or not the healer's any good?
Also, what more 'clutch' play do you want with protective skills and dodging! Spamming a heal at the right moment is only one form a clutch play. GW2 has many, many more that are exciting to watch.
Again, i feel the OP is missing the point with a very, very narrow minded view of how GW2 plays.
I've noticed that it is very hard to enjoy spectating a video game unless I understand the mechanics of said video game...basically understanding and playing it myself.
As to WoW's PvP, it is very competitive and has a very high skill cap - not as much as SC2, but very high for a "themepark MMO". Arenas are the true measure of skill, 3v3 arena particularly.
I think what kills WoW's E-sport potential is the game is not easy to view and understand to spectators. In arena, even the tournament commentators cannot do a proper play by play because only the players themselves know the micro management they and their opponents are doing. Also, WoW's animations are somewhat static. It is easy to miss when somebody does something amazing because you just see flashes of spell animation and pixels. In SC2, it becomes very obvious what the players are doing, what they are building, and how they are controlling their units.
For WoW, only when the players themselves break down their gameplay, second by second, do we actually see the amazing things being pulled off that seperate good players from bad players.
They could get rid of the arena junk for all I care....If I want to play FPS, i'll play MW3 or something like it...I am only interested in the WvWvW for the mmo side of it....FPS does it better than MMOs imo....I prefer the chaotic 3 faction type stuff, verse arena stuff in a mmo.
I find arena and scenario stuff boring...Not everyone does, but I hope you don't have to do that junk to reach certain things in the game...Scenario stuff often ruins world pvp, when they make it too rewarding/instant.
Comments
What it (arena) rewards is Composition, hard-counters and every now and then a just plain overpowered FOTM class. That was the brilliant thing about Rated Battlegrounds - suddenly class's role in win/loss was incredibly diminished, and the smarter and better team still won. This all goes back to the MMA/soccer thing. I don't think reducing the number of people competing or reducing the amount of objectives makes a person more or less skilled - especially not in a class-based game. This is why there are no rewards other than like, an achievement or two for dueling, and why there's zero emphasis on 2v2 nowadays: the less players on the field in a class-based game, the more the class they've chosen matters. Not skill, class, and by extension, comp.
Some people call the composition metagame a kind of skill. I don't.
f you think it was only hard-countering, composition you're wrong there weren't that many seasons with one completely FOTM comp
check Hoodrch's WLD s7-s8 WLD wasn't that good yet they managed to place top 4 at tournaments (although they never won) in an era of massively FOTM comps
Orangemarmalade's RMP they managed to win tournaments and place VERY WELL at a time where no other RMP was competitive and RMP was a shit comp
and there's many more examples
there's a balance between more and less players
2v2 too little
3v3 good
5v5+ too much
for TDM
it depends
I hate to be rude but anyone thinking that RBGs take more skill than arena have never been good in arena
MMO e-sports are a complete flop at the moment. People only watch WoW PvP because they already play WoW. Try getting a random guy to watch WoW e-sports and like it.
So why would anyone say GW2's PvP isn't as good an e-sport as any other MMO when they all suck major balls for half of the reason stated in the OP i don't know. I wonder if it's occured that the reason people don't like MMO e-sports is because they're all about group composition and whether or not the healer's any good?
Also, what more 'clutch' play do you want with protective skills and dodging! Spamming a heal at the right moment is only one form a clutch play. GW2 has many, many more that are exciting to watch.
Again, i feel the OP is missing the point with a very, very narrow minded view of how GW2 plays.
I didn't say "more skill," I said "the same amount of skill."
It doesn't really matter in the long run either way, because (and the post above mine basically says the same) the only thing, the only thing that matters about an E-Sport is, is this game entertaining to watch?
I think in regards to GW2 it'll have to remain to be seen, but my money is on an objective-based, mid-size team being the most entertaining type, and NOT a small-team deathmatch.
It is not really the number of skills that matters... In some games you have loads of rather similar skills and people make a macro pushing most of them.
Timing is what matters, you must not only know which skill to push but also exactly when to push it for maximum effect.
As for spamming the way to avoid that is usually a macro, in most games you spam 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 over and over instead if you are the spamming type. This really isn´t much different.
Most games have 1 or 2 more powerfull skills with long cooldown, you are just focusing on the "elite" word.
As for killing the healer being fun in PvP, you will just have a different strategy in GW2.I can´t promise that it will be more fun or anything since I havn´t tried it yet, but it do opens up opportunities for a more interesting tactic. Lets just wait and see on that one.
I'm happy to know straight away that I should ignore his new account too.
Not sure why I even bother replying. Doubt the OP really knows much about esports. Have you ever even won ANY money playing an Esport? Let me break down the 3 requirements for being an Esport for you:
Has to be competitive. (Guild Wars 2 is, check)
Has the be fun to watch so you can have an audience in order to make money to run the events. (Guild Wars 2 probably is, check)
Has to reward competitors with prizes (usually cash) for winning tournaments, which it can do through sponsorships like showing adverts on Twitch.tv during the match or entry fees to the tournament. (Guild Wars 2 seems to have this covered, check)
Now just how popular of an Esport Guild Wars 2 becomes remains to be seen, but I think the assumption that Guild Wars 2 cannot be an Esport is just silly, especially when in my opinion every sign points to it beating World of Warcraft in all the above areas.
For people do didn't noticed. OP = Sanctum.
He was probably typing too fast or copy/paste the post he posted in other site. He forgot to remove the name Sanctum ( which I quoted in RED in first page ).
No idea why he has to post it under a new account though
Maybe I don't frequent these forums enough. Why do we care?
Long story. Regular GW2 forum visitor would know the reason though. The thing jumped out for me is just the new account thing. I didn't bother to read his whole thread. One thing I know, he never played the game but he thinks he knows the game more than developers.
Theres no healer class but everyone has the potential to be a supporter/healer.
Why can't the idots get this through their heads
Well, you can't be a "healer"... there are no direct cast heals (aside from your personal one). You can't target someone and cast a heal on them, at all. The best you can do is apply buffs to them that increase their regen rate, and multiples only stack in duration, not intensity.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It's because people who post under different names, usually don't have good intentions (i.e. they know they're wrong but they post anyway in order to start a flamewar or bash a game they don't like).
Eat me!
Here's a question I'd like to raise regarding PvP: Will there be target priorities? I ask this because players in Guild Wars 2 can quickly change their roles in the battlefield, and everyone is essentially a hybrid.
not really a healer but you can have support builds that focus on that. Most of the weapon skills tend to be damage abilities though so you can't have a pure support build.
However, you cannot have a solely healing build. For one, there are no direct heals, and almost all healing skills just provide the regeneration boon, which can only stack in duration not effectiveness. And then you add in the relative long cooldowns for the healing skills and it is pretty much impossible to make a healer.
1. There are huge options to choose from in GW2, but you can only have some of them usable during combat, its about making the choice from the options you are given, if not, you are simply just playing the same character as everyone else. If other Esport titles, you aren't expected to use every single skill or unit.
In starcraft, you don't see professional player use every single unit from one race, they have just 2 or 3 main units and mix with others as a supplement to opponent's strategy.
In FPS, players are allow to have 4 guns max, just because you have options to have 50+ guns, doesn't mean you have to use all of them.
In trading card games, I know yugioh and magic from personal experience, you have the option to go above the minimal deck sizes, but it is not the prefered choice because it will affect the consistency of decks.
There is a reason no MMORPG is considered as true Esport, because if each player is equipped with 40 skills at once, the outcome is often determined by the luck of who pulls off most skills fastest, and balancing will become a cooldown increase/reduction. A competitive game isn't just about who has the fastest fingers to use 50 skills at once, but also making tactical choices. And choosing the right skills to use is one of them.
There is a reason why GW1 was one of the more balanced PvP game, because it controls the skill combination much more effectively.
2. Your idea of lacking variety is flawed, GW2 has many skills for you to build your loadout, sure it might get boring after 5 hours of using the same skillset, but you have the option to change it up. It will then ask you to make more entertaining skills and explore how other skills are used together. Maybe use a different weapon, a different combination of dual-wielding, different powers from your class. This is much better than the old school MMORPG combat system, where you just keep getting more and more skills to use, but often 90% of them are ignored, because it simply isn't needed. But instead, you have to use all your skill and make different conbination.
Also using examples from the previous point, starcraft and trading card games also poses this 'limitation' of variety that you have said. But what has resulted in the end? Two terran players can have two completely different usage of units, they can have different combination of units that provides a differing experience to the combat. Trading cards, you have different decktypes and skill style, aggressive and utility decks. Each have strengths and weakness. When you have a class that you need to use all 30 skill to compete, each class will play the exact same way, one rogue is no different from the other rogue, because they both have to utilise the same skills to be effective.
3. League of Legends have ultimates, and they now are starting to be considered to become one of the top Esports title in Korea, I-WIN button? I think not.
4. Do you mean interrupting? Wouldn't that put the skill into cooldown, and they suffer?
5. Just kill people who tries to revive other players instead? This happens in DCUO all the time.
6. Not sure which Esports field are you refering to, but positioning is almost the biggest skillcap in most Esport.
Sports titles like FIFA: Well, better positioning helps you score, it is the single biggest factor between newbs and experience players. They read plays.
Starcraft: attack formation, defence turrets, they are all position related skills
Tekken/other arcade fighting games: Ok combo is the most important skill here, but positioning is the key to hit off combos
MOBA: well......positioning is like......the entire game skillcap.
FPS: Camp spot, hide spot, fps is all aobut terrain knowledge and aiming, again, all about positioning.
Position is one of the most player influenced skill mechanic, since it has no statisical involvment from gears (unless certain attribute improves movement speed or armor weight) so for a skillbase PvP environment, positioning is usually the biggest skill factor in determining the best players. Just look at MMORPG combat, you stand there, a big reason why MMORPG isn't a good Esport contender.
7. The points you make in here contradicts what you said before.
"If one makes a huge mistake in a TDM you are pretty much screwed or at a pretty big disadvantage; if one makes a huge mistake in a conquest match all you lose is a capture point(1p/sec) that can be recaptured in a match that lasts 500 points."
But in your first point, you said "Less options makes outplaying people harder and harder." So you want outplaying people to be easier, but you want a huge advantage when your opponent makes a mistake. That doesn't sound like it will reward good players. That will make the competition go up and down all the time, unable to display a close battle.
"Knowing when to use your elites and utility skills should be a skill to admire, however in Conquest, the one who pops his skills very often will be rewarded way too much"
But you stated before "After that it's just popping utilities and elites every once in a while. Not much variety in gameplay." I agree it should be a skill to admire, so variety down the drain?
I believe they haven't done much on optimization yet, so particle effects will be controlled and animation might still be in works since they are only just implementing the new cutscene animation.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
All in all I don't think it will be very intresting of an E sport because I think it will be somewhat hard to see what is going on
for specators.
Really I think the 2D Esports games are the way to go for specators, maybe fps but I don't usually enjoy watching that
And one final thing the game isn't even out yet how the hell do we have any idea what the skill cap is or even feels like.
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Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
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I've noticed that it is very hard to enjoy spectating a video game unless I understand the mechanics of said video game...basically understanding and playing it myself.
As to WoW's PvP, it is very competitive and has a very high skill cap - not as much as SC2, but very high for a "themepark MMO". Arenas are the true measure of skill, 3v3 arena particularly.
I think what kills WoW's E-sport potential is the game is not easy to view and understand to spectators. In arena, even the tournament commentators cannot do a proper play by play because only the players themselves know the micro management they and their opponents are doing. Also, WoW's animations are somewhat static. It is easy to miss when somebody does something amazing because you just see flashes of spell animation and pixels. In SC2, it becomes very obvious what the players are doing, what they are building, and how they are controlling their units.
For WoW, only when the players themselves break down their gameplay, second by second, do we actually see the amazing things being pulled off that seperate good players from bad players.
They could get rid of the arena junk for all I care....If I want to play FPS, i'll play MW3 or something like it...I am only interested in the WvWvW for the mmo side of it....FPS does it better than MMOs imo....I prefer the chaotic 3 faction type stuff, verse arena stuff in a mmo.
I find arena and scenario stuff boring...Not everyone does, but I hope you don't have to do that junk to reach certain things in the game...Scenario stuff often ruins world pvp, when they make it too rewarding/instant.