If you can't treat your game as a business, you do not deserve to be on the market.
Huge interest in a good properly funded sandbox MMO? Yeah definately. Obviously. Not sure why some of you are so against the idea that you can't even see that.
No one said they were against it. However, if you have numbers to support such a statement, then definitely share them because no one else seems willing to.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If you can't treat your game as a business, you do not deserve to be on the market.
Huge interest in a good properly funded sandbox MMO? Yeah definately. Obviously. Not sure why some of you are so against the idea that you can't even see that.
No one said they were against it. However, if you have numbers to support such a statement, then definitely share them because no one else seems willing to.
What kind of numbers could I possibly have? Just an overwhelming amount of evidence, from people talking on forums, to the popularity of singleplayer sandbox games. It might be debatable exactly how well they'd do, compared to most themeparks - possibly even better, but who knows, since not a single AAA sandbox MMO has been made, since WoW - but the idea that such a game couldn't even be popular at all just strikes me as absurd.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Quite a sad and heartfelt statement from Masthead, and so poignant too. Its so sad to see these daring devs fall flat on their ass, even if they had no right charging money for their 'product'. Despite how buggy Earthrise was, i spent a good month having actual FUN in the game with my guild, working towards basic goals and EXPLORING an open sandbox world. I cannot name one other MMO in the last 5 years i spent more than a month playing. So, another one bites the dust, and many more to come so long as this market is dominated by 13 year old turds and their parents credit cards (although that isn't fair, i was about 13 when i fell in love with my first sandbox RPG).
Ah that is too bad. . I was sort of hoping to hear some good things about Earthrise. . it was one that had a lot of elements that I love. The implementation didn't seem right though. Sad to see.
What kind of numbers could I possibly have? Just an overwhelming amount of evidence, from people talking on forums, to the popularity of singleplayer sandbox games. It might be debatable exactly how well they'd do, compared to most themeparks - possibly even better, but who knows, since not a single AAA sandbox MMO has been made, since WoW - but the idea that such a game couldn't even be popular at all just strikes me as absurd.
LOL .. so you have nothing but guesses. Forums? That represents a very small minority of the market.
Until a) there is a marketing report (like those from newzoo) which quantities the numbers, or b) a successful sandbox games selling millions, it is just a lot of empty talk.
If you look at the past, UO .. first sandbox, wasn't that successful and got blew away in terms of sub the first PvE content based game came along (EQ). Eve has been there for year without breaking even 400k subs.
There is NO evidence that a AAA sandbox game will sell millions.
Hey, but look at the bright side.. We still have Rift, SWTOR, EQ2, LoTRO and WoW to play!!!
Who needs indie when you've got heavily industrialized standardized profit powerhouses like those??
SWTOR -- Bad MMO and it's bright spot of 'stories' was a joke. When I was in college writing garbage like that in English 280 (Creative Writing) I never got better than a B on the story... Sure, for an accounting major a B was an accomplishment... But for the supposed #1 story CRPG company in computer gaming... (Which is complete BS as far as I'm concerned.) These stories were derritivie, palagerized, MacGuffin/Trope/Cliche'd crap...
And, uUnlike college, the market generaly doesn't give extra credit and grades with their feet...
RIft -- Played two days. Level 9. Getting bored.
EQ2 -- Played that for about two months between my LOTRO burn-out and my joining SWTOR. Having played it for a long-time, a long-time ago... I enjoyed my stay, but I just can't do it again...
LOTRO -- Burned out after 2 years. Tried to go back after SWTOR failure. Just couldn't do it...
WoW -- Honestly, I may be that desperate... I've always not wanted to play WoW for various reasons... But I'm getting desperate for a game that has MMO features like crafting, a robust community, variety, etc. and so far nothing has done that since LOTRO.
What kind of numbers could I possibly have? Just an overwhelming amount of evidence, from people talking on forums, to the popularity of singleplayer sandbox games. It might be debatable exactly how well they'd do, compared to most themeparks - possibly even better, but who knows, since not a single AAA sandbox MMO has been made, since WoW - but the idea that such a game couldn't even be popular at all just strikes me as absurd.
One has to just look at current state of sandboxes..it is not even about assumptions. The proof is in the pudding you just refuse to see it. How many more failed sandboxes you need before you accept the obvious truth?
You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty -- Mahatma Gandhi
As an early BETA tester for Earthrise me and additional testers put forth our opinion on the state of the game - abysmal. The developers refused to listen, plowed ahead with an OB orgy only to showcase to the world how unplayable their 'revolutionary' title was. Pressure from the limited investers they had played a massive part in it's downfall.
The graphics and environment in earthrise were truly amazing, too bad the client was a piece of crap. Horrible framerate issues, lagging out as soon as anyone starts shooting, insane network usage of up to 50kb/s (this isn't arma2!) and constant disconnects and crashes. The game was actually very straightforward in terms of game mechanics, so they actually did the right thing to try and keep it simple to develop. Its just to bad their engine and networking was so abysmal.
I also thought the gameworld was amazing. But yeah, it ran like crap. Not only that, but I never really saw it as a sandbox. Just a very pretty shooter with some grind.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Bulgarian developer Masthead Studios announced earlier today that they're shutting down the servers for their post-apocalyptic sandbox MMO Earthrise.
"One year after the launch of the game, we have decided to stop the Earthrise servers. Earthrise was released too early and did not meet the expectations of its fans" said Atanas Atanasov, Director of Masthead Studios. "We did our best to revive the game in 2011, but the time was not enough to keep up with the user requirements. There is a huge interest in high quality open world sandbox MMORPGs, unfortunately the big publishers do not show any interest in the genre. It is unfortunate that low budget companies like ours are trying to bring innovativeness in the already saturated MMO market. I hope that one day an independent studio will be able to release the long anticipated open world sandbox MMO, which everyone is talking about, but no one is making. We tried, but did not succeed. We would like to apologize to those who were disappointed from Earthrise and to thank everyone who supported us during the years."
The studio does mention that the planned free-to-play version for this year may still launch if any investor interest is shown, but there has been no word on this yet.
Sad, but I tried to play ER several times, even bought the game, but it was impossible for me to play. The lag and FPS were atrocious. I dont think I even got out of the starter areas.
Hate to say it but its going to take a developer with $$$ like Blizzard to make a AAA Sandbox game. OR, a developer is going to have to take CCPs approach, start small and build a following over many years.
The reason why in the last 8 years no one can seem to make a good sandbox game is because they have no idea what there doing.
I think that statement is close.
I would make it more specific by saying:
The reason no one has made a good sandbox is because they fail to focus on the basics
This excludes EvE, since...well that game is a diffrent breed..less RPG more strategy.
When we see sandbox after sandbox fail...as we have for the last 8 years...its not because they just didnt know how to do the sandbox part...its becasue they focus on sandbox features and completely ignore or botch the basic game mechanics. Running/jumping/fighting basic systems...sability of the client...latency....all these things kill otherwise great games.
How many sandboxes launched with a dream list of features and a place holder combat system?
What killed Earthrise was that its basic function as a game failed. Everything related to fighting, exploring, and player interaction was not functional. The sandbox mechanics crafting and game rules were great, as was the lore and IP/setting.
People dont want a great crafting system, sandbox game rules, and a nice and interesting setting if the actual game they play inside this world is crap.
This is why Darkfall keeps on trucking...has the funds and ability to completely remake the game as a 2.0 sandbox. While the game is less sandbox as it is a combat and pvp game..it got the basics right. Your able to play the game and stuff works, its combat is fun....the problem with that game is that they got some of the sandbox mechanics wrong (mainly everyone can be the best of every roll and skill within one fight) as well as some mechanical harshness that drive new players away.
See what was diffrent between earthrise, mortal online, xyson, dawntide...ect and Darkfall. One game has a basic mechaics that worked and later fixed the ruleset and systems and even the world...the other games had the rule set, world, and sand but no functioning game within it...no combat that was entertaining...no basic game. One is doing fine (yes the pop is low by todays blockbuster themeparks standards)
So long rant short.....
Please for the love of god if your an indy developer....make the basics work before launch...combat/stability/latency. People will stay and support you if you give them a game to play while you try to get terraforming/layer housing/...whatever fluff people want in the game...
The big sandbox hit is going to come onto the scene with this...a working engin and combat system....its not going to start with a good rule set and a great vision with a place holder combat system and a unstable client that has latency issues.
There is no "BIG" sandbox audience its a niche market but one that can be profitable if done right the problem is developers release to early run out of money or expect to much. I'd love a sandbox fantasy MMO that was fun and stable but it doesnt exist and probably never will since big publishers see 1 thing money and that type of game wont bring the investors the big $ they want back from the investment.
Honestly I think one of blizzards new titles may very well be a sandbox MMO why ? Because they're not going to make a game that competes directly with WOW (theme park Fantasy MMO) Also they dont need as many investors since wow produces enough revenue to fund the development of almost any game.
There is no "BIG" sandbox audience its a niche market but one that can be profitable if done right the problem is developers release to early run out of money or expect to much. I'd love a sandbox fantasy MMO that was fun and stable but it doesnt exist and probably never will since big publishers see 1 thing money and that type of game wont bring the investors the big $ they want back from the investment.
Honestly I think one of blizzards new titles may very well be a sandbox MMO why ? Because they're not going to make a game that competes directly with WOW (theme park Fantasy MMO) Also they dont need as many investors since wow produces enough revenue to fund the development of almost any game.
Indie developers aim too high on technical aspects when creating sandbox games and MMOs. They shouldn't be afraid to use simplistic graphics if that means they can focus on having functional gameplay and making sure that runs decently on a variety of computers.
Bulgarian developer Masthead Studios announced earlier today that they're shutting down the servers for their post-apocalyptic sandbox MMO Earthrise.
"There is a huge interest in high quality open world sandbox MMORPGs, unfortunately the big publishers do not show any interest in the genre."
Huge interest, really?
If you can't treat your game as a business, you do not deserve to be on the market.
There is enough interest in an open world sandbox,
The recent example of an "almost-but-not quite" successful sandbox MMO is Perpetuum Online. It was fun for a little while. But the deal breaker for me, wasn't even about the game, I quit because the developers had given a clearly large and unfair ingame headstart to a particular player corp who used it to establish undeniable and unquestionable control. I refused to pay them money to BE somene else's content.
PO came out of the gate running and looking good. It had gotten a lot of people to try it. The word on the street was positive. Things looked good. People say it lost it's momentum because "Everyone went back to EVE" but I don't think that's it. The devs took too long to release early and needed content combined with the scandal that the devs were giving preferential treatment to a particular player corp. That corp had an unfair head start advantage that few others had. You couldn't beat them so if you joined them, you had to agree to play their game when they told you, go where they told you to go, do what they told you to do, they told you what equipment you could use, how to build your toon........Really???? KTHXBAI!!!
Either with or against them, the feeling was that I was paying to BE someone else's contnet. That's why it didn't make it big.
Sadly, that part didn't have to happen. I think the devs were selfish, but not fo rthe money, they wanted to dominate in their own game. People won't pay to be dominated......well, not in an MMO anyway.
I think the comment about not knowing what they are doing is spot on.
Earthrise failed because it wasn't finished. Not because there is a lack of interest in sandboxes
Yeah it sucks that Earthrise is closing down but I'm not surprised really. I bought the game hoping for something fresh. I didn't mind it was buggy. I didn'g get past the first free month. But it just wasn't fun to play, plain and simple.
Indie developers aim too high on technical aspects when creating sandbox games and MMOs. They shouldn't be afraid to use simplistic graphics if that means they can focus on having functional gameplay and making sure that runs decently on a variety of computers.
People say that, but there are several really well done sandboxes that have poor graphics. Trust me people say they want gameplay, but they really want shiny graphics.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Comments
No one said they were against it. However, if you have numbers to support such a statement, then definitely share them because no one else seems willing to.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And to think, these guys were contracted to help make the Interplay Fallout MMO....
i predicted this when the game was 1 month out, i was right, haha
So What Now?
What kind of numbers could I possibly have? Just an overwhelming amount of evidence, from people talking on forums, to the popularity of singleplayer sandbox games. It might be debatable exactly how well they'd do, compared to most themeparks - possibly even better, but who knows, since not a single AAA sandbox MMO has been made, since WoW - but the idea that such a game couldn't even be popular at all just strikes me as absurd.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Quite a sad and heartfelt statement from Masthead, and so poignant too. Its so sad to see these daring devs fall flat on their ass, even if they had no right charging money for their 'product'. Despite how buggy Earthrise was, i spent a good month having actual FUN in the game with my guild, working towards basic goals and EXPLORING an open sandbox world. I cannot name one other MMO in the last 5 years i spent more than a month playing. So, another one bites the dust, and many more to come so long as this market is dominated by 13 year old turds and their parents credit cards (although that isn't fair, i was about 13 when i fell in love with my first sandbox RPG).
Ah that is too bad. . I was sort of hoping to hear some good things about Earthrise. . it was one that had a lot of elements that I love. The implementation didn't seem right though. Sad to see.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
LOL .. so you have nothing but guesses. Forums? That represents a very small minority of the market.
Until a) there is a marketing report (like those from newzoo) which quantities the numbers, or b) a successful sandbox games selling millions, it is just a lot of empty talk.
If you look at the past, UO .. first sandbox, wasn't that successful and got blew away in terms of sub the first PvE content based game came along (EQ). Eve has been there for year without breaking even 400k subs.
There is NO evidence that a AAA sandbox game will sell millions.
SWTOR -- Bad MMO and it's bright spot of 'stories' was a joke. When I was in college writing garbage like that in English 280 (Creative Writing) I never got better than a B on the story... Sure, for an accounting major a B was an accomplishment... But for the supposed #1 story CRPG company in computer gaming... (Which is complete BS as far as I'm concerned.) These stories were derritivie, palagerized, MacGuffin/Trope/Cliche'd crap...
And, uUnlike college, the market generaly doesn't give extra credit and grades with their feet...
RIft -- Played two days. Level 9. Getting bored.
EQ2 -- Played that for about two months between my LOTRO burn-out and my joining SWTOR. Having played it for a long-time, a long-time ago... I enjoyed my stay, but I just can't do it again...
LOTRO -- Burned out after 2 years. Tried to go back after SWTOR failure. Just couldn't do it...
WoW -- Honestly, I may be that desperate... I've always not wanted to play WoW for various reasons... But I'm getting desperate for a game that has MMO features like crafting, a robust community, variety, etc. and so far nothing has done that since LOTRO.
A shame really. I remember when it was very anticipated by many including me. It didn't live up to expectations, but here's looking at you kid.
I self identify as a monkey.
One has to just look at current state of sandboxes..it is not even about assumptions. The proof is in the pudding you just refuse to see it. How many more failed sandboxes you need before you accept the obvious truth?
You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty -- Mahatma Gandhi
Can't say I'm surprised in the slightest.
As an early BETA tester for Earthrise me and additional testers put forth our opinion on the state of the game - abysmal. The developers refused to listen, plowed ahead with an OB orgy only to showcase to the world how unplayable their 'revolutionary' title was. Pressure from the limited investers they had played a massive part in it's downfall.
The graphics and environment in earthrise were truly amazing, too bad the client was a piece of crap. Horrible framerate issues, lagging out as soon as anyone starts shooting, insane network usage of up to 50kb/s (this isn't arma2!) and constant disconnects and crashes. The game was actually very straightforward in terms of game mechanics, so they actually did the right thing to try and keep it simple to develop. Its just to bad their engine and networking was so abysmal.
I also thought the gameworld was amazing. But yeah, it ran like crap. Not only that, but I never really saw it as a sandbox. Just a very pretty shooter with some grind.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
This is the age of E-Sports and mmoVideo Games. The genre started with excellence, EQ1, Dark Age of Camelot, Asheron's Call, etc. And here we are.
Not really surprising but always hurts to see a game shut down, like the fact Masthead was frank about the situation though.
Sad, but I tried to play ER several times, even bought the game, but it was impossible for me to play. The lag and FPS were atrocious. I dont think I even got out of the starter areas.
Hate to say it but its going to take a developer with $$$ like Blizzard to make a AAA Sandbox game. OR, a developer is going to have to take CCPs approach, start small and build a following over many years.
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
Already?
"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence
I think that statement is close.
I would make it more specific by saying:
The reason no one has made a good sandbox is because they fail to focus on the basics
This excludes EvE, since...well that game is a diffrent breed..less RPG more strategy.
When we see sandbox after sandbox fail...as we have for the last 8 years...its not because they just didnt know how to do the sandbox part...its becasue they focus on sandbox features and completely ignore or botch the basic game mechanics. Running/jumping/fighting basic systems...sability of the client...latency....all these things kill otherwise great games.
How many sandboxes launched with a dream list of features and a place holder combat system?
What killed Earthrise was that its basic function as a game failed. Everything related to fighting, exploring, and player interaction was not functional. The sandbox mechanics crafting and game rules were great, as was the lore and IP/setting.
People dont want a great crafting system, sandbox game rules, and a nice and interesting setting if the actual game they play inside this world is crap.
This is why Darkfall keeps on trucking...has the funds and ability to completely remake the game as a 2.0 sandbox. While the game is less sandbox as it is a combat and pvp game..it got the basics right. Your able to play the game and stuff works, its combat is fun....the problem with that game is that they got some of the sandbox mechanics wrong (mainly everyone can be the best of every roll and skill within one fight) as well as some mechanical harshness that drive new players away.
See what was diffrent between earthrise, mortal online, xyson, dawntide...ect and Darkfall. One game has a basic mechaics that worked and later fixed the ruleset and systems and even the world...the other games had the rule set, world, and sand but no functioning game within it...no combat that was entertaining...no basic game. One is doing fine (yes the pop is low by todays blockbuster themeparks standards)
So long rant short.....
Please for the love of god if your an indy developer....make the basics work before launch...combat/stability/latency. People will stay and support you if you give them a game to play while you try to get terraforming/layer housing/...whatever fluff people want in the game...
The big sandbox hit is going to come onto the scene with this...a working engin and combat system....its not going to start with a good rule set and a great vision with a place holder combat system and a unstable client that has latency issues.
There is no "BIG" sandbox audience its a niche market but one that can be profitable if done right the problem is developers release to early run out of money or expect to much. I'd love a sandbox fantasy MMO that was fun and stable but it doesnt exist and probably never will since big publishers see 1 thing money and that type of game wont bring the investors the big $ they want back from the investment.
Honestly I think one of blizzards new titles may very well be a sandbox MMO why ? Because they're not going to make a game that competes directly with WOW (theme park Fantasy MMO) Also they dont need as many investors since wow produces enough revenue to fund the development of almost any game.
Roflmao
Indie developers aim too high on technical aspects when creating sandbox games and MMOs. They shouldn't be afraid to use simplistic graphics if that means they can focus on having functional gameplay and making sure that runs decently on a variety of computers.
There is enough interest in an open world sandbox,
The recent example of an "almost-but-not quite" successful sandbox MMO is Perpetuum Online. It was fun for a little while. But the deal breaker for me, wasn't even about the game, I quit because the developers had given a clearly large and unfair ingame headstart to a particular player corp who used it to establish undeniable and unquestionable control. I refused to pay them money to BE somene else's content.
PO came out of the gate running and looking good. It had gotten a lot of people to try it. The word on the street was positive. Things looked good. People say it lost it's momentum because "Everyone went back to EVE" but I don't think that's it. The devs took too long to release early and needed content combined with the scandal that the devs were giving preferential treatment to a particular player corp. That corp had an unfair head start advantage that few others had. You couldn't beat them so if you joined them, you had to agree to play their game when they told you, go where they told you to go, do what they told you to do, they told you what equipment you could use, how to build your toon........Really???? KTHXBAI!!!
Either with or against them, the feeling was that I was paying to BE someone else's contnet. That's why it didn't make it big.
Sadly, that part didn't have to happen. I think the devs were selfish, but not fo rthe money, they wanted to dominate in their own game. People won't pay to be dominated......well, not in an MMO anyway.
I think the comment about not knowing what they are doing is spot on.
Earthrise failed because it wasn't finished. Not because there is a lack of interest in sandboxes
Yeah it sucks that Earthrise is closing down but I'm not surprised really. I bought the game hoping for something fresh. I didn't mind it was buggy. I didn'g get past the first free month. But it just wasn't fun to play, plain and simple.
People say that, but there are several really well done sandboxes that have poor graphics. Trust me people say they want gameplay, but they really want shiny graphics.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"