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Upcoming MMOs and the state of role-playing
DustyBallz
Member Posts: 152
I am a role-player. I've been called 'RP nazi' before. I don't mind the names. I like my style of game play, and I know there are many others that care a lot for the role-playability of MMORPGs.
Role-playing, talking IC (in character), not talking OOC (out of character) in general /say. Acting as if your character would act. Play the game as if the game world and the characters are real. Of course it's not real, but role-players know what I'm talking about.
Dungeons & Dragons Online, as far as I understand, is like Guild Wars, a big city (meeting place) and instanced content. How the heck is any role-playing going to happen when everyone's just trying to get a group to take into a dungeon? I don't think it's going to be very RP-centric, like Guild Wars also isn't. Comments and opinions appreciated.
Dark and Light looks to be a better project as far as role-playing goes. One downside is they will have one server, like EVE Online has. So, all the 1337s and powergamers (read: non role-players) will be right there next to you and I and anyone else wanting to enjoy a RPG. You know, RPG = role-playing game. Comments and opinions appreciated.
Older games like Star Wars Galaxies.... What can i say about SWG? It sucks now. It used to be a very nice game as far as role-playability went, but now it's centered around combat level. Medics have to be in combat to earn any medical xp now. Entertainers are mostly useless now. SOE nerfs the hell out of their games, but that's a different subject. Looking at old Windspire Entertainment vidoes from SWG shows how well the RP worked in SWG. I know, I know, a video doesn't tell the real story, but watch one of the videos, Fett's Vette. Great stuff, and is somewhat inspiring.
Trials of Ascension (www.shadowpool.com) will have no friends list, you won't be able to send /tells, the only way to communicate is in general /say, so ALL talk is supposed to be strictly IC. This game has been in development for quite some time, and no release date is anticipated yet. By the way, ToA will also feature perma-death! Can you imaging PKers, 1337s, and the like playing ToA? It definately has it's challenges in the market once it's released, but I look forward to it. Comments and opinions appreciated.
So, what do you think of the current and upcoming MMORPG market and role-playing's part in it? Any comments, opinions, and pertinent views are greatly appreciated.
MMORPG -- Where's the RP?
Comments
Ok, I see I'm the only role-player that posts on MMORPG.com. I should have known no one else has the mentality to role-play. Why did I even post this thread? 13 year olds don't know how to role-play. Sorry I wasted my time. This site tells a big story, and that story is role-players have gone elsewhere. The saddest part is abviously none of the MMORPG.com staff are role-players either, hence no response from any of them. This site is about massively multiplayer online role-playing games, yes? It looks to be better to discuss the FPS market. Look at what is posted here. Ask yourself if MMORPG.com really has any MMORPG fans, or just kids looking for a game to waste their time playing, rather than doing any chores or svhoolwork.
We all have an opinion, and mine is quite obvious, wouldn't you say.
MMORPG -- Where's the RP?
I am a firm believer in the theory that everyone who is playing any MMOG is roleplaying. Every single one of them, even the guys discussing their computer hardware and the latest movie.
What I find absurd are people who feel the need and the right to dictate the terms of a roleplay experience, whether by diction or action.
MMORPG -- Where's the RP?
Everyone who is playing an MMORPG is not, by definition, automatically roleplaying. Anyone who logs into a fantasy game and creates a character who then spends their time running around talking in L33t-speak is not roleplaying. To roleplay a character means getting into the character, and no Elf or dwarf in World of Warcraft or Everquest ever spoke about "pWNing!" someone or any other real-world bilge-speak.
Roleplaying is what's missing from most of the MMORPG's out there. People logging in to just grab a group and go fight are missing the roleplaying part. Just because you're doing the conventions (levelling, have stats that change, skills that change) doesn't mean you're roleplaying anything. Last time: roleplaying = playing a role = playing a role within the context of the fantasy world you're in. That doesn't mean "hey, what role are you? Oh, you're the tank". Role as in, "Good day, sir. My name is Jeeves, I'm the butler here at Landlow manor. Might I take your coat?" Not role as in "Dude, I'm the tank. Let's rock!" One uses imagination and creates a role, a persona; the other is just mechanics and reduces gaming to the equivalent of Unreal Tournament in a different setting.
Lack of RP, coupled with a lack of focus on making worlds IMMERSIVE (aka suspension of disbelief, the feeling that you're in a gameworld where your actions count for something and you can "feel" the world around you is vibrant and "real"), are the two biggest flaws in MMORPGs.
This is true.
This is why you never see game companies police their rp servers apart from inappropriate names, because everyone has a different idea of what roleplaying means.
Dusty, just because you roleplay a certain way does not mean others wish to rp in that same manner. Nice and mature generalisation you made about the users of this site, by the way.
MMORPG -- Where's the RP?
You, sir, are precisely the kind of person I speak of.
You are most definitely entitled to your opinion, but I submit to you that you are precisely the reason most people scoff at roleplaying in MMOGs. Your narrow, egocentric attitude precludes any diversity of experience.
So enjoy your abused sense of violated shelter.
Roma Victor is big on RP, it's not launched yet but they have a very active roleplaying forum - check it out.
http://www.roma-victor.com/community
-Marca
Wow, I don't think I've ever met a fellow role player that wasn't really a nice person before..
Get that chip out of your shoulder. Has it occured to anyone this could just be trolling? I mean, he's obviously Soo mature, naming himself dustyballz. 
---------------------------------------
-Anarchyart
All you friggin suburban white kid wannabe poobutts that are in love with G-Unit are sad and pathetic. Find your own identity
Insulting people simply because they may not be roleplayers does not sound very mature to me, but maybe that's just me.
I think perhaps you expect too much out of these types of games. Due to the very nature of these games (anyone and everyone can play, whether they want to rp or not), and the fact that for the most part, MMOs are very static (you can't really change anything or make a lasting difference), you're just not going to find satisfying rp in this medium like you would a PnP game.
For me, I always join an rp server if I can help it. The communtities are usually more mature, and I'm always down for some casual roleplaying. However, I don't get very hardcore or nitpicky about the roleplay that goes on around me, because I already understand that I'm just not going to see hardcore RP on a regular basis with these types of games. For hardcore rp, I have my PnP gaming group, and several awesome games to choose from (Over The Edge FTW).
In my opinion, MMOs are a fairly poor substitute for PnP level roleplaying, and anyone actively expecting it just because a game has an rp server is sure to be disappointed.
I think there is a vicious circle for me: I come to the game not from it's start , so I meet other people with
higher lvls and the same lvls that speak not in RP style.I'm not an idiot,so if smb adresses to me "Hey dude",I will not talk to him like "Yes,sir" (but I have tried to do so)That's not about RP servers,I think I don't
know role good enough to play there.
Lebbb
Irth Online = Realistic character development and in release, hardcore RP servers
http://www.irthonline.com/hcrpgpolicies.aspx
Roleplay is how you deal with others, not how they deal with you. If you want to roleplay fine, but don't expect it to be forced on/accepted by others. To illustrate this point, how many male MMO gamers RP women? I feel RP is best illustrated through actions rather than words - see the Amarr vs Minmatar RP in Eve f.ex.
---sig---
PvE in general is pretty lame, if you think long and hard about it. You are spending your time beating a severely gimped AI that would lose to a well trained monkey. Best not to think too long and hard why you are wasting time playing games in general actually...
QFE.
The onus is on you to create your environment, not the other way around.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I think part of the real issue is that there are different levels of RPing. The most intensive one being the people that demand for everyone to talk in character, act in character 24/7 when they are logged into the game world. We have tossed around the Idea of making a RP Server in Age of Darkness but I think the largest issue comes from how do you police such a server? We have also tossed around the idea of letting RP players mark themselves in game with maybe a RP flag or something to that effect so it becomes a easier process to find other RPers like yourself.
What is everyones take / idea on a good RP system? Do you require all players to talk in character 24/7? What kind of in game mechanics would help RPers RP?
How would you police an RP server? The problem is you can't, really. A suggestion I have heard many an RPer make is to let select members of the community police the server on a voluntary basis. While this sounds good in theory, it has problems as well, simply because these individuals will police RP violations according to what they consider RP. Now while they may have noble intentions on how RP should be carried out on the server, the method is ultimately flawed because everyone has a diferent idea of what roleplaying is.
A whole lot of trouble can be stirred up by removing someone from a game or server because their idea of RP is less casual than what someone else thinks is appropriate, etc. The problem with roleplaying is that it is not something that is definite. There are no set rules as to what clearly defines roleplaying.
To be able to fully roleplay (as can best be done in a good PnP game with a quality GM), the computer game must present enough variety (and adequate game mechanisms) for the players to do so. Most (if not all) MMORPGs to date have not done so. Some are slowly trying to add some "roleplay" mechanisms via emotes (and that IS a start) but that is far from enough. The problem is that virtually all MMORPGs to date present extremely limited in game functions that simulate real world options. Let me give an example what is missing and hopefully you will get the idea.
First - here is what MOST MMORPGs give us. We can kill things - that is it. Yes, they let us kill with a sword or bow or axe or magic - but killing is killing. I agree that killing is one "role" to play - but virtually every game out there gives us only that single role. Further even games that provide "other" things (such as crafting) to do virtually always in one way or another link it to your advancement in "killing" so one CANNOT truly roleplay a bowyer (for example) because the games typically require that one advances in killing levels to be able to "learn" advanced bowyer skills.
Now - here is what (in a very general manner) is what is needed for a game to TRULY be roleplayable (remember it MUST be roleplayable by a wide variety of player mentalities). My PC should be able to be a lumberjack, a bowyer, a cook, a chef, a street vendor, a musician, a politician, a banker, etc, etc, etc. More importantly, these must be tied to the game mechanics (just as sword fighting is in most games) through skills, needed equipment, quests, jobs, advancement, wealth, etc.
Until a game provides the player with the ability to play these different roles, we won't be able to roleplay well at all.
Here is a brief in game like description of what is possible if the game were made with true roleplay in mind. I do know this sort of game will be far more difficult to program - but that is not the point. Remember I suggest there must be in game mechanics to simulate and assist with all of this (animations for various actions, etc.).
You enter the game and find you are hungry. At this point you have several options (as one does in real life) to satisfy this hunger (or ignore it) - with real in game ramifications of each choice, but you don't have any prepared food in your pack so you decide to go to an Inn in town. As you have been out adventuring, you break camp and head to the nearest town. As you enter town a guard stops you (the game should provide the ability for this to be a default NPC or a PC who has chosen to take the place of the NPC today) and tells you that town regulations require that you relenquish your sword (your only primary weapon) as weapons are not allowed in town (you can choose to do so or leave or attempt to continue). Wisely, you choose to relenquish your weapon and the guard gives you a chit for it.
You ask an NPC (or PC) to find your way to an eating establishment (the NPC will direct you in some in game manner). At the door you find a greeter (it could be an NPC or PC depending on whether anybody is choosing to "roleplay" door greeter today). Depending on how long you have been on the road without a bath, the greeter (NPC for sure) is likely to make some comment (depending on the quality level of the establishment in this town) and may or may not strongly suggest a bath first (again more opportunity for roleplay or not depending on one's play style). Assuming you simply take a seat (let us assume you ARE dirty), you can yell at a serving wench (or the male equivalent
) and that NPC or PC (again depending on if anybody is roleplaying the wench today) will come and take an order (this can be as complex or simple as roleplay dictates). Note also that the NPC (or PC) is likely to react somewhat differently to you depending on how filthy you are - up to the point of making rude comments - other Inn patrons may even take true offense and start a fistfight. There will be animations for taking the order, bringing the food and you eating the food. If it is the proper time of day, there may be "live" entertainment in the Inn (again either provided by default NPC or PCs who have taken over the NPC duties). And the game continues ...
Note that what I envision (as you can see) is a system which allows for PCs to take over the roles of the NPCs (perhaps all perhaps not based on balance issues). The key here is that there are MANY required "roles" in the game just as there are in real life - cooks, bakers, bowyers, barkeeps, etc. - like any good computer game, these will be by default NPCs but the game mechanics allow for a PC to take the role. Now (obviously) other systems must be in place as well - skills for all of these (yes, the game must be skill based not level). But the key here is that (as a good roleplay game should be) one CAN choose to roleplay a fighter or a cook - using skills appropriate to the craft AND roleplay that role as much or as little as one chooses. Now until we have a game that provides for many of these skills and roles (along with required animations, actions, etc.) there won't be much roleplay.
As a note, yes, the other factor is the willingness of players to play these roles and stay in character (at least mostly). No, it cannot be policed - except via the mechanism of separate server for "hardcore" roleplayers and even then it will be difficult at best. However, I am convinced that when a game truly provides a wide variety of in game mechanisms and roles for players - each fun to do and each leading somewhere (increased skills, new skills, etc.) then there WILL be players who will find it fun and WILL do it.
Comments and/or discussion is most welcome. I have been working on this game vision for some years now (and no, I am not an entrepreneur with any hope of producing a game such as this
). Please understand that the entire game vision cannot be truly understood with the little bit I have provided - these features CANNOT simply be stuck into a current EQ style game. The entire game will of necessity be sizeably different in overall game mechanics, rules, etc. to make this work.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
Sounds like you are talking about what Roma Victor is doing or what UO used to do.
http://aerirprown.blogspot.com/
While I do agree with the above in regards on how to create a true role-play friendly game. But from a purely design standpoint and my point of view is that a lot of roles the player(s) could take over simply would not seem fun, at least to me anyways. I couldnt think of someone that would want to stand around in an Inn and greet people as it could possibly be several hours between people entering and leaving the bar. I guess I just fail to see how you could make such a job interesting. But the idea as whole is very interesting.
I do know within the Age of Darkness design we do not require* people to fight to reach the level cap. It is entirely possible to do nothing but trade skills and reach this cap. There is even a all together different dynamic questing system designed just for the trade skills in the game. We are trying to remove the grinding that most games seem to encourage by simply making it both fun and rewarding to do quests. The ultimate goal would be that by just doing quests you could reach the level cap. In honestly we shouldnt even call it a leveling system simply because leveling isnt what determines the power of ones character. Simply how developed the character is. The plan is to use a free flowing skills system in that xp you gain (from whatever the means is rather it be killing a monster or crafting a item or completing a quest) you are allowed to assign that xp to any of your characters learned skills. The system is sort of inspired by AC2 but a lot more advanced and player customization friendly.
While I do not know if AoD would cater to a Hard Core Role-player or not. But I can say we do encourage the Role-players to Role-play in the game. Both through the way NPCs remember your actions. Through your actions meaning something within the game world. And just the ability we give players to control the game world. Ever dreamed of being a King over NPCs and PCs. Being able to build a city up as you see fit and as the populace asks. That is the type of features we will have within AoD.
I would however defiantly like to see other games jump onto the Role-playing bandwagon and try to move away from the leveling and grinding by offering alternatives. Dont design your game solely around the idea of killing monsters and forcing people to grind to do so. Instead design your game around the story and build upon the story within your game. Make it so players will want to be apart of the story and can impact it instead of making everyone feel like just another Joe within the game world.
UO was the closest but FAR from what I am talking about - but yes. As far as Roma Victor is concerned I will wait and see. I don't know about you, but I have been there and done that with some many games that "promised" and never came close to delivering - I don't hold my breath any more
.
The overall key to a high quality, roleplayable MMORPG is that it MUST simulate in as detailed a manner as is feasible with today's technologies the wide diversity of real world systems. It is the wide diversity in real world that is missing. Diversity in actions, skills, adventuring opportunities, jobs, PC to PC interactions, etc. There is no game that I am aware of (short of the old UO) that even comes close to even attempting to provide diversity and flexibility.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
I understand your difficulty - but let me give you something to think about. Do you (in real life) enjoy collecting butterflies? I suspect not (unless I happen to coincidentally be discussing with one of those types
). However, I hope (intellectually speaking) you do understand that there are thousands if not millions of people out there who do enjoy it (I personally am not one of them). The key is that I WANT the ability to collect butterflies in the game - NOT because I anticipate doing it, but because it will add diversity AND I KNOW that there WILL be players who DO enjoy it - and the game must cater to as many player types as possible. Further (on the topic of collecting), the game MUST provide the mechanics necessary for making collections (and displaying them) for virtually every item in the game. Why? Simply because MANY, MANY, MANY people enjoy collecting and displaying things. Why? I have no clue because I am not a collector of things - but I KNOW that many, many people are. So if the game had collecting (and skills associated with finding, identifying, naming, labeling, etc.) "things", players would have more things to do besides just killing.
Further (again if the game is properly done), collecting (as just ONE thing added to the game) suddenly provides players with a REASON to hunt and kill. Imagine the collectors and the players who like to kill having common goals now - the killer wants to kill all sorts of mammals and the collector wants to collect all sorts of mammal bones! What great fun for all sorts of players AND suddenly all sorts of roleplay possibilities - just by adding detail item parts in game and the ability to collect AND display these collections.
And so it is with roles to play. First, default NPCs for all roles is mandatory - for the very reason (and others) you mentioned - these roles must be in game at all times and you are correct in that some roles will not be played by players regularly. However, the point I am making is that there are MANY, MANY diverse people in the world who find "fun" in diverse ways - especially roleplayers. Further (and most importantly) when one has this wide diversity of possible roles to play (and the game mechanisms to make them different from simply killing), I suspect that players WILL do them.
One more note (on the subject of my original example of the Inn). The reason you (and likely almost everybody else) cannot imagine anybody roleplaying the door greeter in an "empty" Inn is because in every other game so far there have been NO reasons to be in an Inn in the game. Again, as I have said, there MUST be real in game reasons for everything.
Imagine an Inn now more as it is in real world (a good one at least). There is LIVE entertainment (not junk, but quality music and perhaps dance). There are (or at least the possibility for) fist fights, guards arresting people, people being thrown out of the Inn for conduct or filth, or other reasons, real animations of eating, drinking (not just static characters with no animations), real reasons for food and drink, games to play (board, darts, poker, etc.) and many other things that can and do happen in REAL Inns - then people will have reasons to come to them (keeping them populated more often than not). Further understand that ALL jobs will have skills associated with them - and a renoun system in place so that a player CAN become known in that town and possibly in the "world" as the BEST chef in the land - or the BEST door bouncer in the land - etc, etc. Then players will have motivations to DO these "jobs" and motivations to roleplay them well - to gain notoriety, fame, wealth, etc. that come with doing these functions in real life.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
Hey JoeyNipps.
If possible sometime I would like to get in touch with you via email, irc or some form to discuss some of your ideas on skills and there role playability and possibly include them in AoD if that would be ok.