Yes but there are already countless PvE games. PVE players need to let the Sandbox PVP crowd have a game or 2 to themselves that remains that way.
I wish there was a good sandbox game for the PvE players. PvP players have Darkfall, MO, Eve.
Well really, EvE only really that has any polish and that isn't rife with cheating or bugs.
I agree - MO is too broken in MY opinion and darkfall was , as you say, not polished. I do admit to having done the trial and becoming fearful when I realized that a lvl 1 Goblin could kick my sorry ass.
I don't think PvP is necessary for a sandbox, so long as the PvE takes its place by being dangerous and dynamic.
I don't really get it, what is the point of having a sandbox if you aren't going to interact with other players on a meaningful level? When has PVE ever been dangerous or dynamic? Players make the best enemies and the main reason to play online games is for the added challenge of going up against a player rather than some dumb AI.
Since when is PvP the only meaningfull interaction between players. Players can make the best enemiesl, often they are annoying. Your right there hasn't really been any dangerous or dynamic pve. Other players are definately low on my list of requirements for added challenge though. Personally I think puzzles are more challenging than players.
Originally posted by ElderRat
Originally posted by sullivanj69
Originally posted by Cuathon
I don't think PvP is necessary for a sandbox, so long as the PvE takes its place by being dangerous and dynamic.
I don't really get it, what is the point of having a sandbox if you aren't going to interact with other players on a meaningful level? When has PVE ever been dangerous or dynamic? Players make the best enemies and the main reason to play online games is for the added challenge of going up against a player rather than some dumb AI.
I don't disagree, but there seems to be a sizable amount of today's players that want an easy game where there is no risk. I do not pretend to understand that but it is there.
No pvp does not mean no risk.
Originally posted by ElderRat
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by sullivanj69
Originally posted by Cuathon
I don't think PvP is necessary for a sandbox, so long as the PvE takes its place by being dangerous and dynamic.
I don't really get it, what is the point of having a sandbox if you aren't going to interact with other players on a meaningful level? When has PVE ever been dangerous or dynamic? Players make the best enemies and the main reason to play online games is for the added challenge of going up against a player rather than some dumb AI.
You can make PvE dangerous and dynamic. Just modern MMO players have no interest in that. They don't like to lose.
You can interact with other players on a meaningful level without trying to kill each other.
Yes but there are already countless PvE games. PVE players need to let the Sandbox PVP crowd have a game or 2 to themselves that remains that way.
I think there are more PvP sandbox games than Pve. So how about the Sandbox PvP crowd players give the sandbox PVe crowd another game or two?
sandbox pvp = Eve, darkfall, MO, Wurm?*. Haven and Heath?*, Runescape?*, UWO?* and coming out ArchAge and many more.
sandbox pve - ryzom (although very limited), Istaria, Atitd (although very limited)
* - means I haven't tried them but a simple search stated they were sandbox and pvp. I'll let you guys correct me if they are not.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I don't think PvP is necessary for a sandbox, so long as the PvE takes its place by being dangerous and dynamic.
I don't really get it, what is the point of having a sandbox if you aren't going to interact with other players on a meaningful level? When has PVE ever been dangerous or dynamic? Players make the best enemies and the main reason to play online games is for the added challenge of going up against a player rather than some dumb AI.
You can make PvE dangerous and dynamic. Just modern MMO players have no interest in that. They don't like to lose.
You can interact with other players on a meaningful level without trying to kill each other.
How? I'm not being facetious, I just don't see it. PvE can be fun and entertaining but I've never gotten a dangerous feel from it. All but the most minor death penalties have been taken off the table so what's left? You can only script a mob to do so many different things before the players learn the behavoir, after which it isn't challenging anymore. Not to mention, you can't overdo the AI code or you'd bring the server to its knees.
Group based PvP is a good blend of team work and fighting against intelligent and sometimes unpredictable opponents.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Originally posted by ElderRat I decided to start this thread because I have heard so much misifnormation on sandbox games. The major point I want to address is the PvP aspect. From what I hear you are forced to fight all other players all the time. Now, some games may be like this. My main experience with sandbox MMO's comes from Shadowbane and EVE. Shadowbane had a lot of PvP, and yet if you knew the game you could avoid it and do whatever you wanted to do... being aware that you could be attacked. I remember times when I would solo and as long as I was aware of my surroundings I was never ganked. People would try but one can run away. EVE... I mine in EVE and run 2 accoutns - 1 to mine and 1 to haul the ore back to station so that my miner can stay out in the belt uninterrupted. Basically i stay in i-sec where one has to be aware of suicide gankers. They can kill you but, mostly, they will lose their ship to Concord(the police). I do have a PvP alt that I only play when my corp has been war-dec'd. I went back to EVE a week or so ago and have only had no attempts to draw me into PvP... neither worked. Sandbox should have PvP but it is not necessairly the end all to sandbox. What it does do is add an aura of danger to even the most mundane of tasks... and that is why I like it. If EVE was a game where I could mine and never be attacked then it would be boring. For me the danger is the salt. Now I know many will post and say that i am wrong. All I have done is give my opinion, based on my actual in game sand box experience.
Ye i agree with you fully, i almost only play ffa mmo from the beginning, and you can usually avoid pvp most of the time if you are not a total noob. And this is where come the problem, avoiding unwanted pvp is in fact a skill by its own in those kind of games and is what make the difference between a "good" and bad player, not only the fact he can win those fight, but the fact he can somewhat choose them. The thing is, most noob are playing in high risk zones and they wonder why they die so fast, and are so much griefed, the kind of forum post "i get killed 3 times in a raw" is like a moto in those kind of game, where in fact 99% of the player know how to avoid this kind of stuff. For me pvp in a game is not that much interesting for the fight itself but all the elements around it, from survivability, risk aspect, the fact your acts really have some weight and so on. But naturally most people just look at how they easily died where they should try to figure out how to survive and keep away from risk.
I don't think PvP is necessary for a sandbox, so long as the PvE takes its place by being dangerous and dynamic.
I don't really get it, what is the point of having a sandbox if you aren't going to interact with other players on a meaningful level? When has PVE ever been dangerous or dynamic? Players make the best enemies and the main reason to play online games is for the added challenge of going up against a player rather than some dumb AI.
Since when is PvP the only meaningfull interaction between players. Players can make the best enemiesl, often they are annoying. Your right there hasn't really been any dangerous or dynamic pve. Other players are definately low on my list of requirements for added challenge though. Personally I think puzzles are more challenging than players.
Originally posted by ElderRat
Originally posted by sullivanj69
Originally posted by Cuathon
I don't think PvP is necessary for a sandbox, so long as the PvE takes its place by being dangerous and dynamic.
I don't really get it, what is the point of having a sandbox if you aren't going to interact with other players on a meaningful level? When has PVE ever been dangerous or dynamic? Players make the best enemies and the main reason to play online games is for the added challenge of going up against a player rather than some dumb AI.
I don't disagree, but there seems to be a sizable amount of today's players that want an easy game where there is no risk. I do not pretend to understand that but it is there.
No pvp does not mean no risk.
Originally posted by ElderRat
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by sullivanj69
Originally posted by Cuathon
I don't think PvP is necessary for a sandbox, so long as the PvE takes its place by being dangerous and dynamic.
I don't really get it, what is the point of having a sandbox if you aren't going to interact with other players on a meaningful level? When has PVE ever been dangerous or dynamic? Players make the best enemies and the main reason to play online games is for the added challenge of going up against a player rather than some dumb AI.
You can make PvE dangerous and dynamic. Just modern MMO players have no interest in that. They don't like to lose.
You can interact with other players on a meaningful level without trying to kill each other.
Yes but there are already countless PvE games. PVE players need to let the Sandbox PVP crowd have a game or 2 to themselves that remains that way.
I think there are more PvP sandbox games than Pve. So how about the Sandbox PvP crowd players give the sandbox PVe crowd another game or two?
sandbox pvp = Eve, darkfall, MO, Wurm?*. Haven and Heath?*, Runescape?*, UWO?* and coming out ArchAge and many more.
sandbox pve - ryzom (although very limited), Istaria, Atitd (although very limited)
* - means I haven't tried them but a simple search stated they were sandbox and pvp. I'll let you guys correct me if they are not.
maybe pve'rs should enjoy the themeparks made just for them and leave sandboxes alone. Just to counter your argument.
Yes but there are already countless PvE games. PVE players need to let the Sandbox PVP crowd have a game or 2 to themselves that remains that way.
I wish there was a good sandbox game for the PvE players. PvP players have Darkfall, MO, Eve.
a tale in the desert. And all the themepark games are made with you pve players in mind.
PvE players are not necesserily themepark players. I myself am a PvE player but can't stand themepark games. A Tale in the desert hasn't got even acceptable graphics, it has no PvE combat at all, and it resets in every 1 and half year. I wouldn"t even call it a real sandbox due to the limited options you have there and very linear gameplay.
So no, the difference is objectively large, not slight.
My experience is that pve involves much more than fighting mobs and many times is more focused on crafting. My experience is that pve is for those who cannot cope with the feeling of danger. That is ok, there are many themepark games for the pve player where there is no danger.
Dying again, again and again frustrates the player and he will go play another game.
I get more sense of danger out of harsh death penaltys. Having to recover a corpse and all my belongings, losing EXP because I play poorly, or having to travel for a long time to get back to my hunting grounds are far more rewarding for me then to be a guinea pig for some amoral, assclown whos only goal in life is to ruins the fun of others. PvP and PvE should always be a segregated play style, neither mix well.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
ILLUSION of danger is the salt. Dying again, again and again frustrates the player and he will go play another game.
I get more sense of danger out of harsh death penaltys. Having to recover a corpse and all my belongings, losing EXP because I play poorly, or having to travel for a long time to get back to my hunting grounds are far more rewarding for me then to be a guinea pig for some amoral, assclown whos only goal in life is to ruins the fun of others. PvP and PvE should always be a segregated play style, neither mix well.
I think the important thing is that the game designs PvP or/and PvE in from the start, the problem is when things get tacked on at the end. Look at TOR, all that effort creating a story driven RPG and tacking an MMO on to it in last minutes.
Yes but there are already countless PvE games. PVE players need to let the Sandbox PVP crowd have a game or 2 to themselves that remains that way.
I wish there was a good sandbox game for the PvE players. PvP players have Darkfall, MO, Eve.
a tale in the desert. And all the themepark games are made with you pve players in mind.
PvE players are not necesserily themepark players. I myself am a PvE player but can't stand themepark games. A Tale in the desert hasn't got even acceptable graphics, it has no PvE combat at all, and it resets in every 1 and half year. I wouldn"t even call it a real sandbox due to the limited options you have there and very linear gameplay.
Ok, I play EVE - sandbox pvp loot, etc. I am in essence a pve player because I mine and haul... very rarely do I play PvP. And I laugh when people say all EVE is about is PVP. It isn't. Just because a game has PvP doesn't mean that is all there is to it. Now I do admit my hulk has an tank fit to give me enough time to run away. I do admit that if my corp is war-dec'd I can get in a combat ship and help out. I am just saying that sandbox without the danger, without the possibility of another player attacking you is pretty boring and pointless. It is my opinion and I believe it is shared by a considerable number of players. I know it is popular to whine about lack of PvE or too much PvP but there are many games for you pve players. Go play LOTRO - they have nerfed it to the point that you can pretty much solo to the lvl cap. It is true PvE - no danger, no fun. As I have said - My opinion.
So no, the difference is objectively large, not slight.
My experience is that pve involves much more than fighting mobs and many times is more focused on crafting. My experience is that pve is for those who cannot cope with the feeling of danger. That is ok, there are many themepark games for the pve player where there is no danger.
This has to be a troll. You can't be serious. Crafting is NOT pve. Gathering IS NOT pve. PvE refers ONLY to fighting monsters. Player vs Monster=Player vs Environment. How the hell can crafting possibly have anything to do with fighting monsters? Crafting is a totally separate aspect of a game.
I want to play a game with dangerous PvE. With death penalties and very hard to solo content. Where a monster can just pop out of invis and massacre you if you don't have something to allow you to percieve it. Where monsters assault and totally destroy player made towns.
Now please explain to me in what themepark does the PvE involve hundred or more monster raids where they destroy player made towns that took people months or more to make? Hell in what themepark can I even have a game where all buildings are player built and/or possible to be destroyed?
Player vs player means fighting players. And player vs environment/monster means fighting npc monsters.
Neither of these has anything to do with crafting. If you don't think that PvE is separate from crafting you are WRONG. Period. This isn't an opinion. This is the literal definition of player vs environment. Fighting non player enemies. Combat.
Ok, I play EVE - sandbox pvp loot, etc. I am in essence a pve player because I mine and haul... very rarely do I play PvP. And I laugh when people say all EVE is about is PVP. It isn't. Just because a game has PvP doesn't mean that is all there is to it. Now I do admit my hulk has an tank fit to give me enough time to run away. I do admit that if my corp is war-dec'd I can get in a combat ship and help out. I am just saying that sandbox without the danger, without the possibility of another player attacking you is pretty boring and pointless. It is my opinion and I believe it is shared by a considerable number of players. I know it is popular to whine about lack of PvE or too much PvP but there are many games for you pve players. Go play LOTRO - they have nerfed it to the point that you can pretty much solo to the lvl cap. It is true PvE - no danger, no fun. As I have said - My opinion.
You seem to be confusing Themepark with PvE and Sandbox with PvP.
I don't think PvP is necessary for a sandbox, so long as the PvE takes its place by being dangerous and dynamic.
I don't really get it, what is the point of having a sandbox if you aren't going to interact with other players on a meaningful level? When has PVE ever been dangerous or dynamic? Players make the best enemies and the main reason to play online games is for the added challenge of going up against a player rather than some dumb AI.
Since when is PvP the only meaningfull interaction between players. Players can make the best enemiesl, often they are annoying. Your right there hasn't really been any dangerous or dynamic pve. Other players are definately low on my list of requirements for added challenge though. Personally I think puzzles are more challenging than players.
Originally posted by ElderRat
Originally posted by sullivanj69
Originally posted by Cuathon
I don't think PvP is necessary for a sandbox, so long as the PvE takes its place by being dangerous and dynamic.
I don't really get it, what is the point of having a sandbox if you aren't going to interact with other players on a meaningful level? When has PVE ever been dangerous or dynamic? Players make the best enemies and the main reason to play online games is for the added challenge of going up against a player rather than some dumb AI.
I don't disagree, but there seems to be a sizable amount of today's players that want an easy game where there is no risk. I do not pretend to understand that but it is there.
No pvp does not mean no risk.
Originally posted by ElderRat
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by sullivanj69
Originally posted by Cuathon
I don't think PvP is necessary for a sandbox, so long as the PvE takes its place by being dangerous and dynamic.
I don't really get it, what is the point of having a sandbox if you aren't going to interact with other players on a meaningful level? When has PVE ever been dangerous or dynamic? Players make the best enemies and the main reason to play online games is for the added challenge of going up against a player rather than some dumb AI.
You can make PvE dangerous and dynamic. Just modern MMO players have no interest in that. They don't like to lose.
You can interact with other players on a meaningful level without trying to kill each other.
Yes but there are already countless PvE games. PVE players need to let the Sandbox PVP crowd have a game or 2 to themselves that remains that way.
I think there are more PvP sandbox games than Pve. So how about the Sandbox PvP crowd players give the sandbox PVe crowd another game or two?
sandbox pvp = Eve, darkfall, MO, Wurm?*. Haven and Heath?*, Runescape?*, UWO?* and coming out ArchAge and many more.
sandbox pve - ryzom (although very limited), Istaria, Atitd (although very limited)
* - means I haven't tried them but a simple search stated they were sandbox and pvp. I'll let you guys correct me if they are not.
maybe pve'rs should enjoy the themeparks made just for them and leave sandboxes alone. Just to counter your argument.
why? Are you saying t hat sandbox should only be for pvp? Thats moronic. Why can't pvp'rs enjoy the themepark made for them.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
So no, the difference is objectively large, not slight.
My experience is that pve involves much more than fighting mobs and many times is more focused on crafting. My experience is that pve is for those who cannot cope with the feeling of danger. That is ok, there are many themepark games for the pve player where there is no danger.
This has to be a troll. You can't be serious. Crafting is NOT pve. Gathering IS NOT pve. PvE refers ONLY to fighting monsters. Player vs Monster=Player vs Environment. How the hell can crafting possibly have anything to do with fighting monsters? Crafting is a totally separate aspect of a game.
I want to play a game with dangerous PvE. With death penalties and very hard to solo content. Where a monster can just pop out of invis and massacre you if you don't have something to allow you to percieve it. Where monsters assault and totally destroy player made towns.
Now please explain to me in what themepark does the PvE involve hundred or more monster raids where they destroy player made towns that took people months or more to make? Hell in what themepark can I even have a game where all buildings are player built and/or possible to be destroyed?
Player vs player means fighting players. And player vs environment/monster means fighting npc monsters.
Neither of these has anything to do with crafting. If you don't think that PvE is separate from crafting you are WRONG. Period. This isn't an opinion. This is the literal definition of player vs environment. Fighting non player enemies. Combat.
so my opinion is invalidated by yours? That is more troll like. You have always - in every thread i have seen you post been pro pve and anti - pvp. There are other viewpoints that are just as valid as yours. I can argue your opinion. Just because I disagree with it does not make me a troll, just as your disagreement with mine does not make you one. Please hold the name calling.
I don't think PvP is necessary for a sandbox, so long as the PvE takes its place by being dangerous and dynamic.
I don't really get it, what is the point of having a sandbox if you aren't going to interact with other players on a meaningful level? When has PVE ever been dangerous or dynamic? Players make the best enemies and the main reason to play online games is for the added challenge of going up against a player rather than some dumb AI.
Since when is PvP the only meaningfull interaction between players. Players can make the best enemiesl, often they are annoying. Your right there hasn't really been any dangerous or dynamic pve. Other players are definately low on my list of requirements for added challenge though. Personally I think puzzles are more challenging than players.
Originally posted by ElderRat
Originally posted by sullivanj69
Originally posted by Cuathon
I don't think PvP is necessary for a sandbox, so long as the PvE takes its place by being dangerous and dynamic.
I don't really get it, what is the point of having a sandbox if you aren't going to interact with other players on a meaningful level? When has PVE ever been dangerous or dynamic? Players make the best enemies and the main reason to play online games is for the added challenge of going up against a player rather than some dumb AI.
I don't disagree, but there seems to be a sizable amount of today's players that want an easy game where there is no risk. I do not pretend to understand that but it is there.
No pvp does not mean no risk.
Originally posted by ElderRat
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by sullivanj69
Originally posted by Cuathon
I don't think PvP is necessary for a sandbox, so long as the PvE takes its place by being dangerous and dynamic.
I don't really get it, what is the point of having a sandbox if you aren't going to interact with other players on a meaningful level? When has PVE ever been dangerous or dynamic? Players make the best enemies and the main reason to play online games is for the added challenge of going up against a player rather than some dumb AI.
You can make PvE dangerous and dynamic. Just modern MMO players have no interest in that. They don't like to lose.
You can interact with other players on a meaningful level without trying to kill each other.
Yes but there are already countless PvE games. PVE players need to let the Sandbox PVP crowd have a game or 2 to themselves that remains that way.
I think there are more PvP sandbox games than Pve. So how about the Sandbox PvP crowd players give the sandbox PVe crowd another game or two?
sandbox pvp = Eve, darkfall, MO, Wurm?*. Haven and Heath?*, Runescape?*, UWO?* and coming out ArchAge and many more.
sandbox pve - ryzom (although very limited), Istaria, Atitd (although very limited)
* - means I haven't tried them but a simple search stated they were sandbox and pvp. I'll let you guys correct me if they are not.
maybe pve'rs should enjoy the themeparks made just for them and leave sandboxes alone. Just to counter your argument.
why? Are you saying t hat sandbox should only be for pvp? Thats moronic. Why can't pvp'rs enjoy the themepark made for them.
Ok, I play EVE - sandbox pvp loot, etc. I am in essence a pve player because I mine and haul... very rarely do I play PvP. And I laugh when people say all EVE is about is PVP. It isn't. Just because a game has PvP doesn't mean that is all there is to it. Now I do admit my hulk has an tank fit to give me enough time to run away. I do admit that if my corp is war-dec'd I can get in a combat ship and help out. I am just saying that sandbox without the danger, without the possibility of another player attacking you is pretty boring and pointless. It is my opinion and I believe it is shared by a considerable number of players. I know it is popular to whine about lack of PvE or too much PvP but there are many games for you pve players. Go play LOTRO - they have nerfed it to the point that you can pretty much solo to the lvl cap. It is true PvE - no danger, no fun. As I have said - My opinion.
You seem to be confusing Themepark with PvE and Sandbox with PvP.
how many pvp themeparks are there? Mostly themepark is for causual players who want to solo a mmo.
I don't think PvP is necessary for a sandbox, so long as the PvE takes its place by being dangerous and dynamic.
I don't really get it, what is the point of having a sandbox if you aren't going to interact with other players on a meaningful level? When has PVE ever been dangerous or dynamic? Players make the best enemies and the main reason to play online games is for the added challenge of going up against a player rather than some dumb AI.
Since when is PvP the only meaningfull interaction between players. Players can make the best enemiesl, often they are annoying. Your right there hasn't really been any dangerous or dynamic pve. Other players are definately low on my list of requirements for added challenge though. Personally I think puzzles are more challenging than players.
Originally posted by ElderRat
Originally posted by sullivanj69
Originally posted by Cuathon
I don't think PvP is necessary for a sandbox, so long as the PvE takes its place by being dangerous and dynamic.
I don't really get it, what is the point of having a sandbox if you aren't going to interact with other players on a meaningful level? When has PVE ever been dangerous or dynamic? Players make the best enemies and the main reason to play online games is for the added challenge of going up against a player rather than some dumb AI.
I don't disagree, but there seems to be a sizable amount of today's players that want an easy game where there is no risk. I do not pretend to understand that but it is there.
No pvp does not mean no risk.
Originally posted by ElderRat
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by sullivanj69
Originally posted by Cuathon
I don't think PvP is necessary for a sandbox, so long as the PvE takes its place by being dangerous and dynamic.
I don't really get it, what is the point of having a sandbox if you aren't going to interact with other players on a meaningful level? When has PVE ever been dangerous or dynamic? Players make the best enemies and the main reason to play online games is for the added challenge of going up against a player rather than some dumb AI.
You can make PvE dangerous and dynamic. Just modern MMO players have no interest in that. They don't like to lose.
You can interact with other players on a meaningful level without trying to kill each other.
Yes but there are already countless PvE games. PVE players need to let the Sandbox PVP crowd have a game or 2 to themselves that remains that way.
I think there are more PvP sandbox games than Pve. So how about the Sandbox PvP crowd players give the sandbox PVe crowd another game or two?
sandbox pvp = Eve, darkfall, MO, Wurm?*. Haven and Heath?*, Runescape?*, UWO?* and coming out ArchAge and many more.
sandbox pve - ryzom (although very limited), Istaria, Atitd (although very limited)
* - means I haven't tried them but a simple search stated they were sandbox and pvp. I'll let you guys correct me if they are not.
maybe pve'rs should enjoy the themeparks made just for them and leave sandboxes alone. Just to counter your argument.
Why can't pvp'rs enjoy the themepark made for them.
I agree with ElderRat on this. The fun in an MMO (to me) is the risk of PvP even when you are engaging in PvE. I too played Shadowbane, and even when you are out farming you had to keep an eye out for unfreindlies, and yes as he states if you know what you are doing and pay attention you can get away unscathed. I am about to try out Eve; it seems to be the only polished sandbox out there. Without the threat of danger, games are not fun in the long run for me. When the challenge only boils down to memorizing what tiles are about to change color in a raid, that to me is not skill, but simple memorization. As posters stated, the ultimate in challenge is having meaningful threat from other players.
Off topic, but there is an emulator in the works for SB, which looks to be showing meaningful progress. It is in it's 4th closed beta. http://www.shadowbaneemulator.com/
so my opinion is invalidated by yours? That is more troll like. You have always - in every thread i have seen you post been pro pve and anti - pvp. There are other viewpoints that are just as valid as yours. I can argue your opinion. Just because I disagree with it does not make me a troll, just as your disagreement with mine does not make you one. Please hold the name calling.
The problem is that words mean things.
Player vs Monster is the original term for PvE. I posted the official definition of PvE/PvM.
That is not MY opinion. That is what the word means. I am referencing a fact. Not an opinion.
So it is a FACT that crafting and gathering are not PvE. They are something you can do WHILE ALSO PVEing. They are something you can do PvE in order to gain materials for. But they are not PvE.
So you can certainly argue with my opinion. When I am giving my opinion. But that is not what I was doing.
If I said 2+2 in base 10 was 4, could you say it was 5 and then say that it can't be wrong because it was only your opinion?
In fact when I first designed TTS it was 100% a PvP game. It didn't even have monsters to fight. You could gather, you could craft, you could build and you could fight other players. It was PURE PvP.
So to say I am opposed to PvP is just silly. In fact even aside from that I am against themeparks and for sandboxes.
Now you could argue that Sandboxes should be FFA PvP and I would disagree. And those would be opinions we have and could argue about.
But the fact that crafting and gathering are not aspects of PvE is not up for debate because its not my opinion. They are excluded BY DEFINITION.
PvE players are not necesserily themepark players. I myself am a PvE player but can't stand themepark games. A Tale in the desert hasn't got even acceptable graphics, it has no PvE combat at all, and it resets in every 1 and half year. I wouldn"t even call it a real sandbox due to the limited options you have there and very linear gameplay.
Ok, I play EVE - sandbox pvp loot, etc. I am in essence a pve player because I mine and haul... very rarely do I play PvP. And I laugh when people say all EVE is about is PVP. It isn't. Just because a game has PvP doesn't mean that is all there is to it. Now I do admit my hulk has an tank fit to give me enough time to run away. I do admit that if my corp is war-dec'd I can get in a combat ship and help out. I am just saying that sandbox without the danger, without the possibility of another player attacking you is pretty boring and pointless. It is my opinion and I believe it is shared by a considerable number of players. I know it is popular to whine about lack of PvE or too much PvP but there are many games for you pve players. Go play LOTRO - they have nerfed it to the point that you can pretty much solo to the lvl cap. It is true PvE - no danger, no fun. As I have said - My opinion.
It is extremely shortsighted of you saying that every PvE player should play themepark games. You equal sandbox with FFA PvP while it has nothing to do with it. Your OP was about how PvE crowd should let PvP players to have their sandbox game...while there are at least 3 FFA PvP sandbox game and 0 PvE sandbox. So don't send us PvE players to play themeparks, let us have our PvE sandbox finally.
Comments
I agree - MO is too broken in MY opinion and darkfall was , as you say, not polished. I do admit to having done the trial and becoming fearful when I realized that a lvl 1 Goblin could kick my sorry ass.
Currently bored with MMO's.
lol, ok if you say so. j/k but to me the difference is very slight.
Currently bored with MMO's.
For me, pvp sandboxes are the only games left with a death penalty. Without one I feel like "Whats the point?".
Since when is PvP the only meaningfull interaction between players. Players can make the best enemiesl, often they are annoying. Your right there hasn't really been any dangerous or dynamic pve. Other players are definately low on my list of requirements for added challenge though. Personally I think puzzles are more challenging than players.
No pvp does not mean no risk.
I think there are more PvP sandbox games than Pve. So how about the Sandbox PvP crowd players give the sandbox PVe crowd another game or two?
sandbox pvp = Eve, darkfall, MO, Wurm?*. Haven and Heath?*, Runescape?*, UWO?* and coming out ArchAge and many more.
sandbox pve - ryzom (although very limited), Istaria, Atitd (although very limited)
* - means I haven't tried them but a simple search stated they were sandbox and pvp. I'll let you guys correct me if they are not.
"Player versus environment, or PvE (also known as Player versus Monster, or PvM in some communities), is a term used in online games, particularly MMORPGs, CORPGs, MUDs, and other online role-playing video games, to refer to fighting computer-controlled enemies[1]—in contrast to PvP (player versus player)."
So no, the difference is objectively large, not slight.
Shockingly it appears that me and Sunsoar are on the same page here. good post Venge.
How? I'm not being facetious, I just don't see it. PvE can be fun and entertaining but I've never gotten a dangerous feel from it. All but the most minor death penalties have been taken off the table so what's left? You can only script a mob to do so many different things before the players learn the behavoir, after which it isn't challenging anymore. Not to mention, you can't overdo the AI code or you'd bring the server to its knees.
Group based PvP is a good blend of team work and fighting against intelligent and sometimes unpredictable opponents.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Ye i agree with you fully, i almost only play ffa mmo from the beginning, and you can usually avoid pvp most of the time if you are not a total noob. And this is where come the problem, avoiding unwanted pvp is in fact a skill by its own in those kind of games and is what make the difference between a "good" and bad player, not only the fact he can win those fight, but the fact he can somewhat choose them. The thing is, most noob are playing in high risk zones and they wonder why they die so fast, and are so much griefed, the kind of forum post "i get killed 3 times in a raw" is like a moto in those kind of game, where in fact 99% of the player know how to avoid this kind of stuff. For me pvp in a game is not that much interesting for the fight itself but all the elements around it, from survivability, risk aspect, the fact your acts really have some weight and so on. But naturally most people just look at how they easily died where they should try to figure out how to survive and keep away from risk.
maybe pve'rs should enjoy the themeparks made just for them and leave sandboxes alone. Just to counter your argument.
Currently bored with MMO's.
PvE players are not necesserily themepark players. I myself am a PvE player but can't stand themepark games. A Tale in the desert hasn't got even acceptable graphics, it has no PvE combat at all, and it resets in every 1 and half year. I wouldn"t even call it a real sandbox due to the limited options you have there and very linear gameplay.
My experience is that pve involves much more than fighting mobs and many times is more focused on crafting. My experience is that pve is for those who cannot cope with the feeling of danger. That is ok, there are many themepark games for the pve player where there is no danger.
Currently bored with MMO's.
I get more sense of danger out of harsh death penaltys. Having to recover a corpse and all my belongings, losing EXP because I play poorly, or having to travel for a long time to get back to my hunting grounds are far more rewarding for me then to be a guinea pig for some amoral, assclown whos only goal in life is to ruins the fun of others. PvP and PvE should always be a segregated play style, neither mix well.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I get more sense of danger out of harsh death penaltys. Having to recover a corpse and all my belongings, losing EXP because I play poorly, or having to travel for a long time to get back to my hunting grounds are far more rewarding for me then to be a guinea pig for some amoral, assclown whos only goal in life is to ruins the fun of others. PvP and PvE should always be a segregated play style, neither mix well.
I think the important thing is that the game designs PvP or/and PvE in from the start, the problem is when things get tacked on at the end. Look at TOR, all that effort creating a story driven RPG and tacking an MMO on to it in last minutes.Ok, I play EVE - sandbox pvp loot, etc. I am in essence a pve player because I mine and haul... very rarely do I play PvP. And I laugh when people say all EVE is about is PVP. It isn't. Just because a game has PvP doesn't mean that is all there is to it. Now I do admit my hulk has an tank fit to give me enough time to run away. I do admit that if my corp is war-dec'd I can get in a combat ship and help out. I am just saying that sandbox without the danger, without the possibility of another player attacking you is pretty boring and pointless. It is my opinion and I believe it is shared by a considerable number of players. I know it is popular to whine about lack of PvE or too much PvP but there are many games for you pve players. Go play LOTRO - they have nerfed it to the point that you can pretty much solo to the lvl cap. It is true PvE - no danger, no fun. As I have said - My opinion.
Currently bored with MMO's.
This has to be a troll. You can't be serious. Crafting is NOT pve. Gathering IS NOT pve. PvE refers ONLY to fighting monsters. Player vs Monster=Player vs Environment. How the hell can crafting possibly have anything to do with fighting monsters? Crafting is a totally separate aspect of a game.
I want to play a game with dangerous PvE. With death penalties and very hard to solo content. Where a monster can just pop out of invis and massacre you if you don't have something to allow you to percieve it. Where monsters assault and totally destroy player made towns.
Now please explain to me in what themepark does the PvE involve hundred or more monster raids where they destroy player made towns that took people months or more to make? Hell in what themepark can I even have a game where all buildings are player built and/or possible to be destroyed?
Player vs player means fighting players. And player vs environment/monster means fighting npc monsters.
Neither of these has anything to do with crafting. If you don't think that PvE is separate from crafting you are WRONG. Period. This isn't an opinion. This is the literal definition of player vs environment. Fighting non player enemies. Combat.
You seem to be confusing Themepark with PvE and Sandbox with PvP.
why? Are you saying t hat sandbox should only be for pvp? Thats moronic. Why can't pvp'rs enjoy the themepark made for them.
With a good AI and Goal, yes it can be done and i am a PVP person person, but i would play that mmo.
My Top Free MMORPGs
so my opinion is invalidated by yours? That is more troll like. You have always - in every thread i have seen you post been pro pve and anti - pvp. There are other viewpoints that are just as valid as yours. I can argue your opinion. Just because I disagree with it does not make me a troll, just as your disagreement with mine does not make you one. Please hold the name calling.
Currently bored with MMO's.
it was a moronic reply to your moronic post, yes.
Currently bored with MMO's.
how many pvp themeparks are there? Mostly themepark is for causual players who want to solo a mmo.
Currently bored with MMO's.
which themepark is made just for pvp'rs?
Currently bored with MMO's.
I agree with ElderRat on this. The fun in an MMO (to me) is the risk of PvP even when you are engaging in PvE. I too played Shadowbane, and even when you are out farming you had to keep an eye out for unfreindlies, and yes as he states if you know what you are doing and pay attention you can get away unscathed. I am about to try out Eve; it seems to be the only polished sandbox out there. Without the threat of danger, games are not fun in the long run for me. When the challenge only boils down to memorizing what tiles are about to change color in a raid, that to me is not skill, but simple memorization. As posters stated, the ultimate in challenge is having meaningful threat from other players.
Off topic, but there is an emulator in the works for SB, which looks to be showing meaningful progress. It is in it's 4th closed beta. http://www.shadowbaneemulator.com/
Often lurking, rarely posting
The problem is that words mean things.
Player vs Monster is the original term for PvE. I posted the official definition of PvE/PvM.
That is not MY opinion. That is what the word means. I am referencing a fact. Not an opinion.
So it is a FACT that crafting and gathering are not PvE. They are something you can do WHILE ALSO PVEing. They are something you can do PvE in order to gain materials for. But they are not PvE.
So you can certainly argue with my opinion. When I am giving my opinion. But that is not what I was doing.
If I said 2+2 in base 10 was 4, could you say it was 5 and then say that it can't be wrong because it was only your opinion?
In fact when I first designed TTS it was 100% a PvP game. It didn't even have monsters to fight. You could gather, you could craft, you could build and you could fight other players. It was PURE PvP.
So to say I am opposed to PvP is just silly. In fact even aside from that I am against themeparks and for sandboxes.
Now you could argue that Sandboxes should be FFA PvP and I would disagree. And those would be opinions we have and could argue about.
But the fact that crafting and gathering are not aspects of PvE is not up for debate because its not my opinion. They are excluded BY DEFINITION.
It is extremely shortsighted of you saying that every PvE player should play themepark games. You equal sandbox with FFA PvP while it has nothing to do with it. Your OP was about how PvE crowd should let PvP players to have their sandbox game...while there are at least 3 FFA PvP sandbox game and 0 PvE sandbox. So don't send us PvE players to play themeparks, let us have our PvE sandbox finally.