ffs im really tired of you retards that have no clue what your talking about. pick up a copy of GW1 and learn how gear is going to fing work in GW2 before you whine. their is no best gear. its all side grades, or cosmetic changes. their is no super rare gear with insane stats. this inst a fing gear treadmill.
My point isn't that the gear being bought has "insane stats." My point is, that if one player can purchase something for real money that another player cannot afford through actually playing the game, that's an unfair advantage.
Edit: Also, I'd hesitate to call others retards when you haven't learned the differences between "your" and you're", and "there and their".
GW sells many custumes that only money can buy. Do we care? What do you think? Do we care?
That's a level playing field. However, if you can only spend real money to get a vanity item, that's different than spending real money on non-vanity items that other players take more time to earn through actually playing the game.
Everything that is in the store will basically be available for gold with this system - so it doesn't really matter what is in the store, as it is also available for players who play and don't want to spend additional money.
Now I'm scared LOL.
Not necessary. There is no reason to have gameplay-affecting items in the cashshop because you can use the Gems<>Gold transition to acquire items/advantages.
"but we think we can provide additional content and services that you’d be happy to pay for"
lol YES players get to pay extra and have more content and items available that other players have to grind for IF possible at all.
" They should also be able to spend money on account services and on time-saving convenience items"
lol YES players can get "time-saving" convenience items like rez items, and exp-bonus items, while others have to tough it out.
"you ultimately have two ways to get it: you can play to earn gold or you can use money to buy gems. We think that’s important, because it lets more players participate on a level playing field, whether they use their free time or their disposable income to do it"
lol YES players who have very little free time will opt for Pay 2 win, pay 2 level. I love it. At least f2p games give you the game for free, lol Area net choses to charge you all along the way.
"MMO veterans will note the similarities of our system to EVE Online’s PLEX system"
Uhm NO, Eve's PLEX system basically allows you to grind in-game currency and buy playtime cards from other players with it to basically play for free if you do not take into account the time spent grinding in-game currency. They in no way sell "time-saving convenience items" that speed up the skilling-up process.
So in case you missed the key points: spend money on account services and on time-saving convenience items
And all of a sudden the forums exploded. I don't really like it, it is way too similar to Diablo 3's Auction House.
Edit to the poster above me: But doesn't a system like this allow players to gain power by spending Real Money? Is this a problem in EvE?
you wont be able to gain power by spending real money. I dont know about EVE because ive never played it or even looked into it, but Mark O Briens message its pretty clear that theres no power to the player (who spends real money) over the one who spends time.
The items that they are going to sell in the cash shop are now irrelevant. Thats (hopefully) not going to be a problem as they will all (hopefully) be vanity items.
$$ --> Gems --> In Game Gold quite simply means the game is now pay to win.
For example(numbers pulled outa my ass):
Person A plays 20 hours to get 10,000 gold to buy excellent gear
Person B plays 1 hour and spends $ to get gems, sells them for gold and buys the same excellent gear
Person B wins because he gets the same gear in a fraction of the time
it is not pay to Win because the awesome gear is not a cash shop gear. They wont sell cash shop gear with statsm only appearance change items to make your gear look different. Regarding the gear you mentioned, you get it whenever you can afford it. So no, i think you are missunderstandig the cash shop system here. I do know what you mean, other F2P mmos do exactly what you say. But here (as far as O'Brien tells us) its not that way.
Everything that is in the store will basically be available for gold with this system - so it doesn't really matter what is in the store, as it is also available for players who play and don't want to spend additional money.
Now I'm scared LOL.
Not necessary. There is no reason to have gameplay-affecting items in the cashshop because you can use the Gems<>Gold transition to acquire items/advantages.
I don't think that's what he was hinting at.
I think that is what he wants you to think he's hinting at.
ffs im really tired of you retards that have no clue what your talking about. pick up a copy of GW1 and learn how gear is going to fing work in GW2 before you whine. their is no best gear. its all side grades, or cosmetic changes. their is no super rare gear with insane stats. this inst a fing gear treadmill.
yeah uh bro, I guess you missed the memo that this game bears almost no resemblance in any way outside of Lore to GW1.
Actually the philosophy and idea behind both games are unchanged. Only the mechanics and technical things changed.
No sub fee, no grind, no killsteal, no ganking, structured PvP... I could go on.
One of the philosophy was to never have and advantage in the cash shop. People can have all the gold then want, karma will still buy you top gear.
ffs im really tired of you retards that have no clue what your talking about. pick up a copy of GW1 and learn how gear is going to fing work in GW2 before you whine. their is no best gear. its all side grades, or cosmetic changes. their is no super rare gear with insane stats. this inst a fing gear treadmill.
Funny, I played Guild Wars for a bit, and it seemed to me there was gear that dropped or could be crafted that was better than other gear that dropped or could be crafted.
True or false: Gear drops in Guild wars had value and many can be sold on the auction house for gold.
True, you are correct. But to give you an example, with my last character I decided for fun to level from 1 to 20 with starter armor. Easy. Even the missions. Why? Because I know how to play. I have seen people struggle with the same areas/missions with top armor/weapons.
It's basically the best possible system and makes total sense, I applaud ArenaNet for having the courage to apply EVE PLEX system on their MMO. Has pros and cons but it's the best the industry has come up with so far.
That said...incoming community reaction!!!
I love the smell of fresh fanboy charred corpses in the afternoon
Burn, fanbabies, burn.
I think you may be confused. fanboys defend everything a company does.
The best system is a subscription fee. Cash shops are simply an attempt to get more than 15 bucks per player per month on average.
Complete and utter nonsense.
In a subscription system, I pay the developer on the PROMISE that they are going to provide me with content for the $$.
In a B2P/MT based system, I pay the developer when they provide me something I want.
There's a huge difference, and judging how many of those subscription based MMOs have been doing of late actually DELIVERING content to their players(hint, most don't provide enough), I'd say that this system puts the responsibility on the developers, not the player base to provide REASONS to continue to pay.
***In Guild Wars 2 we have three currencies: gold, karma, and gems. Gold is the common in-game currency. Karma, which players earn in-game but cannot trade, is used for unique rewards. And gems are the currency that’s bought and used to purchase microtransactions.
We have a new player-driven market that allows players to trade gold for gems and gems for gold. If you want something, whether it’s an in-game item or a microtransaction, you ultimately have two ways to get it: you can play to earn gold or you can use money to buy gems.***
GW2 carebear formula v1.0 (beta)
a)real money for gems
b)gems for gold
c)gold for karma ,items whatever. help me to kill this and that i pay 10,000 gold gems whatever.
looks absolute carebear game to me.
I think your missing the fact that this game isn't about gear. This may be a hard concept for most current mmo players to understand.
As long as gold or money doens't offer some stat advantange over my character than there is nothing wrong with the system.
I'm not really sure what your definition of carebear is, but the cash shop has nothing to do with instanced pvp or RVR.
Everything that is in the store will basically be available for gold with this system - so it doesn't really matter what is in the store, as it is also available for players who play and don't want to spend additional money.
Now I'm scared LOL.
Not necessary. There is no reason to have gameplay-affecting items in the cashshop because you can use the Gems<>Gold transition to acquire items/advantages.
I don't think that's what he was hinting at.
I think that is what he wants you to think he's hinting at.
Why yes, probably, but that's hardly comforting is it?
It's basically the best possible system and makes total sense, I applaud ArenaNet for having the courage to apply EVE PLEX system on their MMO. Has pros and cons but it's the best the industry has come up with so far.
That said...incoming community reaction!!!
I love the smell of fresh fanboy charred corpses in the afternoon
Burn, fanbabies, burn.
I think you may be confused. fanboys defend everything a company does.
The best system is a subscription fee. Cash shops are simply an attempt to get more than 15 bucks per player per month on average.
Complete and utter nonsense.
In a subscription system, I pay the developer on the PROMISE that they are going to provide me with content for the $$.
In a B2P/MT based system, I pay the developer when they provide me something I want.
There's a huge difference, and judging how many of those subscription based MMOs have been doing of late actually DELIVERING content to their players(hint, most don't provide enough), I'd say that this system puts the responsibility on the developers, not the player base to provide REASONS to continue to pay.
So, you're saying you want microtransactions to include content?
The more I think about this system the more it makes sense.
Player A (the poor hard worker) :
Damn I really want that micro-transaction golem banker, but I don't have (IRL) money to spend on it. Wait a minute, I can use my in-game gold to purchase gems from another player and still get it any way!
Player B (the rich lazy guy) :
I want this cool looking armor but I really don't feel like farming a lot of gold. Wait a minute, I'll just buy some gems and sell them to players. I get the armor I want that way!
In essence player B payed for player A's micro transaction and player A simply provided a service to player B in return (in-game gold). There's no money creation, because the money was hard-earned gold by player A all along. This is great because it does not affect the economy!
Player A gets his micro transaction. Player B gets his shiny armor. ArenaNet gets paid.
In addition, you can't buy dungon gear with gold, karma, or gems and GW2 not being gear driven.
Originally Posted by Martin Kerstein
Everything that is in the store will basically be available for gold with this system - so it doesn't really matter what is in the store, as it is also available for players who play and don't want to spend additional money.
Also to point out
There's nothing that you can buy, cash shop or otherwise, that will give you a statistical advantage over anyone else. Will you look like a bad ass? Perhaps you will, but looking cool won't make you a better player. That is all.
Anet is a company, if they dont make money they cant do shit.
This is the most fair way to make money, let the player decide what they want to do with their money. If someone doesnt want to spend money they dont have to.
Players that want to spend money get rewarded for it, otherwise nobody would spend their money right?
Yes there will be players that buy gems and sell them ingame for gold to get other stuff. Thats just smart, and as long as other players are willing to buy it they will keep doing it.
***In Guild Wars 2 we have three currencies: gold, karma, and gems. Gold is the common in-game currency. Karma, which players earn in-game but cannot trade, is used for unique rewards. And gems are the currency that’s bought and used to purchase microtransactions.
We have a new player-driven market that allows players to trade gold for gems and gems for gold. If you want something, whether it’s an in-game item or a microtransaction, you ultimately have two ways to get it: you can play to earn gold or you can use money to buy gems.***
GW2 carebear formula v1.0
a)real money for gems
b)gems for gold
c)gold for karma ,items whatever. help me to kill this and that i pay 10,000 golg gems whatever.
looks absolute carebear game to me.
You can't buy Karma. You also can't buy Power. So explain how it is carebear again?
from wiki :
Karma is a non-tradable reward received by participating in events and helping others with their personal storyline. It is primarily used to develop a character's personality. Karma can also be used to buy items from certain NPCs.
Almost everything which is attainable by using karma is also purchasable using coin.[1]
Everything that is in the store will basically be available for gold with this system - so it doesn't really matter what is in the store, as it is also available for players who play and don't want to spend additional money.
Now I'm scared LOL.
Not necessary. There is no reason to have gameplay-affecting items in the cashshop because you can use the Gems<>Gold transition to acquire items/advantages.
I don't think that's what he was hinting at.
I think that is what he wants you to think he's hinting at.
Why yes, probably, but that's hardly comforting is it?
The only comfort that could be offered is the rumor that people in the Beta will be able to see what is in the cashshop.
The only thing this changes is the illusion that people don't buy gold.
A significant portion of every game populatin buys gold and funnels money away from the game now it's going to be safe and easy to do I can't wait.
I agree and comparing the system to PLEX was a mistake, since many of us know that EVE still has an illicit RMT problem. The real answer to RMT is bans not competing with the gold sellers.
Bans that should be a no brainer, since not even a sub fee is lost when a seller or buyer gets banned. No second chances, no temp bans, no mercy for buyers anymore than there should be mercy for sellers. You buy or sell gold, you should have to buy the box again and start over. That's the real way to get rid of gold farmers, gold buyers, hackers, botters, and other unsavory people.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Anet is a company, if they dont make money they cant do shit.
This is the most fair way to make money, let the player decide what they want to do with their money. If someone doesnt want to spend money they dont have to.
Players that want to spend money get rewarded for it, otherwise nobody would spend their money right?
Yes there will be players that buy gems and sell them ingame for gold to get other stuff. Thats just smart, and as long as other players are willing to buy it they will keep doing it.
I agree with the first three things you said.
Players determining what's worth their money is awesome. Legal RMT is not.
Where are the fanboi's now? They are selling IN GAME GOLD, end of discussion. I've said all along that the cash shop worried me, and I have been completely vindicated. This game is now a F2P/P2W nightmare.
The reason a money > in game currency route works in Eve is because the game does NOT centre around the "Gear = Power" mentality.
GW2 also subscribes to the idea, similar to EVE, that your gear is not the most defining aspect of your characters power. And due to this the route of being able to use RL money in In-Game currency is viable.
Something like this would absolutely decimate a game like WoW or RIFT because they are built upon a system of tiered items and rapid progression, which that system completely bypasses. Arguably this system is more volatile in EVE than GW2 due to the competitive aspect of GW2 leveling out the playing field by giving everyone the same stats/gear/traits etc. Whereas in EVE I can go splash out in Deadspace/Officer mods and gain a reasonable advantage over someone who doesn't, problem with that in EVE though is that you'll still be killed relatively easily and all those expensive things get destroyed or looted by the people who killed you so kitting out your ships like that gets prohibitively expensive.
So in GW2 the only place this might have an impact on would be WvW but then the game is not gear dependant so even if you did shell out loads of cash fo the best items those items are not going to exactly be super duper hard to get in game anyway, nor give you as big of an advantage as you would expect in other games.
[And just to clarify what I mean when I say it gets prohibitively expensive playing like that in EVE.. My corps killboard since November has counted a total of 62.91B worth of damages and 11.61B worth of losses. Translated into real money that is somewhere in the region of 2500 dollars worth of damage and 470 dollars of losses. We live in wormhole space and many of the ships we fly will cost north of 1b ISK to assemble which on it's own equates to about 40 dollars for a single ship. I would like to see someone buy those ships with RL money when they lose it and see how much they lose.]
The only thing this changes is the illusion that people don't buy gold.
A significant portion of every game populatin buys gold and funnels money away from the game now it's going to be safe and easy to do I can't wait.
I agree and comparing the system to PLEX was a mistake, since many of us know that EVE still has an illicit RMT problem. The real answer to RMT is bans not competing with the gold sellers.
Bans that should be a no brainer, since not even a sub fee is lost when a seller or buyer gets banned. No second chances, no temp bans, no mercy for buyers anymore than there should be mercy for sellers. You buy or sell gold, you should have to buy the box again and start over. That's the real way to get rid of gold farmers, gold buyers, hackers, botters, and other unsavory people.
Honestly its not the system that is important but the intention they put behind the system. If they are not "that" greedy, everything will be fine. That was with Eve, it is the same with those day 1 Dlc, and every time people have to bang the fist on the table. Some marketing guys can think they are super smart and all, but really anyone with common sense know those tricks don't really go far. So unless you have only short therm into account, most people avoid this kind of crap.
And all of a sudden the forums exploded. I don't really like it, it is way too similar to Diablo 3's Auction House.
Edit to the poster above me: But doesn't a system like this allow players to gain power by spending Real Money? Is this a problem in EvE?
you wont be able to gain power by spending real money. I dont know about EVE because ive never played it or even looked into it, but Mark O Briens message its pretty clear that theres no power to the player (who spends real money) over the one who spends time.
The items that they are going to sell in the cash shop are now irrelevant. Thats (hopefully) not going to be a problem as they will all (hopefully) be vanity items.
$$ --> Gems --> In Game Gold quite simply means the game is now pay to win.
For example(numbers pulled outa my ass):
Person A plays 20 hours to get 10,000 gold to buy excellent gear
Person B plays 1 hour and spends $ to get gems, sells them for gold and buys the same excellent gear
Person B wins because he gets the same gear in a fraction of the time
it is not pay to Win because the awesome gear is not a cash shop gear. They wont sell cash shop gear with statsm only appearance change items to make your gear look different. Regarding the gear you mentioned, you get it whenever you can afford it. So no, i think you are missunderstandig the cash shop system here. I do know what you mean, other F2P mmos do exactly what you say. But here (as far as O'Brien tells us) its not that way.
I dont think you are fully understanding. Cash shop gear is now irrelevant as you can convert real $ into Gems into in game gold. You can then buy in game (non cash shop) items with your gold. Someone playing without spending real $ will take a lot longer to be "able to afford it" than someone that pays real $ for in game gold.
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
So you can purchase gems with money, that can be traded for gold in game. If I'm reading this correctly, this gives advantage to players who spend real money as opposed to those who don't.
No, I don't think so. You can either spend real life cash on items in the item shop. Or you can trade your well earned ingame gold into gems which you can use to buy item in item shop.
Comments
That's a level playing field. However, if you can only spend real money to get a vanity item, that's different than spending real money on non-vanity items that other players take more time to earn through actually playing the game.
I care.
I don't think that's what he was hinting at.
"but we think we can provide additional content and services that you’d be happy to pay for"
lol YES players get to pay extra and have more content and items available that other players have to grind for IF possible at all.
" They should also be able to spend money on account services and on time-saving convenience items"
lol YES players can get "time-saving" convenience items like rez items, and exp-bonus items, while others have to tough it out.
"you ultimately have two ways to get it: you can play to earn gold or you can use money to buy gems. We think that’s important, because it lets more players participate on a level playing field, whether they use their free time or their disposable income to do it"
lol YES players who have very little free time will opt for Pay 2 win, pay 2 level. I love it. At least f2p games give you the game for free, lol Area net choses to charge you all along the way.
"MMO veterans will note the similarities of our system to EVE Online’s PLEX system"
Uhm NO, Eve's PLEX system basically allows you to grind in-game currency and buy playtime cards from other players with it to basically play for free if you do not take into account the time spent grinding in-game currency. They in no way sell "time-saving convenience items" that speed up the skilling-up process.
So in case you missed the key points: spend money on account services and on time-saving convenience items
LOL! PAY 2 WIN HERE WE COME
The only thing this changes is the illusion that people don't buy gold.
A significant portion of every game populatin buys gold and funnels money away from the game now it's going to be safe and easy to do I can't wait.
-------------------------------------------------
Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
-------------------------------------------------
it is not pay to Win because the awesome gear is not a cash shop gear. They wont sell cash shop gear with statsm only appearance change items to make your gear look different. Regarding the gear you mentioned, you get it whenever you can afford it. So no, i think you are missunderstandig the cash shop system here. I do know what you mean, other F2P mmos do exactly what you say. But here (as far as O'Brien tells us) its not that way.
I think that is what he wants you to think he's hinting at.
Actually the philosophy and idea behind both games are unchanged. Only the mechanics and technical things changed.
No sub fee, no grind, no killsteal, no ganking, structured PvP... I could go on.
One of the philosophy was to never have and advantage in the cash shop. People can have all the gold then want, karma will still buy you top gear.
True, you are correct. But to give you an example, with my last character I decided for fun to level from 1 to 20 with starter armor. Easy. Even the missions. Why? Because I know how to play. I have seen people struggle with the same areas/missions with top armor/weapons.
One of life's lil hand grenades
Complete and utter nonsense.
In a subscription system, I pay the developer on the PROMISE that they are going to provide me with content for the $$.
In a B2P/MT based system, I pay the developer when they provide me something I want.
There's a huge difference, and judging how many of those subscription based MMOs have been doing of late actually DELIVERING content to their players(hint, most don't provide enough), I'd say that this system puts the responsibility on the developers, not the player base to provide REASONS to continue to pay.
I think your missing the fact that this game isn't about gear. This may be a hard concept for most current mmo players to understand.
As long as gold or money doens't offer some stat advantange over my character than there is nothing wrong with the system.
I'm not really sure what your definition of carebear is, but the cash shop has nothing to do with instanced pvp or RVR.
+1 you are my new favorite person.
Why yes, probably, but that's hardly comforting is it?
So, you're saying you want microtransactions to include content?
That'd divide the playerbase. Bad idea.
Also to point out
There's nothing that you can buy, cash shop or otherwise, that will give you a statistical advantage over anyone else. Will you look like a bad ass? Perhaps you will, but looking cool won't make you a better player. That is all.
You can't buy or trade dungeon gear.
Conquest mode is even playing field.
PVE you can't even attack or gank each other.
Anet is a company, if they dont make money they cant do shit.
This is the most fair way to make money, let the player decide what they want to do with their money. If someone doesnt want to spend money they dont have to.
Players that want to spend money get rewarded for it, otherwise nobody would spend their money right?
Yes there will be players that buy gems and sell them ingame for gold to get other stuff. Thats just smart, and as long as other players are willing to buy it they will keep doing it.
from wiki :
Karma
is a non-tradable reward received by participating in events and helping others with their personal storyline. It is primarily used to develop a character's personality. Karma can also be used to buy items from certain NPCs.
Almost everything which is attainable by using karma is also purchasable using coin.[1]
[edit] Acquisition
Karma can be obtained by:
completing events.
assisting another player with their personal story.
The amount of karma you currently have is indicated on the bottom left-hand side of the inventory window. Karma cannot be traded between players.
--- so again help me to kill this and that i pay 10,000 golg gems whatever.
Let's internet
The only comfort that could be offered is the rumor that people in the Beta will be able to see what is in the cashshop.
I agree and comparing the system to PLEX was a mistake, since many of us know that EVE still has an illicit RMT problem. The real answer to RMT is bans not competing with the gold sellers.
Bans that should be a no brainer, since not even a sub fee is lost when a seller or buyer gets banned. No second chances, no temp bans, no mercy for buyers anymore than there should be mercy for sellers. You buy or sell gold, you should have to buy the box again and start over. That's the real way to get rid of gold farmers, gold buyers, hackers, botters, and other unsavory people.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
I agree with the first three things you said.
Players determining what's worth their money is awesome. Legal RMT is not.
Where are the fanboi's now? They are selling IN GAME GOLD, end of discussion. I've said all along that the cash shop worried me, and I have been completely vindicated. This game is now a F2P/P2W nightmare.
The reason a money > in game currency route works in Eve is because the game does NOT centre around the "Gear = Power" mentality.
GW2 also subscribes to the idea, similar to EVE, that your gear is not the most defining aspect of your characters power. And due to this the route of being able to use RL money in In-Game currency is viable.
Something like this would absolutely decimate a game like WoW or RIFT because they are built upon a system of tiered items and rapid progression, which that system completely bypasses. Arguably this system is more volatile in EVE than GW2 due to the competitive aspect of GW2 leveling out the playing field by giving everyone the same stats/gear/traits etc. Whereas in EVE I can go splash out in Deadspace/Officer mods and gain a reasonable advantage over someone who doesn't, problem with that in EVE though is that you'll still be killed relatively easily and all those expensive things get destroyed or looted by the people who killed you so kitting out your ships like that gets prohibitively expensive.
So in GW2 the only place this might have an impact on would be WvW but then the game is not gear dependant so even if you did shell out loads of cash fo the best items those items are not going to exactly be super duper hard to get in game anyway, nor give you as big of an advantage as you would expect in other games.
[And just to clarify what I mean when I say it gets prohibitively expensive playing like that in EVE.. My corps killboard since November has counted a total of 62.91B worth of damages and 11.61B worth of losses. Translated into real money that is somewhere in the region of 2500 dollars worth of damage and 470 dollars of losses. We live in wormhole space and many of the ships we fly will cost north of 1b ISK to assemble which on it's own equates to about 40 dollars for a single ship. I would like to see someone buy those ships with RL money when they lose it and see how much they lose.]
I completely agree.
Honestly its not the system that is important but the intention they put behind the system. If they are not "that" greedy, everything will be fine. That was with Eve, it is the same with those day 1 Dlc, and every time people have to bang the fist on the table. Some marketing guys can think they are super smart and all, but really anyone with common sense know those tricks don't really go far. So unless you have only short therm into account, most people avoid this kind of crap.
I dont think you are fully understanding. Cash shop gear is now irrelevant as you can convert real $ into Gems into in game gold. You can then buy in game (non cash shop) items with your gold. Someone playing without spending real $ will take a lot longer to be "able to afford it" than someone that pays real $ for in game gold.
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
No, I don't think so. You can either spend real life cash on items in the item shop. Or you can trade your well earned ingame gold into gems which you can use to buy item in item shop.