GW2 can easily take away the carrot by offering alternatives to play. The carrot is only useful when the object is to make it interesting to continue to play rendundant content but has a reward to make a person more compeitive.
So when the game becomes less rewarding with time investments, and also less competitive among players to put up with redundant material then the players have to have other reasons to play the game.
Thats why dynamic events will have to be a hit.
Also class story will have to be engaging enough and well written enough as well.
Other wise the content and lack of rewards will feel more of a grind than other games ironically without the familiar grind carrot on the stick. The carrot on the stick is a reason to play.
Part of the reasons to play is to reach end game, and helping with that is of course that competitiveness along the way as well. Then at the end game the competitiveness usually stagnates into nothing becuase the players completed all the content or an insane grind which devs of past or asian MMOs like to do. Which becomes a problem becuase then the end game is not solid/good enough with a carrot on the stick system which works by on making the carrot that much harder to get.
So if GW2 wants to remove the carrot they will have imo, put really interesting story, and leveling mechanics to make it more interesting to get to the end game. Then the end game has to be extensive enough that it offers its own reasons to play end game repeatedly without looking to items as a grind to be competitive and the reason to log in. So, imo, the end game has to include sand box game play as well, and not just instanced sand box gameplay without the crafting as I think GW2 is doing it. For example all the seige equipment, and houses are prebuilt and does not involve crafting which goes against the sand box expectation of that which also sand box MMOs are about equality instead of item rewards. However the problem with sand box MMOs is that they are too demanding of the player without enough content to justify the commitment. So there are variables into a game which immersions and IP(intellectual properties) play a large part in helping that work.
edit: However, the easiest balance and trade-off between sand box, and themepark and still offering equality is by recreating the experiences people are looking for and making it very accessible at the same time. So, in sand box MMOs it requires a lot of organiation (takes a lot of work to achieve something), but themepark is about instant lfg tools and also items as carrot on the stick to add to that sense of achievement. So the mix has to be sand box situations with instant access, and lots of situations or instances to create that feel. That way, this mix avoids the huge time investment of players in crafting be too integral but still being able to play. However, the enconomy is always important, and there has to be ways to make that work as well, which means more trade-offs of between sand box and themepark MMOs.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
3. How do you know what works and doesn't work when the game is NOT EVEN OUT. Your entire post is an assumption, and a very bad one at that which discredits your ENTIRE point of view.
All those demos and real players that played those in conventions... tons of beta footage and impression from beta...
I feel sorry for you that you refuse to see it works, and works well, better than any other mmo that is out at the moment.
Just wait a couple of months, and see for yourself.
I used to be one of those chasing the next great item, to be able to prance around in it and have others look upon me with awe. But since that I've grown up, I've got a family and less time, and I have been forced to re-think and re-evaluate my thoughts about myself and others and have come to realise that having fun and a great experience in the little time I nowdays have to spend on gaming is more important than feeling that you have to be better than others.
You know, I'm just so tired of clinging to the past.
...
It is really funny. Because i am clinging to the past, but in my case it is the UO, virtual world paradigm. And there was nothing like that, which you have summed up very well for the WoW(item collecting, grinding) paradigm. It was a free world, where you could do what you wanted, where everyone could play with anyone, because there was not a huge level gap, the die hard veteran with the very noob just started to play. You got community, a feeling of a living world, where you could just lure at the marketplace to listen carefully at other discussions(no chat channels to serperate the world from the players), where you got meeting points like the blacksmith(no anonym auction houses), where crafters, resource suppliers and adventures come together for a lil talk, a lil roleplaying, and to trade some stuff. A world where it was dangerous to going outside into the wilderness, where pks stand by to rob you, where the adventure was everywhere. Where a full set of armor and weapon was easily afforded with just a few hours of hunting, and come usually from the crafters. Where player houses and player shops were all over the world. Where you usually just belong to beeing there and for a talk or a lil adventure or what ever, but no game plan what you have to do next, what was required from you or all that shit.
Then Everquest come, and introduced a level gap, so it was impossible that a veteran (lvl xx) could even play with a noob (lvl x), well even the areas where divided for said lvl, the world become small and for one simple purpose, to lvl up. No adventures any more, no living world, just a rollacoaster to max level.. and the grind begun. The introduced items appropriate for every level(in UO everyone weared the same stuff.. a plate mail is just a plate mail, isnt it, not with some lvl tagged to it so it becomes something different) and the item grind started. And i could rant endlessly.
And WoW perfected that paradigm, and it would even worst.
I miss the old time.. where mmos meant to be played, and not to be grinded. But as you said, i just clinging to the past, its all over.
Isn't most MMO's build around a certain type of addiction. (Grind/progression/endgame or whatever you call it that makes it reasonable spending 20+ hours a week in a game to get further ahead off the noobs or your friends, trying to stay ahead belonging to certain elite group in the game). I hear an addict asking every day here in a new thread "whats the endgame in GW2?" asking basicly how can i play game that is not giving me my fix?
Guild Wars is taking thesse addictive parts out. And thats just such a great thing for all of us that is not addicted to that kind off Gameplay (or those ready to leave it behind) that have been forced to deal with it if we want to take part of a MMOgame.
But Guild Wars 2 is NOT a game for those who really want to keep that addiction. Its like advertising coffeine free coffee for people who wants coffeine. Don't tell people that they get this FIX in GW2 because they don't.
Tell people what they get instead. If they don't listen , well maybe they are not ready to leave their addiction. You can always ask them to give it a try anyway as it is free to play (wich offcause must be deeply suspicious for an addickt to hear about)
Great post... I'll just caution...sometimes changes aren't for the better. Just change on its own isn't always a good thing.
I think quite a few of the things GW2 is doing are good, and people having an open mind is a very positive thing...but I think in hindsight, some of their decisions will turn out to be duds, and we should feel bad about pointing those out so they can be avoided / averted.
Although I agree that GW2 is making some out of the box decisions I can't say that I agree with the OP that "everyone is equal at max level" is a good thing. This is an interesting way of balancing pvp but my experience has been that most pvp players don't want equality they want to "pawn" their opponents.
What incentive is there to continue playing? Somebody correct me if I am wrong but it seems that at max level the only thing that I can shoot for are more achievements and titles. For some this might be fun but for me, if you are not progressing in either gear or in character points then I lose interest.
I do think that GW2 is doing something that will keep me going after max level for some time - downleveling in dynamic events. I have never heard of this before and I am eager to see how it turns out.
The haters of the game will be what I alwasy called, the gankers, griefers, antisocials(raid guild leaders mainly) , wallet warriors, and most of all, the exploiters(not game exploits, people exploits).
The game will have the best PVP players (real, not gear or gimmik based braggers) all flocking to this game. It will also have people who want to play with people and not those who spend their whole day trying to figure out how to ruin it for other people.
Pretty much, yes! That's exactly the point I've been belabouredly trying to make with TF2 for a long time. Time investments and gimmicks shouldn't rule PvP. Players with tactics, observational skills, quick reflexes with dodging and so on should.
I mean, imagine if you could win at football by grinding for/buying a better foot.
MMORPGs can be very silly about that, and it's why they're not really taken seriously as an eSport. GW1 came close, though, and for good reason. I hope they'll continue to build on that.
The only shift in perception I have over the cash=diamonds=gold possibility is a shift toward an interest in an economics-based pvp based game. While economics-based pvp does interest me, I have only dabbled in it in the past.
There is no reason to believe that players who buy diamonds to sell for gold will be on an even footing with players who have more time to play. The same people who have time to farm the gold to buy the diamonds will also be farming and crafting the vast majority of leveling gear that will go on the AH. So you will buy their gold for diamonds, then you will buy the items they put up on the AH for the gold you just bought from them. It's the circle of getting ripped off for diamond sellers.
As an example, if I do this, I'll rush to level 80, saving gear drops and checking the auction house to see what gear sells, both drops and crafted. I'll also be vendoring trash items as I go for gold. I'll sell you the vendor gold from countless and ridiculous hours spent farming, and then I'll sell you the drops for the gold I just sold you for the diamonds I get to use to buy DLCs. Plus I'll still have gold left over to buy my toon what I want in game. Or if I don't, I can hold onto some of the diamonds I bought from you until inflation sets in and I can get far more gold per diamond than you got from me.
Time wins over cash every time in this system.
Holy crap, this thread is overloaded with win. Another excellent post, and one that should alleviate the fears of the sane crowd at least.
Just keep in mind, gems have one economic purpose... they transfer gold from the players that grind it out to the players that don't, thus they buy gems. You ultimately create a larger pool of people with gold, which increases demand for assorted items, which stimulates and drives the economy.
I am now one of those casual players you speak of due to real life responsibilities.
But you are wrong in thinking there won't be elitism in gw2. It will just come in other forms besides gear stats. It will be displayed in character aesthetics and titles.
To require these will require a time sink. Practice makes perfect. To become one of the best at anything among a group of peers all trying to reach the same goals is going to involve devotion on behalf of the player. You're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.
Furthermore, what's wrong with competition in MMO's? Isn't that why most of us play them... to compete against real people online.
I do agree that MMO's have lost a good deal of the social aspect of online gaming. But I don't see gw2 as the game to bring this back. It's going to be very instanced. People will rush to max level and then stand around queuing. Likely only conversing with guildies. It's going to be an instances lobby game.
it's just like GW with better graphics. the only reason people are getting so excited about it is because it doesn't have subscription. it will play exactly like every single other themepark mmo out there. there will not be 1 single feature that hasn't been tried in some other game.
Although I agree that GW2 is making some out of the box decisions I can't say that I agree with the OP that "everyone is equal at max level" is a good thing. This is an interesting way of balancing pvp but my experience has been that most pvp players don't want equality they want to "pawn" their opponents.
What incentive is there to continue playing? Somebody correct me if I am wrong but it seems that at max level the only thing that I can shoot for are more achievements and titles. For some this might be fun but for me, if you are not progressing in either gear or in character points then I lose interest.
I do think that GW2 is doing something that will keep me going after max level for some time - downleveling in dynamic events. I have never heard of this before and I am eager to see how it turns out.
Im gonna play gw2 for the same reason i play all my other "Video Games" to have fun, everyone feels that they have to be rewarded to have fun, my reward is the enjoyment i get out of playing, and i myself will get more enjoyment from losing or winning close fights then from owning or getting owned which is what happens in gear grind games
I don't My post came out a little more negative than I expected. The OP is right on for what I feel is the most important facet of GW2 - ArenaNet is making some radical changes. I am not one that appreciates change for the sake of change but some of their ideas really have me interested and even those that I don't agree with I am eager to see how they work out.
I only played gw1 at the beginning, so I really don't remember, but there's going to be a divide between people with titles and those without.
I guess the difference is those without will still be on a level playing field. Titles won't give you any in-game advantage. But logic says those with titles will be superior in skill to obtain said titles.
Oh dear ... someone just made instant gratification, lack of long term gameplay incentives and Anet's player conflict avoidance philosophy sound good ... and got away with it!? BM' ing this for future reference. I disagree on almost all parts but I do recognize your speach writing capacities. You could probably sell people bricks for gold bars.
interesting very interesting lol.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Although I agree that GW2 is making some out of the box decisions I can't say that I agree with the OP that "everyone is equal at max level" is a good thing. This is an interesting way of balancing pvp but my experience has been that most pvp players don't want equality they want to "pawn" their opponents.
What incentive is there to continue playing? Somebody correct me if I am wrong but it seems that at max level the only thing that I can shoot for are more achievements and titles. For some this might be fun but for me, if you are not progressing in either gear or in character points then I lose interest.
I do think that GW2 is doing something that will keep me going after max level for some time - downleveling in dynamic events. I have never heard of this before and I am eager to see how it turns out.
The incentive to continue playing, and what ANet is trying to achieve, is simply a game you want to keep playing. Why chase a carrot down the narrow path of endgame, erecting walls behind you to all content prior, when you can make it so the entire world always remains viable and worth experiencing? When you can run level 30 explorer mode dungeons at level 80 and still have your arse handed to you if you're not careful, all to get armor that will be as good as your level 80 armor (actually, you can put your level 80 stats on it) simply because you like the challenge and the look... well, there you go. Your incentive to continue playing is because it's fun, no matter where you are or what level you are.
I would bet anything titles will be used as achievements are looked upon in wow. You can't join so and so pro team if you don't have this or that title proving your skill.
I would bet anything titles will be used as achievements are looked upon in wow. You can't join so and so pro team if you don't have this or that title proving your skill.
1.) It didn't work that way in GW1. I fail to see why it would in GW2.
2.) The only content that requires other people is dungeons, and that's five-man content. If you don't have four other friends at the ready to play a game with you, then just play one of the other types of content available (dynamic events, personal storyline, et cetera).
Entitlement? I'm not entirely sure on your logic here. So people who have the time or skill to do community-driven events, aka raids, somehow either intrinsically entitled or they feel entitled. I could follow you if you mean the former, but judging fromy our particular form of rhetoric you are implying the latter.
Raids these days only take as much time as you want them to. Most of them aren't terribly hard and you can clear them in either one sitting over two to three hours or spend one hour over a couple of nights. One hour isn't that hard to find...hell, two hours isn't that hard to find. Yet, somehow, people that think like you seem to believe the rest of us who spend our FREE time differently feel like we're entitled to some secret club that we don't want you in.
That might be true for some, but it is hardly true for all.
How many hours do you spend per day just putzing around not really doing anything? Any time you spend where you have no concerns that require you to do something is FREE time. How you choose to spend that free time is entirely up to you. If you spend a few hours at the bar with some friends then you're choosing to have fun that way. If you spend an hour or two raiding then you're choosing to have fun that way.
Your views of raiding are horribly flawed and perhaps that's where all of this stems from. You adamantly believe it's just about getting gear and, for some, you might be right. However, for far more people raiding is just about enjoying a common interest with friends and strangers who share that interest. Gear is an afterthought that is just shiney stuff that bosses have fall out of them.
Think of it like almost any single-player game.
I'll use Zelda as a classic example. You play the game because you want to have fun playing the game, not because you want to find dat new shiney sword for dem bigger numberz. So you're playing the game, hitting things in the face, cutting grass, following the story when a giant boss appears!
Boy! What a fun fight that was! Wait...what's this?
A treasure chest?! I wonder what's in it.....
Hey! A new shield that let's me flip monsters up! Sweet!
That's how I, and many others, view raiding in an online game. The item rewards are generally less shiney and impressive than in a single-player game, but when you can organize twenty people to all achieve one common goal there is a very warm, fuzzy feeling that is only just one step below beating another team at your choice of sport. The game devs (hopefully) tried to kill all of you, but your group came out ahead.
Some people will take this too far and snub their nose at anyone who hasn't 'achieved' what they have and, unfortunately, this is a growing group. Perhaps for this reason alone doing away with standard raiding is worthwhile. With that said, though, this isn't 'entitelement' it's just elitism and many modern MMOs are already combating it by shifting raid tiers and providing what has come to be called 'welfare' gear to get people started.
Developers want as many players as possible to see the content they make. It doesn't make any sense to spend money and time making something that only a handful of people will see. The genre today makes it very easy to get "in" to raiding, but it's really up to you if you want to do that. Clearly, for you, you don't. But just keep this in mind:
In earlier days of online gaming it wasn't about gear. It was about playing the game. Then, over time, people came to find really powerful items that made their characters stronger. Some people gathered up a large number of powerful items and their characters became extremely powerful as a result. They then would go around and kill or otherwise impress-upon other players who in turn would want to be that 'uber'. And thus the gear treadmill was born.
Every MMO will have some form of gear treadmill because PLAYERS will create one. Some people will always gather up as many powerful items as they can and, in order to compete, other players will hunt down as many of the same items as they can. You're deluding yourself if you think GW 2 isn't going to have some form of gear treadmill. Leveling, in and of itself, is a form of gear treadmill and last I checked GW 2 has leveling.
But leveling doesn't create a division in the player-base at all, right?
Well... PvP requires other people. This is a PvP game, with a ladder system. And if I understand correctly, PvE will be rated as well through timed events? By nature of design its going to create a divide.
It's like when one can't think of a comeback so he/she throws out his/her "since all else fails" speech lol, very fun obvservation.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Comments
GW2 can easily take away the carrot by offering alternatives to play. The carrot is only useful when the object is to make it interesting to continue to play rendundant content but has a reward to make a person more compeitive.
So when the game becomes less rewarding with time investments, and also less competitive among players to put up with redundant material then the players have to have other reasons to play the game.
Thats why dynamic events will have to be a hit.
Also class story will have to be engaging enough and well written enough as well.
Other wise the content and lack of rewards will feel more of a grind than other games ironically without the familiar grind carrot on the stick. The carrot on the stick is a reason to play.
Part of the reasons to play is to reach end game, and helping with that is of course that competitiveness along the way as well. Then at the end game the competitiveness usually stagnates into nothing becuase the players completed all the content or an insane grind which devs of past or asian MMOs like to do. Which becomes a problem becuase then the end game is not solid/good enough with a carrot on the stick system which works by on making the carrot that much harder to get.
So if GW2 wants to remove the carrot they will have imo, put really interesting story, and leveling mechanics to make it more interesting to get to the end game. Then the end game has to be extensive enough that it offers its own reasons to play end game repeatedly without looking to items as a grind to be competitive and the reason to log in. So, imo, the end game has to include sand box game play as well, and not just instanced sand box gameplay without the crafting as I think GW2 is doing it. For example all the seige equipment, and houses are prebuilt and does not involve crafting which goes against the sand box expectation of that which also sand box MMOs are about equality instead of item rewards. However the problem with sand box MMOs is that they are too demanding of the player without enough content to justify the commitment. So there are variables into a game which immersions and IP(intellectual properties) play a large part in helping that work.
edit: However, the easiest balance and trade-off between sand box, and themepark and still offering equality is by recreating the experiences people are looking for and making it very accessible at the same time. So, in sand box MMOs it requires a lot of organiation (takes a lot of work to achieve something), but themepark is about instant lfg tools and also items as carrot on the stick to add to that sense of achievement. So the mix has to be sand box situations with instant access, and lots of situations or instances to create that feel. That way, this mix avoids the huge time investment of players in crafting be too integral but still being able to play. However, the enconomy is always important, and there has to be ways to make that work as well, which means more trade-offs of between sand box and themepark MMOs.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
All those demos and real players that played those in conventions... tons of beta footage and impression from beta...
I feel sorry for you that you refuse to see it works, and works well, better than any other mmo that is out at the moment.
Just wait a couple of months, and see for yourself.
Great post!
I used to be one of those chasing the next great item, to be able to prance around in it and have others look upon me with awe. But since that I've grown up, I've got a family and less time, and I have been forced to re-think and re-evaluate my thoughts about myself and others and have come to realise that having fun and a great experience in the little time I nowdays have to spend on gaming is more important than feeling that you have to be better than others.
Hope to see you all in GW2.
Oh man, good times they were.
tee hee
Great post !! We are all supposed to say that now right !! Anyway i mean it , and to prove it , i link to my try to say the same
not as elegant, but i had speculated a long time on how to address all thesse "whats the endgame posts" thats keep popping up and is all about angst.
I call it " whats the addiction?" - reposting it here
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4832956#4832956
Isn't most MMO's build around a certain type of addiction. (Grind/progression/endgame or whatever you call it that makes it reasonable spending 20+ hours a week in a game to get further ahead off the noobs or your friends, trying to stay ahead belonging to certain elite group in the game). I hear an addict asking every day here in a new thread "whats the endgame in GW2?" asking basicly how can i play game that is not giving me my fix?
Guild Wars is taking thesse addictive parts out. And thats just such a great thing for all of us that is not addicted to that kind off Gameplay (or those ready to leave it behind) that have been forced to deal with it if we want to take part of a MMOgame.
But Guild Wars 2 is NOT a game for those who really want to keep that addiction. Its like advertising coffeine free coffee for people who wants coffeine. Don't tell people that they get this FIX in GW2 because they don't.
Tell people what they get instead. If they don't listen , well maybe they are not ready to leave their addiction. You can always ask them to give it a try anyway as it is free to play (wich offcause must be deeply suspicious for an addickt to hear about)
Great post... I'll just caution...sometimes changes aren't for the better. Just change on its own isn't always a good thing.
I think quite a few of the things GW2 is doing are good, and people having an open mind is a very positive thing...but I think in hindsight, some of their decisions will turn out to be duds, and we should feel bad about pointing those out so they can be avoided / averted.
Excellent post. I've almost always been a casual gamer and I'm so sick of most of todays MMOs being mostly the same. I'll see you in GW2!
Although I agree that GW2 is making some out of the box decisions I can't say that I agree with the OP that "everyone is equal at max level" is a good thing. This is an interesting way of balancing pvp but my experience has been that most pvp players don't want equality they want to "pawn" their opponents.
What incentive is there to continue playing? Somebody correct me if I am wrong but it seems that at max level the only thing that I can shoot for are more achievements and titles. For some this might be fun but for me, if you are not progressing in either gear or in character points then I lose interest.
I do think that GW2 is doing something that will keep me going after max level for some time - downleveling in dynamic events. I have never heard of this before and I am eager to see how it turns out.
Bravo! This post hits it head on.
The haters of the game will be what I alwasy called, the gankers, griefers, antisocials(raid guild leaders mainly) , wallet warriors, and most of all, the exploiters(not game exploits, people exploits).
The game will have the best PVP players (real, not gear or gimmik based braggers) all flocking to this game. It will also have people who want to play with people and not those who spend their whole day trying to figure out how to ruin it for other people.
@tordurbar
TF2 has an equal power plateau. Why continue playing TF2?
@Bunks
Pretty much, yes! That's exactly the point I've been belabouredly trying to make with TF2 for a long time. Time investments and gimmicks shouldn't rule PvP. Players with tactics, observational skills, quick reflexes with dodging and so on should.
I mean, imagine if you could win at football by grinding for/buying a better foot.
MMORPGs can be very silly about that, and it's why they're not really taken seriously as an eSport. GW1 came close, though, and for good reason. I hope they'll continue to build on that.
Holy crap, this thread is overloaded with win. Another excellent post, and one that should alleviate the fears of the sane crowd at least.
Just keep in mind, gems have one economic purpose... they transfer gold from the players that grind it out to the players that don't, thus they buy gems. You ultimately create a larger pool of people with gold, which increases demand for assorted items, which stimulates and drives the economy.
Oderint, dum metuant.
But you are wrong in thinking there won't be elitism in gw2. It will just come in other forms besides gear stats. It will be displayed in character aesthetics and titles.
To require these will require a time sink. Practice makes perfect. To become one of the best at anything among a group of peers all trying to reach the same goals is going to involve devotion on behalf of the player. You're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.
Furthermore, what's wrong with competition in MMO's? Isn't that why most of us play them... to compete against real people online.
I do agree that MMO's have lost a good deal of the social aspect of online gaming. But I don't see gw2 as the game to bring this back. It's going to be very instanced. People will rush to max level and then stand around queuing. Likely only conversing with guildies. It's going to be an instances lobby game.
GW2 has absolutely nothing new or innovative.
nothing.
it's just like GW with better graphics. the only reason people are getting so excited about it is because it doesn't have subscription. it will play exactly like every single other themepark mmo out there. there will not be 1 single feature that hasn't been tried in some other game.
@drakaena
People tried elitism through those in GW1.
Didn't work.
Same for Champions Online, really.
Im gonna play gw2 for the same reason i play all my other "Video Games" to have fun, everyone feels that they have to be rewarded to have fun, my reward is the enjoyment i get out of playing, and i myself will get more enjoyment from losing or winning close fights then from owning or getting owned which is what happens in gear grind games
I don't
My post came out a little more negative than I expected. The OP is right on for what I feel is the most important facet of GW2 - ArenaNet is making some radical changes. I am not one that appreciates change for the sake of change but some of their ideas really have me interested and even those that I don't agree with I am eager to see how they work out.
I guess the difference is those without will still be on a level playing field. Titles won't give you any in-game advantage. But logic says those with titles will be superior in skill to obtain said titles.
interesting very interesting lol.I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
The incentive to continue playing, and what ANet is trying to achieve, is simply a game you want to keep playing. Why chase a carrot down the narrow path of endgame, erecting walls behind you to all content prior, when you can make it so the entire world always remains viable and worth experiencing? When you can run level 30 explorer mode dungeons at level 80 and still have your arse handed to you if you're not careful, all to get armor that will be as good as your level 80 armor (actually, you can put your level 80 stats on it) simply because you like the challenge and the look... well, there you go. Your incentive to continue playing is because it's fun, no matter where you are or what level you are.
Oderint, dum metuant.
1.) It didn't work that way in GW1. I fail to see why it would in GW2.
2.) The only content that requires other people is dungeons, and that's five-man content. If you don't have four other friends at the ready to play a game with you, then just play one of the other types of content available (dynamic events, personal storyline, et cetera).
Entitlement? I'm not entirely sure on your logic here. So people who have the time or skill to do community-driven events, aka raids, somehow either intrinsically entitled or they feel entitled. I could follow you if you mean the former, but judging fromy our particular form of rhetoric you are implying the latter.
Raids these days only take as much time as you want them to. Most of them aren't terribly hard and you can clear them in either one sitting over two to three hours or spend one hour over a couple of nights. One hour isn't that hard to find...hell, two hours isn't that hard to find. Yet, somehow, people that think like you seem to believe the rest of us who spend our FREE time differently feel like we're entitled to some secret club that we don't want you in.
That might be true for some, but it is hardly true for all.
How many hours do you spend per day just putzing around not really doing anything? Any time you spend where you have no concerns that require you to do something is FREE time. How you choose to spend that free time is entirely up to you. If you spend a few hours at the bar with some friends then you're choosing to have fun that way. If you spend an hour or two raiding then you're choosing to have fun that way.
Your views of raiding are horribly flawed and perhaps that's where all of this stems from. You adamantly believe it's just about getting gear and, for some, you might be right. However, for far more people raiding is just about enjoying a common interest with friends and strangers who share that interest. Gear is an afterthought that is just shiney stuff that bosses have fall out of them.
Think of it like almost any single-player game.
I'll use Zelda as a classic example. You play the game because you want to have fun playing the game, not because you want to find dat new shiney sword for dem bigger numberz. So you're playing the game, hitting things in the face, cutting grass, following the story when a giant boss appears!
Boy! What a fun fight that was! Wait...what's this?
A treasure chest?! I wonder what's in it.....
Hey! A new shield that let's me flip monsters up! Sweet!
That's how I, and many others, view raiding in an online game. The item rewards are generally less shiney and impressive than in a single-player game, but when you can organize twenty people to all achieve one common goal there is a very warm, fuzzy feeling that is only just one step below beating another team at your choice of sport. The game devs (hopefully) tried to kill all of you, but your group came out ahead.
Some people will take this too far and snub their nose at anyone who hasn't 'achieved' what they have and, unfortunately, this is a growing group. Perhaps for this reason alone doing away with standard raiding is worthwhile. With that said, though, this isn't 'entitelement' it's just elitism and many modern MMOs are already combating it by shifting raid tiers and providing what has come to be called 'welfare' gear to get people started.
Developers want as many players as possible to see the content they make. It doesn't make any sense to spend money and time making something that only a handful of people will see. The genre today makes it very easy to get "in" to raiding, but it's really up to you if you want to do that. Clearly, for you, you don't. But just keep this in mind:
In earlier days of online gaming it wasn't about gear. It was about playing the game. Then, over time, people came to find really powerful items that made their characters stronger. Some people gathered up a large number of powerful items and their characters became extremely powerful as a result. They then would go around and kill or otherwise impress-upon other players who in turn would want to be that 'uber'. And thus the gear treadmill was born.
Every MMO will have some form of gear treadmill because PLAYERS will create one. Some people will always gather up as many powerful items as they can and, in order to compete, other players will hunt down as many of the same items as they can. You're deluding yourself if you think GW 2 isn't going to have some form of gear treadmill. Leveling, in and of itself, is a form of gear treadmill and last I checked GW 2 has leveling.
But leveling doesn't create a division in the player-base at all, right?
It's like when one can't think of a comeback so he/she throws out his/her "since all else fails" speech lol, very fun obvservation.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.