FYI: I don't think you were seriously proposing this because if you were then you probably have a limited knowledge of the EVE Community. Suffice to say this would be suicide for CCP hence it will never happen.
Who said anything about replacing EVE?
I just think there'd be a ton of players interested in taking EVE's combat system and making a solid PVP game out of it. Instead of making the majority of actual EVE gameplay as devoid of excitement as possible which is the main reason the game deflects so many players.
I know I would try that. Again, leaving Eve the way it is but having a separate PvP training game.
Originally posted by googlemo would you like to play such a difficult and challenging game?
P.S. if you have some titles in mind write about them, but with as much information as possible.
The problem is that any newbies are just cannon fodder to veteran players. I've seen this in action - there's no incentive for new, low-geared players to head out into open PvP zones. They last 3 seconds when a much better geared, higher level player crushes them. If you introduce "safety zones" that have no PvP you're not actually fixing things, merely delaying the endless ganking for a few levels.
Eve Online is as good as it gets, and other PvP systems are just ineptly handled.
hm... thats not a very good game, PK is a very good point of games you shouldn't abolish it just like that. In the genre that I concerned about you can PK anyone, and if you die you lose ALOT, for example your character 78lvl, to get your character from 78 to 79 you have to grind for about 100hours, and when someone kills you, you lose around 5% or 5 hours of your grind!
I totally disagree. PKing should NEVER be the point of an MMORPG. Thats the point of an FPS. PvP should be a very exciting and possible PART of the experience but it should not be the focus. The PvP should support the overall game.
So yeah, PKing is a very exciting and enjoyable PART of a sandbox game, but it should never be "the point" of it.
That depends on how it's implemented.
You're thinking of PvP strictly in terms of "players fighting other players". There are other forms of PvP that don't involve direct combat at all, such as player politics. There are forms of PvP that can be grounded in PvE combat, things which influence the state of competition in the world.
The trouble with many, even most PvP systems these days is they're very 2 dimensional. Very shallow and tacked-on in some cases.
In its prime especially, Lineage 2 managed this very well. PvP was pervasive throughout that game. If you weren't directly fighting other players or sieging a castle, you were likely engaged in an activity that could affect the political balance and influence PvP or castle sieges in some form or another. Even grinding mobs in that game, a very PvE type of activity, yielded assets that could influence the balance of power in some way. It's the one thing NC Soft got very right with that game and I wish I saw more MMOs have that deep a system. I hope TERA will cover that area well enough. I miss the ever-changing landscape of that game's balance of power or influence in the game.
So, to me, if we're talking about a game that's essentially Unreal Tournament in a large virtual environment, yeah. That's not so great an idea. You're practically describing Darkfall there.
If it's a fully fleshed out PvP system from which much of the game's content and gameplay is rooted, and it's done well, then there's something worth talking about. If you're going to make a game based around PvP, then go big and do it right.
nope, and it could never work as more than a niche game.
reason is simple - ppl are jerks and when they get a chance, even 1 can destroy gaming experience for a lot of ppl. and would they (me) play a game where they have to deal with people's jerkiness?
My belief has always been that such games inevitably destroy themselves because once people start getting emotionally invested in their success and failure, the community sorts itself out into winners and losers and the losers slowly get driven out of the game while the winners sit atop the dwindling pyramid, happy all the way down the slide.
But, aside from ancedotes, I don't have any proof that this is really how it works. I'd love to see some sort of deep analysis of an open-PvP game's metrics to try to identify the large-scale social dynamics of how players move through the power structures of such a game and whether there is any correlation between success/failure in the game and people reaching break points where they quit.
The best FFA pvp MMOS I've played so far are Lineage 1 and Lineage 2(pre-GoD), both games have the best pk-clan war system. For those who don't know anything about it and think that world pvp is chaotic -gankfest:
There are 2 situations in Lineage:
1 - Situation 1: player A meets player B and both of them are not at war(none of them belong to a clan or their clans are not at war), so there is no reason for player A attacks player B, but if it happens:
a) Player A wants to attack player B, player A attacks and its name color(white name) changes to purple(it means player A opened flag),
b) if player B decides to fight back, and player B attacks A, its name also changes to purple, so both players are with purple names, if it happens, so no matter who wins, nobody will become pk, the winner just keep purple for some time and after its name becomes white again(while whe winner is in purple name, any other player can kill him without becoming pk, because what I said before will repeat).
c) But if player B doesn't want to fight back, and player A kills B, it means that a purple name(A) killed a white name(B), so player A will become PK(red name) and A will gain karma, A needs to kill monsters in order to become a white name again. Because any player can kill a PK, no matter if the pk attacks or not, and if a pk dies, he can drop some item-gear. usually a pk is helped by its clan mates, that kill him until his name becomes white agin, and pick his drops and give them to him again.
2 - Situation 2: player A meets player B and both of them belong to enemy clans that are at war:
So, no matter who kills, you can kill him with no mercy, even if the player doesn't want to fight back, nobody will become pk, because their clan are at war(it's llike if 2 players of rival factions meet each other)
As lineage is focused in clan war all over the world, players are free to make their alliances and to make anemies(unlike a faction game, where there are always 2 static factions, in L2 there can be many "factions" and everything can change, I've seen small allianges becoming a big one and a great alliance breaking up into smaller enemy ones. Everything is dinamic.
Sieges(political system) and pve resources(like world bosses) are the reason of the clan wars, alliances usually fight all over the world for good pve spot and open bosses, like Baium, this boss has 1 week respawn, so 1 day before Baium respawns again, ToI floor 13 is a scene of blood, where enemy alliances are fighting for this boss as you can see in this video:
FYI: I don't think you were seriously proposing this because if you were then you probably have a limited knowledge of the EVE Community. Suffice to say this would be suicide for CCP hence it will never happen.
Who said anything about replacing EVE?
I just think there'd be a ton of players interested in taking EVE's combat system and making a solid PVP game out of it. Instead of making the majority of actual EVE gameplay as devoid of excitement as possible which is the main reason the game deflects so many players.
I know I would try that. Again, leaving Eve the way it is but having a separate PvP training game.
I've heard similar suggestions from alliance-mates, mostly after a fruitless night of hunting and finding that no one within 20 jumps is willing to engage our 40-man roaming fleet. Its not a bad idea so long as it doesn't take away from the bigger picture.
The best FFA pvp MMOS I've played so far are Lineage 1 and Lineage 2(pre-GoD), both games have the best pk-clan war system. For those who don't know anything about it and think that world pvp is chaotic -gankfest:
There are 2 situations in Lineage:
1 - Situation 1: player A meets player B and both of them are not at war(none of them belong to a clan or their clans are not at war), so there is no reason for player A attacks player B, but if it happens:
a) Player A wants to attack player B, player A attacks and its name color(white name) changes to purple(it means player A opened flag),
b) if player B decides to fight back, and player B attacks A, its name also changes to purple, so both players are with purple names, if it happens, so no matter who wins, nobody will become pk, the winner just keep purple for some time and after its name becomes white again(while whe winner is in purple name, any other player can kill him without becoming pk, because what I said before will repeat).
c) But if player B doesn't want to fight back, and player A kills B, it means that a purple name(A) killed a white name(B), so player A will become PK(red name) and A will gain karma, A needs to kill monsters in order to become a white name again. Because any player can kill a PK, no matter if the pk attacks or not, and if a pk dies, he can drop some item-gear. usually a pk is helped by its clan mates, that kill him until his name becomes white agin, and pick his drops and give them to him again.
2 - Situation 2: player A meets player B and both of them belong to enemy clans that are at war:
So, no matter who kills, you can kill him with no mercy, even if the player doesn't want to fight back, nobody will become pk, because their clan are at war(it's llike if 2 players of rival factions meet each other)
As lineage is focused in clan war all over the world, players are free to make their alliances and to make anemies(unlike a faction game, where there are always 2 static factions, in L2 there can be many "factions" and everything can change, I've seen small allianges becoming a big one and a great alliance breaking up into smaller enemy ones. Everything is dinamic.
Sieges(political system) and pve resources(like world bosses) are the reason of the clan wars, alliances usually fight all over the world for good pve spot and open bosses, like Baium, this boss has 1 week respawn, so 1 day before Baium respawns again, ToI floor 13 is a scene of blood, where enemy alliances are fighting for this boss as you can see in this video:
sounds somewhat similar to EVE. If a pirate kills a miner in hi-sec then they gain a ngeative security rating and must kill npc pirates to gain it back.
Hard open RVR? Yes, its one of my dream ideas for a mmorpg.
Hard open pvp?? If sandbox yes.
Hard open RVR with PVP? No, Pvp would hurt alot the RVR part. Your magic, sword being able to hurt players from your side? Yes, maybe. Being able to be easily play as a criminal, no.
I don't think that there is a mmorpg created yet that caters for what i want. Do i want some form of perma-death? Yes. Simply because i want my game world to be as open and dynamic as possible. I started playing mmorpg's, because i thought they would be like the pen and paper rpg's i played when i was younger. Your character could get killed, but had the chance of being resurected. This came with a penalty, like losing a level. However, mmo's are easy games. At least since WoW came along. The genre is based on a time sink formula, simply to keep us playing and paying. That's why i cannot stand boring grinding for hours on end. Give me a dynamic, fantasy world where everyone is not just a hero or villian, but whatever they want to be. I think CracMonki's idea was a good one. At the moment, i guess i am looking for something like an mmorpg Oblivion, but where the npc's were actual players. Where simple programming scripts could allow players to create their own quests. Also, if i wanted to take part in proper storylines, i could find the right npc's to trigger them. Pvp in a massive environment with permadeath would be great, but as it is such a turn off for most players, i would have specific servers, like the hardcore one on diablo 2. Wish there was a game like this, but so far all i've found were in games like lineage 2, which i did not like because it was just a pure grind, and worse, it was populated mostly with bots.
All around us nowdays carebear games such as everquest, Runes of magic, Allods online, RIFT, aion, wow, even lineage 2 became like this with only difference in hard core grind. So my question is this, would you like to play a game with hard open world PVP(such as lineage 2) with real risks on stake(if you're killed by another player you lose a considerate amount of XP or maybe some loot) but that game should also inspire pvp, for example for you to achieve better equipment or a better place for grind you will have no choice but to fight over it, cause only a small amount of people can have access to it? Also a game WITHOUT freaking instances!!!
And once again, would you like to play such a difficult and challenging game?
P.S. if you have some titles in mind write about them, but with as much information as possible.
i don't really care if a game is PvP or PvE based, sandbox or themepark.
I want a good game, the problem with PvP games is that they rarely are good, games like that needs to have unique mechanics made for PvP, not just slightly modified PvE mechanics.
So yes I would but not any game, it would need to be good. Bugs are way more annoying when you play against other players and so are badly made mechanics.
All around us nowdays carebear games such as everquest, Runes of magic, Allods online, RIFT, aion, wow, even lineage 2 became like this with only difference in hard core grind. So my question is this, would you like to play a game with hard open world PVP(such as lineage 2) with real risks on stake(if you're killed by another player you lose a considerate amount of XP or maybe some loot) but that game should also inspire pvp, for example for you to achieve better equipment or a better place for grind you will have no choice but to fight over it, cause only a small amount of people can have access to it? Also a game WITHOUT freaking instances!!!
And once again, would you like to play such a difficult and challenging game?
P.S. if you have some titles in mind write about them, but with as much information as possible.
Heyho, i disagree with you, when you write Runes of Magic as a carebear-MMo. Ok, now it is one, but in Open Beta and the first 2 chapters i really loved it's PvP (on a PvP-Server of course).
At the beginning, you were neutral (white) and with level 15 you could activate "PK" and kill everybody over level 15, you wanted (of course only, if he wouldnt kill you first ). If you killed white or blue (the good) ones, you got red and got a bad reputation (as more kills, as worse your reputation). if you killed red (the evil) ones, you got positive reputation. Everybody had a chance to drop something out of his bag or equipment. As higher your positive reputation, as lower your droprate, as higher your negative, as higher your droprate. They planned to implement some boni for good and evil players, too, but it never came into the game (ok, one week in open beta). Red players were attacked by the city-guards, too.
It was a lot of fun, but with chapter 3 all changed. Guards everywhere you couldnt level as a red player. With chapter 4 they implemented, that white players dont drop anymore. This was the end of the open pvp in Runes of Magic.
But the problem with open pvp i saw in Runes of Magic and i saw in Bounty Hounds Online, too. BHO had nearly the same system as Runes of Magic, but there were players, who used powers, to gank weaker players. So they deactivated the pvp. Like in RoM, where many high players used red twinks to farm lowlevel players or other players in loading screens.
The problem on open-PvP is not the open-PvP. I really like it, if it would be possible, i would play RoM like it was in Open Beta or Chapter I. But the problem are often the players who try to use this system on very unfair ways. Thats the reason, why there is nowhere open PvP in any games. Because stupid players destroy it!
All around us nowdays carebear games such as everquest, Runes of magic, Allods online, RIFT, aion, wow, even lineage 2 became like this with only difference in hard core grind. So my question is this, would you like to play a game with hard open world PVP(such as lineage 2) with real risks on stake(if you're killed by another player you lose a considerate amount of XP or maybe some loot) but that game should also inspire pvp, for example for you to achieve better equipment or a better place for grind you will have no choice but to fight over it, cause only a small amount of people can have access to it? Also a game WITHOUT freaking instances!!!
And once again, would you like to play such a difficult and challenging game?
P.S. if you have some titles in mind write about them, but with as much information as possible.
actually..
no
despite the fact that my favorite game is exactly that but its my favorite for just about every aspect of the game execpt for that.
and I really dont care about instances or not. I dont want developers going to great lengths to put my ice cream in a cup instead of a cone, its not that big of a deal.
I do however, want clan holdings, clan level crafting, seige mechanics
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Isn't that what Darkfall was supposed to be (except half the playerbase was cheating)......Actually I'd prefer a good PVE MMORPG that has zero PVP and focuses 100% on PVE.
A lot of it has to do with how crowded it is . .. FFA PVP in an open world is definitely my favorite but I do not like it when the areas are so small with only one entrance/exit (think AOC) or when there is no thrill from winning or rage from dying. If its not full-loot than hopefully it has some other reason that you really do not want to die (like a title for bragging rights or how Vanguard did infamy for example). Why any PVP game doesn't have some grand title that is hard to obtain and even harder to hold is beyond me .. . aren't you competing with people? It feels nice to have something special to show off sometimes but having some rare gear or some title that you can get from mindlessly grinding (like Gladiator in Guildwars for example) does not quite do the same thing as something that other players can take from you that has nothing to do with wealth or how long you have played the game.
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
Comments
I know I would try that. Again, leaving Eve the way it is but having a separate PvP training game.
Reminds me of this old suggestion I made.
There was there fun, but difficult Shadowbane game and more recently the defunct Faxion game.
Very low population in the game, but liked the pvp before the constant changes and largest guilds leaving the game forever.
Actually liked that game and the pvp where I got to kill some THC players with the help of HOA players.
The closest thing to a pvp game I've been playing now is Dungeon Defenders and mainly pve. (as pvp is completely unbalanced due to hacks galore)
if you have some titles in mind write about them, but with as much information as possible.
The problem is that any newbies are just cannon fodder to veteran players. I've seen this in action - there's no incentive for new, low-geared players to head out into open PvP zones. They last 3 seconds when a much better geared, higher level player crushes them. If you introduce "safety zones" that have no PvP you're not actually fixing things, merely delaying the endless ganking for a few levels.
Eve Online is as good as it gets, and other PvP systems are just ineptly handled.
I would.
That depends on how it's implemented.
You're thinking of PvP strictly in terms of "players fighting other players". There are other forms of PvP that don't involve direct combat at all, such as player politics. There are forms of PvP that can be grounded in PvE combat, things which influence the state of competition in the world.
The trouble with many, even most PvP systems these days is they're very 2 dimensional. Very shallow and tacked-on in some cases.
In its prime especially, Lineage 2 managed this very well. PvP was pervasive throughout that game. If you weren't directly fighting other players or sieging a castle, you were likely engaged in an activity that could affect the political balance and influence PvP or castle sieges in some form or another. Even grinding mobs in that game, a very PvE type of activity, yielded assets that could influence the balance of power in some way. It's the one thing NC Soft got very right with that game and I wish I saw more MMOs have that deep a system. I hope TERA will cover that area well enough. I miss the ever-changing landscape of that game's balance of power or influence in the game.
So, to me, if we're talking about a game that's essentially Unreal Tournament in a large virtual environment, yeah. That's not so great an idea. You're practically describing Darkfall there.
If it's a fully fleshed out PvP system from which much of the game's content and gameplay is rooted, and it's done well, then there's something worth talking about. If you're going to make a game based around PvP, then go big and do it right.
nope, and it could never work as more than a niche game.
reason is simple - ppl are jerks and when they get a chance, even 1 can destroy gaming experience for a lot of ppl. and would they (me) play a game where they have to deal with people's jerkiness?
My belief has always been that such games inevitably destroy themselves because once people start getting emotionally invested in their success and failure, the community sorts itself out into winners and losers and the losers slowly get driven out of the game while the winners sit atop the dwindling pyramid, happy all the way down the slide.
But, aside from ancedotes, I don't have any proof that this is really how it works. I'd love to see some sort of deep analysis of an open-PvP game's metrics to try to identify the large-scale social dynamics of how players move through the power structures of such a game and whether there is any correlation between success/failure in the game and people reaching break points where they quit.
The best FFA pvp MMOS I've played so far are Lineage 1 and Lineage 2(pre-GoD), both games have the best pk-clan war system. For those who don't know anything about it and think that world pvp is chaotic -gankfest:
There are 2 situations in Lineage:
1 - Situation 1: player A meets player B and both of them are not at war(none of them belong to a clan or their clans are not at war), so there is no reason for player A attacks player B, but if it happens:
a) Player A wants to attack player B, player A attacks and its name color(white name) changes to purple(it means player A opened flag),
b) if player B decides to fight back, and player B attacks A, its name also changes to purple, so both players are with purple names, if it happens, so no matter who wins, nobody will become pk, the winner just keep purple for some time and after its name becomes white again(while whe winner is in purple name, any other player can kill him without becoming pk, because what I said before will repeat).
c) But if player B doesn't want to fight back, and player A kills B, it means that a purple name(A) killed a white name(B), so player A will become PK(red name) and A will gain karma, A needs to kill monsters in order to become a white name again. Because any player can kill a PK, no matter if the pk attacks or not, and if a pk dies, he can drop some item-gear. usually a pk is helped by its clan mates, that kill him until his name becomes white agin, and pick his drops and give them to him again.
2 - Situation 2: player A meets player B and both of them belong to enemy clans that are at war:
So, no matter who kills, you can kill him with no mercy, even if the player doesn't want to fight back, nobody will become pk, because their clan are at war(it's llike if 2 players of rival factions meet each other)
As lineage is focused in clan war all over the world, players are free to make their alliances and to make anemies(unlike a faction game, where there are always 2 static factions, in L2 there can be many "factions" and everything can change, I've seen small allianges becoming a big one and a great alliance breaking up into smaller enemy ones. Everything is dinamic.
Sieges(political system) and pve resources(like world bosses) are the reason of the clan wars, alliances usually fight all over the world for good pve spot and open bosses, like Baium, this boss has 1 week respawn, so 1 day before Baium respawns again, ToI floor 13 is a scene of blood, where enemy alliances are fighting for this boss as you can see in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ07qYDvuBA
I've heard similar suggestions from alliance-mates, mostly after a fruitless night of hunting and finding that no one within 20 jumps is willing to engage our 40-man roaming fleet. Its not a bad idea so long as it doesn't take away from the bigger picture.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
sounds somewhat similar to EVE. If a pirate kills a miner in hi-sec then they gain a ngeative security rating and must kill npc pirates to gain it back.
Currently bored with MMO's.
Would you like a hard open PVP mmorpg?
Hard open RVR? Yes, its one of my dream ideas for a mmorpg.
Hard open pvp?? If sandbox yes.
Hard open RVR with PVP? No, Pvp would hurt alot the RVR part. Your magic, sword being able to hurt players from your side? Yes, maybe. Being able to be easily play as a criminal, no.
i don't really care if a game is PvP or PvE based, sandbox or themepark.
I want a good game, the problem with PvP games is that they rarely are good, games like that needs to have unique mechanics made for PvP, not just slightly modified PvE mechanics.
So yes I would but not any game, it would need to be good. Bugs are way more annoying when you play against other players and so are badly made mechanics.
Heyho, i disagree with you, when you write Runes of Magic as a carebear-MMo. Ok, now it is one, but in Open Beta and the first 2 chapters i really loved it's PvP (on a PvP-Server of course).
At the beginning, you were neutral (white) and with level 15 you could activate "PK" and kill everybody over level 15, you wanted (of course only, if he wouldnt kill you first
). If you killed white or blue (the good) ones, you got red and got a bad reputation (as more kills, as worse your reputation). if you killed red (the evil) ones, you got positive reputation. Everybody had a chance to drop something out of his bag or equipment. As higher your positive reputation, as lower your droprate, as higher your negative, as higher your droprate. They planned to implement some boni for good and evil players, too, but it never came into the game (ok, one week in open beta). Red players were attacked by the city-guards, too.
It was a lot of fun, but with chapter 3 all changed. Guards everywhere you couldnt level as a red player. With chapter 4 they implemented, that white players dont drop anymore. This was the end of the open pvp in Runes of Magic.
But the problem with open pvp i saw in Runes of Magic and i saw in Bounty Hounds Online, too. BHO had nearly the same system as Runes of Magic, but there were players, who used powers, to gank weaker players. So they deactivated the pvp. Like in RoM, where many high players used red twinks to farm lowlevel players or other players in loading screens.
The problem on open-PvP is not the open-PvP. I really like it, if it would be possible, i would play RoM like it was in Open Beta or Chapter I. But the problem are often the players who try to use this system on very unfair ways. Thats the reason, why there is nowhere open PvP in any games. Because stupid players destroy it!
Greets Niffi
actually..
no
despite the fact that my favorite game is exactly that but its my favorite for just about every aspect of the game execpt for that.
and I really dont care about instances or not. I dont want developers going to great lengths to put my ice cream in a cup instead of a cone, its not that big of a deal.
I do however, want clan holdings, clan level crafting, seige mechanics
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Isn't that what Darkfall was supposed to be (except half the playerbase was cheating)......Actually I'd prefer a good PVE MMORPG that has zero PVP and focuses 100% on PVE.
A lot of it has to do with how crowded it is . .. FFA PVP in an open world is definitely my favorite but I do not like it when the areas are so small with only one entrance/exit (think AOC) or when there is no thrill from winning or rage from dying. If its not full-loot than hopefully it has some other reason that you really do not want to die (like a title for bragging rights or how Vanguard did infamy for example). Why any PVP game doesn't have some grand title that is hard to obtain and even harder to hold is beyond me .. . aren't you competing with people? It feels nice to have something special to show off sometimes but having some rare gear or some title that you can get from mindlessly grinding (like Gladiator in Guildwars for example) does not quite do the same thing as something that other players can take from you that has nothing to do with wealth or how long you have played the game.
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA