I used to be totally against this but now i think it's neccessary.
Say there are two types of player, hardcore and casual, where hardcore is defined as wanting to be at the "top" i.e. max level with the best gear, and further say the two groups are also sub-divided between those with hightime and lowtime. Hightime and lowtime casuals can enjoy the game because they're casual - they're not really aiming at a fixed point so as long as there's plenty of stuff to do and lots of distractions they can be entertained. Hightime hardcore players - whether for endgame raiding or pvp - can also get to where they want to be because they have the time.
The only group that can't get where they want to be are the lowtime hardcores. One answer to that is "tough t***y" but if they can't get what they want they'll engage in forum pvp pretending to be casuals to try and the levelling part of the game dumbed down to the point where someone with a low amount of time can still get to max level fast. Much easier to just let them buy exp pots and leave the base game alone.
Time skippers... yes and no. If you're launching a game, time skippers can equal power. In WoW, you get plenty of monetary power out of being the first to obtain a crafting recipe. You're the only guy that can craft something, ergo you can charge ridiculous amounts of gold per craft because players can't get it anywhere else. If you're time-skipping with cash shop items so that you're one of the only people in a given amount of time that can get an item like this, and you happen to get lucky enough to get such a crafting recipe quickly, I can see time-skippers equating to power. You got that crafting recipe first because you power-leveled yourself up there.
Beyond that extreme, I don't really see the correlation.
EDIT: Now, if you're talking about grindfests where stats = power and it's a PvP-heavy game, then that's different.
Now Playing: Mission Against Terror, Battlefield 3, Skyrim, Dark Souls, League of Legends, Minecraft, and the piano. =3
The real truth is that we simply don't how the cash shop will effect the game, but those concerned that a poorly implemented (or very strongly implemented) cash shop can break the game for a lot of players.
I am one of those players that like to compete but I do work a full time job so my game time is limited. I can tell you that this cash shop design does not help me at all, even though ArenaNet says it should.
I know that I'm not going to get as far as a person with no job that plays twice as much as me, which is fine. But when a player that plays twice as much a me can also use the cash shop to further boost their advantage even further that ruins my experience. I like to know that if someone is higher level or better geared, or is rich that he must be a better player than me, and I'm fine with that. Now I'll just wonder if said player simply brought their advantage. At the same time I level pretty fast considering my limited playtime and I don't want people accusing me of cheating through cash shop item. This cash shop is going to lead to a lot of unnecessary drama, which also ruins the social aspects for me.
For people that enjoys the social and competitive aspects of MMOs the prescence of buying an sort of advantage through currency and not gameplay itself, cheapens the experience for me and a lot of other players.
A lot of rambling for nothing. Explain to me how someone hitting the level cap sooner than you gives them that much of an advantage? There will always be someone better than you no matter what. I could understand people getting worried if they were selling items or stuff only obtainable via gems (which isn't the case), but obviously people have no clue what the definition of "pay 2 win" is.
That's like telling someone they can't play more than 2 hours because that's all the time you have, and if they do they'd be at an advantage, which they wouldn't really. MMORPG weren't meant to be races to level cap.
For people like the OP, it's a competition. They just haven't realize that the players they are racing against neither know nor care about their imaginary race.
Yep, compete in PvE leveling with all of those people that are on your team in WvWvW PvP. If they get to level 80 first, they will always be better than everyone else. Forever, period.
In PvP, everyone is the same level. 80. It doesnt matter if you are level 1. If you enter PvP you are 80.
And that lvl 1 will still be at dis advantge due to lack of skills that lvl 80 guys has and also his gear which would be obviously better than what he is wearing. So it is not all that balanced as you are trying to make it appear.
Let's take this idea to its logical conclusion... pay to be max level. Who would be willing to pay to start at max level? It sounds like it's defeating the purpose of the game.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
RPGs are about character progression. You win by progressing your character and completing content in order to move onto the next content. Paying extra to expediate character progression or bypass content is therefore paying to win.
Let's take this idea to its logical conclusion... pay to be max level. Who would be willing to pay to start at max level? It sounds like it's defeating the purpose of the game.
depends completely on the game. In GW2 for example it wouldn't do you a single bit of good.
if you buy an xp potion for a game that levels your skills to the pve and pvp zone/dungeon you are in, requires that you level skills via gameplay/the use of weapons initial skills (no trainers) and has no REAL gear score improvements to speak of, and whose content is almost ALL open world random events then you end up with wasted money. So really it's completely dependant on game.
Besides none of these potions make you instantly a max level nor do they instantly give you the best gear. People whine too much about this subject.
Let's take this idea to its logical conclusion... pay to be max level. Who would be willing to pay to start at max level? It sounds like it's defeating the purpose of the game.
Extreme case != logical conclusion.
The ability to BUY a potion so that you spend 8 hours, instread of 10 hours to level, is obvously very different from spending 0 hours.
And whether it defeats the purpose of the game, depends on the purpose. If someone's purpose is to raid at max level, it does not defeat the purpose of the game. If his purpose is to enjoy the sights while leveling, it does.
You need to realize that the "purpose" is different for different players.
A lot of rambling for nothing. Explain to me how someone hitting the level cap sooner than you gives them that much of an advantage? There will always be someone better than you no matter what. I could understand people getting worried if they were selling items or stuff only obtainable via gems (which isn't the case), but obviously people have no clue what the definition of "pay 2 win" is.
That's like telling someone they can't play more than 2 hours because that's all the time you have, and if they do they'd be at an advantage, which they wouldn't really. MMORPG weren't meant to be races to level cap.
For people like the OP, it's a competition. They just haven't realize that the players they are racing against neither know nor care about their imaginary race.
Yep, compete in PvE leveling with all of those people that are on your team in WvWvW PvP. If they get to level 80 first, they will always be better than everyone else. Forever, period.
In PvP, everyone is the same level. 80. It doesnt matter if you are level 1. If you enter PvP you are 80.
And that lvl 1 will still be at dis advantge due to lack of skills that lvl 80 guys has and also his gear which would be obviously better than what he is wearing. So it is not all that balanced as you are trying to make it appear.
To clarify the person you were referring to, and the developers have said this MANY times, in COMPETITIVE PvP Everything is balanced, you are level 80, have all of your skills unlocked, level 80 equivalent gear is placed into your inventory (you are not allowed to keep it), you have all your traits, you practically ARE a level 80. However, where you are correct is in WvWvW PvP which they stated "It isn't meant to be fair".
To be honest, how much does gear/level scaling matter in WvWvW if youre in a group of 5 versus a group of 40? Yes, balancing is good, and yes, they have been balancing the gear/stats where it counts (competitively) but in the "sideshow" PvP, or the PvP that is purely recreational (WvWvW) they were much more lax.
So while they DO boost you to the stats and HP of an 80 in WvWvW they don't boost your gear, for good reason. If you could waltz into WvWvW at level 1 and get 80 equivalent gear, be able to level up, have everything unlocked, then why would people play the main world past the dungeons/personal story? They wouldn't, plain and simple.
On topic, unless you have a levelling curve that is crazy (like AION) EXP bonuses don't really matter. If you're playing the game to enjoy it to the fullest, it wont matter when you get to 80. Yes, there are going to be some people that buy them to rush to 80 in the first 2 weeks in order to say "NOT ENUF CONTENT", or to have a shortlived WvW advantage, but once the game gets rolling, these will fade to being used as alt leveling aids, for those with 7 or 8 characters who really want to just get them to 80 as fast as possible.
Also, which many people seem to forget, in the last beta test there was a third currency called "gems" which are extremely similar to EvE's Plex tickets (or w/e they're called). Gems are the shop currency, and they are fully tradeable for gold, and since they've stated about how gold is going to be so plentiful and there's very few cash sinks (Ressurecting costs 15 copper, teleporting costs more for the distance but is an average of 20 copper, and changing talents/repairing items both cost around 15 copper). Therefore, you can assume that people who buy gems will be able to trade them for gold (basically legally "buying" gold) and vice versa (using gold to buy cash shop items). In conclusion, this entire discussion is invalid.
RPGs are about character progression. You win by progressing your character and completing content in order to move onto the next content. Paying extra to expediate character progression or bypass content is therefore paying to win.
This is so obvious, I think you put in the most concise possible way.
ON TOPIC:
People, time skippers and time savers are not based only on leveling. So stop restricting my point. My point is about anything advertised as convenience for people who dont have time, either material or subjective. Also, Guild Wars 2 is only the 100th+ game that came with this, dont belittle the thread or deviate from the main point. Counter the main point if you can.
You spend money to acquire something that ultimatelly allow you to bypass time and effort.
You spend money to acquire something that has value, thus generating value for you out of thin air.
The value you acquire translate into power. The time you skipped, translate into progression. Progression is power.
In the end, anything that is sold on CASH SHOPS that POTENTIALLY allows players to SKIP a portion of TIME AND EFFORT in the game to PROGRESS, ends up giving them a chronologically power advantage over others.
MMORPGs are designed so time is never enough. By design, there isnt a CAP at wich point spending more time does not provide any more material or subjective advantage to a player. By design players can always get more and better resources, gear, valuables.
In that sense there is always a chronologic race for progression and acquisition of resources, equipment, valuables or whatever that can be acquired through time and effort.
Under these designs, selling TIME SKIPPERS or TIME-SAVING CONVENIENCE ITEMS are an indirect way of selling power, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, benefitting from the power bait on the cash shops and evading the criticism that our mmorpg community has grown to evolve and label by "Pay To Win".
Time savers affect the chronologic progression and position of power one holds at any determined point in time.
The main problem is that TIME SKIPPERS, CONTENT SKIPPERS, TIME-SAVING CONVENIENCE ITEMS, whatever the developers name it in their interviews END UP AFFECTING THE INTEGRITY OF THE GAME.
This causes a chain effect that start from the core design of the game, when rates of progression, amount of time and effort required to accomplish certain activiities is decided. Games end up being designed so that the default rate of progression or amount of repetition or attempts, or number of enemies killed, whatever activiity it has, ends up being artificially increased/slowed down in a detrimental way. While for the payers who are envisioned to benefit from the so called "time-savers" end up having a completely diference experience, one whose progression feels more acceptable and natural (as opposed to the artificially "tweaked" one).
This is clearly observed when games started to go from P2P to F2P.
When the factors of power are not subjective (relative to the character: such as levels, classes, skills, unlocks), but material (derived from equipment, upgrades, enchants, resources, whatever currency can translate into direct power), players are misguided into believing that the "progression is fast" or that "the level cap is easily reachable within a short time frame anyway", when in reality in these games the FACTORS OF POWER derive from the material branch. In other words, what commonly we call as "gear grind".
So today I saw the announcement about GUILD WARS 2 RMT and I died a bit inside when I saw the same rethoric speech by ArenaNets' O'Brien about offering "Time-saving convenience items". As if adding the word convenience to it would somehow disguise the pay to win nature of time-saving. And all that disregard the fact that real money will be directly translated into virtual value.
Each day the ethic principles that I grew up as a gamer is shifted into a new ethical paradigm. To me, adding money into the factor of gaming is unethical. Its not ilegal because we the consumers are unorganized and the moving force behind legislation lobbies wants more consumers spending their money and it will take a few years untill the society embraces this virtual social consumerist phenomn and start to treat us like "real life" consumers are.
I believe that what we can do, as I have written before years ago, is that creating a PREJUDICE, by LABELING NEGATIVELLY SOMETHING WE FEEL STRONGLY AGAINST, such as "PAY TO WIN" (as in "this game is pay to win, wich is bad, therefore it sucks" that became automatized in our mass conscience as modern gamers) is a way to VOTE. Is a way to CRIPPLE, is a way to CHANGE and CAUSE EFFECT. We have seen that smart developers ARE TRYING DESPERATELY TO STEEM AWAY FROM THE "OUR GAME IS PAY TO WIN" LABELING.
Now what I believe we must do, is start to impregnate the "TIME-SAVING", "TIME SKIPPERS" IS BAD! In the same way we managed to do together against Pay to Win. We must reject RMT MODELS THAT AFFECT THE INTEGRITY of our games.
That is the best we can do and we can easily spread this idea by just repeatedly applying the negative label filled with prejudice against the "time saving convenience items". In the end, they are as prejudicial to the games as the original pay to win, but this time, they are being camouflaged, masqueraded to bypass our perceptive filters.
You can pm me to discuss more if you want, or you can keep this one bumped for great justice somore people read. I know that the dark forces of censorship are strong on this one and even legitimate complaints may be misinterpreted as trolling, but may the light shine with you.
Op..... well said and I could not agree more.This game has certainly gone for a must have.... to a wait and see if the pay to win is as bad as various suite discussions are saying it is.
RPGs are about character progression. You win by progressing your character and completing content in order to move onto the next content. Paying extra to expediate character progression or bypass content is therefore paying to win.
This is so obvious, I think you put in the most concise possible way.
ON TOPIC:
People, time skippers and time savers are not based only on leveling. So stop restricting my point. My point is about anything advertised as convenience for people who dont have time, either material or subjective. Also, Guild Wars 2 is only the 100th+ game that came with this, dont belittle the thread or deviate from the main point. Counter the main point if you can.
Except that it is so obviously wrong!! You win by progressing?? At exactly what point do you win? And who is losing?
When it comes to timesavers, such as exp boosts (in a PvE game) there is no advantage gained whatsoever. A 10% exp boost means Player 1 has to kill 9 rats instead of 10. So what ? Player 1 has defeated player 2 because he defeated his 9 rats faster than Player 2 defeated his 10?
What if Player 1 only has time to kill 8 rats before logging off (the wife is bitching at him because he has to cut the grass!)and Player 2 goes on and kills all 10 of his rats and then follows that up by killing 10 fierce bunnies as well? Has Player 2 now won?
It is not pay to win because clearly, "progressing" is not "winning" despite what you say. It is simply progressing.
What you have OP, and many others here it seems, is a big case of sour grapes. Lets say the bonuses are limited to 20%. And that would be high I think. That means if it takes the fastest player 5 weeks to max level, it would take you 6 weeks, playing at the same rate. Hardly worth crying over is it? Oh and yes, he won!! If the two of you had a bet on who would get there first, that is.
I am really starting to think that they need to come up with some new MMO's for all the type A personalities here in these forums. One where every player starts at the exact same time, and the first one to reach max level is declared Lord Emperor and gets to individually behead all the other players! Then we would have a winner!!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Disclaimer: If you get the idea that I'm attacking you personally, that was not my intention. I'm sure you're a good guy/gal. I'm only trying to take apart your "argument", as I physically cringed reading it. Oh, and please no "English is not my fist language" - it's not mine, either!
Originally posted by Interesting
You spend money to acquire something that ultimatelly allow you to bypass time and effort.
You spend money to acquire something that has value, thus generating value for you out of thin air.
< What? You're implying that money has no value. What actually happens is that you laden a virtual item with real-world value, backed up my currency. I should've stopped reading right here.
The value you acquire translate into power.
< Power? What kind of power? You're leaving us without any definition.
The time you skipped, translate into progression. Progression is power.
< Since you so eloquently left out any definition of "power" or what it may imply, this whole chain of conclusions is entirely meaningless. For the sake of my argument I'm assuming with "progression" you mean the leveling process.
In the end, anything that is sold on CASH SHOPS that POTENTIALLY allows players to SKIP a portion of TIME AND EFFORT in the game to PROGRESS, ends up giving them a chronologically power advantage over others.
< Again, no definition of power. The only advantage I see from the definition I provided is being a higher level than another player who didn't buy the time saver.
MMORPGs are designed so time is never enough. By design, there isnt a CAP at wich point spending more time does not provide any more material or subjective advantage to a player. By design players can always get more and better resources, gear, valuables.
In that sense there is always a chronologic race for progression and acquisition of resources, equipment, valuables or whatever that can be acquired through time and effort.
Under these designs, selling TIME SKIPPERS or TIME-SAVING CONVENIENCE ITEMS are an indirect way of selling power, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, benefitting from the power bait on the cash shops and evading the criticism that our mmorpg community has grown to evolve and label by "Pay To Win".
< Ah, I see what you're getting at. Since you later refer to GW2, I'm guessing you're bitter about the "Magic Find Boost", because as far as I can tell, the other time skippers don't offer any advantage apart from XP. Now, if you were talking about XP-boosts, your "by design players can get always get more and better resources..." falls entirely apart since a player can only acquire resources by the investment of time in the game, a very specific use of time that can't be skipped.
However, I can see how you're getting to the conclusion that "finding 10% more magic items" means needing less time to find the same amount of items as a player who didn't buy that boost. That does sound a lot. (I'm serious here.)
Putting it into perspective: The boost works for one hour. Player A didn't buy the boost, player B did. After those 60 minutes, A may have found 10 items. B found 11 (since 10% of 10 is 1). What a major advantage which critically endangers the integrity of the game! (Okay, that was me being sarcastic now.)
Time savers affect the chronologic progression and position of power one holds at any determined point in time.
The main problem is that TIME SKIPPERS, CONTENT SKIPPERS, TIME-SAVING CONVENIENCE ITEMS, whatever the developers name it in their interviews END UP AFFECTING THE INTEGRITY OF THE GAME.
< To cut you some slack: I see your point. But I definitely would make that a case-dependant argument. How much such a boost affects the balance of "power", as you put it, depends on the effect of the boost on the game mechanics, not the boost itself. In a game where toon level plays a major role, an XP-boost could be game-breaking. So yes, I partially agree with you there, if the argument is confined to a very limited space.
This causes a chain effect that start from the core design of the game, when rates of progression, amount of time and effort required to accomplish certain activiities is decided. Games end up being designed so that the default rate of progression or amount of repetition or attempts, or number of enemies killed, whatever activiity it has, ends up being artificially increased/slowed down in a detrimental way.
While for the payers who are envisioned to benefit from the so called "time-savers" end up having a completely diference experience, one whose progression feels more acceptable and natural (as opposed to the artificially "tweaked" one).
< I fail to see the chain effect (assuming you meant "chain reaction"). This is an absurd conclusion, though. You're assuming that the design of the game changes because of the boost. Also, I don't see anything negative in subjective experiences since everyone experiences a game differently. This argument as a whole, therefore, is trivial.
This is clearly observed when games started to go from P2P to F2P.
< What is? That player experience changes, depending on how it's presented to him? You don't say!
When the factors of power are not subjective (relative to the character: such as levels, classes, skills, unlocks), but material (derived from equipment, upgrades, enchants, resources, whatever currency can translate into direct power),
< What? Granted, "material" may as well mean "objective", but you fail to explain how "level, classes, skills and unlocks" are not objective, because they sure as heck aren't subjective (since they're not a matter of interpretation).
players are misguided into believing that the "progression is fast" or that "the level cap is easily reachable within a short time frame anyway", when in reality in these games the FACTORS OF POWER derive from the material branch. In other words, what commonly we call as "gear grind".
< WHAT?! Okay, let me try to understand your reasoning: You say factors of "power" can be player related ("stats") or material/owned ("items"). If they are material, players may believe they level fast while their power comes from materials, i.e. power comes from gear grind. How is that a coherent argument? So you're stating that if you get more powerful by the items you own, you get more powerful by the items you own (while players may think that they level faster). This is not only trivial, but entirely nonsensical.
So today I saw the announcement about GUILD WARS 2 RMT and I died a bit inside when I saw the same rethoric speech by ArenaNets' O'Brien about offering "Time-saving convenience items". As if adding the word convenience to it would somehow disguise the pay to win nature of time-saving.
< I'm not trying to go all ad hominem on you here, but as I pick apart your post, I get the impression that you should be the last one here to criticize rhetoric. You still failed to argumentatively link "pay to win" to "time skipping". The attempts you made were either nonsensical or trivial so far.
And all that disregard the fact that real money will be directly translated into virtual value.
< As you stated before, resources, gear, and what have you already have value due to the investment of time and effort, right? And seeing how in a P2P game you pay for the time (= value) you are allowed to invest, how is that bad? A F2P game doesn't charge you for that investment.
Each day the ethic principles that I grew up as a gamer is shifted into a new ethical paradigm. To me, adding money into the factor of gaming is unethical.
< What. No, seriously, I'd love to leave it at that. "Adding money to the factor of gaming is unethical" - do you read what you write? I won't even dignify that with elaboration, you "Only-plays-Open-Source-or-homemade-games"-gamer.
Its not ilegal because we the consumers are unorganized and the moving force behind legislation lobbies wants more consumers spending their money and it will take a few years untill the society embraces this virtual social consumerist phenomn and start to treat us like "real life" consumers are.
< What a strange sudden dash of social criticism...
I believe that what we can do, as I have written before years ago, is that creating a PREJUDICE, by LABELING NEGATIVELLY SOMETHING WE FEEL STRONGLY AGAINST, such as "PAY TO WIN" (as in "this game is pay to win, wich is bad, therefore it sucks" that became automatized in our mass conscience as modern gamers) is a way to VOTE. Is a way to CRIPPLE, is a way to CHANGE and CAUSE EFFECT. We have seen that smart developers ARE TRYING DESPERATELY TO STEEM AWAY FROM THE "OUR GAME IS PAY TO WIN" LABELING.
< What's this now, a rally? As if especially MMO gamers were all but vocal about their discontent.
Now what I believe we must do, is start to impregnate the "TIME-SAVING", "TIME SKIPPERS" IS BAD! In the same way we managed to do together against Pay to Win. We must reject RMT MODELS THAT AFFECT THE INTEGRITY of our games.
That is the best we can do and we can easily spread this idea by just repeatedly applying the negative label filled with prejudice against the "time saving convenience items". In the end, they are as prejudicial to the games as the original pay to win, but this time, they are being camouflaged, masqueraded to bypass our perceptive filters.
< *sighs* Whatever the "original pay to win" is. Again, no definition, no example, nothing. This is just empty rambling.
You can pm me to discuss more if you want, or you can keep this one bumped for great justice somore people read. I know that the dark forces of censorship are strong on this one and even legitimate complaints may be misinterpreted as trolling, but may the light shine with you
< No. The last thing I want to do is "discuss" anything with you as you so eloquently proved to me that, in fact, discussing is not your forté.
These are not legitimate complaints, as I have hopefully shown by replying to each and every single argument you make. No, this is unfounded fear-mongering. I actually understand where you're coming from and why you're so against the idea of F2P/cash shops (since you're right in one aspect: they CAN be game breaking), but your whole post does nothing to argue against them apart from political demonstration style demagoguery, lacking definitions and coherent argumentative chains (or "logic", if you will).
Let me point out that, in fact, I couldn't care less about these first world problems. I'm just having fun.
RPGs are about character progression. You win by progressing your character and completing content in order to move onto the next content. Paying extra to expediate character progression or bypass content is therefore paying to win.
This is so obvious, I think you put in the most concise possible way.
ON TOPIC:
People, time skippers and time savers are not based only on leveling. So stop restricting my point. My point is about anything advertised as convenience for people who dont have time, either material or subjective. Also, Guild Wars 2 is only the 100th+ game that came with this, dont belittle the thread or deviate from the main point. Counter the main point if you can.
Except that it is so obviously wrong!! You win by progressing?? At exactly what point do you win? And who is losing?
When it comes to timesavers, such as exp boosts (in a PvE game) there is no advantage gained whatsoever. A 10% exp boost means Player 1 has to kill 9 rats instead of 10. So what ? Player 1 has defeated player 2 because he defeated his 9 rats faster than Player 2 defeated his 10?
What if Player 1 only has time to kill 8 rats before logging off (the wife is bitching at him because he has to cut the grass!)and Player 2 goes on and kills all 10 of his rats and then follows that up by killing 10 fierce bunnies as well? Has Player 2 now won?
It is not pay to win because clearly, "progressing" is not "winning" despite what you say. It is simply progressing.
What you have OP, and many others here it seems, is a big case of sour grapes. Lets say the bonuses are limited to 20%. And that would be high I think. That means if it takes the fastest player 5 weeks to max level, it would take you 6 weeks, playing at the same rate. Hardly worth crying over is it? Oh and yes, he won!! If the two of you had a bet on who would get there first, that is.
I am really starting to think that they need to come up with some new MMO's for all the type A personalities here in these forums. One where every player starts at the exact same time, and the first one to reach max level is declared Lord Emperor and gets to individually behead all the other players! Then we would have a winner!!
Then please enlighten me, what exactly is the purpose of playing an RPG?
For fun? Okay, how do you have fun?
Do you have fun when you gain levels, your character becoming more powerful, getting more hitpoints, stats, skills, etc?
Do you have fun when you beat a dungeon and come out with a shiny new item that makes your character more powerful?
Do you get a sense of accomplishment for beating a difficult encounter with your character you worked hard on leveling and gearing up?
Those things are all about progression, and you have fun because you are 'winning' within the design of the game. Without progression in RPGs, you don't have much of a game left. In fact, if you completely removed any sense of progression, most people would quickly lose interest and simply not play.
And similarly, if any schmuck can just whip out his credit card and pay to bypass or expediate progression in any way, it devalues the accomplishment of progression of all other players.
You may not be bothered by 'convenience' and 'bypass' items, but there are many people who are. If you honestly hate grinding in MMORPGs so much that you're willing to pay to skip the entire point of the game, progression, then maybe you're looking into the wrong genre of gaming.
RPGs are about character progression. You win by progressing your character and completing content in order to move onto the next content. Paying extra to expediate character progression or bypass content is therefore paying to win.
This is so obvious, I think you put in the most concise possible way.
ON TOPIC:
People, time skippers and time savers are not based only on leveling. So stop restricting my point. My point is about anything advertised as convenience for people who dont have time, either material or subjective. Also, Guild Wars 2 is only the 100th+ game that came with this, dont belittle the thread or deviate from the main point. Counter the main point if you can.
Except that it is so obviously wrong!! You win by progressing?? At exactly what point do you win? And who is losing?
When it comes to timesavers, such as exp boosts (in a PvE game) there is no advantage gained whatsoever. A 10% exp boost means Player 1 has to kill 9 rats instead of 10. So what ? Player 1 has defeated player 2 because he defeated his 9 rats faster than Player 2 defeated his 10?
What if Player 1 only has time to kill 8 rats before logging off (the wife is bitching at him because he has to cut the grass!)and Player 2 goes on and kills all 10 of his rats and then follows that up by killing 10 fierce bunnies as well? Has Player 2 now won?
It is not pay to win because clearly, "progressing" is not "winning" despite what you say. It is simply progressing.
What you have OP, and many others here it seems, is a big case of sour grapes. Lets say the bonuses are limited to 20%. And that would be high I think. That means if it takes the fastest player 5 weeks to max level, it would take you 6 weeks, playing at the same rate. Hardly worth crying over is it? Oh and yes, he won!! If the two of you had a bet on who would get there first, that is.
I am really starting to think that they need to come up with some new MMO's for all the type A personalities here in these forums. One where every player starts at the exact same time, and the first one to reach max level is declared Lord Emperor and gets to individually behead all the other players! Then we would have a winner!!
Then please enlighten me, what exactly is the purpose of playing an RPG?
For fun? Okay, how do you have fun?
Do you have fun when you gain levels, your character becoming more powerful, getting more hitpoints, stats, skills, etc?
Do you have fun when you beat a dungeon and come out with a shiny new item that makes your character more powerful?
Do you get a sense of accomplishment for beating a difficult encounter with your character you worked hard on leveling and gearing up?
Those things are all about progression, and you have fun because you are 'winning' within the design of the game. Without progression in RPGs, you don't have much of a game left. In fact, if you completely removed any sense of progression, most people would quickly lose interest and simply not play.
And similarly, if any schmuck can just whip out his credit card and pay to bypass or expediate progression in any way, it devalues the accomplishment of progression of all other players.
You may not be bothered by 'convenience' and 'bypass' items, but there are many people who are. If you honestly hate grinding in MMORPGs so much that you're willing to pay to skip the entire point of the game, progression, then maybe you're looking into the wrong genre of gaming.
Maybe he is looking into the wrong genre of gaming, but what is it to you? Why do you care if he wish to skip all the things that you think is fun? Why would that make it less fun for you?
If people are bothered by other people not getting the same feeling of accomplishment or pride by progressing then that's their problem, and they should get over it because in reality it doesn't affect them in the game. Let them skip all the content they want, it doesn't diminish your accomplishments, have your fun and let other people decide what they think is fun.
I have so far only spent real money for two things: mounts and fashion.
The mount reason is simple: Usually they cost SO much money, I have a good mount regularly only in the last level, and that sucks, because I hate endgame and for me max level means GAME OVER. So a mount at the point would be entirely superfluous for me. I want a fast mount in mid game or as early as possible.
Second, I want my char to look good and unique. Usually really good looking gear comes from raid grinding or such things, and I just do not have the time nor will to do raid grind. Ever. So I buy something that makes my char look good and unique. Of course I "skip" raids in that way, but it is a sort of wrong idea, since I would not do raids anyway.
Is that "game changing"? I don't know. But I think within such limits a shop is ok, if the prices are not too expensive.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I tend to agree, most of the people using the term actually know the meaning of it. Be it experience boost, currency boosts, that does not affect the gameplay enough to be a pay to win. So what would be p2w? A weapon or a piece of gear, so good that is game changing and that cant be acquired without paying real money. Time-saving items such as boosts and so on are p2w? Please lol. Specially if you can acquire such items with ingame currency in most of the games that have them. Now now, please don't use the term so often when in fact that is rarely the case.
Like I've said in other threads, I don't necessarily mind pay to win for free to play games(Guild Wars 2 is not free to play)... as long as what they're asking you to pay is reasonable. I think there should come a time where you deal with the choice of not paying to not be competitive, and paying to be competitive.
To make an example as simple as possible(even though the idea itself is terrible), let's say without paying you can only reach level 80. With paying, you can reach level 90. So people that pay have 10 levels over you. This is an obvious advantage for PvP as you have more stats. Is it the be-all end-all? No, if you're 80 and you're against a crappy 90, you're going to win... but you clearly can't compete against good 90s. This is a fork in the road... you either stay as a free player or take it to the next level. If the cost is reasonable to continue on, I'm perfectly fine with that. I've invested time into the game, it's affordable, and the game quite frankly needs to make money to continue.
I think it's jackass dumb to expect to play something for free 24/7 and be competitive, and still whine about things like bugs that don't get fixed and lack of updates. The dev staff like programmers and etc. don't come out of thin air, they have families to feed while you sit on your ass stuffing your face with potato chips that your mother bought you. Sitting there playing armchair quarterback and expecting the world to bend over for you while you contribute nothing monetary.
Unfortunately not many games are structured this way. Many games with cash shops are deliberately set up to milk your wallet with chance items, selling stat boosts that are massively overpriced(and sometimes needed), selling crafting items required to get past a certain gear upgrade level, etc. All of this combined always ends up taking a massive chunk of money away from you, grossly disproportionate to a monthly subscription, and it's never set up in such a way that it keeps the balance of the game between a guy that spends $15 and a guy that spends $150. This is where the fear in Guild Wars 2's cash shop comes in, because so many people have done it completely wrong in the past.
If Guild Wars 2 would like me to spend $15 a month on their cash shop to bring myself up to a level of convenience normally found in a game with a built in subscription cost... fine. I have zero problem with that. I take issue with things when the cost of cash shop items far outweighs a regular subscription cost.
Now Playing: Mission Against Terror, Battlefield 3, Skyrim, Dark Souls, League of Legends, Minecraft, and the piano. =3
What amazes me is that they're going to sell us a 60 dollar box for a free2play, not b2p game and otherwise(one has to assume)reasonable adults are defending them to the hilt. They are PR gurus I need to hire these guys for my company's PR efforts. They have mastered the art of pissing on our backs and telling us its raining and making people believe.
I want you to think about it that cash shop was very similar to cash shops in many f2p titles, except those titles have the decency to not hit you for a box at least, and over 1/2 the people in this thread are busy defending them.....balls deep.
Comments
Selling xp boosts is pay to win. fully agree.
Let's all just face it. GW2 is a very high end f2p game that also costs to buy the disc. sucks for us but thats the truth.
Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.
I used to be totally against this but now i think it's neccessary.
Say there are two types of player, hardcore and casual, where hardcore is defined as wanting to be at the "top" i.e. max level with the best gear, and further say the two groups are also sub-divided between those with hightime and lowtime. Hightime and lowtime casuals can enjoy the game because they're casual - they're not really aiming at a fixed point so as long as there's plenty of stuff to do and lots of distractions they can be entertained. Hightime hardcore players - whether for endgame raiding or pvp - can also get to where they want to be because they have the time.
The only group that can't get where they want to be are the lowtime hardcores. One answer to that is "tough t***y" but if they can't get what they want they'll engage in forum pvp pretending to be casuals to try and the levelling part of the game dumbed down to the point where someone with a low amount of time can still get to max level fast. Much easier to just let them buy exp pots and leave the base game alone.
Time skippers... yes and no. If you're launching a game, time skippers can equal power. In WoW, you get plenty of monetary power out of being the first to obtain a crafting recipe. You're the only guy that can craft something, ergo you can charge ridiculous amounts of gold per craft because players can't get it anywhere else. If you're time-skipping with cash shop items so that you're one of the only people in a given amount of time that can get an item like this, and you happen to get lucky enough to get such a crafting recipe quickly, I can see time-skippers equating to power. You got that crafting recipe first because you power-leveled yourself up there.
Beyond that extreme, I don't really see the correlation.
EDIT: Now, if you're talking about grindfests where stats = power and it's a PvP-heavy game, then that's different.
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I am one of those players that like to compete but I do work a full time job so my game time is limited. I can tell you that this cash shop design does not help me at all, even though ArenaNet says it should.
I know that I'm not going to get as far as a person with no job that plays twice as much as me, which is fine. But when a player that plays twice as much a me can also use the cash shop to further boost their advantage even further that ruins my experience. I like to know that if someone is higher level or better geared, or is rich that he must be a better player than me, and I'm fine with that. Now I'll just wonder if said player simply brought their advantage. At the same time I level pretty fast considering my limited playtime and I don't want people accusing me of cheating through cash shop item. This cash shop is going to lead to a lot of unnecessary drama, which also ruins the social aspects for me.
For people that enjoys the social and competitive aspects of MMOs the prescence of buying an sort of advantage through currency and not gameplay itself, cheapens the experience for me and a lot of other players.
And that lvl 1 will still be at dis advantge due to lack of skills that lvl 80 guys has and also his gear which would be obviously better than what he is wearing. So it is not all that balanced as you are trying to make it appear.
"suck for us"? You can always NOT play the game. It is a free world.
Let's take this idea to its logical conclusion... pay to be max level. Who would be willing to pay to start at max level? It sounds like it's defeating the purpose of the game.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
RPGs are about character progression. You win by progressing your character and completing content in order to move onto the next content. Paying extra to expediate character progression or bypass content is therefore paying to win.
depends completely on the game. In GW2 for example it wouldn't do you a single bit of good.
if you buy an xp potion for a game that levels your skills to the pve and pvp zone/dungeon you are in, requires that you level skills via gameplay/the use of weapons initial skills (no trainers) and has no REAL gear score improvements to speak of, and whose content is almost ALL open world random events then you end up with wasted money. So really it's completely dependant on game.
Besides none of these potions make you instantly a max level nor do they instantly give you the best gear. People whine too much about this subject.
Extreme case != logical conclusion.
The ability to BUY a potion so that you spend 8 hours, instread of 10 hours to level, is obvously very different from spending 0 hours.
And whether it defeats the purpose of the game, depends on the purpose. If someone's purpose is to raid at max level, it does not defeat the purpose of the game. If his purpose is to enjoy the sights while leveling, it does.
You need to realize that the "purpose" is different for different players.
To clarify the person you were referring to, and the developers have said this MANY times, in COMPETITIVE PvP Everything is balanced, you are level 80, have all of your skills unlocked, level 80 equivalent gear is placed into your inventory (you are not allowed to keep it), you have all your traits, you practically ARE a level 80. However, where you are correct is in WvWvW PvP which they stated "It isn't meant to be fair".
To be honest, how much does gear/level scaling matter in WvWvW if youre in a group of 5 versus a group of 40? Yes, balancing is good, and yes, they have been balancing the gear/stats where it counts (competitively) but in the "sideshow" PvP, or the PvP that is purely recreational (WvWvW) they were much more lax.
So while they DO boost you to the stats and HP of an 80 in WvWvW they don't boost your gear, for good reason. If you could waltz into WvWvW at level 1 and get 80 equivalent gear, be able to level up, have everything unlocked, then why would people play the main world past the dungeons/personal story? They wouldn't, plain and simple.
On topic, unless you have a levelling curve that is crazy (like AION) EXP bonuses don't really matter. If you're playing the game to enjoy it to the fullest, it wont matter when you get to 80. Yes, there are going to be some people that buy them to rush to 80 in the first 2 weeks in order to say "NOT ENUF CONTENT", or to have a shortlived WvW advantage, but once the game gets rolling, these will fade to being used as alt leveling aids, for those with 7 or 8 characters who really want to just get them to 80 as fast as possible.
Also, which many people seem to forget, in the last beta test there was a third currency called "gems" which are extremely similar to EvE's Plex tickets (or w/e they're called). Gems are the shop currency, and they are fully tradeable for gold, and since they've stated about how gold is going to be so plentiful and there's very few cash sinks (Ressurecting costs 15 copper, teleporting costs more for the distance but is an average of 20 copper, and changing talents/repairing items both cost around 15 copper). Therefore, you can assume that people who buy gems will be able to trade them for gold (basically legally "buying" gold) and vice versa (using gold to buy cash shop items). In conclusion, this entire discussion is invalid.
This is so obvious, I think you put in the most concise possible way.
ON TOPIC:
People, time skippers and time savers are not based only on leveling. So stop restricting my point. My point is about anything advertised as convenience for people who dont have time, either material or subjective. Also, Guild Wars 2 is only the 100th+ game that came with this, dont belittle the thread or deviate from the main point. Counter the main point if you can.
Op..... well said and I could not agree more.This game has certainly gone for a must have.... to a wait and see if the pay to win is as bad as various suite discussions are saying it is.
Except that it is so obviously wrong!! You win by progressing?? At exactly what point do you win? And who is losing?
When it comes to timesavers, such as exp boosts (in a PvE game) there is no advantage gained whatsoever. A 10% exp boost means Player 1 has to kill 9 rats instead of 10. So what ? Player 1 has defeated player 2 because he defeated his 9 rats faster than Player 2 defeated his 10?
What if Player 1 only has time to kill 8 rats before logging off (the wife is bitching at him because he has to cut the grass!)and Player 2 goes on and kills all 10 of his rats and then follows that up by killing 10 fierce bunnies as well? Has Player 2 now won?
It is not pay to win because clearly, "progressing" is not "winning" despite what you say. It is simply progressing.
What you have OP, and many others here it seems, is a big case of sour grapes. Lets say the bonuses are limited to 20%. And that would be high I think. That means if it takes the fastest player 5 weeks to max level, it would take you 6 weeks, playing at the same rate. Hardly worth crying over is it? Oh and yes, he won!! If the two of you had a bet on who would get there first, that is.
I am really starting to think that they need to come up with some new MMO's for all the type A personalities here in these forums. One where every player starts at the exact same time, and the first one to reach max level is declared Lord Emperor and gets to individually behead all the other players! Then we would have a winner!!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Let me point out that, in fact, I couldn't care less about these first world problems. I'm just having fun.
This, so much this. I couldn't agree more with you.
Let me point out that, in fact, I couldn't care less about these first world problems. I'm just having fun.
Then please enlighten me, what exactly is the purpose of playing an RPG?
For fun? Okay, how do you have fun?
Do you have fun when you gain levels, your character becoming more powerful, getting more hitpoints, stats, skills, etc?
Do you have fun when you beat a dungeon and come out with a shiny new item that makes your character more powerful?
Do you get a sense of accomplishment for beating a difficult encounter with your character you worked hard on leveling and gearing up?
Those things are all about progression, and you have fun because you are 'winning' within the design of the game. Without progression in RPGs, you don't have much of a game left. In fact, if you completely removed any sense of progression, most people would quickly lose interest and simply not play.
And similarly, if any schmuck can just whip out his credit card and pay to bypass or expediate progression in any way, it devalues the accomplishment of progression of all other players.
You may not be bothered by 'convenience' and 'bypass' items, but there are many people who are. If you honestly hate grinding in MMORPGs so much that you're willing to pay to skip the entire point of the game, progression, then maybe you're looking into the wrong genre of gaming.
Maybe he is looking into the wrong genre of gaming, but what is it to you? Why do you care if he wish to skip all the things that you think is fun? Why would that make it less fun for you?
If people are bothered by other people not getting the same feeling of accomplishment or pride by progressing then that's their problem, and they should get over it because in reality it doesn't affect them in the game. Let them skip all the content they want, it doesn't diminish your accomplishments, have your fun and let other people decide what they think is fun.
I have so far only spent real money for two things: mounts and fashion.
The mount reason is simple: Usually they cost SO much money, I have a good mount regularly only in the last level, and that sucks, because I hate endgame and for me max level means GAME OVER. So a mount at the point would be entirely superfluous for me. I want a fast mount in mid game or as early as possible.
Second, I want my char to look good and unique. Usually really good looking gear comes from raid grinding or such things, and I just do not have the time nor will to do raid grind. Ever. So I buy something that makes my char look good and unique. Of course I "skip" raids in that way, but it is a sort of wrong idea, since I would not do raids anyway.
Is that "game changing"? I don't know. But I think within such limits a shop is ok, if the prices are not too expensive.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Why is it that 99% of the people using the term pay to win anymore have no clue what it means?
pay to tim means you can put money out to be better than someone else, it doesnt mean you spend less time lvling, learn the difference.
Why SHOULNT you be able to pay to speed something up? believe it or not time is actually VALUABLE to the non mmo addicted, and time = money.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
I tend to agree, most of the people using the term actually know the meaning of it. Be it experience boost, currency boosts, that does not affect the gameplay enough to be a pay to win. So what would be p2w? A weapon or a piece of gear, so good that is game changing and that cant be acquired without paying real money. Time-saving items such as boosts and so on are p2w? Please lol. Specially if you can acquire such items with ingame currency in most of the games that have them. Now now, please don't use the term so often when in fact that is rarely the case.
If "time savings" is all that a cash shop sold, it would be great...but it never is. Even if they start out that way, they never stay that way.
Cash shops WILL turn against the hardcore fans. They ALWAYS do.
Like I've said in other threads, I don't necessarily mind pay to win for free to play games(Guild Wars 2 is not free to play)... as long as what they're asking you to pay is reasonable. I think there should come a time where you deal with the choice of not paying to not be competitive, and paying to be competitive.
To make an example as simple as possible(even though the idea itself is terrible), let's say without paying you can only reach level 80. With paying, you can reach level 90. So people that pay have 10 levels over you. This is an obvious advantage for PvP as you have more stats. Is it the be-all end-all? No, if you're 80 and you're against a crappy 90, you're going to win... but you clearly can't compete against good 90s. This is a fork in the road... you either stay as a free player or take it to the next level. If the cost is reasonable to continue on, I'm perfectly fine with that. I've invested time into the game, it's affordable, and the game quite frankly needs to make money to continue.
I think it's jackass dumb to expect to play something for free 24/7 and be competitive, and still whine about things like bugs that don't get fixed and lack of updates. The dev staff like programmers and etc. don't come out of thin air, they have families to feed while you sit on your ass stuffing your face with potato chips that your mother bought you. Sitting there playing armchair quarterback and expecting the world to bend over for you while you contribute nothing monetary.
Unfortunately not many games are structured this way. Many games with cash shops are deliberately set up to milk your wallet with chance items, selling stat boosts that are massively overpriced(and sometimes needed), selling crafting items required to get past a certain gear upgrade level, etc. All of this combined always ends up taking a massive chunk of money away from you, grossly disproportionate to a monthly subscription, and it's never set up in such a way that it keeps the balance of the game between a guy that spends $15 and a guy that spends $150. This is where the fear in Guild Wars 2's cash shop comes in, because so many people have done it completely wrong in the past.
If Guild Wars 2 would like me to spend $15 a month on their cash shop to bring myself up to a level of convenience normally found in a game with a built in subscription cost... fine. I have zero problem with that. I take issue with things when the cost of cash shop items far outweighs a regular subscription cost.
Now Playing: Mission Against Terror, Battlefield 3, Skyrim, Dark Souls, League of Legends, Minecraft, and the piano. =3
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Well by that logic WoW's scroll thingie is pay to win since you can now use the scroll and get a free max lvl character.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
What amazes me is that they're going to sell us a 60 dollar box for a free2play, not b2p game and otherwise(one has to assume)reasonable adults are defending them to the hilt. They are PR gurus I need to hire these guys for my company's PR efforts. They have mastered the art of pissing on our backs and telling us its raining and making people believe.
I want you to think about it that cash shop was very similar to cash shops in many f2p titles, except those titles have the decency to not hit you for a box at least, and over 1/2 the people in this thread are busy defending them.....balls deep.