Trayvon Martin's Shooting

//\//\oo · March 2012

Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo

So a guy who can't defend himself without shooting someone is "protecting the community?" OK, more likely he is a POS who was looking to cap someone, well he caapped a little kid. The guy is scum pure and simple. If the POS had any honor, he'd put that gun in his mouth and blow out his own brainstem.

He wasn't a little kid, he was a 17 year old male who happened to be more than a foot taller than the shooter.

How is a tiny 5 foot guy supposed to wrestle down somebody twice his size? Would you expect a dwarf to take down a hulking professional body builder?

Dekron · March 2012

Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo
There should only be self-defense laws that state you only use leathal force when threatened with leathal force.

That's rather subjective, now isn't it?

//\//\oo · March 2012

Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo
Zimmerman is a POS I know cops, my father and brother specifically, who would not shoot a guy armed with a knife (eventhough it is quite legal) and would wrestle the guy instead. This is what happens when civilians take police powers in their own hands, needless deaths. Stand Your Ground & Castle Laws are a biunch of crap with regard to the not having to back down from an altercation & the protection of property. There should only be self-defense laws that state you only use leathal force when threatened with leathal force. Both of these other types of laws state you can use leathal force in cases where your life is not threatened (there was also a case of a Houston man blowing away an unarmed burglar who was fleeing in cold blood, he got off because of Castle Law).

This guy shot an unarmed kid, this shoot first culture is rather pathetic and cowardly.

I should have replied to this earlier, but I'd like to point out how ridiculous it is:

Cops will not hesitate to shoot you in the south. If they even suspect you are armed, whether it be a knife, a candybar, or what have you, they will gun you down with extreme prejudice.

Why should a cop risk his life for yours? Why should ANYBODY risk his/her life for another persons? If some random guy came charging toward me and I couldn't avoid him, then, regardless of his size, I'd shoot him on the spot, because I'm not willing to risk death for his sake.

I also support the Texas incident. That's a good neighbor for you; willing to risk his own person for YOUR sake.

It's rather simple: Don't kill, steal, trespass or assault i.e. don't break the law and give people a REASON to kill you. Behave and nobody has to die, it's that simple.

//\//\oo · March 2012

Originally posted by Dekron

Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo

There should only be self-defense laws that state you only use leathal force when threatened with leathal force.

That's rather subjective, now isn't it?

You are ALLOWED to use lethal force when you are at a disadvantage in terms of size and are at risk of being raped, assaulted, killed etc. at least in AL and FL.

It is still rather subjective as you said, but there have been many incidents where people have used weapons on unarmed people lawfully and it has been viewed as self-defense.

If I am not mistaken, you are authorized to use lethal force with a firearm if it is in prevention of a felony that involves serious bodily injury (so as I had mentioned earlier: murder, rape and battery). It does NOT have to be to your person either; if you were to save another person from being raped by shooting an unarmed man, you will have been well within your rights.. if you can "prove" it.

AutemOx · March 2012

Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo
Zimmerman is a POS I know cops, my father and brother specifically, who would not shoot a guy armed with a knife (eventhough it is quite legal) and would wrestle the guy instead. This is what happens when civilians take police powers in their own hands, needless deaths. Stand Your Ground & Castle Laws are a biunch of crap with regard to the not having to back down from an altercation & the protection of property. There should only be self-defense laws that state you only use leathal force when threatened with leathal force. Both of these other types of laws state you can use leathal force in cases where your life is not threatened (there was also a case of a Houston man blowing away an unarmed burglar who was fleeing in cold blood, he got off because of Castle Law).

This guy shot an unarmed kid, this shoot first culture is rather pathetic and cowardly.

The main difference between florida law and in other states is that you can defend yourself both off and on your property in florida, where in other states it is more likely to be called self defense inside your own home. I know a lot of people do not like the florida law, but I think it is fair. Why would the law be different in your home or outside it? You could 'run away' just as easily if a man was pummelling you inside your home as you could if he were pummelling you outside of it. You would feel the same need to defend yourself and your family regardless of if your family was on vacation outside your home or if they were inside their home. Why should there be a difference in the law? Because the attacker might steal your TV? When people are being attacked they are thinking of one thing: The life of themselves and their loved ones.

PS... If someone goes at a cop with a knife, the cop should shoot. I feel bad for these 'good' cops you are talking about, more specifically I feel bad for their families, because the cops family does not deserve to lose their husband/father to a knife.

No that witness never said who stated the fight, only who was winning the fight (if the witness is speaking the truth).

True there is no way to know who started the fight. Whoever did it did it right after Zimmerman says to the teen "What are you doing here?" on the recording (you can hear it). Why would zimmerman say 'what are you doing here?' and then without letting the teen reply, attack him? Why would the teen not run away before or after Zimmerman spoke to him? What was the teen doing there, in the rain, not near his house or the 'candy' store?

On the flip side... Zimmerman shouldn't have gotten anywhere near this kid or talked to him, he should have ran if the kid started to approach him. He should have registered his neighboorhood watch group with the national association, and followed their rules that include NOT carrying a gun. If he did start the fight, he should not have. If he did not start the fight, he should have tried to get away. If he could not get away, he should have tried to shoot the teen in such a way that it would have wounded but not killed him. Zimmerman obviously did some dumb things. Unlawful? Probably not.... Or at least it is not provable.

Please read this: (!!!!)

I think a lot of people have a difficult time emphasizing with Zimmerman because a) they have bought into claims that he is racist, which is fairly unsubstaintuiry and irrelavent because it does not prove he started the brawl... and b) because they do not know what it is like to fear for their lives. They think 'he is older' or 'he weighs more' and therefore could not be in a situation where he feared for his life. They don't understand the adrenaline and the fear that comes with being beaten and helpless while you are brawling with another man. Posed under them, not knowing who they are or what they are capable of, and knowing that with every punch you are losing any hope of escaping or winning the fight. It is scary. It is not some standard fight you have had on the playground, in a bar, or with your best mate. Almost anyone would use a gun when that fear overcomes them.

kobie173 · March 2012

Originally posted by //\//\oo

A young, black male in questionable attire who you had never seen before enters your community, which is gated (albeit not actively guarded, like many there are) and behaves suspiciously.

Since nearly everybody in that city is armed with a gun, people just don't wander off into gated communities without reason; the only time you'd ever see somebody where they wouldn't be expected to be is if they were committing a crime. Wandering salesmen are nowhere to be found there, not even in the affluent neighborhoods (especially not, since they are usually out of the way, or gated).

Good samaritan A notices this suspicious person and has reason to believe that his neighbor is going to be robbed by him. Good samaritan A kindly asks this person why he is there, since he doesn't recognize him. This suspicious person refuses to answer him and starts becoming angry/aggressive.

The good samaritan who was trying to prevent his neighbor from getting robbed is eventually attacked, since he refuses to let this suspicious person wander around his neighbors apartment/yard.

Since he is dwarfed by his assailant, he uses his firearm that he has equipped and kills him.

Knowing that city and its culture, the above is the most likely scenario.

For starters, Zimmerman was not "dwarfed" by Martin by any stretch of the imagination. The rest of your story is, well, made-up bullshit.

Dekron · March 2012

Originally posted by //\//\oo

Originally posted by Dekron

Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo

There should only be self-defense laws that state you only use leathal force when threatened with leathal force.

That's rather subjective, now isn't it?

You are ALLOWED to use lethal force when you are at a disadvantage in terms of size and are at risk of being raped, assaulted, killed etc. at least in AL and FL.

It is still rather subjective as you said, but there have been many incidents where people have used weapons on unarmed people lawfully and it has been viewed as self-defense.

If I am not mistaken, you are authorized to use lethal force with a firearm if it is in prevention of a felony that involves serious bodily injury (so as I had mentioned earlier: murder, rape and battery). It does NOT have to be to your person either; if you were to save another person from being raped by shooting an unarmed man, you will have been well within your rights.. if you can "prove" it.

There is a similar law in Oklahoma. It's called the "Make My Day" law. It's pretty much the same as above, but goes into detail of how if you fear for your or your family's safety you are allowed use of lethal force. If some unarmed thug breaks into my home at night then I am well within my rights to shoot and kill him.

I have a family and would plug one into anyone's skull if they so dared to make their welcome an uninvited one.

//\//\oo · March 2012

Originally posted by kobie173

For starters, Zimmerman was not "dwarfed" by Martin by any stretch of the imagination. The rest of your story is, well, made-up bullshit.

The guy had quite a height advantage over him. Yes, it's made up, just like every assumption you people have made that brand the shooting as a "hate crime", or the execution of an unarmed child.

Respect and racial equality are two-way streets.

Dekron · March 2012

Along with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, it seems the boy's mother is now trying to exploit him for financial gain.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123

Unknown · March 2012

I live in Florida about an hour south from where this happened. I'm not sure if the Stand Your Ground law actually applies in this case. Legally, I would think they'd look at the guy pursuing the kid and actually leaving his car to confront him as escalating the situation. Especially since he was told not to pursue him by the 911 operator, and because the man in question had community watch and (I hear, not sure) possibly some form of police training. I've asked neighbors who have done community watch programs, and they've all told me that it's made clear you never ever leave the car and you never confront someone.

frodus · March 2012

“The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: ‘help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911.” Martin was wearing a hoodie that night and Zimmerman was wearing a red shirt or sweater. A friend of Zimmerman has also come forward to say that Zimmerman looked like a mess after the fight and that he recognized Zimmerman as the voice on the 911 call asking people to help him.

The kid got kicked out of school for a bag of dope and was staying with his dad.

I guess im still waiting to see what goes down.

kobie173 · March 2012

Originally posted by //\//\oo

Originally posted by kobie173

For starters, Zimmerman was not "dwarfed" by Martin by any stretch of the imagination. The rest of your story is, well, made-up bullshit.

The guy had quite a height advantage over him. Yes, it's made up, just like every assumption you people have made that brand the shooting as a "hate crime", or the execution of an unarmed child.

Respect and racial equality are two-way streets.

"You people"? When did I say anything about it being a "hate crime"?

AutemOx · March 2012

Originally posted by kobie173
For starters, Zimmerman was not "dwarfed" by Martin by any stretch of the imagination. The rest of your story is, well, made-up bullshit.

What he said was based on the sound recordings and eye witness account... The twisted shit that Trayvon's mom and most news articles are saying is based off of the excitement and emotional anger at the idea of a black person under 18 being shot and the shooter being free.

Here is new information that has been coming up... To no surpise of myself, the info points towards Zimmerman acting in self defense:

From This Article which describes This Article by Orlando Sentinel

The Orlando Sentinel is reporting that police sources say Martin was the aggressor on Feb. 26, knocking Zimmerman to the ground with a single punch and then climbing on top of the 28-year-old neighborhood watch captain and slamming the back of his head into the ground. Police say this account, given by Zimmerman, is supported by eyewitnesses, according to the Sentinel's report.

One such witness reportedly told police that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, striking the man, while Zimmerman cried out for help. The attack left Zimmerman bloodied, police sources told the Sentinel, and led him to fire at Martin in self-defense.

Police say Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a fat lip and confirm that the back of his head was cut. He received first aid at the scene but refused to go to the hospital and received medical treatment the following day, according to the Sentinel's sources.

It is nice to see a media company besides fox report on the eye witness, even if only via leaked police reports.

Originally posted by Sawtooth
I live in Florida about an hour south from where this happened. I'm not sure if the Stand Your Ground law actually applies in this case. Legally, I would think they'd look at the guy pursuing the kid and actually leaving his car to confront him as escalating the situation. Especially since he was told not to pursue him by the 911 operator, and because the man in question had community watch and (I hear, not sure) possibly some form of police training. I've asked neighbors who have done community watch programs, and they've all told me that it's made clear you never ever leave the car and you never confront someone.

That is one of the common mistakes that articles have been flat out lying about. 911 NEVER asked, commanded, or (as you say) 'told' him to stop following Trayvon. They simply said 'you do not have to do that' when he said he was following him. They did not make a formal or informal request for him to stop following.

According to Zimmerman, Trayvon went behind some buildings where he could not follow in his car. He got out and Trayvon came back around again and confronted him. Trayvon approached ZImmerman, Zimmerman was originally keeping a distance waiting for police. Zimmerman could be lying of course....

Originally posted by Dekron
Along with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, it seems the boy's mother is now trying to exploit him for financial gain.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123

That is sickening. I wonder how much $$ she has made so far off her dead son. Ugh, that makes me so upset. I really hope she is a good person and donates any money made from this incident.

Originally posted by Dekron
I have a family and would plug one into anyone's skull if they so dared to make their welcome an uninvited one.

+1. I think any man would; those who say otherwise are either lying to themselves or psychopaths.

AutemOx · March 2012

"The Miami Herald in its Tuesday editions reported that it had obtained a Miami-Dade Schools Police Department report that showed the slain teenager was suspended in October for writing obscene graffiti on a door at his high school. During a search of his backpack, the report said, campus security officers found 12 pieces of women’s jewelry, a watch and a screwdriver that they felt could be used as a burglary tool."

So it turns out that this kid has been suspended from school 2 times before he was on suspension for the drugs when he got shot. One of them for having women's jewelry a 'friend' gave him, but he refused to say what friend. And people are going out to protests chanting 'I am Trayvon Martin' without educating themselves about the case at all with all the info thats been posted in this thread so far. It is so sad.

//\//\oo · March 2012

Originally posted by wormywyrm
"The Miami Herald in its Tuesday editions reported that it had obtained a Miami-Dade Schools Police Department report that showed the slain teenager was suspended in October for writing obscene graffiti on a door at his high school. During a search of his backpack, the report said, campus security officers found 12 pieces of women’s jewelry, a watch and a screwdriver that they felt could be used as a burglary tool."

So it turns out that this kid has been suspended from school 2 times before he was on suspension for the drugs when he got shot. One of them for having women's jewelry a 'friend' gave him, but he refused to say what friend. And people are going out to protests chanting 'I am Trayvon Martin' without educating themselves about the case at all with all the info thats been posted in this thread so far. It is so sad.

Tacit agreement is better than none, I suppose, or not really, since we all knew damn well WHY he was in a gated community in the first place.

That community had been victim to burglary and the guy was trying to put a stop to it. He got attacked, he panicked and shot the guy ... and we now have a hate crime.

Precusor · March 2012

Originally posted by //\//\oo

Tacit agreement is better than none, I suppose, or not really, since we all knew damn well WHY he was in a gated community in the first place.

That community had been victim to burglary and the guy was trying to put a stop to it. He got attacked, he panicked and shot the guy ... and we now have a hate crime.

Cant Americans just bust some knee caps instead of killing a person?

outfctrl · March 2012

OMG

If I hear one more thing on this Treyvon Martin ordeal, I will shoot myself. I am so sick of it.

lyonman24 · March 2012

im sick and tired of the racisl bs behind it. white or black killing white or black i could careless what was the friggin intent is all i care about. its simple walk away. once me and a couple of friends got lost in the sf bay area we ended up in oakland at 2am. we got pulled over and told to follow them to the freeway because and this was a black cop saying white people shouldnt be in this area at this hour of the morning.

should i have called racism or be thankful? damn people and this color issue i hate it.i dont care what color anyone is you threaten my friends or my family i will defend them with my life. we all bleed red.

Precusor · March 2012

Originally posted by lyonman24
im sick and tired of the racisl bs behind it. white or black killing white or black i could careless what was the friggin intent is all i care about. its simple walk away. once me and a couple of friends got lost in the sf bay area we ended up in oakland at 2am. we got pulled over and told to follow them to the freeway because and this was a black cop saying white people shouldnt be in this area at this hour of the morning.

should i have called racism or be thankful? damn people and this color issue i hate it.i dont care what color anyone is you threaten my friends or my family i will defend them with my life. we all bleed red.

I think that cop was doing you a favor.

Precusor · March 2012

Their parents are not amused.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9173820/Parents-of-murdered-British-students-criticise-Barack-Obama.html

//\//\oo · March 2012

Originally posted by Precusor

Originally posted by //\//\oo

Tacit agreement is better than none, I suppose, or not really, since we all knew damn well WHY he was in a gated community in the first place.

That community had been victim to burglary and the guy was trying to put a stop to it. He got attacked, he panicked and shot the guy ... and we now have a hate crime.

Cant Americans just bust some knee caps instead of killing a person?

Well it's smarter to bring more than fists to a potential gunfight. If everyone has a gun, or somebody reaches for your gun, you'd be stupid not to shoot him first.

//\//\oo · March 2012

Originally posted by lyonman24
im sick and tired of the racisl bs behind it. white or black killing white or black i could careless what was the friggin intent is all i care about. its simple walk away. once me and a couple of friends got lost in the sf bay area we ended up in oakland at 2am. we got pulled over and told to follow them to the freeway because and this was a black cop saying white people shouldnt be in this area at this hour of the morning.

should i have called racism or be thankful? damn people and this color issue i hate it.i dont care what color anyone is you threaten my friends or my family i will defend them with my life. we all bleed red.

I've also been to Oakland,Ca. It's more than likely that that cop saved your life. Be very, very grateful.

People almost die weekly there and it's not unusual to hear gunfire daily. It's amazing that I've lived in so many shitty places and haven't been robbed yet, but I'm a very careful person.

If you recklessly drive around those areas, you're asking for trouble.

//\//\oo · March 2012

Originally posted by kobie173

Clearly that picture illustrates that Trayvon Martin deserved to be followed through a neighborhood and shot dead.

Pure character assassination of a dead kid.

You make it sound as if he were murdered i.e. Zimmerman had followed him with the intent of killing him. If he had, then why did he call the police?

Completely neglecting Trayvons intentions, it's not obvious that Zimmerman had murdered him. If Zimmerman had had a criminal record, we certainly would have heard about it by now and if Zimmerman had been connected to Trayvon in some way the police would have launched a real investigation (if it had been drug related).

The fact that he not only called in Trayvon, but also remained at the crime scene implies that it was not likely premeditated. What really rules out first degree murder entirely is that Trayvon managed to get in a scuffle with the shooter before he was killed; if Zimmerman had intended to kill him he would have shot him before he got close enough to get the chance.

So now we're at second degree murder, tops.

Trayvons assault of Zimmerman prior to the shooting makes it VERY easy to argue that it was a voluntary manslaughter, since any combination of fear, panic and adrenaline are really sufficient to warrant a defense.

Therefore it's at most a voluntary manslaughter and at least self-defense. You and your friends can stop rallying against the hate crime of the decade, please. Although I'm sure any rational person in Zimmermans position would have done the same; had Trayvon been anything other than black it never would have made headlines.

kobie173 · March 2012

Originally posted by //\//\oo

Originally posted by kobie173

Clearly that picture illustrates that Trayvon Martin deserved to be followed through a neighborhood and shot dead.

Pure character assassination of a dead kid.



   You make it sound as if he were murdered i.e. Zimmerman had followed him with the intent of killing him. If he had, then why did he call the police?

   Completely neglecting Trayvons intentions, it's not obvious that Zimmerman had murdered him. If Zimmerman had had a criminal record, we certainly would have heard about it by now and if Zimmerman had been connected to Trayvon in some way the police would have launched a real investigation (if it had been drug related).

The fact that he not only called in Trayvon, but also remained at the crime scene implies that it was not likely premeditated. What really rules out first degree murder entirely is that Trayvon managed to get in a scuffle with the shooter before he was killed; if Zimmerman had intended to kill him he would have shot him before he got close enough to get the chance.

So now we're at second degree murder, tops.

Trayvons assault of Zimmerman prior to the shooting makes it VERY easy to argue that it was a voluntary manslaughter, since any combination of fear, panic and adrenaline are really sufficient to warrant a defense.

Therefore it's at most a voluntary manslaughter and at least self-defense. You and your friends can stop rallying against the hate crime of the decade, please. Although I'm sure any rational person in Zimmermans position would have done the same; had Trayvon been anything other than black it never would have made headlines.

You are accusing me of saying things I never said. Learn to read, please.

AutemOx · April 2012

It kinda makes me think of car accidents. Sometimes one person causes them... but a lot of the time it is the result of two drivers not being fully aware of their surroundings. Often one can be responsible for the accident but both could have prevented it if they had made better choices.

I was rear ended by someone recently... I was in my 4 wheel drive truck and we were driving in the snow. I stopped for a fire truck and when I did I felt my tires slip a little bit despite having 4 wheel drive on. I didn't look in my rear view mirror once, and if I had, I would have seen the truck behind me sliding into me. He had been driving a little too close and did not have snow chains on or 4 wheel drive. He was at 'fault' but I feel that I messed up too. Neither of us will make the mistake again, probably. It is sad that Trayvon had to die instead of learning a lesson. I am sure zimmerman has learnt a lesson, lol. If he tried to go on a neighborhood patrol at this point I think he'd be killed by d.a. activists...

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