You either played your games in a bubble or you're remembering it incorrectly. The PvP community going back to the beginning has always been awful and if anything griefers are less pronounce since games nowadays don't offer the freedom earlier games had. How about UO with rune and moongate griefing, or trapping someone in the corner of a room by placing a table or piano in their way.
Give me a loud mouth arrogant jerk over the griefing that used to happen back in the day.
The thing is that UO wasn't really in the same genre as GW is: UO was about open PvP, not organized PvP. You could definitely argue that D2 was of the same ilk, but Blizzard was clever enough to make griefing a lot harder to pull off given the constraints for PvP combat. D2 also wasn't really an MMO either.. so.. my bad for even mentioning it.
They are entirely different beasts. I remember the griefing as well, but this is something entirely different. I'm not sure whether it's better or worse.
It's basically like comparing people who harm others for fun with people who only view others as a means to an end and treat them as such (sociopath vs. sadist).
Apples and oranges, I suppose. However, I would still argue that as a total fraction of the population, the number of griefers/sociopaths has increased substantially.
I think this is attributable to the lack of online social skills necessary to advance (leveling difficulty), which is ironic, because I used to find it frustrating not being able to solo...
I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Do you know what the community was like in GW1? You're not r6+ so I am not talking to you.
Also if you're playing competitive games like LoL, SCII (you're only a diamond scrub, so your opinion doesn't matter), GW1 (you're not r6, your guild is in top 2000. You are pathetic.) you are bound to get a lot of people who only care about winning. It's natural. People love winning.
Still playing GW1 and this happens mostly in PVP of HA... I haven't encountered anything like that in any other place in GW1...
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
I'm basing my answer on two things: (1) The GW2 fans I see on these boards, trolling other games and generally acting like a lynch mob for anyone who says one bad thing about their game, and (2) the fact that GW2's "endgame" will be heavily skewed towards PvP, which tends to bring out the very worst in people.
Just play 1 game of JQ or FA in GW1 and u will see what is the worst community in any online game. And try finding a group in elite zones like DoA; the worst elitist jerks I have ever encoutered in a game. GW1 is a great game but with lots of jerks.
And here we have the hate.
GW1 is not GW2. ArenaNet have admitted many times in interviews that they let too many things slip through the cracks which allowed for too much competition in PvE, too much elitism, and too much segregation. They've designed GW2 from the ground up to avoid that.
Dynamic events, for example. You cannot tell anyone to leave a dynamic event, they'll just ignore you. The door is open to everyone.
GW1 != GW2.
He wasn't talking about GW2... He was explaining how community is in GW1 right now... But I haven't seen this kind of behavior in GW1 outside the PVP HA... But there, it's horrible... LFG HA, "Show me your rank", /shows rank, "it's not maxed, gtfo"...
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
Maybe in 6 months or a year it will go down, but I will bet that it will remain the same price for 6 months atleast, which is retail. So is someone gonna throw $49 away? How about when it hits $39? Are they scheming for the day it hits $19.99? I think all of those prices are > $0
Only way the price plummets is if it sucks, and if it sucks, I could care less...
I don't know from personal experience as I've never been kicked out of a game even temporarily I don't know how long you've been gaming but there have been people who have thrown away far more then that amount!
I have...
Been gaming since pong...
This is a post about gaming community, so it is in general terms, and in general, people do not flush $50 without care in the current economy.
It makes zero difference what payment model is used. Children have parents that will pay for them and douchebags have their own money. So no matter what the payment model is there is a chance of an awful community.
Not saying children are automatically bad for the community, but most are extremely annoying.
In a nutshell: Great game with low cost => f2p crowd => unbearably awful community
In a nutshell you are wrong on every level.
Community in DDO = great
Community in AO = great
Community in Runes of Magic = great
Community in Guild Wars 1 = great
Community in EVE = great
World of Warcraft = hahahahahaha....HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA, kiddies!
Community in TOR = what community?
My first MMORPG was NWNO back in 1991, I have played over 20 subscription MMORPGs and I think its way past time for a major player to build a game around microtransactions and move the genre forward and if it drives away the epeen kiddies that raid 60 hours a week...so much the better.
Its time for games to be based on FUN again and not TIME.
I love these kinds of posts..wow's average user is 32 years old. If those are kiddies are you planning on playing GW2 from a retirement community?
Guild Wars 1's community had more kids than subscription games. It also had more rude players. Random arena takes me back to all the trash talkers. You even had build snobs, which I'm sure Guild Wars 2 had - "Lolz you're using that skill? I heard on forums it was bad so I know it's true!".
I think the problem is that if GW2 launches and you still have to pay $60 and there's a cash shop, that's another knock for the greed kingdoms of microtransactions in games you pay for and DLC. That is the current downfall of the oldschool gamer. I mean look at what capcom's been doing, DLC was on the disc already for two games. Final Fantasy XIII-2 was short and incomplete, and the ending of it is on DLC.
So far in the MMO domain, only WoW has been greedy enough to try and put cash shop in the game you bought. Sad that the people who were so proud that they made an online game with no sub fees has been corrupted and is embracing the alternative to subs.
Maybe in 6 months or a year it will go down, but I will bet that it will remain the same price for 6 months atleast, which is retail. So is someone gonna throw $49 away? How about when it hits $39? Are they scheming for the day it hits $19.99? I think all of those prices are > $0
Only way the price plummets is if it sucks, and if it sucks, I could care less...
I don't know from personal experience as I've never been kicked out of a game even temporarily I don't know how long you've been gaming but there have been people who have thrown away far more then that amount!
I have...
Been gaming since pong...
This is a post about gaming community, so it is in general terms, and in general, people do not flush $50 without care in the current economy.
Oh I agree with you on that. But I am assuming you also wouldn't be the type to get yourself thrown out of a game right? I definately can't guess for sure what other people would do or how they would spend or throw away their money. All we can do is suppose and speculate and that from a perspective that is different from someone else.
Geez, some of them are so bitter that I think their hatred for GW2 has poured over into pure misathropy - but misanthropy is a common trap that MMO players fall into.
If the more misanthropic types will be avoiding GW2, then we might not need such a long ignore list.
The subject of community control in general is completely misanthropic. And for a good reason.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It makes zero difference what payment model is used. Children have parents that will pay for them and douchebags have their own money. So no matter what the payment model is there is a chance of an awful community.
Not saying children are automatically bad for the community, but most are extremely annoying.
The parents you know are a lot more forgiving than the ones I know, most wouldn't take too kindly to being asked to buy another copy of a game, because they acted like a jerk/cheated and were banned in it, and paying $0 to be a douchebag, and paying $60 to be a douchebag are a little different...
I mean hey, the community could suck, which I think may have more to do with game mechanics either way...
I mean being honest, I would have more pause pushing the envelope on something I bought, verse something I didn't have to pay for.
Guild Wars 1's community had more kids than subscription games. It also had more rude players. Random arena takes me back to all the trash talkers. You even had build snobs, which I'm sure Guild Wars 2 had - "Lolz you're using that skill? I heard on forums it was bad so I know it's true!".
I think the problem is that if GW2 launches and you still have to pay $60 and there's a cash shop, that's another knock for the greed kingdoms of microtransactions in games you pay for and DLC. That is the current downfall of the oldschool gamer. I mean look at what capcom's been doing, DLC was on the disc already for two games. Final Fantasy XIII-2 was short and incomplete, and the ending of it is on DLC.
So far in the MMO domain, only WoW has been greedy enough to try and put cash shop in the game you bought. Sad that the people who were so proud that they made an online game with no sub fees has been corrupted and is embracing the alternative to subs.
Naw wow wasn't the first, theres been quite a few mmos where you've had to pay box+sub+ they have a cash shop.STO did it before wow added in the sparkle ponies and before it went free 2 play. I'm sure there is one or two more as well.
In a nutshell: Great game with low cost => f2p crowd => unbearably awful community
I am looking forward to thi game, but even I think it's wider community will be hellish... Especially in the first month. As you say PvP culture these days is at rock bottom and the fact that the game is the next big release, and no sub to boot, will make sure it gets the worst of the worst of that type of player trying it out.
This for me is one to get a good guild and shut off global in. I have no expecftations higher then that.
The good thing I guess is that the fact that gear/ levels wont = gank in this game, so the e-peen posturing crowd might not like that. Most Pvpers seems to want to talk hard but fight easy in my experience.... it's actually very rare to find one that likes a challange in game, no matter how much he talks like Dirty Harry on the forums.
yeh there will be a horrid community, but the game is also very well designed to avoid conflict between players in PvE. This will midagate a lot of cruddy community problems?
Lol, I could never understand the tired old "community is awful" gripes. If you don't like someone, ignore him (or her) and that's it. That's what I always did and never had any problem with the terrible, horrifiying "community."
Imo the "community" is not to blame. The problem is that raiding games like WoW force you to hang out with people you otherwise wouldnt AND the raiding system is such that it brings out the worst from otherwise ok people ("more dots!")
While GW2 encourages group play, it doesn't require it like WoW, so I believe that the dreaded "community" is going to be much less of an issue than what people expect. I left WoW a long time ago for WAR and never looked back exactly because of this forced guild-raiding-drama bs I couldn't endure. But I didn't blame "community" - I blamed the poor game design which made people behave like that. The average WAR player wasn't any nicer or more intelligent than a WoW player, but the RvR endgame was set up in such a way that it encouraged the people to cooperate without actually forcing them to do so. Of course there were dorks in RvR, like anywhere else really, but it was quite simple and painless to simply ignore them and hang out with people I do enjoy without feeling gimped by the game in any way.
In short, stop bitchin about "community." It's not going to be an issue since the social aspect of GW2 is actually well thought out unlike the cage-fight that is WoW and WoW-alikes' endgame.
In a nutshell: Great game with low cost => f2p crowd => unbearably awful community
I love PvP games. Well, I used to. I used to play LoL, FPS games and other competitive games online that are now basically unplayable solo.
The PvP community nowadays is so incredibly hostile and agitating that I find it impossible to play outside of a group of friends i.e. solo.
I played D2 HC, AO etc. with PvP objectives in mind and enjoyed myself the whole time; even the griefers back then seemed courteous compared to the average MOBA player you'll encounter today.
Nobody is interested in having fun anymor. It's only about winning and the way to victory is never as important as the outcome itself to this new generation of PvPers.
GW2 will be primarily about PvP, since, as with GW1, that was the primary focus of its end game. To play through great leveling content and converge to something as hostile as LoL is sort of a mixed bag and begs the question if GW2 really has a cost advantage for players like myself.
Some of the competitive online f2p games, e.g. LoL, are so bad, that even seasoned people like myself can't bear 30 minutes of it. Maybe I'm just getting old and I don't have the patience anymore to deal with teenagers. Am I the only one who has noticed the shift in attitudes, or has my skin merely worn?
In a nutshell, game isn't even released. I will wait until then and my hands on to make any type of decision, therefore I did not vote.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Simply put if you can't play games due to the "community" then you need to find a community to play those games with. Join a gaming community of mature adults if you are having an issue with community. There are various types of communities from casual, hardcore, roleplayers, and everything in between.
I don't have a problem playing LoL because I play with friends. We have a good time. If we get a hostile trash talking enemy team we ignore it and report them. It's not a big deal.
MMO guilds are an even tighter community, so much so that you can pretty much flat out ignore what is going on across the rest of the server. It shouldn't effect you. Even for WvWvW where you might need to have server wide organization you should at least be able to form a community of mature adults across various guilds and ignore the immature people.
People who complain about community are going about it wrong. Remember there are /ignore features for a reason.
First, the game is Buy to Play, not Free to Play. Random trolls will have to pony up at least $60 if they want to degrade the community. So there is that.
Second, having played a few F2P games, I can say that the random trolls usually don't last long and the communities are really any worse than what you find in a typical AAA MMOG today.
Third, GW2 is not primarily a PvP game. The PvP looks great and provides Competative Arena PVP as well as massive World vs. World vs. World objective based warfare, but that's on top of a full PvE world and play experience that may just provide more PvE content than just about any MMO since WoW.
Fourth, the entire game is designed to encourage cooperative play by removing barriers to cooperation and providing benefits for cooperation.
Arenanet seeks to build a great community through game design. If anything, this game should have an above average community. Nothing about the game or business model signals otherwise.
Considering this game will be played by a large variety of people, I'm inclined to say that the community will be as good as the people you choose to associate with.
There will be plenty of mature players but also plenty of twats. Just choose your company wisely.
Currently waiting for the MMO industry to put out something good.
LoL is a different kind of game. It doesn't encourage cooperation, not in the slightest. It doesn't matter that you're on a team with other people, unless your side is struggling, all anyone cares about is getting the kill and making the money to upgrade their character for that match. If you're bad, you get yelled at. If you're too good, you get yelled at. If you kill someone, you get yelled at. If you don't...you get the picture.
The games are not comparable.
As for F2P = terrible community, that's most commonly the opinion of someone that doesn't play f2p games, and is on the outside looking in making lots of assumptions. The community in LoTRO, EQ2, DDO and DCUO were never better than when they went F2P. Maple Story has a huge community, and part of the thrill in that game (so I'm told) is the social nature of it. FlyFF and Eden Eternal have extremely helpful, very large communities (especially Eden Eternal).
It's not about the payment plan, it's the game. Each game draws a specific type of player, and games that encourage cooperation are naturally going to attract people who have a desire to cooperate with others. GW2 is that kind of game. Yes, the PvP is competitive, but the competition is seldom solo. When it is, will there be mud slinging? Possibly. But if you can't take that then frankly, you shouldn't be pvping in the first place. It's not always going to be cookies and rainbows after you're done kicking someone's ass.
And by the way, EVE is a p2p game. It's not exactly a game you go play when you want to shake hands with the person who just killed you. There's no better example of a p2p game full of bullies.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Lol, I could never understand the tired old "community is awful" gripes. If you don't like someone, ignore him (or her) and that's it. That's what I always did and never had any problem with the terrible, horrifiying "community."
Imo the "community" is not to blame. The problem is that raiding games like WoW force you to hang out with people you otherwise wouldnt AND the raiding system is such that it brings out the worst from otherwise ok people ("more dots!")
While GW2 encourages group play, it doesn't require it like WoW, so I believe that the dreaded "community" is going to be much less of an issue than what people expect. I left WoW a long time ago for WAR and never looked back exactly because of this forced guild-raiding-drama bs I couldn't endure. But I didn't blame "community" - I blamed the poor game design which made people behave like that. The average WAR player wasn't any nicer or more intelligent than a WoW player, but the RvR endgame was set up in such a way that it encouraged the people to cooperate without actually forcing them to do so. Of course there were dorks in RvR, like anywhere else really, but it was quite simple and painless to simply ignore them and hang out with people I do enjoy without feeling gimped by the game in any way.
In short, stop bitchin about "community." It's not going to be an issue since the social aspect of GW2 is actually well thought out unlike the cage-fight that is WoW and WoW-alikes' endgame.
Wow good post ...you took the words right out of my mouth ...the day I left raiding in WOW(2007) was the last time I had to deal with a sub-culture of asshats
Elitist game styles attract the worst crowds. GW2 will have a mix but generally it will be worse than WOW given that it has no subscription and a much stronger focus on PVP.
Comments
The thing is that UO wasn't really in the same genre as GW is: UO was about open PvP, not organized PvP. You could definitely argue that D2 was of the same ilk, but Blizzard was clever enough to make griefing a lot harder to pull off given the constraints for PvP combat. D2 also wasn't really an MMO either.. so.. my bad for even mentioning it.
They are entirely different beasts. I remember the griefing as well, but this is something entirely different. I'm not sure whether it's better or worse.
It's basically like comparing people who harm others for fun with people who only view others as a means to an end and treat them as such (sociopath vs. sadist).
Apples and oranges, I suppose. However, I would still argue that as a total fraction of the population, the number of griefers/sociopaths has increased substantially.
I think this is attributable to the lack of online social skills necessary to advance (leveling difficulty), which is ironic, because I used to find it frustrating not being able to solo...
I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Still playing GW1 and this happens mostly in PVP of HA... I haven't encountered anything like that in any other place in GW1...
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
That would be our lord and savior, Boo.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
I'm basing my answer on two things: (1) The GW2 fans I see on these boards, trolling other games and generally acting like a lynch mob for anyone who says one bad thing about their game, and (2) the fact that GW2's "endgame" will be heavily skewed towards PvP, which tends to bring out the very worst in people.
So I voted "The Worst."
He wasn't talking about GW2... He was explaining how community is in GW1 right now... But I haven't seen this kind of behavior in GW1 outside the PVP HA... But there, it's horrible... LFG HA, "Show me your rank", /shows rank, "it's not maxed, gtfo"...
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
I have...
Been gaming since pong...
This is a post about gaming community, so it is in general terms, and in general, people do not flush $50 without care in the current economy.
It makes zero difference what payment model is used. Children have parents that will pay for them and douchebags have their own money. So no matter what the payment model is there is a chance of an awful community.
Not saying children are automatically bad for the community, but most are extremely annoying.
I love these kinds of posts..wow's average user is 32 years old. If those are kiddies are you planning on playing GW2 from a retirement community?
Guild Wars 1's community had more kids than subscription games. It also had more rude players. Random arena takes me back to all the trash talkers. You even had build snobs, which I'm sure Guild Wars 2 had - "Lolz you're using that skill? I heard on forums it was bad so I know it's true!".
I think the problem is that if GW2 launches and you still have to pay $60 and there's a cash shop, that's another knock for the greed kingdoms of microtransactions in games you pay for and DLC. That is the current downfall of the oldschool gamer. I mean look at what capcom's been doing, DLC was on the disc already for two games. Final Fantasy XIII-2 was short and incomplete, and the ending of it is on DLC.
So far in the MMO domain, only WoW has been greedy enough to try and put cash shop in the game you bought. Sad that the people who were so proud that they made an online game with no sub fees has been corrupted and is embracing the alternative to subs.
Oh I agree with you on that. But I am assuming you also wouldn't be the type to get yourself thrown out of a game right? I definately can't guess for sure what other people would do or how they would spend or throw away their money. All we can do is suppose and speculate and that from a perspective that is different from someone else.
the poster formerly known as melangel :P
The subject of community control in general is completely misanthropic. And for a good reason.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The parents you know are a lot more forgiving than the ones I know, most wouldn't take too kindly to being asked to buy another copy of a game, because they acted like a jerk/cheated and were banned in it, and paying $0 to be a douchebag, and paying $60 to be a douchebag are a little different...
I mean hey, the community could suck, which I think may have more to do with game mechanics either way...
I mean being honest, I would have more pause pushing the envelope on something I bought, verse something I didn't have to pay for.
Naw wow wasn't the first, theres been quite a few mmos where you've had to pay box+sub+ they have a cash shop.STO did it before wow added in the sparkle ponies and before it went free 2 play. I'm sure there is one or two more as well.
What's wrong with competitiveness in PvP
it has to be there
stop being a carebare and start ignoring randoms in the internet
I could care less if people were mean to me
I am looking forward to thi game, but even I think it's wider community will be hellish... Especially in the first month. As you say PvP culture these days is at rock bottom and the fact that the game is the next big release, and no sub to boot, will make sure it gets the worst of the worst of that type of player trying it out.
This for me is one to get a good guild and shut off global in. I have no expecftations higher then that.
The good thing I guess is that the fact that gear/ levels wont = gank in this game, so the e-peen posturing crowd might not like that. Most Pvpers seems to want to talk hard but fight easy in my experience.... it's actually very rare to find one that likes a challange in game, no matter how much he talks like Dirty Harry on the forums.
That's true, but moderation is always a variable and GW1 never was that heavily moderated (at least not like a P2P MMO, but that is to be expected).
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
yeh there will be a horrid community, but the game is also very well designed to avoid conflict between players in PvE. This will midagate a lot of cruddy community problems?
Lol, I could never understand the tired old "community is awful" gripes. If you don't like someone, ignore him (or her) and that's it. That's what I always did and never had any problem with the terrible, horrifiying "community."
Imo the "community" is not to blame. The problem is that raiding games like WoW force you to hang out with people you otherwise wouldnt AND the raiding system is such that it brings out the worst from otherwise ok people ("more dots!")
While GW2 encourages group play, it doesn't require it like WoW, so I believe that the dreaded "community" is going to be much less of an issue than what people expect. I left WoW a long time ago for WAR and never looked back exactly because of this forced guild-raiding-drama bs I couldn't endure. But I didn't blame "community" - I blamed the poor game design which made people behave like that. The average WAR player wasn't any nicer or more intelligent than a WoW player, but the RvR endgame was set up in such a way that it encouraged the people to cooperate without actually forcing them to do so. Of course there were dorks in RvR, like anywhere else really, but it was quite simple and painless to simply ignore them and hang out with people I do enjoy without feeling gimped by the game in any way.
In short, stop bitchin about "community." It's not going to be an issue since the social aspect of GW2 is actually well thought out unlike the cage-fight that is WoW and WoW-alikes' endgame.
In a nutshell, game isn't even released. I will wait until then and my hands on to make any type of decision, therefore I did not vote.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Simply put if you can't play games due to the "community" then you need to find a community to play those games with. Join a gaming community of mature adults if you are having an issue with community. There are various types of communities from casual, hardcore, roleplayers, and everything in between.
I don't have a problem playing LoL because I play with friends. We have a good time. If we get a hostile trash talking enemy team we ignore it and report them. It's not a big deal.
MMO guilds are an even tighter community, so much so that you can pretty much flat out ignore what is going on across the rest of the server. It shouldn't effect you. Even for WvWvW where you might need to have server wide organization you should at least be able to form a community of mature adults across various guilds and ignore the immature people.
People who complain about community are going about it wrong. Remember there are /ignore features for a reason.
First, the game is Buy to Play, not Free to Play. Random trolls will have to pony up at least $60 if they want to degrade the community. So there is that.
Second, having played a few F2P games, I can say that the random trolls usually don't last long and the communities are really any worse than what you find in a typical AAA MMOG today.
Third, GW2 is not primarily a PvP game. The PvP looks great and provides Competative Arena PVP as well as massive World vs. World vs. World objective based warfare, but that's on top of a full PvE world and play experience that may just provide more PvE content than just about any MMO since WoW.
Fourth, the entire game is designed to encourage cooperative play by removing barriers to cooperation and providing benefits for cooperation.
Arenanet seeks to build a great community through game design. If anything, this game should have an above average community. Nothing about the game or business model signals otherwise.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Considering this game will be played by a large variety of people, I'm inclined to say that the community will be as good as the people you choose to associate with.
There will be plenty of mature players but also plenty of twats. Just choose your company wisely.
LoL is a different kind of game. It doesn't encourage cooperation, not in the slightest. It doesn't matter that you're on a team with other people, unless your side is struggling, all anyone cares about is getting the kill and making the money to upgrade their character for that match. If you're bad, you get yelled at. If you're too good, you get yelled at. If you kill someone, you get yelled at. If you don't...you get the picture.
The games are not comparable.
As for F2P = terrible community, that's most commonly the opinion of someone that doesn't play f2p games, and is on the outside looking in making lots of assumptions. The community in LoTRO, EQ2, DDO and DCUO were never better than when they went F2P. Maple Story has a huge community, and part of the thrill in that game (so I'm told) is the social nature of it. FlyFF and Eden Eternal have extremely helpful, very large communities (especially Eden Eternal).
It's not about the payment plan, it's the game. Each game draws a specific type of player, and games that encourage cooperation are naturally going to attract people who have a desire to cooperate with others. GW2 is that kind of game. Yes, the PvP is competitive, but the competition is seldom solo. When it is, will there be mud slinging? Possibly. But if you can't take that then frankly, you shouldn't be pvping in the first place. It's not always going to be cookies and rainbows after you're done kicking someone's ass.
And by the way, EVE is a p2p game. It's not exactly a game you go play when you want to shake hands with the person who just killed you. There's no better example of a p2p game full of bullies.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Wow good post ...you took the words right out of my mouth ...the day I left raiding in WOW(2007) was the last time I had to deal with a sub-culture of asshats
Elitist game styles attract the worst crowds. GW2 will have a mix but generally it will be worse than WOW given that it has no subscription and a much stronger focus on PVP.