I don't believe that there is anything in GW2 that is p2w as GW1 did not have p2w.
But if anyone spends money for the in game items that come with the collectors editions then you would think that they are ok with using the store to buy items that give you an advantage over the next guy.
An advantage is an advantage any way you slice it.
(Off Topic, Part 1) Either he suddenly realized his argument wasn't very sound and deleted his account out of embarassment, or the mods deleted him.
(Off Topic, Part 2) There certainly are a ton of nutters (or paid EA and Blizzard trolls) as this game readies itself for sale, eh?
A cash shop in lieu of a subscription is the most economically fair model, considering the nose dive in server costs over the past 5 years. $15.00 a month is gouging the customer. Unscrupulous companies have no qualms with ripping off their customers.
According to Jad Raddoff author of anatomy of an MMO, the average cost for a AAA MMO is $10 million to develop. This does not include the cost to market or for upkeep. Unlike a AAA console game title, which costs between 3 to 6 million dollars and has no future upkeep and maintainance costs, says Erik Bethke in his book Game development and production.
Arenanet has been working on this game since 2007, when it was announced, and it is safe to presume that they have not been paid for this game since its development.
A Lexus/Nexus search of Arenanet finds that they have 270 employees. This would mean that for 5 years, these 270 employees have not been paid from the earnings of Guild Wars 2. According to the US Census, the average american makes 50,000 a year.
So lets observe the debt that Arenanet is already in to provide us this great game. That would mean that, just for salaries, they are in the hole 67 million just to feed the people who work for their company who must put food on their tables. Let's say they sell 1 million units. They would still not recoup their salary costs. This does not include equipment or marketing.
I firmly believe that no one wants people to not eat or support their families. So, off of this presumption one of two things we would have to agree with.
Guild Wars 2 would need to generate income to support servers, and future endeavors of their staff. Or Guild Wars would have to not support the game after release in order to not go into further debt.
I think we all agree that a nonsupported MMO is not plausable. However, it could very well go the route of the first Diablo. Just open up the game and not worry about bug fixes, extra content or balancing issue.
But lets presume that the best choice is to generate more revenue. So, it means that we would have to support it. The two popular models are through a cash shop or through subscription fees.
The Cash shop, is popular by many successful MMOs because it allows the user to dictate the amount of money they want to spend a month on the game. It allows people who do not wish to pay a monthly fee to still play, most times at full capacity. This maintains a steady user base for the people who do pay, and keeps them continuing to pay. In many ways, this is the best function of the Cashshop or free2play model. Some games misuse the cash shop and include items that players must buy in order to compete at a high level. This is referred to as pay to win. pay to win refers to players who must pay money to "win" or to have access to beating high level content. This is usually achieved with items that improve stats or that are needed to improve stats. For instance, in Runes of Magic, in order to get the back stat, you must buy a cape from the item shop. Without the cape, you can loose a quarter of your statistical bonuses. In order to playtowin, items in the shop must either prevent content or prevent you from doing content without it. Most successful cash shops, and by successful I mean games that are earning profit and have low player complaints about the cash shop, do so by allowing bonuses to non competitive statistics. XP, Ingame gold, crafting time and travel time.
The subscription module is losing popularity because it requires all users to pay, and those who do not pay can not play. This drops the population, thus making it more difficult for paying customers who need more players to do specific content.
Heh , you gotta be pretty naive on believing that a game that is F2P with a cash shop won't be B2W. Even if the Devs say otherwise. Scratching this game off my list of trials , NEXT!
Too bad 95% of the gaming community are on social welfare and can't support a 10-15$ a month MMO , we would of had ALOT of epic titles.
Your pritty naive yourself beleiving any game with a cash shop is B2W before you even tried it.
Heh , you gotta be pretty naive on believing that a game that is F2P with a cash shop won't be B2W. Even if the Devs say otherwise. Scratching this game off my list of trials , NEXT!
Too bad 95% of the gaming community are on social welfare and can't support a 10-15$ a month MMO , we would of had ALOT of epic titles.
THIS ... lol
You're both full of baloney. We've been paying monthly fees for years, so where are all these epic titles?
Unfortunately, once so many game companies say the cash cow that was the 15 bucks subscription, the quality of the game actually fell off.
FOrcing game studios to do better by speaking with our pocketbook is the only way to regain the power and bring creativity back. GW2 allows that. Buy the game play it a month, u like it u never haveto pay a dime, u dont like it u never have to pay a dime. HOpefully though you will support them if you likei t that month, even if you are just buying trinkets.
Heh , you gotta be pretty naive on believing that a game that is F2P with a cash shop won't be B2W. Even if the Devs say otherwise. Scratching this game off my list of trials , NEXT!
Too bad 95% of the gaming community are on social welfare and can't support a 10-15$ a month MMO , we would of had ALOT of epic titles.
THIS ... lol
You're both full of baloney. We've been paying monthly fees for years, so where are all these epic titles?
According to Jad Raddoff author of anatomy of an MMO, the average cost for a AAA MMO is $10 million to develop. This does not include the cost to market or for upkeep. Unlike a AAA console game title, which costs between 3 to 6 million dollars and has no future upkeep and maintainance costs, says Erik Bethke in his book Game development and production.
Arenanet has been working on this game since 2007, when it was announced, and it is safe to presume that they have not been paid for this game since its development.
A Lexus/Nexus search of Arenanet finds that they have 270 employees. This would mean that for 5 years, these 270 employees have not been paid from the earnings of Guild Wars 2. According to the US Census, the average american makes 50,000 a year.
So lets observe the debt that Arenanet is already in to provide us this great game. That would mean that, just for salaries, they are in the hole 67 million just to feed the people who work for their company who must put food on their tables. Let's say they sell 1 million units. They would still not recoup their salary costs. This does not include equipment or marketing.
You are right. Guild Wars 1 sold 6.5 million boxes in 3 years. No way GW2 would recoup those costs if they went with a B2P business model.
The subscription module is losing popularity because it requires all users to pay, and those who do not pay can not play. This drops the population, thus making it more difficult for paying customers who need more players to do specific content.
The subscription model isn't losing popularity with players. Publishers like P2W because it has a low cost of development, maintence, and can support a lower population game. The risk is a lot lower when you only need 10,000 - 50,000 active users, and 10% of those to purchase items from your game.
Wow ze topic changed, but I hope the OP got his answers.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Heh , you gotta be pretty naive on believing that a game that is F2P with a cash shop won't be B2W. Even if the Devs say otherwise. Scratching this game off my list of trials , NEXT!
Too bad 95% of the gaming community are on social welfare and can't support a 10-15$ a month MMO , we would of had ALOT of epic titles.
THIS ... lol
You're both full of baloney. We've been paying monthly fees for years, so where are all these epic titles?
because you don't win when you unlock them, nor are you made better than those who don't.
They might as well just replace some of your inventory slots with advertisements to the cash shop. It is basically the same thing.
This aspect of GW2 I do not consider pay2win, just obnoxious and crass in game cash shop advertisements.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Would someone please explain why ANYTHING bought from the cash shop (whether real or perceived) bothers them ?
As I understand it if you buy gems for real money you can only turn that into in game gold by selling the gems to another player.
Why would anyone be bothered if you can buy experience scrolls ? So another player can level faster than you. Big deal. Why is that a problem ? I will tell you - JEALOUSY. The whole CS debate is just a complete waste of time IMHO.
Would someone please explain why ANYTHING bought from the cash shop (whether real or perceived) bothers them ?
the only thing that would bother me is constant injection of the cash shop into my experience, basically it being indoctrined into the experience at every {or every other} step of the way. Large on-screen icons, long grinds to get things that are designed as an incentive to just buy it with cash/gems, etc.. That sort of thing would ruin the game IMO.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I would like to see how anyone can logically come to the conclusion that chests which can only be unlocked by buying keys from the cash shop isnt Pay 2 win.
Cuz i dont think anyone can and if they do claim its not Pay 2 win I think they are being willfully ignorant and/or intellectually dishonest.
So lets hear it. Defend this obvious pay 2 win scam.
win what? A gear that will get replaced after a few levels?? Or gear that is in the same tier as every other gear at max level?
No matter how you haters try. Fact is fact. Spare us your ignorance.
Would someone please explain why ANYTHING bought from the cash shop (whether real or perceived) bothers them ?
As I understand it if you buy gems for real money you can only turn that into in game gold by selling the gems to another player.
Why would anyone be bothered if you can buy experience scrolls ? So another player can level faster than you. Big deal. Why is that a problem ? I will tell you - JEALOUSY. The whole CS debate is just a complete waste of time IMHO.
because they are leechers who dont wish to spend an extra penny and just want to f2p. The majority of us will use the monthly $15 we saved and spend on the cashshop.
Unfortunately, once so many game companies say the cash cow that was the 15 bucks subscription, the quality of the game actually fell off.
FOrcing game studios to do better by speaking with our pocketbook is the only way to regain the power and bring creativity back. GW2 allows that. Buy the game play it a month, u like it u never haveto pay a dime, u dont like it u never have to pay a dime. HOpefully though you will support them if you likei t that month, even if you are just buying trinkets.
I agree. Your pocketbook can be your voice, up to and including not buying the game, but frankly, I doubt the CS is gonna destroy the game.
Would someone please explain why ANYTHING bought from the cash shop (whether real or perceived) bothers them ?
the only thing that would bother me is constant injection of the cash shop into my experience, basically it being indoctrined into the experience at every {or every other} step of the way. Large on-screen icons, long grinds to get things that are designed as an incentive to just buy it with cash/gems, etc.. That sort of thing would ruin the game IMO.
This!
Other than that, I have almost 0 issue with it (I strongly loathe the fact you can buy guild influence with gold, I hope they'll change that)
Oh and one more thing, I posted it few times before, noone really reply to it
What do you consider Xpacs in P2P games such as in world of warcraft ?? Isnt it a premium content you cant acces without paying additional money?? It also usually contains much stronger gear, spells, levels and basicaly all kind of stuff that will definately make you stronger than people who didnt buy the Xpac - Which pretty much makes all those Xpacs a P2W games...You all just have been somehow tricked into not realising it IMO
Noone ever seemed to bother with that
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
the only thing that would bother me is constant injection of the cash shop into my experience, basically it being indoctrined into the experience at every {or every other} step of the way. Large on-screen icons, long grinds to get things that are designed as an incentive to just buy it with cash/gems, etc.. That sort of thing would ruin the game IMO.
This!
Other than that, I have almost 0 issue with it (I strongly loathe the fact you can buy guild influence with gold, I hope they'll change that)
Comments
Oh yea
I forgot ....im so brainless ill quit posting now and wake up a little before i try and support my argument .
You guys got me on that one!
/slaps self in face..
I hope this is a troll, infact... im going to report it as a troll and let the moderators decide.
Just incase it isn't. WoW had a subscription fee... it didnt run on hot air, it had a cash flow.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
I don't believe that there is anything in GW2 that is p2w as GW1 did not have p2w.
But if anyone spends money for the in game items that come with the collectors editions then you would think that they are ok with using the store to buy items that give you an advantage over the next guy.
An advantage is an advantage any way you slice it.
(Off Topic, Part 1) Either he suddenly realized his argument wasn't very sound and deleted his account out of embarassment, or the mods deleted him.
(Off Topic, Part 2) There certainly are a ton of nutters (or paid EA and Blizzard trolls) as this game readies itself for sale, eh?
A cash shop in lieu of a subscription is the most economically fair model, considering the nose dive in server costs over the past 5 years. $15.00 a month is gouging the customer. Unscrupulous companies have no qualms with ripping off their customers.
That's why I, so far, really appreciate ArenaNet.
Re: SWTOR
"Remember, remember - Kakk says 'December.'"
According to Jad Raddoff author of anatomy of an MMO, the average cost for a AAA MMO is $10 million to develop. This does not include the cost to market or for upkeep. Unlike a AAA console game title, which costs between 3 to 6 million dollars and has no future upkeep and maintainance costs, says Erik Bethke in his book Game development and production.
Arenanet has been working on this game since 2007, when it was announced, and it is safe to presume that they have not been paid for this game since its development.
A Lexus/Nexus search of Arenanet finds that they have 270 employees. This would mean that for 5 years, these 270 employees have not been paid from the earnings of Guild Wars 2. According to the US Census, the average american makes 50,000 a year.
So lets observe the debt that Arenanet is already in to provide us this great game. That would mean that, just for salaries, they are in the hole 67 million just to feed the people who work for their company who must put food on their tables. Let's say they sell 1 million units. They would still not recoup their salary costs. This does not include equipment or marketing.
I firmly believe that no one wants people to not eat or support their families. So, off of this presumption one of two things we would have to agree with.
Guild Wars 2 would need to generate income to support servers, and future endeavors of their staff. Or Guild Wars would have to not support the game after release in order to not go into further debt.
I think we all agree that a nonsupported MMO is not plausable. However, it could very well go the route of the first Diablo. Just open up the game and not worry about bug fixes, extra content or balancing issue.
But lets presume that the best choice is to generate more revenue. So, it means that we would have to support it. The two popular models are through a cash shop or through subscription fees.
The Cash shop, is popular by many successful MMOs because it allows the user to dictate the amount of money they want to spend a month on the game. It allows people who do not wish to pay a monthly fee to still play, most times at full capacity. This maintains a steady user base for the people who do pay, and keeps them continuing to pay. In many ways, this is the best function of the Cashshop or free2play model. Some games misuse the cash shop and include items that players must buy in order to compete at a high level. This is referred to as pay to win. pay to win refers to players who must pay money to "win" or to have access to beating high level content. This is usually achieved with items that improve stats or that are needed to improve stats. For instance, in Runes of Magic, in order to get the back stat, you must buy a cape from the item shop. Without the cape, you can loose a quarter of your statistical bonuses. In order to playtowin, items in the shop must either prevent content or prevent you from doing content without it. Most successful cash shops, and by successful I mean games that are earning profit and have low player complaints about the cash shop, do so by allowing bonuses to non competitive statistics. XP, Ingame gold, crafting time and travel time.
The subscription module is losing popularity because it requires all users to pay, and those who do not pay can not play. This drops the population, thus making it more difficult for paying customers who need more players to do specific content.
Your pritty naive yourself beleiving any game with a cash shop is B2W before you even tried it.
Looking at that you will be hindered by reserch time rather than gold or influence or what ever u need to upgrade unless your a small guild.
You're both full of baloney. We've been paying monthly fees for years, so where are all these epic titles?
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Unfortunately, once so many game companies say the cash cow that was the 15 bucks subscription, the quality of the game actually fell off.
FOrcing game studios to do better by speaking with our pocketbook is the only way to regain the power and bring creativity back. GW2 allows that. Buy the game play it a month, u like it u never haveto pay a dime, u dont like it u never have to pay a dime. HOpefully though you will support them if you likei t that month, even if you are just buying trinkets.
this^ ...couldnt find them anywhere.
The subscription model isn't losing popularity with players. Publishers like P2W because it has a low cost of development, maintence, and can support a lower population game. The risk is a lot lower when you only need 10,000 - 50,000 active users, and 10% of those to purchase items from your game.
Wow ze topic changed, but I hope the OP got his answers.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I don't think you understood what he wrote.
------- END TRANSMISSION
because you don't win when you unlock them, nor are you made better than those who don't.
They might as well just replace some of your inventory slots with advertisements to the cash shop. It is basically the same thing.
This aspect of GW2 I do not consider pay2win, just obnoxious and crass in game cash shop advertisements.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Oh yeah, if they will put those little icon advertisments everywhere I would be angry.
agreed. it irks me too, but last i heard you can get inkeys in game too, so there's that.
Would someone please explain why ANYTHING bought from the cash shop (whether real or perceived) bothers them ?
As I understand it if you buy gems for real money you can only turn that into in game gold by selling the gems to another player.
Why would anyone be bothered if you can buy experience scrolls ? So another player can level faster than you. Big deal. Why is that a problem ? I will tell you - JEALOUSY. The whole CS debate is just a complete waste of time IMHO.
the only thing that would bother me is constant injection of the cash shop into my experience, basically it being indoctrined into the experience at every {or every other} step of the way. Large on-screen icons, long grinds to get things that are designed as an incentive to just buy it with cash/gems, etc.. That sort of thing would ruin the game IMO.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
win what? A gear that will get replaced after a few levels?? Or gear that is in the same tier as every other gear at max level?
No matter how you haters try. Fact is fact. Spare us your ignorance.
because they are leechers who dont wish to spend an extra penny and just want to f2p. The majority of us will use the monthly $15 we saved and spend on the cashshop.
I suspect this will all blow over after game launch...
I agree. Your pocketbook can be your voice, up to and including not buying the game, but frankly, I doubt the CS is gonna destroy the game.
This!
Other than that, I have almost 0 issue with it (I strongly loathe the fact you can buy guild influence with gold, I hope they'll change that)
Oh and one more thing, I posted it few times before, noone really reply to it
What do you consider Xpacs in P2P games such as in world of warcraft ?? Isnt it a premium content you cant acces without paying additional money?? It also usually contains much stronger gear, spells, levels and basicaly all kind of stuff that will definately make you stronger than people who didnt buy the Xpac - Which pretty much makes all those Xpacs a P2W games...You all just have been somehow tricked into not realising it IMO
Noone ever seemed to bother with that
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
Agreed with you and Distopia both.
the poster formerly known as melangel :P