Did people really take "fair" and turn it into a "losers got medals and now they are grown up and blah blah blah".
Name 1 mainstream sport that doesn't strive to be balanced or fair? Why is it that football, tennis, track and field can all do their best to be balanced and fair, but when MMOs do it its because they are carebears?
Exactly this. Setting up rules so that things are balanced and fair enhances the experience. IMO salary caps in pro sports help provide a lot of parity in those sports. Balance and fairness (without sameness) in anything only serves to make it better.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
I thought mmoRPG´s were pretty much online RPG´s and as such, half the fun was that every soul in them should be different, unique, chaotic, unbalanced and sport a different growth and powers and obtained different gear and abilities depending on how they chose to interact and partecipate within the world and the story.
So why is everyone obsessed about balance, fairness, other classes having cool spells or some guy obtaining the sword of doom when they do not?
Why are mmorpgs being turned in some kind of medieval fps?
I thought rpgs were about the story, the interactions and not the pew pew and how that n00b warrior does moar damage with his e-peen strike than the mage with his flaming ballz of domination.
*shrug*
i think balance is important but DEVS should never sacrifice uniqueness/coolness. lets compare LoL and DoTA. both are games where devs strive for balance. DotA is full of unique, powerful heroes while LoL is full of boring, unspiring champions. this is simply because dota devs value varied champs that feel powerful and fun to play. balance is acheived by having counters to each hero. while LoL devs want to make sure the casual player doesnt rage quit because they couldnt be bothered putting down wards or playing appropriately.
balance is an ideal that improves gameplay. i dont know why you wouldnt want it. its like saying "why do you want 20ms ping, the game is playable at 200ms ping"
It has to do with PVP, which is one of the things that needs to be removed from MMORPGs all together and be given their own games and their own little holes.
PVP should not be in MMORPGs.
Don't forget that there is a competitive PvE group too. Those guys go as far as exploitation to kill a boss first. They'll max the power of their group by limiting the amount of each class that can join them depending on what the classes can do for the group. This also leads to players screaming balance when they can't play the spec they want, because the PvE guilds will push them to play the most powerful role their class has.
Why do you think there are such heated discussions around the P2W topic? Even those who have come out in defense of Cash Shops lately have done so under the premise that they don't sell any advantages. Why? Why do people hate P2W? (It's a rethorical question.)
It's even worse when someone get's it for free just for rolling FOTM. I have always found it outrageous to be honest. Back in My WoW days, I took a hiatus and boycotted WoW due to Blizzard's neglect of the Enhancement Shaman in PVP during TBC. Why should I who invested as much time and effort into building my character as anyone who had a rogue and yet be almost guaranteed a loss in a battleground when squaring off against one for no other reason than a decision I made prior to level one? Their response? Spec Resto or Ele. Really? So I quit for a while.
I know your pain man. That crazy DEV decided that little robed guys waving harry potter wands hurts more then bullets and arrows somehow even when a gigantic dino is biting your head off over and over again somehow they do more dps.
It and the horrible excuse for engineering are THE reasons i'm leaving Blizzard forever.
Oh, don't get me started on the BM Hunter Nerf in WotLK. I felt like each class I played one afte the other, Blizz was running behind me with a nerf bat saying No! You play caster now!
I could really careless about someone's epeen issues but I certainly do not care for people who cheat to win. I didn't know cheating was an acceptable practice.
Its the nature of huamnity and it shines through on the internet, and has since the damn thing was created by Al Gore.
Cheating is what a large segment of our species does. There's cheaters and then there's anti-cheaters, in this case the anti-cheaters are the game's developers who... believe it or not... do try to stop them.
Why open world PVP is a bad thing and only gankers want to play a game with it?
Why playing longer than someone else is considered p2w on this forum?
Why having defined rolls in an RPG is bad?
Why having progression in an RPG is bad?
Why having progression in PVP is also bad?
Why are all monthly subs just a scam by greedy developers?
Why having PVP completely separated from the PVE a good thing?
Why not liking e-sports PVP means you are a carebear who lacks skill?
The fanboy soccer type of GW2 needs to defend it's game at all cost, no matter what.
We will soon hear how having karma boosts, stats boosts and the possibility to buy gold with real $ isn't PW2 because everyone can buy them from the cash shop.
"Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time." otacu
It has to do with PVP, which is one of the things that needs to be removed from MMORPGs all together and be given their own games and their own little holes.
PVP should not be in MMORPGs.
LOL
translation:
"lets remove an excellent form of player interaction from a massively multiplayer online game because im a professional sissy"
Translation: "Let's remove something that causes more design and community problems than it provides in benefits." Seriously, MMO PvP is the butt of all gaming PvP. For every genuinely interesting fight, you get 99 instances of zergs, ganks, griefs, or class/gear-stomps. And the two groups who complain the loudest are the non-PvPers and the ones who get off on the 99 instances. Removing it is actually a surprisingly sane idea.
At any rate, the reason people are so worried about "Balance" and "Fairness" is because your standard MMO today focusses far too much on the aspects of competition and achievement, the ease of which is highly dependant on class strength. There's less socialization than ever, exploration and creation are both quite limited.
A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs: That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.
Classes should be designed so that anyone who is deemed "OP" just knows how to manage their class extremely well and use all the tools or maneuvers given to him/her at the right time. Too many people nowadays are hopping bandwagon because one particular class is "better" than the other. Should be able to play the class you want and have enough tools available to become a master at it if you so desire, but that's my 2 pennies.
It has to do with PVP, which is one of the things that needs to be removed from MMORPGs all together and be given their own games and their own little holes.
PVP should not be in MMORPGs.
LOL
translation:
"lets remove an excellent form of player interaction from a massively multiplayer online game because im a professional sissy"
Translation: "Let's remove something that causes more design and community problems than it provides in benefits." Seriously, MMO PvP is the butt of all gaming PvP. For every genuinely interesting fight, you get 99 instances of zergs, ganks, griefs, or class/gear-stomps. And the two groups who complain the loudest are the non-PvPers and the ones who get off on the 99 instances. Removing it is actually a surprisingly sane idea.
At any rate, the reason people are so worried about "Balance" and "Fairness" is because your standard MMO today focusses far too much on the aspects of competition and achievement, the ease of which is highly dependant on class strength. There's less socialization than ever, exploration and creation are both quite limited.
yeh pvp is pointless in your average themepark quest/gear grind "mmorpg"
it is pretty much a requirement in a sandbox mmorpg in order for it to be a living, breathing world.
Thsi very topic is why PVE and PVP games should be seperate......WHen PVE games try to incorporate PVP then you start to have this problem......CLasses should not be balanced or fair, but each should play a specific role.
Thsi very topic is why PVE and PVP games should be seperate......WHen PVE games try to incorporate PVP then you start to have this problem......CLasses should not be balanced or fair, but each should play a specific role.
I think Blizzard was on to something though.
Raid wide instance buffs. I think those could be used to an even greater level to alter player's characters to be more in tune with what they need to be in an instance.
This would allow healers to be toned down outside raids. Etc.
Thsi very topic is why PVE and PVP games should be seperate......WHen PVE games try to incorporate PVP then you start to have this problem......CLasses should not be balanced or fair, but each should play a specific role.
so you are saying some classes should be more powerful than others? can you explain why you want it this way.
i cant seem to understand why you want a game to be imbalanced.
I thought mmoRPG´s were pretty much online RPG´s and as such, half the fun was that every soul in them should be different, unique, chaotic, unbalanced and sport a different growth and powers and obtained different gear and abilities depending on how they chose to interact and partecipate within the world and the story.
So why is everyone obsessed about balance, fairness, other classes having cool spells or some guy obtaining the sword of doom when they do not? ...
I thought rpgs were about the story, the interactions and not the pew pew and how that n00b warrior does moar damage with his e-peen strike than the mage with his flaming ballz of domination....
Well, the question is valid.
In a PvE only game balance is not really a must, just that all classes should be a useful addition to a group or raid. P&P RPGs are rarely balanced, instead they focus on making all classes fun and useful.
But as soon as you add PvP to it the whole thing falls apart. Few players can stand being owned by other players becaus the class balance is severly off, they will either play another game, change to the best class or spend all their time whining about how some classes should be nerfed.
Unbalanced games work in PvE if they are done right, we seen far too many games where some classes never gets invited to anything because they don´t really bring anything to the party.
But the only type of PvP you could have in a game like this is LOTRO styled monster PvP.
so you are saying some classes should be more powerful than others? can you explain why you want it this way.
i cant seem to understand why you want a game to be imbalanced.
The problem is that PvE ultimately centers around people killing something with 1) a limited variety of logical actions, and 2) with a massive health pool. And in the vast majority of games, this is generally done through active manipulation of the AI, turning it predictable enough that an otherwise impossible opponent can be defeated. Otherwise known as "The Holy Trinity".
PvP, on the other hand, involves killing people who are 1) capable of behaving illogically, instinctively, and unpredictably, but 2) have a much smaller health pool. Thus, a move that gives you the opportunity to take off 0.5% of a boss monster health could be fatal to another player. A move that causes a boss monster to target you will be completely ignored by a human player.
Completely different environments, in other words. And it's virtually impossible to design classes/movesets that are equally effective in both, without major modifiers being present in the background. The ideal solutions is to design completely seperate rulesets from the ground up, but that takes effort, which is why it never happens. The best we can hope for usually, is to have one of the two (PvE or PvP) be very well set up, and just endure how crappy and imbalanced the other turns out.
A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs: That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.
so you are saying some classes should be more powerful than others? can you explain why you want it this way.
i cant seem to understand why you want a game to be imbalanced.
The problem is that PvE ultimately centers around people killing something with 1) a limited variety of logical actions, and 2) with a massive health pool. And in the vast majority of games, this is generally done through active manipulation of the AI, turning it predictable enough that an otherwise impossible opponent can be defeated. Otherwise known as "The Holy Trinity".
PvP, on the other hand, involves killing people who are 1) capable of behaving illogically, instinctively, and unpredictably, but 2) have a much smaller health pool. Thus, a move that gives you the opportunity to take off 0.5% of a boss monster health could be fatal to another player. A move that causes a boss monster to target you will be completely ignored by a human player.
Completely different environments, in other words. And it's virtually impossible to design classes/movesets that are equally effective in both, without major modifiers being present in the background. The ideal solutions is to design completely seperate rulesets from the ground up, but that takes effort, which is why it never happens. The best we can hope for usually, is to have one of the two (PvE or PvP) be very well set up, and just endure how crappy and imbalanced the other turns out.
Neither 1) , 2) , pvp different from pve or the holy trinity are mandatory, we have just become so accustomed to the wow-style game system, that we for the most part cannot imagine anything else.
I'm one of those that doesn't believe in class balance, whether it be PvE or PvP. Every class should have strengths and weaknesses, that only together with a group will they overcome those weaknesses. Kind of like how DAoC was balanced.
Comments
Exactly this. Setting up rules so that things are balanced and fair enhances the experience. IMO salary caps in pro sports help provide a lot of parity in those sports. Balance and fairness (without sameness) in anything only serves to make it better.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
i think balance is important but DEVS should never sacrifice uniqueness/coolness. lets compare LoL and DoTA. both are games where devs strive for balance. DotA is full of unique, powerful heroes while LoL is full of boring, unspiring champions. this is simply because dota devs value varied champs that feel powerful and fun to play. balance is acheived by having counters to each hero. while LoL devs want to make sure the casual player doesnt rage quit because they couldnt be bothered putting down wards or playing appropriately.
balance is an ideal that improves gameplay. i dont know why you wouldnt want it. its like saying "why do you want 20ms ping, the game is playable at 200ms ping"
Don't forget that there is a competitive PvE group too. Those guys go as far as exploitation to kill a boss first. They'll max the power of their group by limiting the amount of each class that can join them depending on what the classes can do for the group. This also leads to players screaming balance when they can't play the spec they want, because the PvE guilds will push them to play the most powerful role their class has.
Oh, don't get me started on the BM Hunter Nerf in WotLK. I felt like each class I played one afte the other, Blizz was running behind me with a nerf bat saying No! You play caster now!
I could really careless about someone's epeen issues but I certainly do not care for people who cheat to win. I didn't know cheating was an acceptable practice.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
Let's cut out the personal attacks guys. Stay on topic.
Cheating is not an acceptable practice...
Its the nature of huamnity and it shines through on the internet, and has since the damn thing was created by Al Gore.
Cheating is what a large segment of our species does. There's cheaters and then there's anti-cheaters, in this case the anti-cheaters are the game's developers who... believe it or not... do try to stop them.
And why everyone hates mounts?
Why open world PVP is a bad thing and only gankers want to play a game with it?
Why playing longer than someone else is considered p2w on this forum?
Why having defined rolls in an RPG is bad?
Why having progression in an RPG is bad?
Why having progression in PVP is also bad?
Why are all monthly subs just a scam by greedy developers?
Why having PVP completely separated from the PVE a good thing?
Why not liking e-sports PVP means you are a carebear who lacks skill?
The fanboy soccer type of GW2 needs to defend it's game at all cost, no matter what.
We will soon hear how having karma boosts, stats boosts and the possibility to buy gold with real $ isn't PW2 because everyone can buy them from the cash shop.
"Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time."
otacu
Translation: "Let's remove something that causes more design and community problems than it provides in benefits." Seriously, MMO PvP is the butt of all gaming PvP. For every genuinely interesting fight, you get 99 instances of zergs, ganks, griefs, or class/gear-stomps. And the two groups who complain the loudest are the non-PvPers and the ones who get off on the 99 instances. Removing it is actually a surprisingly sane idea.
At any rate, the reason people are so worried about "Balance" and "Fairness" is because your standard MMO today focusses far too much on the aspects of competition and achievement, the ease of which is highly dependant on class strength. There's less socialization than ever, exploration and creation are both quite limited.
A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs:
That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.
Classes should be designed so that anyone who is deemed "OP" just knows how to manage their class extremely well and use all the tools or maneuvers given to him/her at the right time. Too many people nowadays are hopping bandwagon because one particular class is "better" than the other. Should be able to play the class you want and have enough tools available to become a master at it if you so desire, but that's my 2 pennies.
yeh pvp is pointless in your average themepark quest/gear grind "mmorpg"
it is pretty much a requirement in a sandbox mmorpg in order for it to be a living, breathing world.
Thsi very topic is why PVE and PVP games should be seperate......WHen PVE games try to incorporate PVP then you start to have this problem......CLasses should not be balanced or fair, but each should play a specific role.
I think Blizzard was on to something though.
Raid wide instance buffs. I think those could be used to an even greater level to alter player's characters to be more in tune with what they need to be in an instance.
This would allow healers to be toned down outside raids. Etc.
so you are saying some classes should be more powerful than others? can you explain why you want it this way.
i cant seem to understand why you want a game to be imbalanced.
Well, the question is valid.
In a PvE only game balance is not really a must, just that all classes should be a useful addition to a group or raid. P&P RPGs are rarely balanced, instead they focus on making all classes fun and useful.
But as soon as you add PvP to it the whole thing falls apart. Few players can stand being owned by other players becaus the class balance is severly off, they will either play another game, change to the best class or spend all their time whining about how some classes should be nerfed.
Unbalanced games work in PvE if they are done right, we seen far too many games where some classes never gets invited to anything because they don´t really bring anything to the party.
But the only type of PvP you could have in a game like this is LOTRO styled monster PvP.
The problem is that PvE ultimately centers around people killing something with 1) a limited variety of logical actions, and 2) with a massive health pool. And in the vast majority of games, this is generally done through active manipulation of the AI, turning it predictable enough that an otherwise impossible opponent can be defeated. Otherwise known as "The Holy Trinity".
PvP, on the other hand, involves killing people who are 1) capable of behaving illogically, instinctively, and unpredictably, but 2) have a much smaller health pool. Thus, a move that gives you the opportunity to take off 0.5% of a boss monster health could be fatal to another player. A move that causes a boss monster to target you will be completely ignored by a human player.
Completely different environments, in other words. And it's virtually impossible to design classes/movesets that are equally effective in both, without major modifiers being present in the background. The ideal solutions is to design completely seperate rulesets from the ground up, but that takes effort, which is why it never happens. The best we can hope for usually, is to have one of the two (PvE or PvP) be very well set up, and just endure how crappy and imbalanced the other turns out.
A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs:
That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.
Neither 1) , 2) , pvp different from pve or the holy trinity are mandatory, we have just become so accustomed to the wow-style game system, that we for the most part cannot imagine anything else.
Flame on!
I think this pretty much sums it up.
I'm one of those that doesn't believe in class balance, whether it be PvE or PvP. Every class should have strengths and weaknesses, that only together with a group will they overcome those weaknesses. Kind of like how DAoC was balanced.
because absolutely no one plays a game so they can lose every single time. we have RL for that.
It's a big question, but the answer is pretty short, "Because it's more fun."
Players like interesting decisions.
Balance creates interesting decisions.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It's a big question, but the answer is pretty short, "Because it's more fun."
Players like interesting decisions.
Balance creates interesting decisions.
But not when it is implemented as equalityYeah but only someone with a very shallow understanding of balance assumes balance equals symmetry.
The most interesting games involve balanced asymmetry.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Daoc is the best pvp mmo to date (well best mmo full stop)
It has terrible balance
Exactly. People are shocked at the concent of winner and loser, so now everyone loses.