hmm dont know if this fits here or not but one of the things I love about ragnarok online was the Castle fights. For a window of about 2 to 3 hours twice a week you could attempt to take control of a castle by smashing the center crystal in a keep. If you sucessful did it the crystal would immediately respawn under your guilds control and warp all other guilds out of the castle. If you managed to control the castle at the end of the time period your controled the castle till the next battle typically a couple of days. While your guild held the castle your guild master could retrieve a speical item every day and the whole guild had acess to a spiecal dungeon underneath the castle that would spawn rare boss monsters. (This was espically nice as all bosses in the game where open world and thus regualarly farmed.) Castle in the captitol city had the nicest reward and where the most fought over where as castles in the outer towns had weaker rewards. Your guild could also upgrade the castle defenses to make it easier to hold on to.
My fondest memory in a sandbox was the time when I as an Assasin class with 5 minutes left on the clock I snuck past the defenders only to find a pair of dudes running a stealth search pattern around the crystal. Preparing to die in the attempt to grab said crystal (both where higher level then me) I was surprised when they broke off to guard the door with the rest of the guild. Once they where far enought away I attacked the crystal to see there whole guild start to barrel down on me and... reach right after I shattered the crystal not leaving them enough time to run back through the castle. Was the only time my guild ever got a Prontera Castle.
That being said my other greatest memory was the time my Wow guild first down the Lich kind in a 10 man. I was off tanking and we had him down to about 13%. I get sucked into the sword and die enraging good ole Arthas leading to the main tank dying along with most of the raid. We where stoked though we had gotten him to 11% and where sure we would get it next time but as we watched this one crazy warlock kited the lich king around finally droping him to 10% by himself while the whole guild cheered him on triggering the Cutsceen. It was fantastic time.
The glory days of both of those game are past but hope developers can look forward and see that it is moments like these that define games. Building a game that lets you feel epic and powerful is the most important part.
I'm confused by all these people saying "Oh, themeparks are better because I have real life obligations and don't have much time to play."
Seriously?
Have any of you ever been on some of the top-tier raids in WoW?
Yeah...they don't take any time at all... *rollseyes*
Sometimes I wonder if the majority of the people on these forums actually play any games, or just sit here and try to be armchair developers all day long. Discussion is good, sure, but the prevailing attitudes toward specific aspects of games on these forums is mind-boggling at best.
P.S. Sandbox ftw.
This
WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys FH1942 best tanker for 4years Playing WWII OL for some years untill now many other for some months
I'm confused by all these people saying "Oh, themeparks are better because I have real life obligations and don't have much time to play."
Seriously?
Have any of you ever been on some of the top-tier raids in WoW?
Yeah...they don't take any time at all... *rollseyes*
Sometimes I wonder if the majority of the people on these forums actually play any games, or just sit here and try to be armchair developers all day long. Discussion is good, sure, but the prevailing attitudes toward specific aspects of games on these forums is mind-boggling at best.
P.S. Sandbox ftw.
This i agree with. It doesn't matter if the mmorpg is a Sandbox or Themepark, there's no difference in time in either one. If you have 3 hrs. set to do a linear handholding raid, or 3 hrs. checking on harvestors and crafting, the time is the same. The only difference is what people find fun and that changes from person to person.
With the cost of these new and shiney Themeparks coming out with VO and cutscene's that are now approaching 100 million and some going beyone that, it would seem that a proper Sandbox mmorpg that let's the players thrive and live in a virtual open world that has the systems and tools for promoting a strong social community would be a better investment.
Honestly, sandbox players just want to have a huge, lush and alive game world that allows them to go and do whatever they wish. A strong player run economy that whatever is in the game ties into a very deep crafting system that can be made and sold, out of combat social tools/systems, fluid combat and skill system that let's the player make their own choice's at any given time, huge open world pvp that the player can control when they want to and not want to participate and affects the differing factions upon the outcome, content that goes hand in hand with the whole lore of the game itself, that doesn't handhold but happens in random area's and by being there makes them part of a random event that changes the game world on a permanent basis. The biggest thing is that, sandbox players want to take part and have fun from day one of login.
Themepark players want to reach whatever the top level is in the game and then start the so called FUN end game grind. Their enjoyment is tied into getting the next tier gear and dungeon crawling hrs. on end everyday to get it. They want their pvp instanced and inside of a so called warzone with a server ranking and commendations to get better pvp gear. Everything is about you the player and being social is not very important. They don't want any type of death penalty or item decay and only cares about being the highest gear stat player in the whole game. They don't care if the game is instance's inside of instance's and actually loves following the yellow brick road from one hub to the next. It's all about combat and the only thing outside of that, fishing.
So, one let's you play and do/be whatever you want and the other stamps a number on your ass and tells you what to do, where to go and how to play. Sandbox for me all the way.
This conversation is so moot. You are arguing what genre of game is better a simulation or an rpg. how about a sports game or a platform game? first person shooter?
RPGs are questing and advventuring, u can't vchange that, u can't go back and prevent Gygax and Arenson from defining it. NO ones building ports in Lord of the Rings.
Simulation games, by design, are built so that you have to put in a lot of work and effort for any outcome. Endgame raids are sutpid and require the same thing. HOwever, as gw2 proved, you can do a traditional rpg multiplayer game without grind and without work. I just don't think that a simulation game would work that way. Part of the thirl of a simuilation game is building your final product and working for it, so you actually choose to work to reach the final outcome.
Recent discussion about ESO have lead me to idea that fundamental difference between SB and TP is in treatment of things left on the ground.
In TP they would disappear on their own in SB someone must take care of them: dead bodies must attract scavengers (rats, crows, vulturs, demons, marauder, crabs) and cleaners. It might look trivial, but such small details define entire vision. Same way TP would give their NPCs some sort of immortality and SB would let NPC die to replace it with some other NPC. That define difference between static and dinamic environment.
Control over land and ability to build houses isn't as important as dynamic web of relations (affection, hostility, interest, demand, fear ect.) between Players, NPCs and Things.
Recent discussion about ESO have lead me to idea that fundamental difference between SB and TP is in treatment of things left on the ground.
In TP they would disappear on their own in SB someone must take care of them: dead bodies must attract scavengers (rats, crows, vulturs, demons, marauder, crabs) and cleaners. It might look trivial, but such small details define entire vision. Same way TP would give their NPCs some sort of immortality and SB would let NPC die to replace it with some other NPC. That define difference between static and dinamic environment.
Control over land and ability to build houses isn't as important as dynamic web of relations (affection, hostility, interest, demand, fear ect.) between Players, NPCs and Things.
Seems more of an ecosystem then a Sandbox/Themepark difference. I think the terms SB and TP are at such a high level that they are hard to define but more importantly it's hard to talk of anything of substance. It seems like an ecosystem could exist in either and is far more interesting to discuss. I know UO initially tried to put in some ecosystem mechanics but they were removed as the players were difficult to account for in balancing the system.
Recent discussion about ESO have lead me to idea that fundamental difference between SB and TP is in treatment of things left on the ground.
In TP they would disappear on their own in SB someone must take care of them: dead bodies must attract scavengers (rats, crows, vulturs, demons, marauder, crabs) and cleaners. It might look trivial, but such small details define entire vision. Same way TP would give their NPCs some sort of immortality and SB would let NPC die to replace it with some other NPC. That define difference between static and dinamic environment.
Control over land and ability to build houses isn't as important as dynamic web of relations (affection, hostility, interest, demand, fear ect.) between Players, NPCs and Things.
Seems more of an ecosystem then a Sandbox/Themepark difference. I think the terms SB and TP are at such a high level that they are hard to define but more importantly it's hard to talk of anything of substance. It seems like an ecosystem could exist in either and is far more interesting to discuss. I know UO initially tried to put in some ecosystem mechanics but they were removed as the players were difficult to account for in balancing the system.
Ecosystem is just one facet of difference between them. If NPCs aren't immortal, then you can build-up friendship with NPC of low rank and then help with his promotion by killing his bosses - after 5 or 6 assasinations your friend would get to an important middle rank, where he would bring you significant benefits. And his old low rank position would be occupied by another NPC. And bottom ranks would be generated. It would create endless cycle of NPC progression.
Recent discussion about ESO have lead me to idea that fundamental difference between SB and TP is in treatment of things left on the ground.
In TP they would disappear on their own in SB someone must take care of them: dead bodies must attract scavengers (rats, crows, vulturs, demons, marauder, crabs) and cleaners. It might look trivial, but such small details define entire vision. Same way TP would give their NPCs some sort of immortality and SB would let NPC die to replace it with some other NPC. That define difference between static and dinamic environment.
Control over land and ability to build houses isn't as important as dynamic web of relations (affection, hostility, interest, demand, fear ect.) between Players, NPCs and Things.
Seems more of an ecosystem then a Sandbox/Themepark difference. I think the terms SB and TP are at such a high level that they are hard to define but more importantly it's hard to talk of anything of substance. It seems like an ecosystem could exist in either and is far more interesting to discuss. I know UO initially tried to put in some ecosystem mechanics but they were removed as the players were difficult to account for in balancing the system.
Ecosystem is just one facet of difference between them. If NPCs aren't immortal, then you can build-up friendship with NPC of low rank and then help with his promotion by killing his bosses - after 5 or 6 assasinations your friend would get to an important middle rank, where he would bring you significant benefits. And his old low rank position would be occupied by another NPC. And bottom ranks would be generated. It would create endless cycle of NPC progression.
What you describe is an ecosystem of NPCs.
I still don't think a sandbox is required to implement an ecosystem. The NPC system you describe does not have to have issues even if it is a quest giver in a themepark. In a simple form I've had to deal with NPC quest givers that you could kill in what is considered a Themepark. The NPC would respawn at a later time and then you could pick up the quest. However, it could be made more complicated by allowing for succession and the newly promoted guy gives the quest or a different quest if you wanted it more complicated still.
Idea makes the world more alive the implementation can be difficult.
Recent discussion about ESO have lead me to idea that fundamental difference between SB and TP is in treatment of things left on the ground.
In TP they would disappear on their own in SB someone must take care of them: dead bodies must attract scavengers (rats, crows, vulturs, demons, marauder, crabs) and cleaners. It might look trivial, but such small details define entire vision. Same way TP would give their NPCs some sort of immortality and SB would let NPC die to replace it with some other NPC. That define difference between static and dinamic environment.
Control over land and ability to build houses isn't as important as dynamic web of relations (affection, hostility, interest, demand, fear ect.) between Players, NPCs and Things.
Seems more of an ecosystem then a Sandbox/Themepark difference. I think the terms SB and TP are at such a high level that they are hard to define but more importantly it's hard to talk of anything of substance. It seems like an ecosystem could exist in either and is far more interesting to discuss. I know UO initially tried to put in some ecosystem mechanics but they were removed as the players were difficult to account for in balancing the system.
Ecosystem is just one facet of difference between them. If NPCs aren't immortal, then you can build-up friendship with NPC of low rank and then help with his promotion by killing his bosses - after 5 or 6 assasinations your friend would get to an important middle rank, where he would bring you significant benefits. And his old low rank position would be occupied by another NPC. And bottom ranks would be generated. It would create endless cycle of NPC progression.
What you describe is an ecosystem of NPCs.
I still don't think a sandbox is required to implement an ecosystem. The NPC system you describe does not have to have issues even if it is a quest giver in a themepark. In a simple form I've had to deal with NPC quest givers that you could kill in what is considered a Themepark. The NPC would respawn at a later time and then you could pick up the quest. However, it could be made more complicated by allowing for succession and the newly promoted guy gives the quest or a different quest if you wanted it more complicated still.
Idea makes the world more alive the implementation can be difficult.
I think that people really hope to find "living world" in SB. Probably TP can do it was well, but then people would call it SB. And while implementation would be difficult - it should be possible and rewarding for those who would successed.
At one point in time I came across discussion of finite resources in SB MMORPG and how it gives too much power to monopoly. But recently I heard final speech in "great dictator", then I understood that "finite resources" and monopolies constructed around them are poisonous for a good (living) SB MMORPG.
And just a few days ago I was reminded about "butterfly effect", then I understood that people dreaming about SB MMORPG actually want kind of fluid world, where their actions bring chain reactions affecting entire world without breaking it apart.
Naturally finding right solution for a flow of information across entire system is a challenge for designer, but if Chaplin have this vision of "wonderful adventure" of "free and beautiful" live so many years ago, then right answer to this challenge should exist, should be possible.
Ultimately I think the future of online gaming is going to be sandbox-style games, although you always need a certain amount of structure within them to provide the "rules" for living in that world.
Having as much freedom and flexibility as possible will keep users on there for longer than other models I think, and ultimately that's what the game companies want, so I think it will naturally move in that direction.
Most likely a hybrid some where between the two will be the future. Sandbox will always stay nitch so long as it does PvP the way it does. The majority of players do not want unstructured PvP.
Those are fair points. I guess as artificial intelligence in gaming improves we may see some really interesting concepts for PvP gameplay that create some kind of hybrid model.
Ultimately I think the future of online gaming is going to be sandbox-style games, although you always need a certain amount of structure within them to provide the "rules" for living in that world.
Having as much freedom and flexibility as possible will keep users on there for longer than other models I think, and ultimately that's what the game companies want, so I think it will naturally move in that direction.
the "rules" you speak of is the themepark element. for a fun MMO with lasting appeal, you need both sandbox and themepark elements. you just cant have a 100% sandbox type game and expect any kind of supportive player base.
SWTOR, imo, was a good example of a game that strayed too far towards themepark and it hurt them because of it. i think it started bleeding subs because people just got bored.
DAoC, imo was a good example of a good mix of both. structured questing as you leveled up, then the frontiers where you were free to roam and do whatever you want.
The trick is how to make both elements blend in and not seem like one or the other was just tacked on like pvp in a few past games.
Every MMO either Sandbox or Themepark is judge by the over all gameplay. They have to be good at every level in order to be a good game. Todays games are to focused on a few things being right and miss many of the other times that make the gameplay great.
I loved AC and EQ, two different games but great gameplay from every angle. Games today need to learn that MMOs are about total gameplay not some new combat system or skill tree, everything has to be good and immersive.
I really liked World of Warcraft when it first came out because leveling by quests was better than leveling by killing. I liked the direction of knowing what I should be doing where you didn't always have an idea in older games. After so many years of games cloning WoW though it seems like everyone is growing tired of this tactic though, I know I am. There's some good looking sandbox games on the horizon (Archage and The Repopulation are both exciting). Guild Wars 2 isn't a sandbox but it is a nice twist with less quest hub moves. I think the industry is ready for innovation.
SWTOR, imo, was a good example of a game that strayed too far towards themepark and it hurt them because of it. i think it started bleeding subs because people just got bored.
Am I the only one whothinks SW:TOR (and other games) failed for a very simple reason: it simply wasn't a good game?
I do not understand the train of thinking that being in a certain subgenre kills a game. I am really not buying that. SW:TOR failed because it didn't do anything well. It wasn't fun. It wasn't well designed.
SWTOR, imo, was a good example of a game that strayed too far towards themepark and it hurt them because of it. i think it started bleeding subs because people just got bored.
Am I the only one whothinks SW:TOR (and other games) failed for a very simple reason: it simply wasn't a good game?
I do not understand the train of thinking that being in a certain subgenre kills a game. I am really not buying that. SW:TOR failed because it didn't do anything well. It wasn't fun. It wasn't well designed.
Swtor was decent and alot of the features were good its just another basic game that you hop from place to place and run through everything then move on. Kinda makes you wonder why they spend that much time on the early planets just to get 3 hours of play out of them before you take off. Its really is crazy the amount of time that spent on stupid features instead of being directed towards things that everyone wants and needs. If anything they should learn from this but I highly doubt Devolpers will. Themepark games have just about killed all my interest in MMO's. They always seem to be the same dang thing with minor tweaks to certain systems like crafting or resource gathering. Instead of them doing something unique they do the same old thing over and over. I did like certain features of SWtor like having your crew craft but I didnt like the fact that I couldn't and that they are all assigned things they are good at instead of allowing me to train them in what I need them to do.
Themepark games just seem to be heading in the same direction and reuseing the same features over and over with small little tweaks here and there. I want a Sandbox where I can once again play for endless hours without having to worry bout when the Devs are gonna release the new patch to try to keep me entertained. Though from the looks of it Ill be 90 before anyone wakes up and decides to go with a different train of thought on how to make a New mmo and not how to copy one.
Comments
I always sayd that a sandbox can have the same quality and dinamics has a themepark....
They gave me archeage
And the armagedon starts for the themepark lill noob world
Not saying archeage is perfect,but its a outstanding start (besides owful MO and similars)
For you themepark ppl,enjoy your so beloved WoW and hes clones GW2 and tera whatever
WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys
FH1942 best tanker for 4years
Playing WWII OL for some years untill now
many other for some months
hmm dont know if this fits here or not but one of the things I love about ragnarok online was the Castle fights. For a window of about 2 to 3 hours twice a week you could attempt to take control of a castle by smashing the center crystal in a keep. If you sucessful did it the crystal would immediately respawn under your guilds control and warp all other guilds out of the castle. If you managed to control the castle at the end of the time period your controled the castle till the next battle typically a couple of days. While your guild held the castle your guild master could retrieve a speical item every day and the whole guild had acess to a spiecal dungeon underneath the castle that would spawn rare boss monsters. (This was espically nice as all bosses in the game where open world and thus regualarly farmed.) Castle in the captitol city had the nicest reward and where the most fought over where as castles in the outer towns had weaker rewards. Your guild could also upgrade the castle defenses to make it easier to hold on to.
My fondest memory in a sandbox was the time when I as an Assasin class with 5 minutes left on the clock I snuck past the defenders only to find a pair of dudes running a stealth search pattern around the crystal. Preparing to die in the attempt to grab said crystal (both where higher level then me) I was surprised when they broke off to guard the door with the rest of the guild. Once they where far enought away I attacked the crystal to see there whole guild start to barrel down on me and... reach right after I shattered the crystal not leaving them enough time to run back through the castle. Was the only time my guild ever got a Prontera Castle.
That being said my other greatest memory was the time my Wow guild first down the Lich kind in a 10 man. I was off tanking and we had him down to about 13%. I get sucked into the sword and die enraging good ole Arthas leading to the main tank dying along with most of the raid. We where stoked though we had gotten him to 11% and where sure we would get it next time but as we watched this one crazy warlock kited the lich king around finally droping him to 10% by himself while the whole guild cheered him on triggering the Cutsceen. It was fantastic time.
The glory days of both of those game are past but hope developers can look forward and see that it is moments like these that define games. Building a game that lets you feel epic and powerful is the most important part.
If youre a n00b you dont deserve to feel powerfull,since youre not
Go play tetris
Wait for archeage for a sandbox perfection + themepark quality and dinamics
WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys
FH1942 best tanker for 4years
Playing WWII OL for some years untill now
many other for some months
This
WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys
FH1942 best tanker for 4years
Playing WWII OL for some years untill now
many other for some months
This i agree with. It doesn't matter if the mmorpg is a Sandbox or Themepark, there's no difference in time in either one. If you have 3 hrs. set to do a linear handholding raid, or 3 hrs. checking on harvestors and crafting, the time is the same. The only difference is what people find fun and that changes from person to person.
With the cost of these new and shiney Themeparks coming out with VO and cutscene's that are now approaching 100 million and some going beyone that, it would seem that a proper Sandbox mmorpg that let's the players thrive and live in a virtual open world that has the systems and tools for promoting a strong social community would be a better investment.
Honestly, sandbox players just want to have a huge, lush and alive game world that allows them to go and do whatever they wish. A strong player run economy that whatever is in the game ties into a very deep crafting system that can be made and sold, out of combat social tools/systems, fluid combat and skill system that let's the player make their own choice's at any given time, huge open world pvp that the player can control when they want to and not want to participate and affects the differing factions upon the outcome, content that goes hand in hand with the whole lore of the game itself, that doesn't handhold but happens in random area's and by being there makes them part of a random event that changes the game world on a permanent basis. The biggest thing is that, sandbox players want to take part and have fun from day one of login.
Themepark players want to reach whatever the top level is in the game and then start the so called FUN end game grind. Their enjoyment is tied into getting the next tier gear and dungeon crawling hrs. on end everyday to get it. They want their pvp instanced and inside of a so called warzone with a server ranking and commendations to get better pvp gear. Everything is about you the player and being social is not very important. They don't want any type of death penalty or item decay and only cares about being the highest gear stat player in the whole game. They don't care if the game is instance's inside of instance's and actually loves following the yellow brick road from one hub to the next. It's all about combat and the only thing outside of that, fishing.
So, one let's you play and do/be whatever you want and the other stamps a number on your ass and tells you what to do, where to go and how to play. Sandbox for me all the way.
This conversation is so moot. You are arguing what genre of game is better a simulation or an rpg. how about a sports game or a platform game? first person shooter?
RPGs are questing and advventuring, u can't vchange that, u can't go back and prevent Gygax and Arenson from defining it. NO ones building ports in Lord of the Rings.
Simulation games, by design, are built so that you have to put in a lot of work and effort for any outcome. Endgame raids are sutpid and require the same thing. HOwever, as gw2 proved, you can do a traditional rpg multiplayer game without grind and without work. I just don't think that a simulation game would work that way. Part of the thirl of a simuilation game is building your final product and working for it, so you actually choose to work to reach the final outcome.
This thread exists just becouse themeparks still have some features that sandbox still dont
Graphs and dinamics
Archeage will be the first sandbox that will have themeparks graphics and dinamics,after that threads like this will not have a point to exist
WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys
FH1942 best tanker for 4years
Playing WWII OL for some years untill now
many other for some months
The war will still wage. I have high hopes for Archeage. Give us sandboxers a decent home besides EVE.
BOOYAKA!
Recent discussion about ESO have lead me to idea that fundamental difference between SB and TP is in treatment of things left on the ground.
In TP they would disappear on their own in SB someone must take care of them: dead bodies must attract scavengers (rats, crows, vulturs, demons, marauder, crabs) and cleaners. It might look trivial, but such small details define entire vision. Same way TP would give their NPCs some sort of immortality and SB would let NPC die to replace it with some other NPC. That define difference between static and dinamic environment.
Control over land and ability to build houses isn't as important as dynamic web of relations (affection, hostility, interest, demand, fear ect.) between Players, NPCs and Things.
Seems more of an ecosystem then a Sandbox/Themepark difference. I think the terms SB and TP are at such a high level that they are hard to define but more importantly it's hard to talk of anything of substance. It seems like an ecosystem could exist in either and is far more interesting to discuss. I know UO initially tried to put in some ecosystem mechanics but they were removed as the players were difficult to account for in balancing the system.
Ecosystem is just one facet of difference between them. If NPCs aren't immortal, then you can build-up friendship with NPC of low rank and then help with his promotion by killing his bosses - after 5 or 6 assasinations your friend would get to an important middle rank, where he would bring you significant benefits. And his old low rank position would be occupied by another NPC. And bottom ranks would be generated. It would create endless cycle of NPC progression.
What you describe is an ecosystem of NPCs.
I still don't think a sandbox is required to implement an ecosystem. The NPC system you describe does not have to have issues even if it is a quest giver in a themepark. In a simple form I've had to deal with NPC quest givers that you could kill in what is considered a Themepark. The NPC would respawn at a later time and then you could pick up the quest. However, it could be made more complicated by allowing for succession and the newly promoted guy gives the quest or a different quest if you wanted it more complicated still.
Idea makes the world more alive the implementation can be difficult.
I think that people really hope to find "living world" in SB. Probably TP can do it was well, but then people would call it SB. And while implementation would be difficult - it should be possible and rewarding for those who would successed.
At one point in time I came across discussion of finite resources in SB MMORPG and how it gives too much power to monopoly. But recently I heard final speech in "great dictator", then I understood that "finite resources" and monopolies constructed around them are poisonous for a good (living) SB MMORPG.
And just a few days ago I was reminded about "butterfly effect", then I understood that people dreaming about SB MMORPG actually want kind of fluid world, where their actions bring chain reactions affecting entire world without breaking it apart.
Naturally finding right solution for a flow of information across entire system is a challenge for designer, but if Chaplin have this vision of "wonderful adventure" of "free and beautiful" live so many years ago, then right answer to this challenge should exist, should be possible.
After that, threads like this will lose theyr reason to exist
WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys
FH1942 best tanker for 4years
Playing WWII OL for some years untill now
many other for some months
Ultimately I think the future of online gaming is going to be sandbox-style games, although you always need a certain amount of structure within them to provide the "rules" for living in that world.
Having as much freedom and flexibility as possible will keep users on there for longer than other models I think, and ultimately that's what the game companies want, so I think it will naturally move in that direction.
Most likely a hybrid some where between the two will be the future. Sandbox will always stay nitch so long as it does PvP the way it does. The majority of players do not want unstructured PvP.
Those are fair points. I guess as artificial intelligence in gaming improves we may see some really interesting concepts for PvP gameplay that create some kind of hybrid model.
the "rules" you speak of is the themepark element. for a fun MMO with lasting appeal, you need both sandbox and themepark elements. you just cant have a 100% sandbox type game and expect any kind of supportive player base.
SWTOR, imo, was a good example of a game that strayed too far towards themepark and it hurt them because of it. i think it started bleeding subs because people just got bored.
DAoC, imo was a good example of a good mix of both. structured questing as you leveled up, then the frontiers where you were free to roam and do whatever you want.
The trick is how to make both elements blend in and not seem like one or the other was just tacked on like pvp in a few past games.
Every MMO either Sandbox or Themepark is judge by the over all gameplay. They have to be good at every level in order to be a good game. Todays games are to focused on a few things being right and miss many of the other times that make the gameplay great.
I loved AC and EQ, two different games but great gameplay from every angle. Games today need to learn that MMOs are about total gameplay not some new combat system or skill tree, everything has to be good and immersive.
The beauty of the sandbox is that the players make the themeparks. Everyone can build an original and unique themepark inside of the sandbox.
It is the difference between looking at pictures of people playing on the beach, and actually playing on the beach.
I really liked World of Warcraft when it first came out because leveling by quests was better than leveling by killing. I liked the direction of knowing what I should be doing where you didn't always have an idea in older games. After so many years of games cloning WoW though it seems like everyone is growing tired of this tactic though, I know I am. There's some good looking sandbox games on the horizon (Archage and The Repopulation are both exciting). Guild Wars 2 isn't a sandbox but it is a nice twist with less quest hub moves. I think the industry is ready for innovation.
Am I the only one whothinks SW:TOR (and other games) failed for a very simple reason: it simply wasn't a good game?
I do not understand the train of thinking that being in a certain subgenre kills a game. I am really not buying that. SW:TOR failed because it didn't do anything well. It wasn't fun. It wasn't well designed.
Swtor was decent and alot of the features were good its just another basic game that you hop from place to place and run through everything then move on. Kinda makes you wonder why they spend that much time on the early planets just to get 3 hours of play out of them before you take off. Its really is crazy the amount of time that spent on stupid features instead of being directed towards things that everyone wants and needs. If anything they should learn from this but I highly doubt Devolpers will. Themepark games have just about killed all my interest in MMO's. They always seem to be the same dang thing with minor tweaks to certain systems like crafting or resource gathering. Instead of them doing something unique they do the same old thing over and over. I did like certain features of SWtor like having your crew craft but I didnt like the fact that I couldn't and that they are all assigned things they are good at instead of allowing me to train them in what I need them to do.
Themepark games just seem to be heading in the same direction and reuseing the same features over and over with small little tweaks here and there. I want a Sandbox where I can once again play for endless hours without having to worry bout when the Devs are gonna release the new patch to try to keep me entertained. Though from the looks of it Ill be 90 before anyone wakes up and decides to go with a different train of thought on how to make a New mmo and not how to copy one.
WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys
FH1942 best tanker for 4years
Playing WWII OL for some years untill now
many other for some months
After having played sandbox, is there any way to return to a themepark? I dont think so.
Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters, perfectly harmless until you put one in your mouth and light it on fire.