That's a slippery slope argument. It's easy to say, "So what? I don't care about it, so it doesn't matter." But aesthetics do matter to a segment of the playerbase, otherwise they wouldn't be selling them. For those people, charging extra for aesthetics means their subscription is giving them less than it used to. What if those people said, "I don't care about pvp, let them sell +stat pvp gear," or pvpers said "I don't care about raiding, let them sell +stat raid gear." Every part of the game matters to someone; the second you start charging micro-payments on top of subscriptions, somebody's getting screwed. If it's not you, great, but history indicates that they'll come for you eventually.
Well stated.
Exactly.
What people ignore with this 'it's only cosmetics' line, which I guess comes more from PvPers who only see the PvE game as something that's in the way to be endured, is that cosmetics in an RPG is a very real form of enjoyable character improvement and progression.
They matter to a hell of a lot of people or, as was said here, people wouldn't pay money for them. Cosmetics are valued by definition. So much for 'just cosmetics'.
Selling them actually does destroy the heart of the game for a big section of players.
It burns those Play to Achieve gamers when that cannot earn those rewards by actually playing the game, especially when they are paying for it with a monthly sub, and rightly so.
In game rewards, which cosmetics are, are the very reason a lot of us play these games, or at least they used to be. Now folks just shop for them... and then complain that these games don't hold us like they used to.
(maybe a huge reason for that is because a lot of the time we no longer have an emotional attachment to our characters because a lot of their development has been instant, bought from a shop, rather then earned over time?)
Directed Themeparks and sparkling Shopping Malls.... is this really what you dreamt of when you first tried an MMORPG and wondered about the potentiol they could have when technology allowed?
I wish more people could see how selling in game rewards for real money changes the very nature of the game you are playing in to something else entirely
And was there the same outcry that today's cash shops seem to be receiving?
Not at all. The extras at UOGameCodes, much like most expansions for UO, were optional. It was cool to have but not necessary. This is why I find it frustrating to see the obvious cognitive bias of people who have rationalized paying for expansions that they need to buy in order to progress further but rage against optional hat and pets.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I know what many people mean. Just the other day ..living in Florida I went to Disney World. I paid full price to enter the park but I'll be damned if they didnt charge me for all the food and beverages as well as a pair of Mickey Mouse ears and a Pluto keychain. Pay to play at Disney World and Cash shop. Bullshit!!
That's because only stupid people think it's a good deal to spend $100 dollars for the opportunity to spend the day spending another $500 on stupid things like Pluto keychains.
I know what many people mean. Just the other day ..living in Florida I went to Disney World. I paid full price to enter the park but I'll be damned if they didnt charge me for all the food and beverages as well as a pair of Mickey Mouse ears and a Pluto keychain. Pay to play at Disney World and Cash shop. Bullshit!!
That's because only stupid people think it's a good deal to spend $100 dollars for the opportunity to spend the day spending another $500 on stupid things like Pluto keychains.
Someone is a Disney hater.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Of course you buy expansions. I can see your thinly veiled argument. It's pretty weak. I played Daoc most out of all the games i've played. It would release expansions every few years? Some were free, some you had to buy.
Now here is where you put your hand up and say 'But look! you bought the game yet don't have access to this new bit!!!'
Yes, because it's an expansion. It's more than just some appearance changes to a few items. It provides new hours of play and experience. Typically expansions arn't released 2 weeks after the game is released. If i had just bought daoc, and then 2 weeks later they had said 'Here is the shrouded isles!!! with new classes and better items!!!' I'd be writing exactly the same thing.
Expansions are not equivalent to cash shops. Not even close.
Looking at the Tera forums there are like 4-5 threads on there talking about the cashshop store I wonder how many of us it is going to take to complain before they will make these features like customizations FREE the way it should be.
Looking at the Tera forums there are like 4-5 threads on there talking about the cashshop store I wonder how many of us it is going to take to complain before they will make these features like customizations FREE the way it should be.
Forums are not only a minority but in one case it was shown that the people who complain the most are also the people who partake the most.
There was an article about changing some game to f2p with cash shop. It was actually posted in some thread and if I can i'll find it.
What happened was a certain game was going to go f2p and players were threatening to quit, to boyott, etc. What ended up happening was that a huge amount of players took advantae of the cash shop AND some of the most ardent users were those that complained in the first place.
Two things will happen.
Either no one buys they ACTUALLY quit and they realize that keeping subs is the way to go; or...
More people buy than threaten to or actually quit and they realize not to listen to people on the forums.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Of course you buy expansions. I can see your thinly veiled argument. It's pretty weak. I played Daoc most out of all the games i've played. It would release expansions every few years? Some were free, some you had to buy.
Now here is where you put your hand up and say 'But look! you bought the game yet don't have access to this new bit!!!'
Yes, because it's an expansion. It's more than just some appearance changes to a few items. It provides new hours of play and experience. Typically expansions arn't released 2 weeks after the game is released. If i had just bought daoc, and then 2 weeks later they had said 'Here is the shrouded isles!!! with new classes and better items!!!' I'd be writing exactly the same thing.
Expansions are not equivalent to cash shops. Not even close.
You haven't explained in what way they are different. Yes, there is more work in an expansion, which is why the price is higher than buying individual components.
Your argument was:
"That's not the point, the point is if I grind out 24 hrs a day game play I can never get that item. I have to pay extra on top of what i'm already paying."
you stressed that a second time:
"If you pay for a game, every item in it should be obtainable in game, be it through money or time spent playing. If I want my sword to have that sexy skin, I should be able to get it with no extra cost to me monetary wise."
The same holds true of expansions, but you are used to paying for expansion boxes so you have rationalized that as ok, despite paid expansions having a long history of containing content that cannot be obtained any way other than through purchasing.
You used DAoC expansions, Shrouded Isles specifically, to support your position. If a person did not buy Shrouded Isles, how much in-game time or effort did it take them to get the six new classes or three new races?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Not at all. The extras at UOGameCodes, much like most expansions for UO, were optional. It was cool to have but not necessary. This is why I find it frustrating to see the obvious cognitive bias of people who have rationalized paying for expansions that they need to buy in order to progress further but rage against optional hat and pets.
I knew this would be your argument. You are equating expansions with cash shops. Not the same thing.
I already outlined what an expansion entails. You're essentially purchasing a whole new game. An expansion retails for 35 bucks? So how does that equal 3 1/2 weapon skins.
You're missing the fundamental point that introducing a cash shop 2 weeks after a game is launched, a sub based game, which sells weapon skins unavailable to the regular player is poor poor behaviour, and obviously money grabbing.
Looking at the Tera forums there are like 4-5 threads on there talking about the cashshop store I wonder how many of us it is going to take to complain before they will make these features like customizations FREE the way it should be.
Forums are not only a minority but in one case it was shown that the people who complain the most are also the people who partake the most.
There was an article about changing some game to f2p with cash shop. It was actually posted in some thread and if I can i'll find it.
What happened was a certain game was going to go f2p and players were threatening to quit, to boyott, etc. What ended up happening was that a huge amount of players took advantae of the cash shop AND some of the most ardent users were those that complained in the first place.
Two things will happen.
Either no one buys they ACTUALLY quit and they realize that keeping subs is the way to go; or...
More people buy than threaten to or actually quit and they realize not to listen to people on the forums.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Either no one buys they ACTUALLY quit and they realize that keeping subs is the way to go; or...
More people buy than threaten to or actually quit and they realize not to listen to people on the forums.
You know it will be the latter fella, apart from the fact that they'll already know before even planning this that forums are the vocal minority. I am not a fan of cash shops in P2P games in the slightest, cosmetic or otherwise, but they will make a significantly larger amount of money doing it this way than they would otherwise. Even in F2P games there are enough people who spend fortunes on cash shops to make them viable never wind with a sub on top. I've known people who will spend as much as a game allows and even much much more outside of the proper channels.
Sorry cannot agree with you here, not sure why a cash shop that is not P2W is a rip off, it is your choice to purchase the item and it in no way gives anyone an advantage. More games are going this route for some additional income, I think its a great idea as long as it doesn't go p2w.
I agree.. I mean, on what basis would you call it a rip off? Being able to change your race, gender, etc. is also available for free. It's called deleting your character and starting over. I don't see any issue at all with offering an alternetive to that and would gladly pay a free to change my race. It's not something you NEED to do, it's something purely cosmetic you WANT to do.
Also, on the weapon skins, could you direct me to the rip off there? I purely cosmetic item that you truely don't need. Just where are you being slighted?
Not at all. The extras at UOGameCodes, much like most expansions for UO, were optional. It was cool to have but not necessary. This is why I find it frustrating to see the obvious cognitive bias of people who have rationalized paying for expansions that they need to buy in order to progress further but rage against optional hat and pets.
I knew this would be your argument. You are equating expansions with cash shops. Not the same thing.
I already outlined what an expansion entails. You're essentially purchasing a whole new game. An expansion retails for 35 bucks? So how does that equal 3 1/2 weapon skins.
You're missing the fundamental point that introducing a cash shop 2 weeks after a game is launched, a sub based game, which sells weapon skins unavailable to the regular player is poor poor behaviour, and obviously money grabbing.
You still haven't shown how an expansion is any different from a cash shop. You just keep saying over and over that it's acceptable to sell a bundle of features - even if not everyone needs all those features and even if those features are not avaiable anywhere other than by purchasing the expansion - but you feel it is unacceptable to allow a la carte purchase of features so that people can pick and choose what extras they want, if any at all. That's...odd.
The 'two weeks after' thing was your secondary point, but since you're starting to realize how little sense your main point makes, you're now switching to a new 'fundamental point' as your fallback which, honestly, i haven't contested at all.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Not at all. The extras at UOGameCodes, much like most expansions for UO, were optional. It was cool to have but not necessary. This is why I find it frustrating to see the obvious cognitive bias of people who have rationalized paying for expansions that they need to buy in order to progress further but rage against optional hat and pets.
I knew this would be your argument. You are equating expansions with cash shops. Not the same thing.
I already outlined what an expansion entails. You're essentially purchasing a whole new game. An expansion retails for 35 bucks? So how does that equal 3 1/2 weapon skins.
You're missing the fundamental point that introducing a cash shop 2 weeks after a game is launched, a sub based game, which sells weapon skins unavailable to the regular player is poor poor behaviour, and obviously money grabbing.
You still haven't shown how an expansion is any different from a cash shop.
Expansion packs are usually a collection of interlinked playable content, delivering challanges, new systems, social adventures, and actual play.
Cash shops are usually just selling the reward, without the need to play.
Being a gamer and not a shopper in MMORPGs I tend to go for the former.
who cares if a game have cash shop. is a shop that turn game a P2W game? no....so i dont see any problem. in fact i like this kind of shop, give more money to company invest in game to make it better in future.
I love how people who attack this game constantly say contradicting things. So before this we had people constantly coming in saying O Tera isn't new its already been out for a year in Korea so its not new blah blah blah. Now its suddenly O Tera only been launched for 2 weeks!!! Come on guys at least stay consistant there.
Also WoW has a cash shop and you have to pay for expansion.....
Originally posted by Vesavius
Expansion packs are usually a collection of interlinked playable content, delivering challanges, new systems, social adventures, and actual play.
Cash shops are usually just selling the reward, without the need to play.
Being a gamer and not a shopper in MMORPGs I tend to go for the former.
Expect other game have expansion and cash shop, case and point WoW.
If i'm getting my expansion for freee thats 60 less bucks i have to spend every year and i doubt i have to buy 60 bucks from a vanity cash shop.
The same holds true of expansions, but you are used to paying for expansion boxes so you have rationalized that as ok, despite paid expansions having a long history of containing content that cannot be obtained any way other than through purchasing.
You used DAoC expansions, Shrouded Isles specifically, to support your position. If a person did not buy Shrouded Isles, how much in-game time or effort did it take them to get the six new classes or three new races?
Daoc was out a year before they released Shrouded Isles (i think), it offered a whole new game and was the equivalent size (if not bigger) than the original daoc. New classes, new dungeons, new items and new lands.
Mythic is a company, it's aim is to make money, let's not be naieve about this. The way they made money was via subs and via expansions. Those expansions did indeed provide you with new more powerful items and yes they made you more competative.
The difference was the value for money. These items came with a massive new experience attached.
A cashshop in a sub game is a joke. Especially one released this soon after a games debut. It favours those with money. Expansions are released at such intervals that even those with low incomes have enough time to save for the next one.
who cares if a game have cash shop. is a shop that turn game a P2W game? no....so i dont see any problem. in fact i like this kind of shop, give more money to company invest in game to make it better in future.
The major problem is that once they get a taste of it and see it works,it is more likely they will add more,and then more.Sooner or later it will turn into a pay to win shop just like everyone one of them out there.
who cares if a game have cash shop. is a shop that turn game a P2W game? no....so i dont see any problem. in fact i like this kind of shop, give more money to company invest in game to make it better in future.
The major problem is that once they get a taste of it and see it works,it is more likely they will add more,and then more.Sooner or later it will turn into a pay to win shop just like everyone one of them out there.
And what proof do you have? There many P2P game out there right now with roughly the exact same thing and most of them haven't gone even close to P2W for years.
Comments
Exactly.
What people ignore with this 'it's only cosmetics' line, which I guess comes more from PvPers who only see the PvE game as something that's in the way to be endured, is that cosmetics in an RPG is a very real form of enjoyable character improvement and progression.
They matter to a hell of a lot of people or, as was said here, people wouldn't pay money for them. Cosmetics are valued by definition. So much for 'just cosmetics'.
Selling them actually does destroy the heart of the game for a big section of players.
It burns those Play to Achieve gamers when that cannot earn those rewards by actually playing the game, especially when they are paying for it with a monthly sub, and rightly so.
In game rewards, which cosmetics are, are the very reason a lot of us play these games, or at least they used to be. Now folks just shop for them... and then complain that these games don't hold us like they used to.
(maybe a huge reason for that is because a lot of the time we no longer have an emotional attachment to our characters because a lot of their development has been instant, bought from a shop, rather then earned over time?)
Directed Themeparks and sparkling Shopping Malls.... is this really what you dreamt of when you first tried an MMORPG and wondered about the potentiol they could have when technology allowed?
I wish more people could see how selling in game rewards for real money changes the very nature of the game you are playing in to something else entirely
Not at all. The extras at UOGameCodes, much like most expansions for UO, were optional. It was cool to have but not necessary. This is why I find it frustrating to see the obvious cognitive bias of people who have rationalized paying for expansions that they need to buy in order to progress further but rage against optional hat and pets.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That's because only stupid people think it's a good deal to spend $100 dollars for the opportunity to spend the day spending another $500 on stupid things like Pluto keychains.
Someone is a Disney hater.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
But "again" there's very little evidence that these extra items would be in the game if it wasn't for these cash shops.
Wasn't in EQ, EQ II, Lord of the Rings, Lineage 2, Age of Conan, Vangaurd, Ryzom, and any number of games that were released.
The exceptions, as I've mentioned aer CoX and funny enough EVE as both have very robust visual character creators with lots of options.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Never touched lineage 2, horrible grindfest.
Played Eve.
Of course you buy expansions. I can see your thinly veiled argument. It's pretty weak. I played Daoc most out of all the games i've played. It would release expansions every few years? Some were free, some you had to buy.
Now here is where you put your hand up and say 'But look! you bought the game yet don't have access to this new bit!!!'
Yes, because it's an expansion. It's more than just some appearance changes to a few items. It provides new hours of play and experience. Typically expansions arn't released 2 weeks after the game is released. If i had just bought daoc, and then 2 weeks later they had said 'Here is the shrouded isles!!! with new classes and better items!!!' I'd be writing exactly the same thing.
Expansions are not equivalent to cash shops. Not even close.
Looking at the Tera forums there are like 4-5 threads on there talking about the cashshop store I wonder how many of us it is going to take to complain before they will make these features like customizations FREE the way it should be.
Forums are not only a minority but in one case it was shown that the people who complain the most are also the people who partake the most.
There was an article about changing some game to f2p with cash shop. It was actually posted in some thread and if I can i'll find it.
What happened was a certain game was going to go f2p and players were threatening to quit, to boyott, etc. What ended up happening was that a huge amount of players took advantae of the cash shop AND some of the most ardent users were those that complained in the first place.
Two things will happen.
Either no one buys they ACTUALLY quit and they realize that keeping subs is the way to go; or...
More people buy than threaten to or actually quit and they realize not to listen to people on the forums.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You haven't explained in what way they are different. Yes, there is more work in an expansion, which is why the price is higher than buying individual components.
Your argument was:
"That's not the point, the point is if I grind out 24 hrs a day game play I can never get that item. I have to pay extra on top of what i'm already paying."
you stressed that a second time:
"If you pay for a game, every item in it should be obtainable in game, be it through money or time spent playing. If I want my sword to have that sexy skin, I should be able to get it with no extra cost to me monetary wise."
The same holds true of expansions, but you are used to paying for expansion boxes so you have rationalized that as ok, despite paid expansions having a long history of containing content that cannot be obtained any way other than through purchasing.
You used DAoC expansions, Shrouded Isles specifically, to support your position. If a person did not buy Shrouded Isles, how much in-game time or effort did it take them to get the six new classes or three new races?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I knew this would be your argument. You are equating expansions with cash shops. Not the same thing.
I already outlined what an expansion entails. You're essentially purchasing a whole new game. An expansion retails for 35 bucks? So how does that equal 3 1/2 weapon skins.
You're missing the fundamental point that introducing a cash shop 2 weeks after a game is launched, a sub based game, which sells weapon skins unavailable to the regular player is poor poor behaviour, and obviously money grabbing.
Link to the article.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This is kind of a vague argument to make Sov...
Why does that line of thinking even matter?
The fact is that it is in game rewards gated off from the player unless they pay extra money. In a sub game that just isn't acceptable to me.
As ever, Play to Achieve > Pay to Achieve.
GW2 is playing it the smartest... they let me fully play to achieve while letting the other guy pay pay pay.
THIS TIME 1000. They are selling Fluff that should be included in the $15.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You know it will be the latter fella, apart from the fact that they'll already know before even planning this that forums are the vocal minority. I am not a fan of cash shops in P2P games in the slightest, cosmetic or otherwise, but they will make a significantly larger amount of money doing it this way than they would otherwise. Even in F2P games there are enough people who spend fortunes on cash shops to make them viable never wind with a sub on top. I've known people who will spend as much as a game allows and even much much more outside of the proper channels.
I agree.. I mean, on what basis would you call it a rip off? Being able to change your race, gender, etc. is also available for free. It's called deleting your character and starting over. I don't see any issue at all with offering an alternetive to that and would gladly pay a free to change my race. It's not something you NEED to do, it's something purely cosmetic you WANT to do.
Also, on the weapon skins, could you direct me to the rip off there? I purely cosmetic item that you truely don't need. Just where are you being slighted?
Sub + cash shop just does not work for me. Sayonara then.
Great, another game i won't buy.
You still haven't shown how an expansion is any different from a cash shop. You just keep saying over and over that it's acceptable to sell a bundle of features - even if not everyone needs all those features and even if those features are not avaiable anywhere other than by purchasing the expansion - but you feel it is unacceptable to allow a la carte purchase of features so that people can pick and choose what extras they want, if any at all. That's...odd.
The 'two weeks after' thing was your secondary point, but since you're starting to realize how little sense your main point makes, you're now switching to a new 'fundamental point' as your fallback which, honestly, i haven't contested at all.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Expansion packs are usually a collection of interlinked playable content, delivering challanges, new systems, social adventures, and actual play.
Cash shops are usually just selling the reward, without the need to play.
Being a gamer and not a shopper in MMORPGs I tend to go for the former.
who cares if a game have cash shop. is a shop that turn game a P2W game? no....so i dont see any problem. in fact i like this kind of shop, give more money to company invest in game to make it better in future.
I love how people who attack this game constantly say contradicting things. So before this we had people constantly coming in saying O Tera isn't new its already been out for a year in Korea so its not new blah blah blah. Now its suddenly O Tera only been launched for 2 weeks!!! Come on guys at least stay consistant there.
Also WoW has a cash shop and you have to pay for expansion.....
Expect other game have expansion and cash shop, case and point WoW.
If i'm getting my expansion for freee thats 60 less bucks i have to spend every year and i doubt i have to buy 60 bucks from a vanity cash shop.
Daoc was out a year before they released Shrouded Isles (i think), it offered a whole new game and was the equivalent size (if not bigger) than the original daoc. New classes, new dungeons, new items and new lands.
Mythic is a company, it's aim is to make money, let's not be naieve about this. The way they made money was via subs and via expansions. Those expansions did indeed provide you with new more powerful items and yes they made you more competative.
The difference was the value for money. These items came with a massive new experience attached.
A cashshop in a sub game is a joke. Especially one released this soon after a games debut. It favours those with money. Expansions are released at such intervals that even those with low incomes have enough time to save for the next one.
The major problem is that once they get a taste of it and see it works,it is more likely they will add more,and then more.Sooner or later it will turn into a pay to win shop just like everyone one of them out there.
And what proof do you have? There many P2P game out there right now with roughly the exact same thing and most of them haven't gone even close to P2W for years.