I always enjoyed leveling also, especially if the reward for gaining a level was nice......I've always been a "journey is greater than the destination" type of player, and very few games hold any interest for me at end game......
Totally with you on this.
You see the phrase "end game" thrown around on this site quite a bit. I always like the journey more.
More often than not when I hit the max level in an MMO, I usually reroll or quit.
Agree with most here. Completely miss slow leveling. Loved it back in the Dragon Quest days. Definitely more about the exploration/journey than the end game. Loved building up enough attributes to take on a stronger monster.
Its my carrot, watching my character grow.
Also agree that fast levelling = voracious content consumption, not allowing the devs to spend enough time creating quality updates. Gimme more, gimme more, I want MORE!!
GW2 was a great mix of levelling and exploring.. though thought I did level a bit *too* fast... but Im not complaining.
I truly wonder what would happen if a MMO game were ever released that had zero (and I truly mean 0) vertical progression.
No stats on toons or skill points or levels, no stats on gear...
The character got "better" because the player got better at playing the game, that was all.
They were able to take on more challenging tasks because their either (or both) A) understood the game better and were better at playing it and made more social bonds/friendships to tackle these challenging tasks with others instead of alone.
Would such an MMO work?
Could you call it a MMORPG?
I don't define RPG as requiring linear statistical progression, but rather a game where you play a role....
and a MMORPG as a game where you play a role in a massively multiplayer online world.
A knight, a merchant, a brigand, a wizard... a smuggler, a pilot, a trader, a mercenary...
What does stat+1 and stat+2 really have to do with that?
It might sound odd, but I miss games taking a long time to level.
I miss MMOs that weren't about grinding levels.
This ^
Linear statistical progression should be a natural bi-product of enjoying an amazing online experience with your friends, not the soul reason to invest in the game in the first place.
I wouldn't disagree with you. As a matter of fact I would say that this should be the only reason a person should play a game.
Problem being is that some players have forgotten this and only concentrate on leveling for the sake of leveling.
It still doesnt' throw out the long leveling curve which acts as a character's own personal journey in these games.
It might be possible to have a game where there is no leveling but I think what one would find there is that "good players will always be good players" and "bad players will always be bad players".
levels and gear help smooth out the cracks between different types of players.
You would find content that some players would never be able to do. No matter how hard they tried. Eventually they would move on and you would get a small core of players who could do the content but it would be a much smaller audience. At least with levels and gear you can get a bad player into a competant position where they could at least have a crack at a good amount of the content. Of course, there's stuff that some people will never be able to do but the developers know this. hence all the hard modes or nightmare modes.
still having a small but far broader leveling experience might allow for veteran players to play alongside relative new players if push came to shove.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I don't know Sov that is why I fully support "choose your own adventure" style difficulty like WoW has done with raiding.
Same "content" in 3 different difficulty "flavors" mostly for cosmetics and bragging rights.
I think these games are becoming big enough and the tech and development pipelines advanced and streamlined enough to offer a whole lot more breadth of content and depth of content without sacrificing too much quantity of content.
Well....we'll see how everyone likes GW2 and TSW's progression systems and see where the genre goes from there. I mention this because I think they are on to something. Make the leveling aspect a behind the scenes mechanic, where you play for the content more than getting to the next level. This way, leveling won't be your main goal and bore you to tears on alts from doing the same content. Make content dynamic and organic and scale to your level while still rewarding your current progression, that's the best way to go, from what I've seen from the beta's so far. I too liked FFXI but once you hit 55+ it got very tedious and wasn't very fun to sit in 8 hours or more parties camping one spot killing the same mobs over and over.
its funny how that works on people.
I mean have a skill, show a number, people go nuts. dont show the number, dynamic changes.
I for one suggest to people, if you dont like the numbers, dont look at them and then no massive deployment of a new game with said 'revolutionary' feature is not required.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I truly wonder what would happen if a MMO game were ever released that had zero (and I truly mean 0) vertical progression.
No stats on toons or skill points or levels, no stats on gear...
The character got "better" because the player got better at playing the game, that was all.
They were able to take on more challenging tasks because their either (or both) A) understood the game better and were better at playing it and made more social bonds/friendships to tackle these challenging tasks with others instead of alone.
Would such an MMO work?
Could you call it a MMORPG?
I don't define RPG as requiring linear statistical progression, but rather a game where you play a role....
and a MMORPG as a game where you play a role in a massively multiplayer online world.
A knight, a merchant, a brigand, a wizard... a smuggler, a pilot, a trader, a mercenary...
What does stat+1 and stat+2 really have to do with that?
Because D&D did it that way?
You just have to look at the history of pen and paper rpgs to see how things turned out for those games. Generally, they didn't have long term playability.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I'm convinced this is part of the top-heavy themepark syndrome. Once games become top-heavy, they have little choice but to shift emphasis to endgame. Since this happened, the endgame is now firmly rooted as the "fun" part of an MMORPG. People will rush to it regardless.
As long as endgames exist, the leveling process is just a tutorial.
I think this post sums up my feeling the most on these games. But its a game design which has infected the players, so now there is this top-heavy mentality which is expected of games. I've been playing D3 recently and all my friends are skipping cinematics, spamming through storyline and are like "Just hit Nightmare, gonna push for Hell next... wtf why are you still in normal". Maybe I'm the minority now that just wants to enjoy playing a game...
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Leveling in today's games are an afterthought. It's one long tutorial to get you to understand how to play your character for end-game. Arguably, it's one of the most hated tasks of an MMO these days. Mainly because developers feel you never really play the game until you reach max and play elder content.
I want MMOs where leveling to "cap" would take something like 50 years played, but the level of a character would not be "be all and end all" aspect of that character... Levels would just be "another form of progression".
Because I do hate the idea of "level cap" in a game with levels... It's hard to stop players from rushing, when there's a finite process to rush through and a definitive destination to rush to.
Of course you're always going to have goals, but it turns out, for most players, that "level cap" is too overwhelming a goal for other goals up to there to carry much meaning.
I saw this post and thread and was interested to add in my own two cents. I'm new to this site but not to the worlds of MMORPG. I've only played two MMO's ever though. The first being one that I still play to this day. The second being one that I didn't see as a MMORPG but a MMOG.
Underlight was the first one. It is extremely player driven in advancement. Almost exclusively. Quests are given by other players whom have earned the rank of Teacher and have a semi GM role in game to help teach the other players with new skills and strengthening their abilities.
It's not fast advancement, it's certainly a slow burn but every time an achievement is made. It's a semi celebration in game. The downside to this game is that is was started in 98. It's got very old (though awesome for what they are) pixel based, 2D graphics. But the advancement and Roleplaying is right on line with what most of you are saying you think is missing in today's gaming world. It still exists in another form in Shades of Truth.
This game didn't succeed ultimately due to not having funding behind their sequel and the original development company having to shut their doors. But even today with a small player base it's a dynamic game with a unique experience among even today's games.
Asheron's Call was the other game I played back in the day and did off and on for years. I really liked this game because it did have some elements of a RPG and some gamers whom would actively Roleplay a character and not just be powerleveling. It became powerleveling later on and I became dissatisfied with the product at that point.
I want to feel emersed when i'm playing a MMORPG, not hearing about the weekend's football games or anything like that. I want something that feels like I accomplished something and actually can have an impact in the game. Alot of games are very NPC driven and this winds up being another problem. Though not one I could think of a solution to either!
Just my two cents and trying to offer an alternative for some searching for a game that might fit what they are looking for! Everybody knows AC but not alot know about Underlight "Now found as Shades of Truth"
I dont necessarily miss slow leveling but I do miss extended levels. Instead of 50 - 80 levels I would love to play a game with 200+ levels like an Asheron's Call. Get the best of both worlds, timely progression and extended level caps.
I have seen some calculations for TSW and according to them, you will get new abilities for several months of 8hours/day playtime, so there is a real form of progression there that is not connected to gear.
I don't remember caring too much about levels in RPGs until MMOs became popular, then level became the point system, and that's never been the case. It actually used to be a challenge to see what u could do with the fewest levels. I remember telling people I beat certain final fantasies at level 60
What I miss is slow leveling, in an interesting to explore virtual world, where there was real danger around every corner, zones weren't split up by level range...where a level 20 camp of mobs could be sitting near a camp of level 50 mobs, so while you're trying to outrun a train of level 20s, you possibly add a bunch of new level 50s to it instead. Or you have a big ass level 75 Notorious Monster roaming around a level 30ish zone ready to stomp you if you get to close.
Where constant combat and leveling wasn't the main purpose, socializing with friends while you took on challenging content (at all levels) was the purpose. Where leveling was a community activity, with a community that didn't suck ass.
IMO Slow leveling is only a part of the equation, though I do miss that part. Slow leveling in today's theme park games with their terrible communities, would be an absolutely painful snorefest (much like the worlds they create for us to level in). If the rest of the components aren't there (and I don't believe today's developers know how to make those components work, the ones who did were either fired, or have moved on), then slow leveling by itself would be horrendous.
Slower leveling and to the point where I wouldn't even think about what is there to do once I did hit cap
Choosing where I wanted to go level... before this quest grind era
Grouping up to level because it was always more fun and rewarding. Adventures happened, they weren't given to you.
Some amount of dependancy on other players...
All those things. MMOs now are so chock-full of convinience features it's as if the games don't want us to be bothered to play them or atleast finish them quickly.
I truly wonder what would happen if a MMO game were ever released that had zero (and I truly mean 0) vertical progression.
No stats on toons or skill points or levels, no stats on gear...
The character got "better" because the player got better at playing the game, that was all.
They were able to take on more challenging tasks because their either (or both) A) understood the game better and were better at playing it and made more social bonds/friendships to tackle these challenging tasks with others instead of alone.
Would such an MMO work?
Could you call it a MMORPG?
I don't define RPG as requiring linear statistical progression, but rather a game where you play a role....
and a MMORPG as a game where you play a role in a massively multiplayer online world.
A knight, a merchant, a brigand, a wizard... a smuggler, a pilot, a trader, a mercenary...
What does stat+1 and stat+2 really have to do with that?
Because D&D did it that way?
Interesting concept Spock, I wouldnt mind experiencing. Sounds very similiar to Final Fantasy II - where you had no levels and what you did is what leveled up. Many complained about it, but by the time I played it (~20 years later) I still felt it was fresh and fun.
I think there is a fine balance between vertical and horizontal growth. Too much vertical you rush through content chasing the carrot. On the other hand too much horizontal and your risk turning the experience into the mundane. I love crafting but sometimes I do want to go out there and kill me some monsters. Be that for vertical or horizontal gain I am all for.
Stats work for me when defining equipment. If I was in a horizontal game and I wore Chain Armor I would think I would need some measurement of its worth against a foe, as well as means to increase it. While I am only increasing a number, it aids in my role play of having a higher quality gear. An achievement if you will.
I define as an experience or journey in which you grow a character into what you want them to be. Trying to find the shortcuts, push the limits of the options, is half the fun. I dont care how it is measured as long as I can measure it to witness my growth.
Would be interesting if the numerical stats could be translated into visual cues.
It might sound odd, but I miss games taking a long time to level. Don t get me wrong, I enjoy alot of games, and play some games now, that don t take long to level, but I truly miss the old days of games like DAOC, and FFXI. It took a long time to hit max, and well each level felt like an accomplishment.Maybe one day a company can make a quality game that takes a long time to hit max. I just felt the communities were so much better in those games.I know alot of people will disagree with me, but it s an observation that myself and alot of MMO players I know, agree on.
Why don't you just go play an Asian Grinder MMO if you want a slow leveling pace so much!
It might sound odd, but I miss games taking a long time to level. Don t get me wrong, I enjoy alot of games, and play some games now, that don t take long to level, but I truly miss the old days of games like DAOC, and FFXI. It took a long time to hit max, and well each level felt like an accomplishment.
Maybe one day a company can make a quality game that takes a long time to hit max. I just felt the communities were so much better in those games.
I know alot of people will disagree with me, but it s an observation that myself and alot of MMO players I know, agree on.
I agree i loved spending time to lvl my character and it never used to feel like a grind or anything like that i just enjoyed doing it..
I guess thats why i also loved playing Darkfall so much as the character development in that took some time and that also didnt feel like a grind i just enjoyed it..
I hate all this instant gratification stuff you see lately.. i know press this button and bam your max lvl ready to PVP.... whats the ponit in having lvls at all just max every character out from the start.. hell infact remove all the RPG elements as they seem to be getting dumbed down anyway.. meh
I truly wonder what would happen if a MMO game were ever released that had zero (and I truly mean 0) vertical progression.
Probably won't work; you'd have to first harvest a crop of devs who remembered how to tell a story in an RPG. If you're not pushing the level button like a Skinner box rat, you need to depend on the players to entertain themselves in some other way.
Someone''s going to insist that PvP is a sufficient answer, but I don't think it is personally. You may have to teach players what roleplay is about again...and devs hate that answer, because its too costly.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
more than slow leveling i miss GROUP LEVELING , come on since FFXI that i dont group for exp , dungeons in wow/rift/blabla isnt the same
thats why i love gw2 even if im not group i see ppl around fighting along side me
i blame wow.....
WoW had a reasonably long leveling curve at release, but since release it has strived to make the game more instant gratification, which feels meh when you get it. Guess most people are built that way and yet they still complain about how WoW is to hard, shrouded in phrases like "WoW is all about gear", dungean grinding, Top 1% of players content etc.
IMO leveling should take on average 10-20 days /played at release, adjust it down later but these are MMOs not RPGs, what is the point of the subscription if the game is so small. If there is that much leveling content there is hope for endgame. SWTOR was 3 days, tera was around 3 days, age of conan was 3 days, Aion was over 10 days at release and that game seems to be doing well.
I truly wonder what would happen if a MMO game were ever released that had zero (and I truly mean 0) vertical progression.
No stats on toons or skill points or levels, no stats on gear...
The character got "better" because the player got better at playing the game, that was all.
They were able to take on more challenging tasks because their either (or both) A) understood the game better and were better at playing it and made more social bonds/friendships to tackle these challenging tasks with others instead of alone.
Would such an MMO work?
Could you call it a MMORPG?
I don't define RPG as requiring linear statistical progression, but rather a game where you play a role....
and a MMORPG as a game where you play a role in a massively multiplayer online world.
A knight, a merchant, a brigand, a wizard... a smuggler, a pilot, a trader, a mercenary...
What does stat+1 and stat+2 really have to do with that?
Because D&D did it that way?
The numbers are the reason I play RPG's. I like the min/max aspect of the game. You can greatly reduce the vertical progression and still keep the numbers game. Just add A LOT more skills with varying effects but cap their ability fairly low. Add in some synergies and you have an interesting game.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Comments
Totally with you on this.
You see the phrase "end game" thrown around on this site quite a bit. I always like the journey more.
More often than not when I hit the max level in an MMO, I usually reroll or quit.
Levelling is usually the most enjoyable experience I have in an MMO.
Agree with most here. Completely miss slow leveling. Loved it back in the Dragon Quest days. Definitely more about the exploration/journey than the end game. Loved building up enough attributes to take on a stronger monster.
Its my carrot, watching my character grow.
Also agree that fast levelling = voracious content consumption, not allowing the devs to spend enough time creating quality updates. Gimme more, gimme more, I want MORE!!
GW2 was a great mix of levelling and exploring.. though thought I did level a bit *too* fast... but Im not complaining.
I truly wonder what would happen if a MMO game were ever released that had zero (and I truly mean 0) vertical progression.
No stats on toons or skill points or levels, no stats on gear...
The character got "better" because the player got better at playing the game, that was all.
They were able to take on more challenging tasks because their either (or both) A) understood the game better and were better at playing it and
made more social bonds/friendships to tackle these challenging tasks with others instead of alone.
Would such an MMO work?
Could you call it a MMORPG?
I don't define RPG as requiring linear statistical progression, but rather a game where you play a role....
and a MMORPG as a game where you play a role in a massively multiplayer online world.
A knight, a merchant, a brigand, a wizard... a smuggler, a pilot, a trader, a mercenary...
What does stat+1 and stat+2 really have to do with that?
Because D&D did it that way?
I wouldn't disagree with you. As a matter of fact I would say that this should be the only reason a person should play a game.
Problem being is that some players have forgotten this and only concentrate on leveling for the sake of leveling.
It still doesnt' throw out the long leveling curve which acts as a character's own personal journey in these games.
It might be possible to have a game where there is no leveling but I think what one would find there is that "good players will always be good players" and "bad players will always be bad players".
levels and gear help smooth out the cracks between different types of players.
You would find content that some players would never be able to do. No matter how hard they tried. Eventually they would move on and you would get a small core of players who could do the content but it would be a much smaller audience. At least with levels and gear you can get a bad player into a competant position where they could at least have a crack at a good amount of the content. Of course, there's stuff that some people will never be able to do but the developers know this. hence all the hard modes or nightmare modes.
still having a small but far broader leveling experience might allow for veteran players to play alongside relative new players if push came to shove.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I don't know Sov that is why I fully support "choose your own adventure" style difficulty like WoW has done with raiding.
Same "content" in 3 different difficulty "flavors" mostly for cosmetics and bragging rights.
I think these games are becoming big enough and the tech and development pipelines advanced and streamlined enough to offer a whole lot more breadth of content and depth of content without sacrificing too much quantity of content.
its funny how that works on people.
I mean have a skill, show a number, people go nuts. dont show the number, dynamic changes.
I for one suggest to people, if you dont like the numbers, dont look at them and then no massive deployment of a new game with said 'revolutionary' feature is not required.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
You just have to look at the history of pen and paper rpgs to see how things turned out for those games. Generally, they didn't have long term playability.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I think this post sums up my feeling the most on these games. But its a game design which has infected the players, so now there is this top-heavy mentality which is expected of games. I've been playing D3 recently and all my friends are skipping cinematics, spamming through storyline and are like "Just hit Nightmare, gonna push for Hell next... wtf why are you still in normal". Maybe I'm the minority now that just wants to enjoy playing a game...
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Leveling in today's games are an afterthought. It's one long tutorial to get you to understand how to play your character for end-game. Arguably, it's one of the most hated tasks of an MMO these days. Mainly because developers feel you never really play the game until you reach max and play elder content.
Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2
I want MMOs where leveling to "cap" would take something like 50 years played, but the level of a character would not be "be all and end all" aspect of that character... Levels would just be "another form of progression".
Because I do hate the idea of "level cap" in a game with levels... It's hard to stop players from rushing, when there's a finite process to rush through and a definitive destination to rush to.
Of course you're always going to have goals, but it turns out, for most players, that "level cap" is too overwhelming a goal for other goals up to there to carry much meaning.
I saw this post and thread and was interested to add in my own two cents. I'm new to this site but not to the worlds of MMORPG. I've only played two MMO's ever though. The first being one that I still play to this day. The second being one that I didn't see as a MMORPG but a MMOG.
Underlight was the first one. It is extremely player driven in advancement. Almost exclusively. Quests are given by other players whom have earned the rank of Teacher and have a semi GM role in game to help teach the other players with new skills and strengthening their abilities.
It's not fast advancement, it's certainly a slow burn but every time an achievement is made. It's a semi celebration in game. The downside to this game is that is was started in 98. It's got very old (though awesome for what they are) pixel based, 2D graphics. But the advancement and Roleplaying is right on line with what most of you are saying you think is missing in today's gaming world. It still exists in another form in Shades of Truth.
This game didn't succeed ultimately due to not having funding behind their sequel and the original development company having to shut their doors. But even today with a small player base it's a dynamic game with a unique experience among even today's games.
Asheron's Call was the other game I played back in the day and did off and on for years. I really liked this game because it did have some elements of a RPG and some gamers whom would actively Roleplay a character and not just be powerleveling. It became powerleveling later on and I became dissatisfied with the product at that point.
I want to feel emersed when i'm playing a MMORPG, not hearing about the weekend's football games or anything like that. I want something that feels like I accomplished something and actually can have an impact in the game. Alot of games are very NPC driven and this winds up being another problem. Though not one I could think of a solution to either!
Just my two cents and trying to offer an alternative for some searching for a game that might fit what they are looking for! Everybody knows AC but not alot know about Underlight "Now found as Shades of Truth"
I have seen some calculations for TSW and according to them, you will get new abilities for several months of 8hours/day playtime, so there is a real form of progression there that is not connected to gear.
I don't remember caring too much about levels in RPGs until MMOs became popular, then level became the point system, and that's never been the case. It actually used to be a challenge to see what u could do with the fewest levels. I remember telling people I beat certain final fantasies at level 60
What I miss is slow leveling, in an interesting to explore virtual world, where there was real danger around every corner, zones weren't split up by level range...where a level 20 camp of mobs could be sitting near a camp of level 50 mobs, so while you're trying to outrun a train of level 20s, you possibly add a bunch of new level 50s to it instead. Or you have a big ass level 75 Notorious Monster roaming around a level 30ish zone ready to stomp you if you get to close.
Where constant combat and leveling wasn't the main purpose, socializing with friends while you took on challenging content (at all levels) was the purpose. Where leveling was a community activity, with a community that didn't suck ass.
IMO Slow leveling is only a part of the equation, though I do miss that part. Slow leveling in today's theme park games with their terrible communities, would be an absolutely painful snorefest (much like the worlds they create for us to level in). If the rest of the components aren't there (and I don't believe today's developers know how to make those components work, the ones who did were either fired, or have moved on), then slow leveling by itself would be horrendous.
more than slow leveling i miss GROUP LEVELING , come on since FFXI that i dont group for exp
, dungeons in wow/rift/blabla isnt the same
thats why i love gw2 even if im not group i see ppl around fighting along side me
i blame wow.....
I miss...
Slower leveling and to the point where I wouldn't even think about what is there to do once I did hit cap
Choosing where I wanted to go level... before this quest grind era
Grouping up to level because it was always more fun and rewarding. Adventures happened, they weren't given to you.
Some amount of dependancy on other players...
All those things. MMOs now are so chock-full of convinience features it's as if the games don't want us to be bothered to play them or atleast finish them quickly.
Interesting concept Spock, I wouldnt mind experiencing. Sounds very similiar to Final Fantasy II - where you had no levels and what you did is what leveled up. Many complained about it, but by the time I played it (~20 years later) I still felt it was fresh and fun.
I think there is a fine balance between vertical and horizontal growth. Too much vertical you rush through content chasing the carrot. On the other hand too much horizontal and your risk turning the experience into the mundane. I love crafting but sometimes I do want to go out there and kill me some monsters. Be that for vertical or horizontal gain I am all for.
Stats work for me when defining equipment. If I was in a horizontal game and I wore Chain Armor I would think I would need some measurement of its worth against a foe, as well as means to increase it. While I am only increasing a number, it aids in my role play of having a higher quality gear. An achievement if you will.
I define as an experience or journey in which you grow a character into what you want them to be. Trying to find the shortcuts, push the limits of the options, is half the fun. I dont care how it is measured as long as I can measure it to witness my growth.
Would be interesting if the numerical stats could be translated into visual cues.
I don't miss slow leveling. I do miss grouping and challenges.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
Anarchy Online
new grafix soon™
Why don't you just go play an Asian Grinder MMO if you want a slow leveling pace so much!Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I agree i loved spending time to lvl my character and it never used to feel like a grind or anything like that i just enjoyed doing it..
I guess thats why i also loved playing Darkfall so much as the character development in that took some time
and that also didnt feel like a grind i just enjoyed it..
I hate all this instant gratification stuff you see lately.. i know press this button and bam your max lvl ready to PVP.... whats the ponit in having lvls at all just max every character out from the start.. hell infact remove all the RPG elements as they seem to be getting dumbed down anyway.. meh
Probably won't work; you'd have to first harvest a crop of devs who remembered how to tell a story in an RPG. If you're not pushing the level button like a Skinner box rat, you need to depend on the players to entertain themselves in some other way.
Someone''s going to insist that PvP is a sufficient answer, but I don't think it is personally. You may have to teach players what roleplay is about again...and devs hate that answer, because its too costly.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
WoW had a reasonably long leveling curve at release, but since release it has strived to make the game more instant gratification, which feels meh when you get it. Guess most people are built that way and yet they still complain about how WoW is to hard, shrouded in phrases like "WoW is all about gear", dungean grinding, Top 1% of players content etc.
IMO leveling should take on average 10-20 days /played at release, adjust it down later but these are MMOs not RPGs, what is the point of the subscription if the game is so small. If there is that much leveling content there is hope for endgame. SWTOR was 3 days, tera was around 3 days, age of conan was 3 days, Aion was over 10 days at release and that game seems to be doing well.
The numbers are the reason I play RPG's. I like the min/max aspect of the game. You can greatly reduce the vertical progression and still keep the numbers game. Just add A LOT more skills with varying effects but cap their ability fairly low. Add in some synergies and you have an interesting game.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville