I play all sorts of games. Mmorpgs included. I play all kinds though.
Know where Ive seen the absolute least amount of innovation in the entire gaming industry as a whole? Mmorpgs. Period.
That has a LOT to do with it. Take my word for it. Meanwhile I really dont like people saying, "Its just YOU! You are the problem! ". I guess there's some strange truth to that. Most people dont like the smell of poop either. Its not the poops fault, its THEM! Which is really kind of true, but you dont blame anyone for not liking poop. You just blame them for not appreciating the same mechanics and no significant change to the mmo genre in years.
Truth is, variety is the spice of life. And for many mmo players, it feels like they've been eating the exact same brand of cerial for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, for.......years. Literally years. Going on decade.
So yea its them. I dont blame them one bit.
That was well said, and nicely sums up my opinion.
It's not just me as I still to this day find MMOs (and non MMOs) that I love, we just had an unfortunately long and stale period in MMO development when creativity ground to a halt as everyone scrambled for a piece of WoWs pie - sadly they sidled up to the table with an inferior imitation of WoW as their meal ticket.
It didn't work out well, over all.
There's a handful of great MMOs out there (mostly made prior to WoW imo), and GW2 just proved to me that great games can still be made, unfortunately in the wake of WoW there was an indisputable span of years that produced some god awful attempts at MMOs.
Its not exactly bad MMOs, but like so many others say, the genre is stale. Its the same quest system, same crafting mechanics, same fantasy core, same everything with different shaders and textures and world design. When Tera launched I posted in the Tera forums that the game really wasnt anything new, just a different spin on the same design with a twist on combat, but just a small twist. And how the developers dropped the ball on PvP when their combat system is what it is..well its just a wonder...but I digress....
The genre needs innovation or im back to being a FPS/single player RPG person for good. Im sure that innovation is going to eventually happen, but when it happens is up in the air. Im not paying to kill 10 wolfs again, period. No matter how viciously pretty the wolves are looking. Im not willing to accept rep and dungeon grinds as endgame anymore. Thats why I quit Rift 2 weeks after I hit level cap.
And more and more people are starting to feel this way, apparently.
I think it's both/and, not either/or. That is, MMORPG's as a genre have stagnated AND gamers have become jaded and these form a vicious cycle. Devs have the impossible task of trying to satisfy at least three categories: Solo PvE, PVP, multiplayer pve--all while trying to provide meaningful end game and a crafting system that isn't a complete waste of time. The problem is it becomes a zero sum game. Throw a benefit to pvp, and the carebears howl in protest; beef up a classes' survivability, then people whine that it might as well be a single-player game; beef up multiplayer dungeons and then it's "forced grouping! rawr!" and by trying to please everyone, they end up pleasing no one.
These are games, they are not designed to replace your life.
Unfortunately this, all too often, is not the case. Development studios often put a great deal of study and effort into figuring out ways to entice players into treating their games as if they were the player's life.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
The themepark sub-genre has stagnated considerably since 2004.
Not at all surprised that many people are burned out and bored with the genre as it stands (myself included.)
Though there are a few games releasing in the near future that hold the promise of something different, and as such the hype and expectations are high.
The sandbox sub-genre has remained largely unchanged since the dawn of the entire MMORPG genre.
I'd really like to see some innovation and original ideas come forth in the sandbox sub-genre.
As it stands, it's simply too niche and (IMO) the archaic game design of many "new" sandbox games really, really hold the sandbox sub-genre back.
They are just bored of ever mmorpg pretty much copy and paste wow's formula's without the devs ever trying to innovate them at all. Only mmo I am waiting for atm is Phantasy Star Online 2, because even from the videos it does not look anything like wow clone like Gw2, swtor, rift, and pretty much every other release the last 4-6 years ended up being. Players are just finally geting sick of it and starting to show it. GW2 while it looks ok is just wow again just you go to hearts insted of town quest hubs, its the same shit as wow pretty much with no choices on where to go zone wise in your lv range either I bet.
Single player games kinda have the same issues too, its the same shitty games being redone over and over, with the only ones saving gaming being the indie devs since they are the only ones who will take a risk. Space pirates and zombies and terraria are 2 of the funnest games I have played in the last 5-6 years. Starbound which is bascally a Terraria clone will be next on the list, Starbound is bascally Terraria on crack with vast improvments like multiple worlds and such. Here is the website: http://playstarbound.com/
One of the guys who used to work on Terraria now is on the Starbound team. best thing is both games are modable so you can replay them over and over with new mods, I use about 10 diff mods for terraria that add hundreds of new items, monsters and such to the game. No modability is why i think D3 sucks and will suck compared to Torchlight 2. I bought D3 and i regret buying a boxed copy because I cannot get a refund on it, if I got it driect from blizzard I could.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
I thought long and hard about this thread topic as I read through all the pages of replies, and I came to the conclusion that there were 2 MMO's that really entertained me: pre-NGE Starwars Galaxies and EVE. The only 2 games that kept me totally entertained for years, not months.
And why only those two ? Because I could not play those games the way I wanted to play them by playing solo. I needed to form social contacts in both those games to fully enjoy the game. And "fully enjoying the game" (in my case) did not remotely involve running the same dailies or dungeons a thousand times over and over.
I treat "modern" themepark MMO's like single-player games nowadays. Play to level-cap and leave. The journey to cap is usually entertaining and varied, but I seem to get there quicker with each new game I play. I'm not a "rush-to-cap" type player, I like to stop and enjoy the scenery, which usually irritates the hell out of any groupmates (on those rare occasions that I need to group for content... ). But leveling-up keeps getting faster and easier.
Which isn't to say that MMOGs aren't boring - most are. So is most TV, and so are most movies that come out. So is most music. Unfortunately, there are very few instances where truly innovative, creative talent teams up with high-quality production values and produces a product popular enough to survive.
You don't have time to play/watch them all anyway.
There are more than enough fun stuff to keep us entertained.
I mean I will defend all sorts of games that I like, but I don't think gamers are the problem just because they dont like something.
You can't please everyone.
No matter what game it is, there will be people that dislike it, and there is nothing wrong with that. If enough people dislike something then that has value to the market.
Take sandbox gamers as an example, if developers don't provide products for them then they should voice their distaste for games. Like I said if enough of them speak out maybe they will get the product they are looking for.
If not, then the market probably isnt capable of supporting that niche.
Sure they might be burned out on a style of game, but that is no reason for them to be silenced and ignored. They are burned out for a reason and use sites like this one to be heard. Perfectly reasonable.
Of course, then there are the trolls...I won't even go there.
As you get older you find that you have to spend more and more time in the real world and that's hard for some people to accept. They keep looking for the perfect game where they can abandon their real life in favor of a fantasy world where they can feel needed or more powerful than they actually are in the real world. Unfortunately it is unrealistic to expect to be able to replace your real life with a game life and it can be upsetting when people are faced with this reality.
This would be a valid argument if it werent for the fact you're 100% wrong.
I have very high self esteem, am very valuable in the real world, feel valuable, and have a ridiculous amount of free time.
I play video games not to make myself feel more powerful than I actually am, but to have fun because I like video games.
WHY do I like video games? It's a much more simple than a subconscious pop-psychological need for self validation. They're fun entertainment. If there's ANY truth to what you're saying, it's that I play video games to be a medieval adventurer in a world of magic, because I can't go around killing people or monsters IRL with full plate armor and a bastard sword. The police would probably consider me a mass murderer.
This just in: I also don't watch Game of Thrones because IRL I am not strong enough to wield a sword or smart enough to strategize a clever plot. I don't watch The Walking Dead because I am desperate for the world to end so I can be a zombie hero, because I'm a pizza boy IRL.
My life is very happy, I feel I have tons of self worth and high self esteem. Thus my very existence proves you should go back to your Psych 101 class and ask your teacher why people play video games. (I am only being rude because my degree is in the field of psychology, and I find this post to be very misinformative and horrendously incorrect. It makes REAL psychology look bad).
The more MMORPG's you play, have played the more prone you are to becoming tired of them
"Familiarity breeds contempt" - something MMO developers of the years after WoW appear to forget for a few years, chasing those dollar signs in their eyes.
I think that when you have become so cynical that everything you see in this genre looks like WoW - but shittier, then you do have to ask yourself the question :
"Is it me, am I just that burned out & jaded that there is no fun to be found by me in this genre anymore?"
If you can't find a single game you like enough to play despite it's faults, then yes it almost certainly is, there is enough differentiation in the genre for all but the most burnt out players in existence.
I have burnt out in the past, carrying around pre-conceived notions of what I wanted a game to actually be was the root cause of my apathy & disappointment, when I took each game at it's merits I found more to like, I looked upon the positives much more - I wasn't blinded to the faults, but there is appreciation to be gained from most games, I haven't found one I 100% hated since that shift in perspective.
Finally a post on this forum that make sense and is not bashing Devs.. I have been a gamer for 30 years, I started with D&D and then move to console and IBM and commodore, and then moved on, I was into ART, and then Cars, I was an Auto mechanic for 17 years, and then got sick, so I decided to go to school for Gamer design to understand more about games, and how to make them, I messed around through the years but nothing really that big until I went to school.
So after going to school, I see both sides to it now before I was like most people upset about this game or that but I played what I enjoyed, and also I was a beta tester Paid one, so after seeing what is all involved I see why the industry is off a bit most people just complain and don't figure out why they just want what they want and thats it like spoiled brat which is annoying.
I will tell you why we do not see new mechanics, and ideas...
1. AAA companys are ran by people who never play games they wanna make money.
2. Publisher, Investors, will only give money to people who they know and what games have made money in the past, AKA WOW and clones. Yes they do, they made billions.
3. Indies have great idea, but who the hell are they and this crazy idea, !! No way will most gamers play this.. So guess what we won't see new games that often
4. Indies lack experince.
5. Indies lack Funds.
6. Indies lack buisness sense. ( This one I have been dealing with, see indies should start small and then make the next MMo, but MMO cost the most, if indies make small scale games they will get funds for the bigger games also investors will trust them more because they have made games, and seen how well they have done.
Gamers today have no patince and how can Devs fix anything if people just complain and not say why or what is wrong, also they can't please everyone.
Gamers who are becoming DEVS, which I find to be important because they are gamers and want they next best game but what I learned is most new devs hate MMO's that is a fact and I ask why when I'm in school and mostly told, because why should I make games for a bunch of selfish people and whiners,
I see there point now and Iphone games are easy to make and easy to make money, even flash games you can make more money and faster, so those are reasons as well.. So people will be like Iphone!! Well guess what these are all facts, and now I see it, will I play Iphone games no not really, I l ike MMo, but I'm actually doing good for myself making smaller scale games.
SO my advise to gamers is to relax and stop with the crying and bashing, because if they don't new devs won't bother to come up with the next new MMO.... They can continue to deal with what they have, not saying all the games are bad because there not but I do want some new mechanics and trust me they are out there but people aren't using them....
i think many of the older gamers understand this concept, yet don't have the patience to see a game past a month or two and at that point if all the bugs are not worked out they leave and move on to the next release. Gamers are at fault for being impatient, but developers are at fault for pushing out unfinished games with nothing new added in terms of innovation... lets face it.. if you want to play sword and scorceror... WoW is THE game. 10+ million say so and they are paying to play. All the other games have niche followings, even the successful Rift and TRION Worlds. The next best subscription game is EVE online which is sandbox... so which do you think investors want a piece of.. 300k or 10 million subs? so perhaps we are all at fault.
Unless the "bugs" actually mean the game doesn't even work for the people (like Vanguard at release, no one could play the game) then I don't think that is right at all that people leave if all the bugs aren't fixed immediately.
People leave because the game isn't very good.
The reason MMO's are bad is because they're not innovative, they have either awful devs or awful producers forcing the devs to be bad.
Money is the main reason MMO's are bad. Catering to the widest market is also the reason (althoug that is entirely based on money, once again).
Indie MMORPG's are actually pretty good, even if not perfect. No one here can say that Darkfall is not a good game for those who want a FFA PvP environment. Just like WoW, even if you hate it, think it's boring, or believe it's flawed-- it's still a good game. The design of WoW is good, smooth, polished. The design of Darkfall is new, fresh, innocative. Yes, Darkfall has some massive flaws for new players, but at release it was actually quite awesome. If it were ever to become Darkfall 2.0 with a server wipe, there would be many players who would want to play (and stay).
Just because Darkfall didn't become the next WoW doesn't mean it's a bad game. Just because a ton of people think it's a bad game, doesn't make it a bad MMO. It is innovative, fresh, different. It has flaws, but if there were 10 more games like it, one of those would be nearly flawless. Eventually you'd get a game that combines WoW's polish with Darkfall's innovative. I'm not talking FFA PvP, I'm talking about DIFFERENT FROM WoW-Clones.
Unfortunately there is only 1 Darkfall for now, and in the next few years no more than 5 more types will pop up. The chances of those also having design flaws, financial problems, or not even making it to release are high. If developers were all like the Darkfall developers-- and just did what they think is FUN, we would eventually start seeing some really, really awesome MMORPG's alongside some bad ones.
We also have to remember that no matter what the game's design, a single massive flaw can really hold it back. Some games are plagued with a lack of balance in PvP-- (and it's entirely possible to find balance, as many gaves have before), some games are plagued with an added feature or design vision that ruins gameplay (Vanguard's world being too big, SWTOR having too many servers, only 1-3 PvP maps in a MMO where most players love PvP, inability to keep up with content, etc. etc.)
There were games that were "flawless" in regard to massive flaws that made the game unplayable. For example, pretend they added Permadeath to WoW. It woudl make WoW's design unplayable. Yet this is very common in MMORPG's-- to have a single problem that is ignored, but one that could be easily fixed or changed. WoW + Permadeath = Hell, because WoW isn't designed to have permadeath. Yet there are developers stupid enough to implement designs that do not belong in the rest of their game's design. If WoW's design was made with permadeath in mind, it wouldn't be a game-ending feature.
Now replace 'permadeath' with whatever the REAL issue is. Like WoW's incredible lack of balance in low tier PvP. Many will cry, "If you're not max level, it doesnt matter." but millions of players participate in low level battlegrounds. I myself, and anyone who loves ALTS and PvP, will quit WoW because of the horrendous flaws in low tier PvP. The rest? They will be a part of the problem, exploiting these flaws for their benefit. (Ex. why you see about 50% of players in low tier PvP as Hunters or Rogues, and absolutely no gimped classes at all until set levels).
When you log onto WARHAMMER PvP as a Shadow Warrior, and people start to laugh at you-- the developers should know something is wrong with balance.
4) Companies will still make shit MMOs. See points 1 and 3.
For every player that is bored of MMOs of which I am one, there are many who will pay for shit, and pay a lot. So why bother making better games? The developers have no reason to. Fuck pride.
Despite the fact that if someone actually bothered to make a decent subscription MMO people would flock to it and it would make a fortune. But hey, their still making money for doing fuck all so why bother.
The people who are really irritating are those who bitch about MMOs but then still sub to shit, or 'go back' to tired old shit games that they fell out of love with years ago. You know who you are.
But then I'd argue their feeding an addiction to an extent, in which case, go wild.
MMO gameplay is no more difficult than any other type of gameplay. The added networking in the game is irrelevant of gameplay, even when it requires FPS twitch combat (like Darkfall).
2) MMOs are addictive.
Any game can be addictive. League of Legends is VERY addictive, but it isn't a MMO in any regard.
3) People will still play shit MMOs.
Sad, but true.
4) Companies will still make shit MMOs. See points 1 and 3.
So so true, and they'll still rage when their MMO with a famous IP doesn't make billions for them immediately. LOL, MMO producers and developers remind me of the movie producers who fund movies like BATTLESHIP or Rock Em Sock Em Robots, er I mean Reel Steel, and since they have a famous IP invest hundreds of millions into a movie that makes them less than a score of a million, roflmao. How can ppl be so blind...
For every player that is bored of MMOs of which I am one, there are many who will pay for shit, and pay a lot. So why bother making better games? The developers have no reason to. Fuck pride.
This is how it is, truth be told! Hallejulah brother!
Despite the fact that if someone actually bothered to make a decent subscription MMO people would flock to it and it would make a fortune. But hey, their still making money for doing fuck all so why bother.
Exactly. So true, so true.
The people who are really irritating are those who bitch about MMOs but then still sub to shit, or 'go back' to tired old shit games that they fell out of love with years ago. You know who you are.
LOL
But then I'd argue their feeding an addiction to an extent, in which case, go wild.
This would be a valid argument if it werent for the fact you're 100% wrong.
I have very high self esteem, am very valuable in the real world, feel valuable, and have a ridiculous amount of free time.
I play video games not to make myself feel more powerful than I actually am, but to have fun because I like video games.
He's wrong because you're the exception to the rule?
Quite a few people do not have a ridiculous amount of free time. Or don't necessarily want to spend that free time just on games.
If there are people who do not fit to what he says, then that means he's wrong to say that is the reason why.
Herp derp ftl.
Use some common sense... what he said is obviously not true and is simply something he came up with after getting an A in his Psych 101 class. It may apply to some people, but the majority are most likely not playing MMORPG's solely to escape from their harsh reality that they have to spend 99% of their time in.
Even if MMORPG's are used to "escape", the REASONS people escape are going to be much more broad than "because they feel powerless" and have low self-esteem.
Some people will escape because it helps them de-stress. Some will do so because it helps keep their mind from other parts of life, such as having too much power over others.
To say that the reason people escape is always because they feel powerless IRL is to assume that everyone feels powerless IRL. Some people have problems BECAUSE they have power. If someone is bipolar 2 and abusive to those they love, with severe depression states, they are most likely escaping because they have too much power (abuse others). All this pretending people always use games as a form of escape.
It is just common sense in psychology (real psychology) that not everything is caused by the exact same feeling (powerlessness) or that EVERYONE who plays, plays to escape real life. Some people may play to escape fictional dreams and actually find some reality. And as I just stated, not everyone plays to escape their "hrash real life".
As you get older you find that you have to spend more and more time in the real world and that's hard for some people to accept. They keep looking for the perfect game where they can abandon their real life in favor of a fantasy world where they can feel needed or more powerful than they actually are in the real world. Unfortunately it is unrealistic to expect to be able to replace your real life with a game life and it can be upsetting when people are faced with this reality.
This would be a valid argument if it werent for the fact you're 100% wrong.
I have very high self esteem, am very valuable in the real world, feel valuable, and have a ridiculous amount of free time.
I play video games not to make myself feel more powerful than I actually am, but to have fun because I like video games.
WHY do I like video games? It's a much more simple than a subconscious pop-psychological need for self validation. They're fun entertainment. If there's ANY truth to what you're saying, it's that I play video games to be a medieval adventurer in a world of magic, because I can't go around killing people or monsters IRL with full plate armor and a bastard sword. The police would probably consider me a mass murderer.
This just in: I also don't watch Game of Thrones because IRL I am not strong enough to wield a sword or smart enough to strategize a clever plot. I don't watch The Walking Dead because I am desperate for the world to end so I can be a zombie hero, because I'm a pizza boy IRL.
My life is very happy, I feel I have tons of self worth and high self esteem. Thus my very existence proves you should go back to your Psych 101 class and ask your teacher why people play video games. (I am only being rude because my degree is in the field of psychology, and I find this post to be very misinformative and horrendously incorrect. It makes REAL psychology look bad).
Honestly, did you really feel it necessary to validate yourself on a video game forum?
Back on topic: When I read or overhear through some interview that another developer is using World of Warcraft as their basis for the structure of their "new" MMORPG, I cringe.
We're seeing the backlash of this, as games like SW:TOR, RIFT, the upcoming Elder Scrolls Online, and numerous lesser known MMORPGs all attempt to follow the 'WoW Money Train', and openly admit it.
Does that make them bad? It depends on how different you expected the experience in your new game to be.
I think it's ludicrous to expect players to invest long periods of time and funds (if it's subscription based) on an identical experience elsewhere. They've most likely already invested hundreds of hours in another game, and now some fledgling game expects them to drop their established character and start all over again, climbing back up through the same experience in a somewhat different setting.
As you get older you find that you have to spend more and more time in the real world and that's hard for some people to accept. They keep looking for the perfect game where they can abandon their real life in favor of a fantasy world where they can feel needed or more powerful than they actually are in the real world. Unfortunately it is unrealistic to expect to be able to replace your real life with a game life and it can be upsetting when people are faced with this reality.
This would be a valid argument if it werent for the fact you're 100% wrong.
Honestly, did you really feel it necessary to validate yourself on a video game forum?
I felt it was necessary to inform others that this type of stereotyping and pop psychology is very misinformative and more often inaccurate than not. To those of us who actually take psychology seriously and know a bit about the subject, we see misinformative and erroneous psuedo-science as harmful to the education and understanding of others.
Of course, you can side with him and blanket every educated professional as someone who is simply low in self esteem, desperate for validation and attention. After all, you're most likely just as educated in psychology as him, correct? Please troll elsewhere, you're actually hurting others by breeding pop psychology ways of thinking. Stereotypes != good.
All I am stating is that "There are a multitude of reasons and explanations for how people understand or preceive their world." as opposed to "Everyone feels powerless IRL so they play games." Why you feel that is bad is beyond me. I question if you aren't him on a different account, lol.
I'll be honest and say that I skipped most of your post. I'll just respond to the title and I'll just stick to SWTOR. It was well designed as a single player game with coop features. Leveling content is never worth a subscription price in my opinion and so it comes down to the multiplayer features justifying a sub.
BW completely dropped the ball by not offering group finding tools on release. They also totally borked PVP on release with all of the animation issues and such. A month after release they broke Ilum and allowed players to gain massive amounts of valor a minute on many servers. The valor system was so messed up that they abandoned it and introduced a new system that provided no incentive to pug battlegrounds.
As a B2P game SWTOR would have been perfectly adequate imo. But they would still have lost a ton of players. SWTOR is not a bad game. It's just not worthy of a WOW priced sub, or any sub for that matter.
There are certain things every themepark MMO should have. Responsive, fun and balanced combat, cross server group finding tools and if you have PVP then some sort of ratings and cross server matchmaking system. After you have those working, then go ahead and spend money on story and voice overs.
As you get older you find that you have to spend more and more time in the real world and that's hard for some people to accept. They keep looking for the perfect game where they can abandon their real life in favor of a fantasy world where they can feel needed or more powerful than they actually are in the real world. Unfortunately it is unrealistic to expect to be able to replace your real life with a game life and it can be upsetting when people are faced with this reality.
This would be a valid argument if it werent for the fact you're 100% wrong.
I have very high self esteem, am very valuable in the real world, feel valuable, and have a ridiculous amount of free time.
I play video games not to make myself feel more powerful than I actually am, but to have fun because I like video games.
WHY do I like video games? It's a much more simple than a subconscious pop-psychological need for self validation. They're fun entertainment. If there's ANY truth to what you're saying, it's that I play video games to be a medieval adventurer in a world of magic, because I can't go around killing people or monsters IRL with full plate armor and a bastard sword. The police would probably consider me a mass murderer.
This just in: I also don't watch Game of Thrones because IRL I am not strong enough to wield a sword or smart enough to strategize a clever plot. I don't watch The Walking Dead because I am desperate for the world to end so I can be a zombie hero, because I'm a pizza boy IRL.
My life is very happy, I feel I have tons of self worth and high self esteem. Thus my very existence proves you should go back to your Psych 101 class and ask your teacher why people play video games. (I am only being rude because my degree is in the field of psychology, and I find this post to be very misinformative and horrendously incorrect. It makes REAL psychology look bad).
Honestly, did you really feel it necessary to validate yourself on a video game forum?
Back on topic: When I read or overhear through some interview that another developer is using World of Warcraft as their basis for the structure of their "new" MMORPG, I cringe.
We're seeing the backlash of this, as games like SW:TOR, RIFT, the upcoming Elder Scrolls Online, and numerous lesser known MMORPGs all attempt to follow the 'WoW Money Train', and openly admit it.
Does that make them bad? It depends on how different you expected the experience in your new game to be.
I think it's ludicrous to expect players to invest long periods of time and funds (if it's subscription based) on an identical experience elsewhere. They've most likely already invested hundreds of hours in another game, and now some fledgling game expects them to drop their established character and start all over again, climbing back up through the same experience in a somewhat different setting.
As I just said on another thread, the failings of swtor and rift is a great thing for MMO players. Because if even swtor couldn't sustain the numbers given the developer and the IP what can?
I think would force publishers to move away from the usual WoW clones. The MMORPG genre is possibly the only gaming genre where most of the game release don't even bother trying to innovate, they just copy WoW and change the lore to suit their needs.
Rift showed that even a great implemented WoW clone is still just a clone.
Swtor showed that even expensive WoW clone with a great IP and voice work gimmick doesn't make a difference.
But in all honesty, i think the main problem with the genre is that they "top" games is they are trying to charge you 15 bucks even though they don't deserve it.
I'll be honest and say that I skipped most of your post. I'll just respond to the title and I'll just stick to SWTOR. It was well designed as a single player game with coop features. Leveling content is never worth a subscription price in my opinion and so it comes down to the multiplayer features justifying a sub.
Back on topic: When I read or overhear through some interview that another developer is using World of Warcraft as their basis for the structure of their "new" MMORPG, I cringe.
We're seeing the backlash of this, as games like SW:TOR, RIFT, the upcoming Elder Scrolls Online, and numerous lesser known MMORPGs all attempt to follow the 'WoW Money Train', and openly admit it.
Does that make them bad? It depends on how different you expected the experience in your new game to be.
I think it's ludicrous to expect players to invest long periods of time and funds (if it's subscription based) on an identical experience elsewhere. They've most likely already invested hundreds of hours in another game, and now some fledgling game expects them to drop their established character and start all over again, climbing back up through the same experience in a somewhat different setting.
As I just said on another thread, the failings of swtor and rift is a great thing for MMO players. Because if even swtor couldn't sustain the numbers given the developer and the IP what can?
I think would force publishers to move away from the usual WoW clones. The MMORPG genre is possibly the only gaming genre where most of the game release don't even bother trying to innovate, they just copy WoW and change the lore to suit their needs.
Rift showed that even a great implemented WoW clone is still just a clone.
Swtor showed that even expensive WoW clone with a great IP and voice work gimmick doesn't make a difference.
But in all honesty, i think the main problem with the genre is that they "top" games is they are trying to charge you 15 bucks even though they don't deserve it.
Yeah, I can understand why some other companies would want to use some "features" that were implemented in WoW, like taking matchmaking to the next level and creating cross-server instances and battlegrounds, but there are other areas of WoW that worked for WoW, and WoW alone.
When a player finds themselves experiencing an in-game deja vu moment because the quest hub mechanics work almost identical, the quest content is practically the same, and the fight mechanics are almost identical, then the overall experience is going to get stale really fast, and if you expect to retain subscriptions with that kind of business mentality, you're just fooling yourself.
As an example, RIFT took the whole "reputation meter" model straight from WoW, along with the limited amount of pathetic "reputation building" time-sink quests that string the subscriber along for sub-par rewards.
Not the areas of familiarity that people really want to see.
Wow may have introduced millions of more people to mmo's ...
but all these new people mature with age in their gaming likes and dislikes, and this maturity often requires another layer of complexity to satisfy them.
thus it will be wow itself that will end up actually driving innovation in these games.
Comments
That was well said, and nicely sums up my opinion.
It's not just me as I still to this day find MMOs (and non MMOs) that I love, we just had an unfortunately long and stale period in MMO development when creativity ground to a halt as everyone scrambled for a piece of WoWs pie - sadly they sidled up to the table with an inferior imitation of WoW as their meal ticket.
It didn't work out well, over all.
There's a handful of great MMOs out there (mostly made prior to WoW imo), and GW2 just proved to me that great games can still be made, unfortunately in the wake of WoW there was an indisputable span of years that produced some god awful attempts at MMOs.
Its not exactly bad MMOs, but like so many others say, the genre is stale. Its the same quest system, same crafting mechanics, same fantasy core, same everything with different shaders and textures and world design. When Tera launched I posted in the Tera forums that the game really wasnt anything new, just a different spin on the same design with a twist on combat, but just a small twist. And how the developers dropped the ball on PvP when their combat system is what it is..well its just a wonder...but I digress....
The genre needs innovation or im back to being a FPS/single player RPG person for good. Im sure that innovation is going to eventually happen, but when it happens is up in the air. Im not paying to kill 10 wolfs again, period. No matter how viciously pretty the wolves are looking. Im not willing to accept rep and dungeon grinds as endgame anymore. Thats why I quit Rift 2 weeks after I hit level cap.
And more and more people are starting to feel this way, apparently.
I think it's both/and, not either/or. That is, MMORPG's as a genre have stagnated AND gamers have become jaded and these form a vicious cycle. Devs have the impossible task of trying to satisfy at least three categories: Solo PvE, PVP, multiplayer pve--all while trying to provide meaningful end game and a crafting system that isn't a complete waste of time. The problem is it becomes a zero sum game. Throw a benefit to pvp, and the carebears howl in protest; beef up a classes' survivability, then people whine that it might as well be a single-player game; beef up multiplayer dungeons and then it's "forced grouping! rawr!" and by trying to please everyone, they end up pleasing no one.
Unfortunately this, all too often, is not the case. Development studios often put a great deal of study and effort into figuring out ways to entice players into treating their games as if they were the player's life.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
The themepark sub-genre has stagnated considerably since 2004.
Not at all surprised that many people are burned out and bored with the genre as it stands (myself included.)
Though there are a few games releasing in the near future that hold the promise of something different, and as such the hype and expectations are high.
The sandbox sub-genre has remained largely unchanged since the dawn of the entire MMORPG genre.
I'd really like to see some innovation and original ideas come forth in the sandbox sub-genre.
As it stands, it's simply too niche and (IMO) the archaic game design of many "new" sandbox games really, really hold the sandbox sub-genre back.
They are just bored of ever mmorpg pretty much copy and paste wow's formula's without the devs ever trying to innovate them at all. Only mmo I am waiting for atm is Phantasy Star Online 2, because even from the videos it does not look anything like wow clone like Gw2, swtor, rift, and pretty much every other release the last 4-6 years ended up being. Players are just finally geting sick of it and starting to show it. GW2 while it looks ok is just wow again just you go to hearts insted of town quest hubs, its the same shit as wow pretty much with no choices on where to go zone wise in your lv range either I bet.
Single player games kinda have the same issues too, its the same shitty games being redone over and over, with the only ones saving gaming being the indie devs since they are the only ones who will take a risk. Space pirates and zombies and terraria are 2 of the funnest games I have played in the last 5-6 years. Starbound which is bascally a Terraria clone will be next on the list, Starbound is bascally Terraria on crack with vast improvments like multiple worlds and such. Here is the website: http://playstarbound.com/
One of the guys who used to work on Terraria now is on the Starbound team. best thing is both games are modable so you can replay them over and over with new mods, I use about 10 diff mods for terraria that add hundreds of new items, monsters and such to the game. No modability is why i think D3 sucks and will suck compared to Torchlight 2. I bought D3 and i regret buying a boxed copy because I cannot get a refund on it, if I got it driect from blizzard I could.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
I thought long and hard about this thread topic as I read through all the pages of replies, and I came to the conclusion that there were 2 MMO's that really entertained me: pre-NGE Starwars Galaxies and EVE. The only 2 games that kept me totally entertained for years, not months.
And why only those two ? Because I could not play those games the way I wanted to play them by playing solo. I needed to form social contacts in both those games to fully enjoy the game. And "fully enjoying the game" (in my case) did not remotely involve running the same dailies or dungeons a thousand times over and over.
I treat "modern" themepark MMO's like single-player games nowadays. Play to level-cap and leave. The journey to cap is usually entertaining and varied, but I seem to get there quicker with each new game I play. I'm not a "rush-to-cap" type player, I like to stop and enjoy the scenery, which usually irritates the hell out of any groupmates (on those rare occasions that I need to group for content... ). But leveling-up keeps getting faster and easier.
You don't have time to play/watch them all anyway.
There are more than enough fun stuff to keep us entertained.
I mean I will defend all sorts of games that I like, but I don't think gamers are the problem just because they dont like something.
You can't please everyone.
No matter what game it is, there will be people that dislike it, and there is nothing wrong with that. If enough people dislike something then that has value to the market.
Take sandbox gamers as an example, if developers don't provide products for them then they should voice their distaste for games. Like I said if enough of them speak out maybe they will get the product they are looking for.
If not, then the market probably isnt capable of supporting that niche.
Sure they might be burned out on a style of game, but that is no reason for them to be silenced and ignored. They are burned out for a reason and use sites like this one to be heard. Perfectly reasonable.
Of course, then there are the trolls...I won't even go there.
Shadow's Hand Guild
Open recruitment for
The Secret World - Dragons
Planetside 2 - Terran Republic
Tera - Dragonfall Server
http://www.shadowshand.com
Hahaha, this.
It's the bad MMO's. Haven't really been a good one since WoW and EVE (and maybe some niche sandbox titles).
This would be a valid argument if it werent for the fact you're 100% wrong.
I have very high self esteem, am very valuable in the real world, feel valuable, and have a ridiculous amount of free time.
I play video games not to make myself feel more powerful than I actually am, but to have fun because I like video games.
WHY do I like video games? It's a much more simple than a subconscious pop-psychological need for self validation. They're fun entertainment. If there's ANY truth to what you're saying, it's that I play video games to be a medieval adventurer in a world of magic, because I can't go around killing people or monsters IRL with full plate armor and a bastard sword. The police would probably consider me a mass murderer.
This just in: I also don't watch Game of Thrones because IRL I am not strong enough to wield a sword or smart enough to strategize a clever plot. I don't watch The Walking Dead because I am desperate for the world to end so I can be a zombie hero, because I'm a pizza boy IRL.
My life is very happy, I feel I have tons of self worth and high self esteem. Thus my very existence proves you should go back to your Psych 101 class and ask your teacher why people play video games. (I am only being rude because my degree is in the field of psychology, and I find this post to be very misinformative and horrendously incorrect. It makes REAL psychology look bad).
The more MMORPG's you play, have played the more prone you are to becoming tired of them
"Familiarity breeds contempt" - something MMO developers of the years after WoW appear to forget for a few years, chasing those dollar signs in their eyes.
I think that when you have become so cynical that everything you see in this genre looks like WoW - but shittier, then you do have to ask yourself the question :
"Is it me, am I just that burned out & jaded that there is no fun to be found by me in this genre anymore?"
If you can't find a single game you like enough to play despite it's faults, then yes it almost certainly is, there is enough differentiation in the genre for all but the most burnt out players in existence.
I have burnt out in the past, carrying around pre-conceived notions of what I wanted a game to actually be was the root cause of my apathy & disappointment, when I took each game at it's merits I found more to like, I looked upon the positives much more - I wasn't blinded to the faults, but there is appreciation to be gained from most games, I haven't found one I 100% hated since that shift in perspective.
Unless the "bugs" actually mean the game doesn't even work for the people (like Vanguard at release, no one could play the game) then I don't think that is right at all that people leave if all the bugs aren't fixed immediately.
People leave because the game isn't very good.
The reason MMO's are bad is because they're not innovative, they have either awful devs or awful producers forcing the devs to be bad.
Money is the main reason MMO's are bad. Catering to the widest market is also the reason (althoug that is entirely based on money, once again).
Indie MMORPG's are actually pretty good, even if not perfect. No one here can say that Darkfall is not a good game for those who want a FFA PvP environment. Just like WoW, even if you hate it, think it's boring, or believe it's flawed-- it's still a good game. The design of WoW is good, smooth, polished. The design of Darkfall is new, fresh, innocative. Yes, Darkfall has some massive flaws for new players, but at release it was actually quite awesome. If it were ever to become Darkfall 2.0 with a server wipe, there would be many players who would want to play (and stay).
Just because Darkfall didn't become the next WoW doesn't mean it's a bad game. Just because a ton of people think it's a bad game, doesn't make it a bad MMO. It is innovative, fresh, different. It has flaws, but if there were 10 more games like it, one of those would be nearly flawless. Eventually you'd get a game that combines WoW's polish with Darkfall's innovative. I'm not talking FFA PvP, I'm talking about DIFFERENT FROM WoW-Clones.
Unfortunately there is only 1 Darkfall for now, and in the next few years no more than 5 more types will pop up. The chances of those also having design flaws, financial problems, or not even making it to release are high. If developers were all like the Darkfall developers-- and just did what they think is FUN, we would eventually start seeing some really, really awesome MMORPG's alongside some bad ones.
We also have to remember that no matter what the game's design, a single massive flaw can really hold it back. Some games are plagued with a lack of balance in PvP-- (and it's entirely possible to find balance, as many gaves have before), some games are plagued with an added feature or design vision that ruins gameplay (Vanguard's world being too big, SWTOR having too many servers, only 1-3 PvP maps in a MMO where most players love PvP, inability to keep up with content, etc. etc.)
There were games that were "flawless" in regard to massive flaws that made the game unplayable. For example, pretend they added Permadeath to WoW. It woudl make WoW's design unplayable. Yet this is very common in MMORPG's-- to have a single problem that is ignored, but one that could be easily fixed or changed. WoW + Permadeath = Hell, because WoW isn't designed to have permadeath. Yet there are developers stupid enough to implement designs that do not belong in the rest of their game's design. If WoW's design was made with permadeath in mind, it wouldn't be a game-ending feature.
Now replace 'permadeath' with whatever the REAL issue is. Like WoW's incredible lack of balance in low tier PvP. Many will cry, "If you're not max level, it doesnt matter." but millions of players participate in low level battlegrounds. I myself, and anyone who loves ALTS and PvP, will quit WoW because of the horrendous flaws in low tier PvP. The rest? They will be a part of the problem, exploiting these flaws for their benefit. (Ex. why you see about 50% of players in low tier PvP as Hunters or Rogues, and absolutely no gimped classes at all until set levels).
When you log onto WARHAMMER PvP as a Shadow Warrior, and people start to laugh at you-- the developers should know something is wrong with balance.
Mostly all mmos have been bad in the past 10 years. Bored with gaming ? Hell no they're just bad.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
1) MMOs are hard to make.
2) MMOs are addictive.
3) People will still play shit MMOs.
4) Companies will still make shit MMOs. See points 1 and 3.
For every player that is bored of MMOs of which I am one, there are many who will pay for shit, and pay a lot. So why bother making better games? The developers have no reason to. Fuck pride.
Despite the fact that if someone actually bothered to make a decent subscription MMO people would flock to it and it would make a fortune. But hey, their still making money for doing fuck all so why bother.
The people who are really irritating are those who bitch about MMOs but then still sub to shit, or 'go back' to tired old shit games that they fell out of love with years ago. You know who you are.
But then I'd argue their feeding an addiction to an extent, in which case, go wild.
He's wrong because you're the exception to the rule?
Quite a few people do not have a ridiculous amount of free time. Or don't necessarily want to spend that free time just on games.
Good post, lol.
If there are people who do not fit to what he says, then that means he's wrong to say that is the reason why.
Herp derp ftl.
Use some common sense... what he said is obviously not true and is simply something he came up with after getting an A in his Psych 101 class. It may apply to some people, but the majority are most likely not playing MMORPG's solely to escape from their harsh reality that they have to spend 99% of their time in.
Even if MMORPG's are used to "escape", the REASONS people escape are going to be much more broad than "because they feel powerless" and have low self-esteem.
Some people will escape because it helps them de-stress. Some will do so because it helps keep their mind from other parts of life, such as having too much power over others.
To say that the reason people escape is always because they feel powerless IRL is to assume that everyone feels powerless IRL. Some people have problems BECAUSE they have power. If someone is bipolar 2 and abusive to those they love, with severe depression states, they are most likely escaping because they have too much power (abuse others). All this pretending people always use games as a form of escape.
It is just common sense in psychology (real psychology) that not everything is caused by the exact same feeling (powerlessness) or that EVERYONE who plays, plays to escape real life. Some people may play to escape fictional dreams and actually find some reality. And as I just stated, not everyone plays to escape their "hrash real life".
Honestly, did you really feel it necessary to validate yourself on a video game forum?
Back on topic: When I read or overhear through some interview that another developer is using World of Warcraft as their basis for the structure of their "new" MMORPG, I cringe.
We're seeing the backlash of this, as games like SW:TOR, RIFT, the upcoming Elder Scrolls Online, and numerous lesser known MMORPGs all attempt to follow the 'WoW Money Train', and openly admit it.
Does that make them bad? It depends on how different you expected the experience in your new game to be.
I think it's ludicrous to expect players to invest long periods of time and funds (if it's subscription based) on an identical experience elsewhere. They've most likely already invested hundreds of hours in another game, and now some fledgling game expects them to drop their established character and start all over again, climbing back up through the same experience in a somewhat different setting.
As they say, Fail troll is fail
I'll be honest and say that I skipped most of your post. I'll just respond to the title and I'll just stick to SWTOR. It was well designed as a single player game with coop features. Leveling content is never worth a subscription price in my opinion and so it comes down to the multiplayer features justifying a sub.
BW completely dropped the ball by not offering group finding tools on release. They also totally borked PVP on release with all of the animation issues and such. A month after release they broke Ilum and allowed players to gain massive amounts of valor a minute on many servers. The valor system was so messed up that they abandoned it and introduced a new system that provided no incentive to pug battlegrounds.
As a B2P game SWTOR would have been perfectly adequate imo. But they would still have lost a ton of players. SWTOR is not a bad game. It's just not worthy of a WOW priced sub, or any sub for that matter.
There are certain things every themepark MMO should have. Responsive, fun and balanced combat, cross server group finding tools and if you have PVP then some sort of ratings and cross server matchmaking system. After you have those working, then go ahead and spend money on story and voice overs.
As I just said on another thread, the failings of swtor and rift is a great thing for MMO players. Because if even swtor couldn't sustain the numbers given the developer and the IP what can?
I think would force publishers to move away from the usual WoW clones. The MMORPG genre is possibly the only gaming genre where most of the game release don't even bother trying to innovate, they just copy WoW and change the lore to suit their needs.
Rift showed that even a great implemented WoW clone is still just a clone.
Swtor showed that even expensive WoW clone with a great IP and voice work gimmick doesn't make a difference.
But in all honesty, i think the main problem with the genre is that they "top" games is they are trying to charge you 15 bucks even though they don't deserve it.
Most MMOs are F2P anyway so the point is moot.
Yeah, I can understand why some other companies would want to use some "features" that were implemented in WoW, like taking matchmaking to the next level and creating cross-server instances and battlegrounds, but there are other areas of WoW that worked for WoW, and WoW alone.
When a player finds themselves experiencing an in-game deja vu moment because the quest hub mechanics work almost identical, the quest content is practically the same, and the fight mechanics are almost identical, then the overall experience is going to get stale really fast, and if you expect to retain subscriptions with that kind of business mentality, you're just fooling yourself.
As an example, RIFT took the whole "reputation meter" model straight from WoW, along with the limited amount of pathetic "reputation building" time-sink quests that string the subscriber along for sub-par rewards.
Not the areas of familiarity that people really want to see.
Wow may have introduced millions of more people to mmo's ...
but all these new people mature with age in their gaming likes and dislikes, and this maturity often requires another layer of complexity to satisfy them.
thus it will be wow itself that will end up actually driving innovation in these games.