Originally posted by Rupard Exactly, like I said, from my past experience I just don't put any faith in a small time company to make a big time game. If you don't have the resources then you can't expect great things, just the same old thing, but probably worse, of course I'm saying all of this negative because I'd like to be surprised, I'm not saying that when it comes out I won't try it, I will give it honest chance but I'm not going to waste my money for the same thing
Ya, Verant made a really awful game that ppl still aren't playing 10 years after it's release or anything.
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
Look I hate to sound like a fan boy because their other games have a great number of flaws but trust me if it's as complicated as their text based games were this will be the most complicated highly commerical mmorpg to hit the markets to date. Nobody's perfect, They obviously didn't buy out UE3 to make the game. The economies in GS4 were heavily tapored towards the top10 sellers, Ardwen dominated everything, same with ciston. That's a huge problem that seems to happen whenever the GMS are too close to the players, everything get's infected by favoritism regardless of how much they strive to be unbiased. But it's still better than anything else out there.
Originally posted by Rupard I disagree, I think it is a copy from GW and City of Heroes, they need to convince me further before I will believe that these guys were able to come up with that unique of an idea, give me a break, although that isn't what is important because we all know even the greatest of all people copied from someone before them to make a great product, of course I'm not giving these guys any credit yet, as we all know by know from their website they are a small time group and probably don't have very talented designers, well maybe talented but unknown, or lack of experience.
These guys are not unknown. They have a very loyal following and years of experience developing games.
I'm just going to jump in here for a bit. It was about 5 years ago while playing DragonRealms that I heard that Simu had just started researching to make a graphical MMORPG. That was easily 2 years ahead of Guild Wars' decision making process. Guild Wars was a 2 year creation game with very little content added into it.
We're looking at a game that's went through 2 years of research and study, and it's now enterring a third year of development. This game is going to have something no MMORPG has that I know of: Constantly run GM run events.
From my DragonRealms experiences I have had plenty of experiences with Simu's line of events and game wide wars, and I know that if they continue that into this game, you're going to be shocked that you enjoyed the repetitive play of the MMORPGs out to date. Recently in DragonRealms there was a large war where the players actually influenced the way the war was handled. We ended up losing a city, but we can't win every battle. There's just some elements that I've seen that just amaze me into coming back over and over. That's something I can't say for WoW or EQ where you're out looking for that greater item to boost your character or make them look cool.
Although I have hung up my hat on Simu at the moment, I really anticipate this game.
Originally posted by HJ-Xadrian Was there anything else in particular that was making you think of Guild Wars?
Speaking for myself, yes.
I want to fall in love with this game. I want to buy it and play it for years. It looks awesome. The one thing that is holding me back is that in Guild Wars you could complete the PvE part of the game in a weekend. I don't buy MMOs for short term play.
Please guesstimate how long it is expected for the average player to reach maximum level and consume all major content. By "content" I do not mean doing the same thing over and over and over hoping for a drop. I mean completling major quests and dungeons.
Is this a game like Everquest or DAoC or AC where you can have years of enjoyment? Or is this a WoW or a GW or a SWG where in a few days, weeks, or months you're done and the high level players are tripping over each other heading for the exit?
I know that you plan to add more content over time. But I am jaded now and believe things like that when I see it. GW was going to have an expansion every 6 months that doubled the size of the game. So far all they have offered is a "music pack" that allows me to pay extra for more songs.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
You don't sound like an "average" player if you completed GW in one weekend. We're still tweaking our experience formula, so I can't answer your question, really. But I'm interested in knowing your thoughts.
One of the greatest difficulties in balancing a game is that average amount of playtime is far far far far less than the amount of time a power-player puts in.
Most games will pace the game for the average player -- but then you have the problem of providing "end game" content for the power-players, and needing some way to support your "casual player" and ensure that they're still having a good time, despite the fact that they're moving at a snail's pace.
Originally posted by SIMU-MELISSA What's a creative solution to this problem?
I believe Simutronics has already addressed this problem in their previous games and this should carry over to HJ.
1) Come up with ways to add (quality) new content fast. Simu has done this by creating unique and powerful tools for GameMasters/WorldBuilders so that they are creating the majority of the content while the programmers/designers are freed up to concentrate on the core aspects of the game.
2) Make a wide range of "goals" available to the players, rather than just a single experience bar that leads to subsequent levels. Simu has done this in DR by making it skill-based. On any given day in DR I can do completely different actions in order to advance my character the way I see fit. This lends itself to varied gameplay rather than the standard camping XP/time or loot/time ratios. We still don't know if HJ will be skill or level based but from what I've heard about things like the "Heros Journal", gameplay should be varied.
3) Encourage player interaction, not by forced grouping, but by adding RP elements to the game as well as other "benefits" from players interacting. In DR, there are so many things players of extremely varied levels of skill can do to benefit each other in the game. Healing is not your standard quick HP+ fix, creating the empath class. Players can actually teach each other skills, leading to improvement on both sides (+ to teaching for the teacher, + to the taught skill for the student). No matter how much PvE elements you have in the game, PwP (Players interacting With Players) will always be the most interesting dynamic in well designed MMORPG's. This takes the strain off of developer made content because players basically create their own content.
Originally posted by Tyveil 3) Encourage player interaction, not by forced grouping, but by adding RP elements to the game as well as other "benefits" from players interacting. In DR, there are so many things players of extremely varied levels of skill can do to benefit each other in the game. Healing is not your standard quick HP+ fix, creating the empath class. Players can actually teach each other skills, leading to improvement on both sides (+ to teaching for the teacher, + to the taught skill for the student). No matter how much PvE elements you have in the game, PwP (Players interacting With Players) will always be the most interesting dynamic in well designed MMORPG's. This takes the strain off of developer made content because players basically create their own content.
When you reached the "end game" it's all about the player interaction. Guilds are a huge part of any long term solution because they encourage player interaction. I've played as a casual player and as a power player in various MMORPGs. Things that keep me as a long term player are the people I interact with and the variability in game play.
One of the things I find a lot of games do badly is the "mid game grind". This is something that can really hurt the casual player. Typically there is a lot of content at the beginning of the game and a lot of content for the end of the game, but for those players who are in the middle, they are typically stuck "grinding it out" trying to get themselves skilled enough or up in level enough to do the end game content. For a casual gamer this can be a real turnoff as they just are "grinding" forever (and by grinding it's not necessary killing the same mob over and over, but doing the same actions over and over with nothing new).
Originally posted by SIMU-MELISSA What's a creative solution to this problem?
There are two objects to the game. One is that, for every class of player, there should be something ahead of them that they are looking forward to doing. The other is that they should have fun and interesting things to do now.
Note that I said nothing about status. Status (levels and high quality items) is the iceberg upon which so many mmorpgs founder. It's a no win scenario if it is the game's cornerstone rather than what happens as you meet the above-listed goals. If you make everything easy you alienate all but the most casual of players. If you make the game insanely hard you alienate all but the most hardcore players. Luckily, if you stay focused on the two objects listed above, you don't have to worry as much about that because it will be the natural byproduct of meeting the two listed goals.
For casual players, meeting the two goals is easy. They consume content slowly, so there is usually quite a bit of content ahead that they have not yet reached. To keep them entertained, you merely have to have interesting things in the game to do. If there aren't interesting things in the game to do, the game has bigger problems.
Recall that I said casual players. I do not include in that group people who log on and expect to be level 70 with epic gear in 20 minutes. Those aren't casual players because they aren't playing. Rather, they merely log on with their hand out. No game decision should ever be based on the needs of this group because it will ruin the mmorpg for everyone else.
Next you have your core gamers - people who play 2-4 hours every few days, and a little more on weekends. This is who you build the game around. Core gamers consume content at a moderate pace. The game progression should be timed to where your first major expansion should be released at the point where this group is reaching max level and/or completing the game's hardest normal dungeon (see below for the difference between a normal dungeon and other types of dungeons). You should be releasing your second major expansion about the time this group completes the first major expansion pack.
Finally you have the hardcore players. There is not much you can do to keep pace with this group. They will tear through your game like Sherman though Georgia. However, some things that you can do to keep them entertained (and still able to distinguish themselves by their game efforts, which is important to them) while the others are catching up are:
(1) have an alternative advancement system, a la EQ 1, where experience gained over the experience cap can be used to increase character attributes (and thus isn't wasted). Make the attainment of these attributes sloooooow.
(2) have some bonus, raid force dungeons that are very, very hard but that drop high quality items. These dungeons should not be necessary to ordinary progression through the game, or else casual and core gamers will someday be required to do them when they get to that stage and they may not like them.
(3) Have repeatable content where you acquire points which can be cashed in for goodies, a la Lost Dungeons of Norrath;
(4) Put in some long, difficult, multi-stage epic quests. In fact, borrowing a page out of a Morrowind sword quest, there should be stages to the quest where an NPC accepts an item and tells you to come back in a month and they will be ready to assign you the next phase;
(5) Have high level hunting zones where mobs drop Diablo style random rare and/or unique loot.
(6) Put a mob in the game that is so insanely hard to kill it is questionable whether it will ever be killed; an example would be The Sleeper in EQ 1. High level raid guilds love to cut their teeth on a challenge like this.
If you structure the game that way, I believe you can keep all three playstyles busy and entertained.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
---There are two objects to the game. One is that, for every class of player, there should be something ahead of them that they are looking forward to doing. The other is that they should have fun and interesting things to do now.
I agree, enjoyable things to do NOW instead of at 50 levels higher really makes a difference.
---Status (levels and high quality items) is the iceberg upon which so many mmorpgs founder.
True, but reputation for achieving a specific goal or doing something special is something I would count as status (Like Icecross, slayer of Dragons)
---Next you have your core gamers - people who play 2-4 hours every few days, and a little more on weekends. This is who you build the game around. Core gamers consume content at a moderate pace. The game progression should be timed to where your first major expansion should be released at the point where this group is reaching max level and/or completing the game's hardest normal dungeon (see below for the difference between a normal dungeon and other types of dungeons).
A little before that, I think. If the game becomes really good it will be a motivation for some people to play more - those who got the time anyways. But these will still be a lot less fanatical than the hardcore guys.
---Finally you have the hardcore players. There is not much you can do to keep pace with this group. They will tear through your game like Sherman though Georgia. However, some things that you can do to keep them entertained (and still able to distinguish themselves by their game efforts, which is important to them) while the others are catching up are: (1) have an alternative advancement system, a la EQ 1, where experience gained over the experience cap can be used to increase character attributes (and thus isn't wasted). Make the attainment of these attributes sloooooow.
Seconded.
---(2) have some bonus, raid force dungeons that are very, very hard but that drop high quality items. These dungeons should not be necessary to ordinary progression through the game, or else casual and core gamers will someday be required to do them when they get to that stage and they may not like them.
Make these bonus thingies optional and of variable difficulty (of course with suitable rewards).
---(4) Put in some long, difficult, multi-stage epic quests. In fact, borrowing a page out of a Morrowind sword quest, there should be stages to the quest where an NPC accepts an item and tells you to come back in a month and they will be ready to assign you the next phase;
I don't know, people might find this unneccesarily time-consuming and a cheap trick to make them play the game for a longer time. Even if they would, it would be like "I can't quit now, only 2 more weeks till I get the ubah-spell". Sure would sound strange to me.
---(6) Put a mob in the game that is so insanely hard to kill it is questionable whether it will ever be killed; an example would be The Sleeper in EQ 1. High level raid guilds love to cut their teeth on a challenge like this.
Yep! WoW has wannabe versions of those monsters, but with enough high level, correctly specced people they breeze trough them like wind. Make them HARD, make them so DEADLY no sane player would ever say the name out loud... and of course make some of them rampage an innocent town now and then to remind people of it's existence
Talking about the monsters where just saying the name makes you whimper...
The only time in an MMO so far I have been remotedly scared or thought "No way do I want to go there, it freaks me out" is in Saga of Ryzom. I can't even remember the names of the mobs anymore, but it was those... scorpion/crab looking things which let out a real high pitch squeel, and whenever you heard you looked around frantically to see where the hell it was. And if it was in range of you, and you didn't realise, *sound of quick footfall* WHACK!! Dead. Omg I just sh@t my pants... It is sooo damn freaky, especially in the dungeon zones, the Roots or whatever. A Ryzom player can correct me on the names etc if they like, but that's not really the point.
The point is that if Sim can get that same aspect into their game in parts, it will make the game sooo much more alive and vibrant. "Let's try to get MobofInstantDeath's treasure. I hear it has an awesome scroll!" "Omg, are you Far King Mad? That place creeps me out BIG time.." etc. To somehow capture that sense of realness. Gripping environments where you find yourself physically trying to look around a corner in your chair. Where 'that' sound is very significant and means it's a specific mob or such, and it's time for you to get the hell away.
There has to be ways to create this immersion, as Ryzom has it in spades.
Just my ramblings..
Hi Mel ya cutey, thanks for your top interviews Keep them coming!
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush. Oh. My. God.
OMGARSH THIS GAERM SI JUST LEIK GULD WARZ THEY R LIEK TOTAKLU SAEM!!11111
U C THERE BOTH WIF TEH SW0RDZ AND MAGICKZ AND H4XING AND LEWTZ0R AND LIEK THEIR R TEH INSATCNES WIF MONSTORS AND GOBLINZES11`!`!!`~``!!``!!!1!
O M GARSH I JUS RELIZAED THERE TEH SAEM AS EVRQEUST 2 CUZ THEIR LIEK PRACICALY TEH SAEM GAME I SAW A MONSTOR TAT WUZ TEH SAEM.
----------------------------- Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
----------------------------- Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
Not far from the truth blade hehe. The Refugees that I teach English too, who have never had a formal lesson in their lives, write better English than the pre-teen, SMS-English-writing youth of a lot of these gaming boards. Soon it'll be passed off as the new shorthand or some crap
... but liek i jus want ths game to cum out liek reel sson coz i am sooooo f***ing board wit all th static, 1 dimes-.. demenshin-... dimenshinal.. MMOzzez tha r on th maket now. Dis industree needz liek sum noo lyfe breethd into it leik reeeeeeel soon coz atm itz just getin boaring... oh un leik pre-teen Inglish FTL!!11!!
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush. Oh. My. God.
Originally posted by Arremus Not far from the truth blade hehe. The Refugees that I teach English too, who have never had a formal lesson in their lives, write better English than the pre-teen, SMS-English-writing youth of a lot of these gaming boards. Soon it'll be passed off as the new shorthand or some crap
You teach English "too" refugees? Maybe that's not such a hot idea...
Agent_X7 AKA J Star [/URL] Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
haha well spotted, too. Is what happens when you type in a rush between rounds of BF2 hehe. I do it all the time. Least I know my 'there' variations, unlike 99% of the boards :P hehe
Teaching English to regufees has very little simularity to teaching English in school anyways. Is more word-to-visual relationships, to help them get about in Australia etc. Good fun stuff.
Someone has to help clean up the mess that the bombs leave behind
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush. Oh. My. God.
Yeah, I should probably re-read my posts before posting, what with all the English-Nazis around, but, meh! Haha. Yes, and get back to work, you have a game to release to save us all from MMOsuicide...!!!
Oh, and back on topic.. To compare Hero's Journey to Guild Wars.. erm. Well. You would obviously have to have read zero information about Hero's Journey to even remotely compare it to the "MMO" that is Guild Wars... They should have just not made GW and put the extra time and effort into Diablo 3 :P
Hero's Journey, here's to hopin', will recreate the benchmarks for MMOs and alleviate the 'grind is a must' factor that haunts all EQ (WoW etc) clones.
But yeah, get back to work Cirakin! :P hehe
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush. Oh. My. God.
Originally posted by Renian "what with all the English-Nazis around, but, meh!" We prefer the term Grammar Nazis. Edit: Quote wasn't working, so I literally added quotes. :P
Actually, we don't. We prefer people just use the English language in something resembling the tiniest bit of mastery a native English-speaker should have learned in elementary school. I can forgive improper punctuation, dangling participles, and all the rest of the English rules that nobody -even a writer- cares about. I can't let it go, however, when someone mangles basic words, since I know that they beat these things in to people in school. Your and you're, to, two, and too - it makes my head split in two and start smoking. Fire shoots from my mouth, and I scream wordlessly, cursing the day you spent staring at little Jenny Beanpole's behind instead of learning the basic words that make up our language.
Ok, so I am a grammar Nazi. Sue me.
Agent_X7 AKA J Star [/URL] Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
Simutronics is a grown man whilst these upstart mmorpg companies are children. They started it all, and they did it right. Simutronics pretty much wrote the book on mmorpgs. Over any other title, this one's gonna get my money.
"Exactly, like I said, from my past experience I just don't put any faith in a small time company to make a big time game."
I would beg to differ Rupard. Simutronics is not "small time." While they employ 40 people on staff, they have hundreds of GMs across the country helping in the design of HJ. Furthermore, Simutronics invented MMORPGs in my opinion, and there will never be a graphics base game that matches the depth and complexity of some of their titles like "Dragonrealms."
If you don't have the resources then you can't expect great things, just the same old thing, but probably worse, of course...
Again, I would beg to differ. When I hear "lack of resources" I am really hearing "lots of creativity." The company I work for, with its 30 employs, competes against the likes of competitors x100 our size. I'm not kidding about this, literally x100 to x1000 our size. Its not about the resources, its about the talent you have employed.
I'm not saying that when it comes out I won't try it, I will give it honest chance but I'm not going to waste my money for the same thing
I can see you have been burned like me on games like "Shadowbane." HJ is different, and I know it. Simutronics has committed their lively hood to this title. When a company that is as established as simutronics in this market goes for the tripple axel... they are going to stick the landing.
Originally posted by Kilendric My first MMO was Dragonrealms and I loved it. It is still the standard to wich I Hold all other MMOs and sofar none of them have really matched it....thanks Simu for runing evey other game out there with your greatness.
And this.... Is EXACTLY how I feel. Every single game that comes out I compare to DR and none of them hold up.
I suppose a good portion of the difference is that you can go into A LOT more detail when using text as opposed to be limited to what you can graphically create. Either way, I'm patiently awaiting HJ and hoping that Simu can get it out in a decent time frame.
Comments
Ya, Verant made a really awful game that ppl still aren't playing 10 years after it's release or anything.
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
Look I hate to sound like a fan boy because their other games have a great number of flaws but trust me if it's as complicated as their text based games were this will be the most complicated highly commerical mmorpg to hit the markets to date. Nobody's perfect, They obviously didn't buy out UE3 to make the game. The economies in GS4 were heavily tapored towards the top10 sellers, Ardwen dominated everything, same with ciston. That's a huge problem that seems to happen whenever the GMS are too close to the players, everything get's infected by favoritism regardless of how much they strive to be unbiased. But it's still better than anything else out there.
These guys are not unknown. They have a very loyal following and years of experience developing games.
Make a difference!
I'm just going to jump in here for a bit. It was about 5 years ago while playing DragonRealms that I heard that Simu had just started researching to make a graphical MMORPG. That was easily 2 years ahead of Guild Wars' decision making process. Guild Wars was a 2 year creation game with very little content added into it.
We're looking at a game that's went through 2 years of research and study, and it's now enterring a third year of development. This game is going to have something no MMORPG has that I know of: Constantly run GM run events.
From my DragonRealms experiences I have had plenty of experiences with Simu's line of events and game wide wars, and I know that if they continue that into this game, you're going to be shocked that you enjoyed the repetitive play of the MMORPGs out to date. Recently in DragonRealms there was a large war where the players actually influenced the way the war was handled. We ended up losing a city, but we can't win every battle. There's just some elements that I've seen that just amaze me into coming back over and over. That's something I can't say for WoW or EQ where you're out looking for that greater item to boost your character or make them look cool.
Although I have hung up my hat on Simu at the moment, I really anticipate this game.
Speaking for myself, yes.
I want to fall in love with this game. I want to buy it and play it for years. It looks awesome. The one thing that is holding me back is that in Guild Wars you could complete the PvE part of the game in a weekend. I don't buy MMOs for short term play.
Please guesstimate how long it is expected for the average player to reach maximum level and consume all major content. By "content" I do not mean doing the same thing over and over and over hoping for a drop. I mean completling major quests and dungeons.
Is this a game like Everquest or DAoC or AC where you can have years of enjoyment? Or is this a WoW or a GW or a SWG where in a few days, weeks, or months you're done and the high level players are tripping over each other heading for the exit?
I know that you plan to add more content over time. But I am jaded now and believe things like that when I see it. GW was going to have an expansion every 6 months that doubled the size of the game. So far all they have offered is a "music pack" that allows me to pay extra for more songs.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
You don't sound like an "average" player if you completed GW in one weekend.
We're still tweaking our experience formula, so I can't answer your question, really. But I'm interested in knowing your thoughts.
One of the greatest difficulties in balancing a game is that average amount of playtime is far far far far less than the amount of time a power-player puts in.
Most games will pace the game for the average player -- but then you have the problem of providing "end game" content for the power-players, and needing some way to support your "casual player" and ensure that they're still having a good time, despite the fact that they're moving at a snail's pace.
What's a creative solution to this problem?
I believe Simutronics has already addressed this problem in their previous games and this should carry over to HJ.
1) Come up with ways to add (quality) new content fast. Simu has done this by creating unique and powerful tools for GameMasters/WorldBuilders so that they are creating the majority of the content while the programmers/designers are freed up to concentrate on the core aspects of the game.
2) Make a wide range of "goals" available to the players, rather than just a single experience bar that leads to subsequent levels. Simu has done this in DR by making it skill-based. On any given day in DR I can do completely different actions in order to advance my character the way I see fit. This lends itself to varied gameplay rather than the standard camping XP/time or loot/time ratios. We still don't know if HJ will be skill or level based but from what I've heard about things like the "Heros Journal", gameplay should be varied.
3) Encourage player interaction, not by forced grouping, but by adding RP elements to the game as well as other "benefits" from players interacting. In DR, there are so many things players of extremely varied levels of skill can do to benefit each other in the game. Healing is not your standard quick HP+ fix, creating the empath class. Players can actually teach each other skills, leading to improvement on both sides (+ to teaching for the teacher, + to the taught skill for the student). No matter how much PvE elements you have in the game, PwP (Players interacting With Players) will always be the most interesting dynamic in well designed MMORPG's. This takes the strain off of developer made content because players basically create their own content.
When you reached the "end game" it's all about the player interaction. Guilds are a huge part of any long term solution because they encourage player interaction. I've played as a casual player and as a power player in various MMORPGs. Things that keep me as a long term player are the people I interact with and the variability in game play.
One of the things I find a lot of games do badly is the "mid game grind". This is something that can really hurt the casual player. Typically there is a lot of content at the beginning of the game and a lot of content for the end of the game, but for those players who are in the middle, they are typically stuck "grinding it out" trying to get themselves skilled enough or up in level enough to do the end game content. For a casual gamer this can be a real turnoff as they just are "grinding" forever (and by grinding it's not necessary killing the same mob over and over, but doing the same actions over and over with nothing new).
There are two objects to the game. One is that, for every class of player, there should be something ahead of them that they are looking forward to doing. The other is that they should have fun and interesting things to do now.
Note that I said nothing about status. Status (levels and high quality items) is the iceberg upon which so many mmorpgs founder. It's a no win scenario if it is the game's cornerstone rather than what happens as you meet the above-listed goals. If you make everything easy you alienate all but the most casual of players. If you make the game insanely hard you alienate all but the most hardcore players. Luckily, if you stay focused on the two objects listed above, you don't have to worry as much about that because it will be the natural byproduct of meeting the two listed goals.
For casual players, meeting the two goals is easy. They consume content slowly, so there is usually quite a bit of content ahead that they have not yet reached. To keep them entertained, you merely have to have interesting things in the game to do. If there aren't interesting things in the game to do, the game has bigger problems.
Recall that I said casual players. I do not include in that group people who log on and expect to be level 70 with epic gear in 20 minutes. Those aren't casual players because they aren't playing. Rather, they merely log on with their hand out. No game decision should ever be based on the needs of this group because it will ruin the mmorpg for everyone else.
Next you have your core gamers - people who play 2-4 hours every few days, and a little more on weekends. This is who you build the game around. Core gamers consume content at a moderate pace. The game progression should be timed to where your first major expansion should be released at the point where this group is reaching max level and/or completing the game's hardest normal dungeon (see below for the difference between a normal dungeon and other types of dungeons). You should be releasing your second major expansion about the time this group completes the first major expansion pack.
Finally you have the hardcore players. There is not much you can do to keep pace with this group. They will tear through your game like Sherman though Georgia. However, some things that you can do to keep them entertained (and still able to distinguish themselves by their game efforts, which is important to them) while the others are catching up are:
(1) have an alternative advancement system, a la EQ 1, where experience gained over the experience cap can be used to increase character attributes (and thus isn't wasted). Make the attainment of these attributes sloooooow.
(2) have some bonus, raid force dungeons that are very, very hard but that drop high quality items. These dungeons should not be necessary to ordinary progression through the game, or else casual and core gamers will someday be required to do them when they get to that stage and they may not like them.
(3) Have repeatable content where you acquire points which can be cashed in for goodies, a la Lost Dungeons of Norrath;
(4) Put in some long, difficult, multi-stage epic quests. In fact, borrowing a page out of a Morrowind sword quest, there should be stages to the quest where an NPC accepts an item and tells you to come back in a month and they will be ready to assign you the next phase;
(5) Have high level hunting zones where mobs drop Diablo style random rare and/or unique loot.
(6) Put a mob in the game that is so insanely hard to kill it is questionable whether it will ever be killed; an example would be The Sleeper in EQ 1. High level raid guilds love to cut their teeth on a challenge like this.
If you structure the game that way, I believe you can keep all three playstyles busy and entertained.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
---There are two objects to the game. One is that, for every class of player, there should be something ahead of them that they are looking forward to doing. The other is that they should have fun and interesting things to do now.
I agree, enjoyable things to do NOW instead of at 50 levels higher really makes a difference.
---Status (levels and high quality items) is the iceberg upon which so many mmorpgs founder.
True, but reputation for achieving a specific goal or doing something special is something I would count as status (Like Icecross, slayer of Dragons)
---Next you have your core gamers - people who play 2-4 hours every few days, and a little more on weekends. This is who you build the game around. Core gamers consume content at a moderate pace. The game progression should be timed to where your first major expansion should be released at the point where this group is reaching max level and/or completing the game's hardest normal dungeon (see below for the difference between a normal dungeon and other types of dungeons).
A little before that, I think. If the game becomes really good it will be a motivation for some people to play more - those who got the time anyways. But these will still be a lot less fanatical than the hardcore guys.
---Finally you have the hardcore players. There is not much you can do to keep pace with this group. They will tear through your game like Sherman though Georgia. However, some things that you can do to keep them entertained (and still able to distinguish themselves by their game efforts, which is important to them) while the others are catching up are:
(1) have an alternative advancement system, a la EQ 1, where experience gained over the experience cap can be used to increase character attributes (and thus isn't wasted). Make the attainment of these attributes sloooooow.
Seconded.
---(2) have some bonus, raid force dungeons that are very, very hard but that drop high quality items. These dungeons should not be necessary to ordinary progression through the game, or else casual and core gamers will someday be required to do them when they get to that stage and they may not like them.
Make these bonus thingies optional and of variable difficulty (of course with suitable rewards).
---(4) Put in some long, difficult, multi-stage epic quests. In fact, borrowing a page out of a Morrowind sword quest, there should be stages to the quest where an NPC accepts an item and tells you to come back in a month and they will be ready to assign you the next phase;
I don't know, people might find this unneccesarily time-consuming and a cheap trick to make them play the game for a longer time. Even if they would, it would be like "I can't quit now, only 2 more weeks till I get the ubah-spell". Sure would sound strange to me.
---(6) Put a mob in the game that is so insanely hard to kill it is questionable whether it will ever be killed; an example would be The Sleeper in EQ 1. High level raid guilds love to cut their teeth on a challenge like this.
Yep! WoW has wannabe versions of those monsters, but with enough high level, correctly specced people they breeze trough them like wind. Make them HARD, make them so DEADLY no sane player would ever say the name out loud... and of course make some of them rampage an innocent town now and then to remind people of it's existence
Talking about the monsters where just saying the name makes you whimper...
Keep them coming!
The only time in an MMO so far I have been remotedly scared or thought "No way do I want to go there, it freaks me out" is in Saga of Ryzom.
I can't even remember the names of the mobs anymore, but it was those... scorpion/crab looking things which let out a real high pitch squeel, and whenever you heard you looked around frantically to see where the hell it was.
And if it was in range of you, and you didn't realise, *sound of quick footfall* WHACK!! Dead. Omg I just sh@t my pants... It is sooo damn freaky, especially in the dungeon zones, the Roots or whatever.
A Ryzom player can correct me on the names etc if they like, but that's not really the point.
The point is that if Sim can get that same aspect into their game in parts, it will make the game sooo much more alive and vibrant.
"Let's try to get MobofInstantDeath's treasure. I hear it has an awesome scroll!"
"Omg, are you Far King Mad? That place creeps me out BIG time.."
etc.
To somehow capture that sense of realness. Gripping environments where you find yourself physically trying to look around a corner in your chair.
Where 'that' sound is very significant and means it's a specific mob or such, and it's time for you to get the hell away.
There has to be ways to create this immersion, as Ryzom has it in spades.
Just my ramblings..
Hi Mel ya cutey, thanks for your top interviews
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush.
Oh. My. God.
OMGARSH THIS GAERM SI JUST LEIK GULD WARZ THEY R LIEK TOTAKLU SAEM!!11111
U C THERE BOTH WIF TEH SW0RDZ AND MAGICKZ AND H4XING AND LEWTZ0R AND LIEK THEIR R TEH INSATCNES WIF MONSTORS AND GOBLINZES11`!`!!`~``!!``!!!1!
O M GARSH I JUS RELIZAED THERE TEH SAEM AS EVRQEUST 2 CUZ THEIR LIEK PRACICALY TEH SAEM GAME I SAW A MONSTOR TAT WUZ TEH SAEM.
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Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
Eloquence, thy name is MisfitZ.
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Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
MisfitZ, that post cracked me up
You're frighteningly good at emulating preteen internet grammar
The Refugees that I teach English too, who have never had a formal lesson in their lives, write better English than the pre-teen, SMS-English-writing youth of a lot of these gaming boards.
Soon it'll be passed off as the new shorthand or some crap
... but liek i jus want ths game to cum out liek reel sson coz i am sooooo f***ing board wit all th static, 1 dimes-.. demenshin-... dimenshinal.. MMOzzez tha r on th maket now. Dis industree needz liek sum noo lyfe breethd into it leik reeeeeeel soon coz atm itz just getin boaring...
oh un leik pre-teen Inglish FTL!!11!!
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush.
Oh. My. God.
Agent_X7 AKA J Star
[/URL]
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
Is what happens when you type in a rush between rounds of BF2 hehe. I do it all the time. Least I know my 'there' variations, unlike 99% of the boards :P hehe
Teaching English to regufees has very little simularity to teaching English in school anyways. Is more word-to-visual relationships, to help them get about in Australia etc. Good fun stuff.
Someone has to help clean up the mess that the bombs leave behind
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush.
Oh. My. God.
Sorry, Arremus .. I couldn't pass that up.
I should be coding something,
Cirakin
Yes, and get back to work, you have a game to release to save us all from MMOsuicide...!!!
Oh, and back on topic..
To compare Hero's Journey to Guild Wars.. erm. Well. You would obviously have to have read zero information about Hero's Journey to even remotely compare it to the "MMO" that is Guild Wars...
They should have just not made GW and put the extra time and effort into Diablo 3 :P
Hero's Journey, here's to hopin', will recreate the benchmarks for MMOs and alleviate the 'grind is a must' factor that haunts all EQ (WoW etc) clones.
But yeah, get back to work Cirakin! :P hehe
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush.
Oh. My. God.
"what with all the English-Nazis around, but, meh!"
We prefer the term Grammar Nazis.
Edit: Quote wasn't working, so I literally added quotes. :P
Actually, we don't. We prefer people just use the English language in something resembling the tiniest bit of mastery a native English-speaker should have learned in elementary school. I can forgive improper punctuation, dangling participles, and all the rest of the English rules that nobody -even a writer- cares about. I can't let it go, however, when someone mangles basic words, since I know that they beat these things in to people in school. Your and you're, to, two, and too - it makes my head split in two and start smoking. Fire shoots from my mouth, and I scream wordlessly, cursing the day you spent staring at little Jenny Beanpole's behind instead of learning the basic words that make up our language.
Ok, so I am a grammar Nazi. Sue me.
Agent_X7 AKA J Star
[/URL]
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
All that venom and negativity over a simple typo hehe.
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush.
Oh. My. God.
"Exactly, like I said, from my past experience I just don't put any faith in a small time company to make a big time game."
I would beg to differ Rupard. Simutronics is not "small time." While they employ 40 people on staff, they have hundreds of GMs across the country helping in the design of HJ. Furthermore, Simutronics invented MMORPGs in my opinion, and there will never be a graphics base game that matches the depth and complexity of some of their titles like "Dragonrealms."
If you don't have the resources then you can't expect great things, just the same old thing, but probably worse, of course...
Again, I would beg to differ. When I hear "lack of resources" I am really hearing "lots of creativity." The company I work for, with its 30 employs, competes against the likes of competitors x100 our size. I'm not kidding about this, literally x100 to x1000 our size. Its not about the resources, its about the talent you have employed.
I'm not saying that when it comes out I won't try it, I will give it honest chance but I'm not going to waste my money for the same thing
I can see you have been burned like me on games like "Shadowbane." HJ is different, and I know it. Simutronics has committed their lively hood to this title. When a company that is as established as simutronics in this market goes for the tripple axel... they are going to stick the landing.
Visit the Unofficial Hero's Journey FAQ http://www.kmtdesigns.com/hjfaq
And this.... Is EXACTLY how I feel. Every single game that comes out I compare to DR and none of them hold up.
I suppose a good portion of the difference is that you can go into A LOT more detail when using text as opposed to be limited to what you can graphically create. Either way, I'm patiently awaiting HJ and hoping that Simu can get it out in a decent time frame.