I disagree with the OP. I think we veteran MMORPG's were very vocal and very pro-active. When SOE launched the NGE on us and then refused to listen to us, it was the player base that left the game in huge numbers. It became a shell of a game. SWG never recovered from it. When Turbine launched AC2 and didn't give us the "miracle" patch that was promised in beta, it was the players that stood their ground. We started a player based campaign that insured that AC2 would never succeed. It didn't and no longer exist. We were very vocal and very active on gaming websites and we didn't hold our tongues back then either. Unlike today, we have to be very careful what we say or we can get banned. In the old days they made forum boards specifically for players to post rants. You do not see that happening these days.
I think the older players were a lot less forgiving than the newer players - ones that started gaming from about the release of WoW and after. Bitter vets have always been bitter. Hehehe...
Actually I would say some of you guys are a piece of work....and not in a positive light.
I was playing EQ long before SWG even launched. When things didnt work out in SWG, some of you didnt keep the discontent to that game. Instead it was all of Sony to pay cause your game didnt pan out.....including those of us playing EQ.
I have never seen such a collection of childish individuals. Which is sad, cause the bad folks painted the whole as some type of mentally challenged gamers. The crowning acheivement was when a few even went so far as to gloat after Freemans passing.
As bad a game as SWg was, it spawned a segment of gamers which is even worse.
Was wondering when I will learn source of your deep rooted hate for sandboxes and sandboxers.
Seem I finally did. Some guys trolled and flamed SOE back in the day which you believe (rightly or not) had huge effect on your beloved EQ.
Damn man and you're throwing sentences about spawning bad segment of gamers?
Look in the mirror.
Yeah look in the mirror.
The score is 2 games I enjoyed being disrupted by insane behavior by these folks. These are the same idiots that used to brag about hiding boxes in stores, and in some instances outright destroying them. It doesnt stop there though....you are ADD/carebear/whatever derogatory insult if you dont like "our" gamestyle. How long have you been on this site?
Sorry. I dont agree with your assessment. I dont disrupt their live game forums, and after yrs of the BS, it is simply calling a spade a spade. The minute I show up in the EVE forums campaigning cause it doesnt have something I like, or spamming the AA/Repop forums for not planning to include the things I want, then feel free to call me out.
Like I have said many times....I have no problem with constructive criticism. The behavior from these individuals is nothing short of disruptive at best, and flat out trolling at worst.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I'm not really sure if its the older gamers we should give the credit to or the older MMOs......
I think its a little of Both, The Older MMO's bred...mostly better mannered gamers....mostly. And Better mannered gamers were the only ones who could handle having to work hard for everything they got. Those that couldnt, left, and never looked back.
You remind me of old people nowadays saying that teenagers are lazy useless and spoiled, and that in their time things where different. But yeah, I do agree
The majority are. If there was an iPhone app to wipe your ass - they'd use it. The make-up of the world has changed dramatically, and progress/change is a good thing, but human beings are slowly evolving into soft, impatient tech-junkies who demand instant gratification and a free ride in all aspects of their lives. I've played WoW since 2004 and there's definitely been a notable difference in playerbase over that period. Having said this and to be fair, there are still a handful of players (of all ages) who know how to play MMORPGs. There's absolutely no reason why rudeness or impatience should be 'the way of the future' other than the fact that human beings may very well be devolving into troglodytes.
The score is 2 games I enjoyed being disrupted by insane behavior by these folks. These are the same idiots that used to brag about hiding boxes in stores, and in some instances outright destroying them. It doesnt stop there though....you are ADD/carebear/whatever derogatory insult if you dont like "our" gamestyle. How long have you been on this site?
Sorry. I dont agree with your assessment. I dont disrupt their live game forums, and after yrs of the BS, it is simply calling a spade a spade. The minute I show up in the EVE forums campaigning cause it doesnt have something I like, or spamming the AA/Repop forums for not planning to include the things I want, then feel free to call me out.
Like I have said many times....I have no problem with constructive criticism. The behavior from these individuals is nothing short of disruptive at best, and flat out trolling at worst.
You keep pointing your finger at these random people who have disrupted your game's forum in some way/shape/form. I don't know who they are or what they did, but every game I have ever enjoyed has been bashed or hated on by someone, you just have to move past it at some point. It's your perogative to stay pissed off at random faceless people if you want, but honestly I don't see how it will solve all that much. Sorry.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
In the mid 90s when the first MMOs came out cellphones were only used by rich jerks, now everyone including me have one and people are way less patient now than back then. Everything needs to be done right now and people are use to be able to get in touch with anyone ASAP.
I think it is also the games fault, working together was a lot more important in games like m59, UO, AC and EQ. Now many players doesn´t even talk to eachother and the game is all about you promoting even more selfish behavior.
Blaming the new generation have been popular since Platons time, I don´t think that ever was true.
Eh could be. There's probably a lot of factors. I think it has to do with the games as well as society today.
The games are built to be competitive. Parallel, society has gotten more competitive and hostile. Jobs are hard to get, money is tight people are seeing others more and more as a threat due to the news constantly talking about people eating other peoples faces, rapes, murders, all that.
So it comes into our games. Its a fairly anti social society we live in and there are many factors. A great many. But that will flood over into gaming. If you play X Box Live its generally people yelling and cussing each other out. So even when people today do communicate, especially online, there is an amazing hostility going on there.
I've often said that a game's community is an important factor to its potential longetivity. Therefore if the majority of said community in a respecitve game is derisive, childish, immature, or otherwise insulting, who would want to stick around?
I don't know if that is anymore true today than it was in times past, but I'm think I'm justified in saying I feel as though I've had more bad experiences in recent times, rather that in the past. It seems as though alot of gamers these days just want to watch things burn.
I do think this has something to do with the loot/gear grind philosophy. Everyone wants to be on top of the ladder, and that creates alot of competition. It seemed like in times past, it took groups of players to accomplish worthwhile and meaningful things in game, and they were much more revered for those accomplishments because they took more than two seconds to complete.
To each their own I suppose, but I do yearn for those older days.
I think it is also the games fault, working together was a lot more important in games like m59, UO, AC and EQ. Now many players doesn´t even talk to eachother and the game is all about you promoting even more selfish behavior.
UO and AC1 had fantastic communities and grouping was definitely not forced in any way in those games. The "forced grouping breeds better community" theory is and has always been wrong.
I actually think it's the forced grouping / gear grind based "end games" which breed bad communities. Even if you complete a dungeon with others, it's all about who is going to win the loot at the end, you actually fight against your own team there. In AC1 for instance, there was no such thing, everybody doing a quest, even if it involved a party, got rewarded, not to mention the best gear of the game was available through soloing and not forced grouping.
I see one game going back to that design, GW2. You do something with others, everybody who participated gets rewarded. That's how the cooperative part of MMORPGs should be done to breed a nice community. How can a community be nice if you have to stomp players of your own side's faces into the mud in order for you to progress?
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
The continous focus on PvP as cheap filler content has changed the culture in these games over the years into something pretty vile. The game model is one that encourages friction, antagonism, and hostility, so it's no suprise that this has infected the gaming culture.
Add this solo non dependent play and the modern MMO culture should not come as a shock to anyone.
Ofc, hitting the mainstream and becoming the fad of the week, where people that didn't even like MMOs were playing them because it was the hip thing to do for a little bit, didn't help either.
The score is 2 games I enjoyed being disrupted by insane behavior by these folks. These are the same idiots that used to brag about hiding boxes in stores, and in some instances outright destroying them. It doesnt stop there though....you are ADD/carebear/whatever derogatory insult if you dont like "our" gamestyle. How long have you been on this site?
Sorry. I dont agree with your assessment. I dont disrupt their live game forums, and after yrs of the BS, it is simply calling a spade a spade. The minute I show up in the EVE forums campaigning cause it doesnt have something I like, or spamming the AA/Repop forums for not planning to include the things I want, then feel free to call me out.
Like I have said many times....I have no problem with constructive criticism. The behavior from these individuals is nothing short of disruptive at best, and flat out trolling at worst.
You keep pointing your finger at these random people who have disrupted your game's forum in some way/shape/form. I don't know who they are or what they did, but every game I have ever enjoyed has been bashed or hated on by someone, you just have to move past it at some point. It's your perogative to stay pissed off at random faceless people if you want, but honestly I don't see how it will solve all that much. Sorry.
Like I said, it doesnt stop at the games themselves....the stereotypes thrown go right along with it. It is usually a daily thing. I have been posting here 5 yrs, and it actually used to be worse around here for themepark/PVE gamers.
As far as some "mystery shopper", when you are around long enough on these forums, it becomes painfully obvious who is calling folks ADD/spoiled/PB Cruncher, blaming others cause their type of games wont be made, or consistently spamming certain game forums. So fault me if you want for reminding these folks where they sit on the dev ladder, but dont discount the issue at hand.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Originally posted by Isasis So, I have been playing MMOs since 1999. My first MMO was Asheron's Call, and then moved to SWG after that (until NGE). I then played various MMOs...consisting of: EVE Online, Darkfall, DAOC, Ultima Online (a favorite of mine) and Everquest. As you can see, I have a lot of experience with social-based MMOs. What all these MMOs have in common is that people were (and still are to a point) a very social atmosphere. In Asheron's Call, groups happened all the time and you met people randomly. You didn't have to hit a looking for group button or spam chat, it just happened naturally. In Ultima Online, PKers gathered together to fight non-PKers and whole wars broke out. EVE Online is the greatest example of a more recent MMO, where it is heavily based on being social. Wars break out, chat flies by, people are everywhere. EVE Online also requires a lot of patience, something modern MMOers just do not have. Even the EVE tutorial requires much patience, and sadly, this new generation of gamers, can't even make it past that to a great game. Take MMOs from WoW and onward. People don't want to group or socialize. There is even a button to auto join a group, and 95% of the time, no one even chats or only says a sentence or two if you are lucky. And if someone makes one mistake, they don't have the patience to help them or keep going...they yell "NOOOOOB" and autoquit the group. What happened to MMOers? What happened to the patience and the social aspect of MMOs? One experience I had in WoW. A newbie to dead mines (an instanced dungeon in Westfall, Alliance territory) was tanking for the group. He wasn't bad, but not great either. However, he did not know what "pulling" was and asked in chat. One person in the group said "wtf noob, god this group sucks"...and that was the only two things (the first being the question) said the entire group and the guy "rage" quit the party. Two others followed and the group died. Obviously, this is due to the themepark mentality, even the same as real themeparks. I call it the the themepark mentality.The company wants a quick dollar and makes an easy to make themepark game (sandboxes take actual skill to make, especially a good one), that is more singleplayer than multiplayer. Notice how all sandboxes have a heavy social influence to them and require a lot of patience? Themepark MMOs are contradictory...they aren't for people who like to group or socialize, they are for people who like singleplayer games and a chat room, with maybe a group or two a week at end game.I obviously greatly dislike themeparks as you can tell, and I go in knowing just that. But I play them so I have prove of my claims. Maybe even hope a themepark game comes out with a social atmosphere, but it never does. I am much more of a sandbox fan, which are TRUE MMOs and not singleplayer games with a monthly fee.
Personally, I disagree with your theory. Just because you consider yourself to be a more patient, social player, it does not qualify you to analyse a single themepark game and create an entire hypothesis based on your one negative experience.
Such an approach is entirely contradictory to the definition of patience, and if I'm totally honest your article title strikes me as quite ageist. I understand that you are a sandbox fan - I think you subtly implied that somewhere in this article - but if anything this is guaranteed to give you a negative outlook on any "themepark" game you dip your pinky toe in to. You need to have a broader outlook if you are going to try and criticise an aspect of gaming - let alone its ENTIRE AUDIENCE.
Let me be frank: there's a single reason sandbox MMOs are not produced widely anymore. That same reason links with the absence of "real MMOers", and in turn sums up the entire reason that your theory is completely un-realistic.
There is no time for a niche game in the modern world.
It's argued often, and sometimes very shoddily, but the fact is that that there is no time or money in sandbox games today. Hear me out before you smite me down, okay? But here's MY view on the situation:
1. Sandbox games require an amount of time, money and effort that companies simply cannot afford in the 21st century. In order to create your average modern MMO, as was highlighted in a dev perspective on this very site, you need state-of-the-art technology, skilled developers and millions of dollars. Those are the basic givens that are needed to pump out a title. And it instantly excludes most of the indie studios on this planet.
Sure, Kickstarter and similar programs can provide quick, easy financial support. But I don't want to get into the negatives of Kickstarter now - as it is I could go on for a millenium on the hidden complexity, the broken promises, the games you DON'T see failing to make the cut and dying off. But generally, modern MMOs are produced solely in the AAA, big budget bellies of billionaire gaming corporations.
All companies run on two things - money and time. Two currencies which, regardless of how efficiently they are spent, have the permanent effect of slowly disappearing when operating multi-million $ investments. Time is the big one here: do you have any idea how long it takes to create a structured, linear, themepark MMO these days, let alone one which is explicitly designed to be as rife with free-choice as possible?
A heck of a long time. Half a decade at the very least.
Time for the engine they started with to become outmoded.
Time for the money to run out.
Time for them to realise their core concepts suck.
Time for their other projects to reach critical mass, forcing them to rush or start pulling the plugs on some of their games. That's when priorities start coming up, that's when efficiency becomes key. And sandbox games ARE NOT EFFICIENT. They are virtually impossible to create in a climate where gamers want their quick fix, because they too have no time to spare. The cost is not worth it for either party.
Let me ask you: when, these days, if you are indeed above legal age, do you ever have time for games? Work, education, travel, cooking, cleaning, EVERYTHING: it is impossible to find the hours and hours of dedicated gameplay that would need to be invested in a sandbox worth its salt. Gaming audiences have not grown turned into younger, impatient sociopaths as you would suggest.
The average age of a gamer is over 40, for god's sake. At least in western countries.
Your take on the disappearance of "true, social, nice, kind and amazingly perfectly brilliant" online gamers, is that themepark MMOs have corrupted us and turned us into bitchy little punks who don't know what real gaming is. I disagree.
The gamers have not changed. The world has, brother. Time is running out. The money runs out too fast. The EXPECTATIONS that the consensus has generated has led to the running of a good quality MMO becoming outrageously expensive. The creation of good MMOs themselves has become a niche art.
Don't blame younger, more "impatient" gamers because we weren't around when the hours would drag away without any notable achievement. Blame the workplace. Blame the social expectation to have children. Blame anything, so long as it doesn't point the finger at the people who are just trying to squeeze in their favourite hobby amidst a life that can be literally crumbling around them every day.
Please.
I'm really sick of the whole "There's a massive fanbase for X", or "Y would be a WoW-killer if it just had a chance".
There is no massive conspiracy waiting in the MMO playerbase.
There are no "sleeper-agent fans" waiting to convert once the X or Y is unleashed on the world.
Alders quote, "Are you kidding? We were still assholes, it's just that game mechanics forced us to cooperate. I saw the transformation as soon as the ability to acquire gear became easier."
This is actually a good point, you do need a game to force you to cooperate or the community becomes a very poor one. Look at real life, what's stopping people from walking into a store and just taking what they want? Or attacking someone just for the fun of it? Consequences. We have a lot of social guidelines and protections in place, police and law enforcement being the main.
In a game like EverQuest people needed each other to progress, people who were idiots were shunned and given a bad name. The community policed itself. The more a game moves away from codependence, the less social it becomes and the more unruly the players can be.
To create a good community there need to be rules and consequences, without them people revert to baser instincts.
So, I have been playing MMOs since 1999. My first MMO was Asheron's Call, and then moved to SWG after that (until NGE). I then played various MMOs...consisting of: EVE Online, Darkfall, DAOC, Ultima Online (a favorite of mine) and Everquest. As you can see, I have a lot of experience with social-based MMOs.
What all these MMOs have in common is that people were (and still are to a point) a very social atmosphere. In Asheron's Call, groups happened all the time and you met people randomly. You didn't have to hit a looking for group button or spam chat, it just happened naturally. In Ultima Online, PKers gathered together to fight non-PKers and whole wars broke out. EVE Online is the greatest example of a more recent MMO, where it is heavily based on being social. Wars break out, chat flies by, people are everywhere. EVE Online also requires a lot of patience, something modern MMOers just do not have. Even the EVE tutorial requires much patience, and sadly, this new generation of gamers, can't even make it past that to a great game.
Take MMOs from WoW and onward. People don't want to group or socialize. There is even a button to auto join a group, and 95% of the time, no one even chats or only says a sentence or two if you are lucky. And if someone makes one mistake, they don't have the patience to help them or keep going...they yell "NOOOOOB" and autoquit the group. What happened to MMOers? What happened to the patience and the social aspect of MMOs?
One experience I had in WoW. A newbie to dead mines (an instanced dungeon in Westfall, Alliance territory) was tanking for the group. He wasn't bad, but not great either. However, he did not know what "pulling" was and asked in chat. One person in the group said "wtf noob, god this group sucks"...and that was the only two things (the first being the question) said the entire group and the guy "rage" quit the party. Two others followed and the group died.
Obviously, this is due to the themepark mentality, even the same as real themeparks. I call it the the themepark mentality.
The company wants a quick dollar and makes an easy to make themepark game (sandboxes take actual skill to make, especially a good one), that is more singleplayer than multiplayer. Notice how all sandboxes have a heavy social influence to them and require a lot of patience? Themepark MMOs are contradictory...they aren't for people who like to group or socialize, they are for people who like singleplayer games and a chat room, with maybe a group or two a week at end game.
I obviously greatly dislike themeparks as you can tell, and I go in knowing just that. But I play them so I have prove of my claims. Maybe even hope a themepark game comes out with a social atmosphere, but it never does. I am much more of a sandbox fan, which are TRUE MMOs and not singleplayer games with a monthly fee.
It's much much simpler than that.
Back then mmorpg were things for few hardcore nerds that had the time and the patience to get invested in the game.
Right now 99% of the mmorpg population is made from your everyday gamer... from housewife to the 12 years old kid.
The company wants a quick dollar and makes an easy to make themepark game (sandboxes take actual skill to make, especially a good one), that is more singleplayer than multiplayer.
I know, right!?
Themeparks are obviously much cheaper than Sandboxes, and very easy to make. I remember this Themepark game that came out late last year, it was barely twice as expensive as any game ever made (not counting scrapping and restarting). Plus, it only took them like 6 years to make. And get this, their plan is to hang out at a small enough sub rate that it will take about 5 or 6 years to become profitable.
Talk about a quick buck!! Might as well be farmville!!
Plus everyone knows that making content takes WAAAAY less time than not making it does.
I think it is also the games fault, working together was a lot more important in games like m59, UO, AC and EQ. Now many players doesn´t even talk to eachother and the game is all about you promoting even more selfish behavior.
Blaming the new generation have been popular since Platons time, I don´t think that ever was true.
I agree, it's totally the games fault. They cater to solo and selfish play so much that people dont even know how to work together anymore.
Im also playing for more then decate mmo's and ive met my share of douchebags back then also same behavior in AC as they do now only maybe alot less then in '99.
But i realy don't care anymore i still if i can help people i still have my patience and i won't change and even sometimes i meet people same attitude or social skills so its not all lost hehe.
GW2 at least alot of douchbagging is not posible anymore so im looking forward to silencio game experience in that game but still players around me helping or revive me with not one word:)
CPU:Intel Core i7-3770K 4GHz GPU:ASUS HD 7970 DirectCU II TOP MB:ASUS P8Z77-V DELUXE Case:Cooler Master HAF X RAM:Corsair 16GB 1600 PSU:Corsair gold 850 HD:SSD OCZ 256 GB vertex4
Over the course of the last fifteen years, my observation that any given attempt to segregate gamers by age and establish generalizations about their expected behaviour...
Is, as predictable, complete rubbish.
Uphill, both ways, through the snow. Should be ashamed that you entertained the thought for even a moment.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Comments
Yeah look in the mirror.
The score is 2 games I enjoyed being disrupted by insane behavior by these folks. These are the same idiots that used to brag about hiding boxes in stores, and in some instances outright destroying them. It doesnt stop there though....you are ADD/carebear/whatever derogatory insult if you dont like "our" gamestyle. How long have you been on this site?
Sorry. I dont agree with your assessment. I dont disrupt their live game forums, and after yrs of the BS, it is simply calling a spade a spade. The minute I show up in the EVE forums campaigning cause it doesnt have something I like, or spamming the AA/Repop forums for not planning to include the things I want, then feel free to call me out.
Like I have said many times....I have no problem with constructive criticism. The behavior from these individuals is nothing short of disruptive at best, and flat out trolling at worst.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I'm not really sure if its the older gamers we should give the credit to or the older MMOs......
I think its a little of Both, The Older MMO's bred...mostly better mannered gamers....mostly. And Better mannered gamers were the only ones who could handle having to work hard for everything they got. Those that couldnt, left, and never looked back.
The majority are. If there was an iPhone app to wipe your ass - they'd use it. The make-up of the world has changed dramatically, and progress/change is a good thing, but human beings are slowly evolving into soft, impatient tech-junkies who demand instant gratification and a free ride in all aspects of their lives. I've played WoW since 2004 and there's definitely been a notable difference in playerbase over that period. Having said this and to be fair, there are still a handful of players (of all ages) who know how to play MMORPGs. There's absolutely no reason why rudeness or impatience should be 'the way of the future' other than the fact that human beings may very well be devolving into troglodytes.
You keep pointing your finger at these random people who have disrupted your game's forum in some way/shape/form. I don't know who they are or what they did, but every game I have ever enjoyed has been bashed or hated on by someone, you just have to move past it at some point. It's your perogative to stay pissed off at random faceless people if you want, but honestly I don't see how it will solve all that much. Sorry.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Eh could be. There's probably a lot of factors. I think it has to do with the games as well as society today.
The games are built to be competitive. Parallel, society has gotten more competitive and hostile. Jobs are hard to get, money is tight people are seeing others more and more as a threat due to the news constantly talking about people eating other peoples faces, rapes, murders, all that.
So it comes into our games. Its a fairly anti social society we live in and there are many factors. A great many. But that will flood over into gaming. If you play X Box Live its generally people yelling and cussing each other out. So even when people today do communicate, especially online, there is an amazing hostility going on there.
I've often said that a game's community is an important factor to its potential longetivity. Therefore if the majority of said community in a respecitve game is derisive, childish, immature, or otherwise insulting, who would want to stick around?
I don't know if that is anymore true today than it was in times past, but I'm think I'm justified in saying I feel as though I've had more bad experiences in recent times, rather that in the past. It seems as though alot of gamers these days just want to watch things burn.
I do think this has something to do with the loot/gear grind philosophy. Everyone wants to be on top of the ladder, and that creates alot of competition. It seemed like in times past, it took groups of players to accomplish worthwhile and meaningful things in game, and they were much more revered for those accomplishments because they took more than two seconds to complete.
To each their own I suppose, but I do yearn for those older days.
I agree with the OP, excellent post!
I was also there from the beggining, and I had much the same exp as the OP. I miss those days!
UO and AC1 had fantastic communities and grouping was definitely not forced in any way in those games. The "forced grouping breeds better community" theory is and has always been wrong.
I actually think it's the forced grouping / gear grind based "end games" which breed bad communities. Even if you complete a dungeon with others, it's all about who is going to win the loot at the end, you actually fight against your own team there. In AC1 for instance, there was no such thing, everybody doing a quest, even if it involved a party, got rewarded, not to mention the best gear of the game was available through soloing and not forced grouping.
I see one game going back to that design, GW2. You do something with others, everybody who participated gets rewarded. That's how the cooperative part of MMORPGs should be done to breed a nice community. How can a community be nice if you have to stomp players of your own side's faces into the mud in order for you to progress?
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
The continous focus on PvP as cheap filler content has changed the culture in these games over the years into something pretty vile. The game model is one that encourages friction, antagonism, and hostility, so it's no suprise that this has infected the gaming culture.
Add this solo non dependent play and the modern MMO culture should not come as a shock to anyone.
Ofc, hitting the mainstream and becoming the fad of the week, where people that didn't even like MMOs were playing them because it was the hip thing to do for a little bit, didn't help either.
Like I said, it doesnt stop at the games themselves....the stereotypes thrown go right along with it. It is usually a daily thing. I have been posting here 5 yrs, and it actually used to be worse around here for themepark/PVE gamers.
As far as some "mystery shopper", when you are around long enough on these forums, it becomes painfully obvious who is calling folks ADD/spoiled/PB Cruncher, blaming others cause their type of games wont be made, or consistently spamming certain game forums. So fault me if you want for reminding these folks where they sit on the dev ladder, but dont discount the issue at hand.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Personally, I disagree with your theory. Just because you consider yourself to be a more patient, social player, it does not qualify you to analyse a single themepark game and create an entire hypothesis based on your one negative experience.
Such an approach is entirely contradictory to the definition of patience, and if I'm totally honest your article title strikes me as quite ageist. I understand that you are a sandbox fan - I think you subtly implied that somewhere in this article - but if anything this is guaranteed to give you a negative outlook on any "themepark" game you dip your pinky toe in to. You need to have a broader outlook if you are going to try and criticise an aspect of gaming - let alone its ENTIRE AUDIENCE.
Let me be frank: there's a single reason sandbox MMOs are not produced widely anymore. That same reason links with the absence of "real MMOers", and in turn sums up the entire reason that your theory is completely un-realistic.
There is no time for a niche game in the modern world.
It's argued often, and sometimes very shoddily, but the fact is that that there is no time or money in sandbox games today. Hear me out before you smite me down, okay? But here's MY view on the situation:
1. Sandbox games require an amount of time, money and effort that companies simply cannot afford in the 21st century. In order to create your average modern MMO, as was highlighted in a dev perspective on this very site, you need state-of-the-art technology, skilled developers and millions of dollars. Those are the basic givens that are needed to pump out a title. And it instantly excludes most of the indie studios on this planet.
Sure, Kickstarter and similar programs can provide quick, easy financial support. But I don't want to get into the negatives of Kickstarter now - as it is I could go on for a millenium on the hidden complexity, the broken promises, the games you DON'T see failing to make the cut and dying off. But generally, modern MMOs are produced solely in the AAA, big budget bellies of billionaire gaming corporations.
All companies run on two things - money and time. Two currencies which, regardless of how efficiently they are spent, have the permanent effect of slowly disappearing when operating multi-million $ investments. Time is the big one here: do you have any idea how long it takes to create a structured, linear, themepark MMO these days, let alone one which is explicitly designed to be as rife with free-choice as possible?
A heck of a long time. Half a decade at the very least.
Time for the engine they started with to become outmoded.
Time for the money to run out.
Time for them to realise their core concepts suck.
Time for their other projects to reach critical mass, forcing them to rush or start pulling the plugs on some of their games. That's when priorities start coming up, that's when efficiency becomes key. And sandbox games ARE NOT EFFICIENT. They are virtually impossible to create in a climate where gamers want their quick fix, because they too have no time to spare. The cost is not worth it for either party.
Let me ask you: when, these days, if you are indeed above legal age, do you ever have time for games? Work, education, travel, cooking, cleaning, EVERYTHING: it is impossible to find the hours and hours of dedicated gameplay that would need to be invested in a sandbox worth its salt. Gaming audiences have not grown turned into younger, impatient sociopaths as you would suggest.
The average age of a gamer is over 40, for god's sake. At least in western countries.
Your take on the disappearance of "true, social, nice, kind and amazingly perfectly brilliant" online gamers, is that themepark MMOs have corrupted us and turned us into bitchy little punks who don't know what real gaming is. I disagree.
The gamers have not changed. The world has, brother. Time is running out. The money runs out too fast. The EXPECTATIONS that the consensus has generated has led to the running of a good quality MMO becoming outrageously expensive. The creation of good MMOs themselves has become a niche art.
Don't blame younger, more "impatient" gamers because we weren't around when the hours would drag away without any notable achievement. Blame the workplace. Blame the social expectation to have children. Blame anything, so long as it doesn't point the finger at the people who are just trying to squeeze in their favourite hobby amidst a life that can be literally crumbling around them every day.
Please.
I'm really sick of the whole "There's a massive fanbase for X", or "Y would be a WoW-killer if it just had a chance".
There is no massive conspiracy waiting in the MMO playerbase.
There are no "sleeper-agent fans" waiting to convert once the X or Y is unleashed on the world.
so now we are old...
?
I'm really sick of the whole "There's a massive fanbase for X", or "Y would be a WoW-killer if it just had a chance".
There is no massive conspiracy waiting in the MMO playerbase.
There are no "sleeper-agent fans" waiting to convert once the X or Y is unleashed on the world.
well its the same routine , old ppl talking about how good the past was and how awful teenagers are.
This is actually a good point, you do need a game to force you to cooperate or the community becomes a very poor one. Look at real life, what's stopping people from walking into a store and just taking what they want? Or attacking someone just for the fun of it? Consequences. We have a lot of social guidelines and protections in place, police and law enforcement being the main.
In a game like EverQuest people needed each other to progress, people who were idiots were shunned and given a bad name. The community policed itself. The more a game moves away from codependence, the less social it becomes and the more unruly the players can be.
To create a good community there need to be rules and consequences, without them people revert to baser instincts.
In old EQ days you had to be social, corpse runs etc often meant you had to ask for help!
Grouping then was important!
Nowadays solo is king, or rather running with mercs! yipeeee
No penalties means you can be a total jerk!
Bot Bot Bots!
Genre is dead, FTP crap can go do one.
Do not buy crap! it only encourages more crap!
One thing i will say, path of exile, search for it
It's much much simpler than that.
Back then mmorpg were things for few hardcore nerds that had the time and the patience to get invested in the game.
Right now 99% of the mmorpg population is made from your everyday gamer... from housewife to the 12 years old kid.
I know, right!?
Themeparks are obviously much cheaper than Sandboxes, and very easy to make. I remember this Themepark game that came out late last year, it was barely twice as expensive as any game ever made (not counting scrapping and restarting). Plus, it only took them like 6 years to make. And get this, their plan is to hang out at a small enough sub rate that it will take about 5 or 6 years to become profitable.
Talk about a quick buck!! Might as well be farmville!!
Plus everyone knows that making content takes WAAAAY less time than not making it does.
I agree, it's totally the games fault. They cater to solo and selfish play so much that people dont even know how to work together anymore.
Im also playing for more then decate mmo's and ive met my share of douchebags back then also same behavior in AC as they do now only maybe alot less then in '99.
But i realy don't care anymore i still if i can help people i still have my patience and i won't change and even sometimes i meet people same attitude or social skills so its not all lost hehe.
GW2 at least alot of douchbagging is not posible anymore so im looking forward to silencio game experience in that game but still players around me helping or revive me with not one word:)
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Over the course of the last fifteen years, my observation that any given attempt to segregate gamers by age and establish generalizations about their expected behaviour...
Is, as predictable, complete rubbish.
Uphill, both ways, through the snow. Should be ashamed that you entertained the thought for even a moment.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Yup. Pretty much. Just do what you do with old people, ignore them and their ramblings.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Exactly. That's what I do with ramblings like that.
I'm 36 years old. I was one of those "old school players". I've seen the whole thing. The OP is demented.