MMO developers should stop thinking about quests, writing stories and designing world. Instead they should start thinking about how they can give interactions, mechanisms and tools for players - and same time keep somekind balance and fairness to keep world fun for everyone.
As a long time player of pen and paper RPGs I must disagree here. I play MMORPGs to be the hero of the world, fight evil and get powerful in the process. I prefer games that offer a chance for roleplaying, roleplaying a real hero not a "member" of a big guild that constructs towns and sieges keeps.
In any RPG world I've visited I never created a town, nor did I become a simple pawn in the hands of some overlord. Nor did I participate in a big siege or any other kind of global scale PVP-like experience. That's why I prefer Themeparks to Sandbox games, they are closer to pnp RPGs than any Sandbox will ever be, at least if you are willing to try.
So no MMO developers shouldn't ignore quests, not everyone wants to play a nameless pawn that constructs/defends cities and keeps, some people want to experience a true story. The genre is huge and I'm certain there are lots of MMOs to suit the needs for everyone.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I did find the openness to be wonderful, almost like the days of swg, not completely the same but refreshing, it was like my brin had been trained from all the other moms I had tried, I was like ok where is the next locat to get quests...and it wast like that. Cheers!
MMO developers should stop thinking about quests, writing stories and designing world. Instead they should start thinking about how they can give interactions, mechanisms and tools for players - and same time keep somekind balance and fairness to keep world fun for everyone.
As a long time player of pen and paper RPGs I must disagree here. I play MMORPGs to be the hero of the world, fight evil and get powerful in the process. I prefer games that offer a chance for roleplaying, roleplaying a real hero not a "member" of a big guild that constructs towns and sieges keeps.
In any RPG world I've visited I never created a town, nor did I become a simple pawn in the hands of some overlord. Nor did I participate in a big siege or any other kind of global scale PVP-like experience. That's why I prefer Themeparks to Sandbox games, they are closer to pnp RPGs than any Sandbox will ever be, at least if you are willing to try.
So no MMO developers shouldn't ignore quests, not everyone wants to play a nameless pawn that constructs/defends cities and keeps, some people want to experience a true story. The genre is huge and I'm certain there are lots of MMOs to suit the needs for everyone.
Don't you ever feel like that your desire to be "the hero of the world" clashes with your immersion in MMORPGs? I wonder though how many people feel like you in that aspect. Perhaps the majority are happy with just being a member, socializing, going on adventures without ever feeling like being the "hero of the world"; at least that is what I've always suspected.
For me, the "the hero of the world" aspect is immersion-breaking and for selfish reasons I do hope that MMORPGs stop all catering to the " the hero of the world" people. However, I do think there is a place for specific guilds or even whole factions being the heroes of their world.
I don't think starting this thread was a good idea.
People tend to think that there's such a thing as an objective opinion, and thus take things kind of personally when someone has a differing view.
The truth is that everyone is biased. How you are introduced to a game, who you play it with, what you already expect of it, and what types of games you have gotten used to - all these things have as much as, if not more, to do with your opinion on a game, than the gameplay, setting and style of a game.
This isn't strictly a bias, but its an embedded part of our personalities, which nontheless skews our views on everything.
A person can therefore no more explain his reasons for liking or disliking a game, than he can explain to you his character and life history. It may be conveyable on some level, but the neuances and exact effects always get lost.
You can affirm this by observing how often two people will interpret the same fact as having completely opposite meanings.
As I once said before, I personally try, and urge people to, try to not label things because of some pre-conceived notion, and to try games (as well as other things in life) with a clear mind. If you like something - great. If you don't, just leave it be and move on to something else.
Just don't take it personally if someone disagrees with you.
Don't you ever feel like that your desire to be "the hero of the world" clashes with your immersion in MMORPGs? I wonder though how many people feel like you in that aspect. Perhaps the majority are happy with just being a member, socializing, going on adventures without ever feeling like being the "hero of the world"; at least that is what I've always suspected.
So you are asking, if I'm playing a pnp RPG and the game master gives me some "choice" on things to do, is it breaking my immersion? No certainly not. I prefer a "real" RPG universe that's more immersion-like than going out of town and watching hundreds of players battling just a few monsters, or even worse, battling among themselves with respawn timers.
For me, the "the hero of the world" aspect is immersion-breaking and for selfish reasons I do hope that MMORPGs stop all catering to the " the hero of the world" people. However, I do think there is a place for guilds or even whole factions being the heroes of their world.
I prefer games focus on the actual players, or better yet parties. I hate the whole idea of guilds being the "main character", whether being for "Raids" or "Sieges/Keeps/Towns" whatever. I've never played a single player RPG that offers that kind of "immersion", I always play the "hero of the world", is it so bad to want to play the "hero of the world" in an online setting, forming parties with others to progress?
Obviously for you, "the hero of the world" is immersion breaking in single player RPGs, or even worse in pnp RPGs.... which offers far superior immersion to anything a sandbox will ever hope to accomplish (pnp not single player RPGs).
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Regulation is a key part of design. All good design has this, whether you're making a game or not. As designs are basically plans laid out for any type of system, or information, you have to regulate in order to accomplish this. Having no regulation is not good design, it's having no design. Even a good sandbox will have regulation, because they will be designing the game to accomplish a certain idea, or goal for the players. This doesn't mean it has to be linear, and it doesn't mean it can't be open. But there has to be some form of thought, and control inplace, for something to be a game or a design.
And... balancing? Seriously.. balancing is your #3 big flaw of design? You think having a horribly imbalanced game is good design? Again.. what!? Bad balancing is a flaw, yes.
I fully agree, that regulation is neccesary in every game. But the theme-park is overdoing! The devs try to control the player perfectly along his ride. Even if this ride is a bit more complex and branched as in GW2. Compare the grade of regulation in EQ1 (1st gen theme-park) and EQ2 (2nd gen themepark like WoW), and you know, what i mean.
I also dont vote for unbalanced games. Balancing is neccessary! But again theme-parks overrate it. This leads to a situation, where every class is able to do the same. Everclass gets a dd, a dot, a snare. a stun, a heal, a debuff, a buff ... and so on. Class Diversity and Versatility is gone. Different tactics to approach a mob in a class sepcific way are gone or at least very limited. And this all because these criebabies on the forums, which just didnt know their class, whined about this ranger who could kill this mob better than my mage. And of course: as more options you give a player to approach a mob/encounter, as more complex and unregulated the situation becomes. and to control this costs more time and effort. that the very basic reason for theme-parks: cost-efficiency!
This thread is specifically for people who DON'T like GW2. I'm hoping to gain some understanding in a few areas. Primarily, what is it you don't like about the game? ...
I find GW2 completely uninteresting, the most themeparky of the themeparks. In a way it's WoW 2.0 - an MMO made for people that don't like MMORPGs, streamlined for convenience and if a new generation of game consoles had been around GW2 would be a console game, it's arcade material. Don't understand me wrong - it's very well made arcade material.
Normally I would have just completely ignored GW2 (like I completely ignore Diablo 3, TSW and Tera) - if not for the hordes of raging fans GW2 seems to create. You can't have a thread in the pub without sooner or later (rather sooner) some fan coming in to tell us all how "awesome" GW2 is. Frankly, I started to have a look at the GW2 boards here because I find it entertaining - reading posts from people all up in excitement because they can collect some apples and do some "hearts" - how cute.
And then the "innovation" - there's a thread about the trinity now in the pub with people telling us how GW2 innovated the genre with the removal of the trinity - and I only have to look at http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/349518 to find plenty of games that had no trinity years ago - yet people claim it's something that was invented by ArenaNet.
To sum it up - I find GW2 boring, shallow, uninspired, streamlined, game-y, no depth, no complexity, an arcade action combat game - and I predict that the game will follow the exact same path we've seen with the others: 6 months after release people will complain about empty servers: "Where is everyone?"
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
THe Original Poster wanted to start a discussion with a clear "Insight" into the game itself,
basically to get a refference of some sort to be able to actually get a bett opinion out of this.
After reading through some posts its just the usual "Like/Don´t like" all over again.
As i am looking forward to this game aswell id reall like to get some "REAL" info,
on what needs still to be done or what EXACTLY was a turn OFF for you guys.
At best, if the only thing you have to say is like "STUPIDGAMEWTF" or
"GW2OWNSSTFU" id advise you NOT to post.
On the other Hand helpful comments Would be awesome to read...
kkthxbye
So, when i stated the things i didn't like, it wasn't real info? Could you show me in my post where i say anything even close to "stupidgamewtf" or anything like that? What is "real info and insight" to you then?
I have fine FPS but my computer is pretty kick@ss. Anyways I would be very surprised if the FPS wouldn't rise after the beta, the only cases I seen in betas so far of that is when they translate a game from another language, like Lineage and Tera, all other games have performed a lot better after beta.
Skills limited to weapons, i hate that
That is something I can understand, personally I think it is a lot worse when everyone more or less always have the same skills based on their class though, or worse, when everyone of a class only can use a single weapon.
Teleporting around, it makes the world seem small
I agree 100% with you and that is why I decided to only teleport when I am to meet up with friends. No problem with it so far.
The stupid server lock thing
Questing, It feels like a new way of doing the old method, I didn't like it at all, just felt like a grind and box check ...it was soooooo boring
Hearth quests are just regular quests without turnins, yes. DEs however are a lot more advanced but you don't see that many of them in the noob zones since they are made to teach the players to play. I like DEs and often avoud HQs.
Can jump to highest level to PVP, i hate that
That I have harder to understand. Sure, the perfect solution is to not have levels and to have a lot less difference between noobs and vets but this is the only method in a levelbased game that makes PvP interesting. Ganking noobs is extremely boring to me.
Cash shop(although I don't know much about it)
I seen the cashshop. Sure, extra character slots and more bankslots are useful, but the rest of the stuff is just crap anyways. If someone wants to buy 50 dye packs or a wedding dress, let them. Particularly useless is that key that open the trashchest that have some transogriff pots (visual only, no stat changes) and some other junk in.
Loading screens between zones
Buy an SSD, it helps a lot.
I don't like the way the game maniupulates your level to correspond to the content
I on the other hand love that part, it makes things harder and MMOs are way too easy in my opinion but difficulty is relative to your skill.
No open world PVP
That is a design choice, but I can understand if you prefer open world PvP servers.
Little to no character progression
What do you mean? GW2 have as much character progression as most MMOs. It have little gear progression though but that is not the same thing at all, no matter what SOE and Blizzard want you to believe.
I didn't care for the story and don't really like the lore
Yeah, that I can't argur for or against, it is just like art a personal preferance.
The price is rediculous, glad I played it on roommates account before purchasing
Really? Here (Sweden) it cost exactly as much as Diablo 3 and most other new games. I don´t think that is GW2s fault but your retailers.
It felt like a crappy PVP E-sport with optional, kinda pointless PVE, and to be honest I enjoy PVE more.
I mainly play PvE and did not see it as optional at all. In my world the main point of GW2 are the hard, large dungeons full of traps and nasty surprises. If you didn't try them you never really PvEd for real.
PVP was bland and repetitive
I didn't think so, but whatever.
The whole game seemed like one massive zerg
There I really don't agree with you. As I said, the point of PvEing are dungeons, just like in Wow and just imagine if someone reviewd Wow or EQ without trying a dungeon.
But what I hate most of all, this has taken me from disliking the game to down right hating it, are the fans. I have never seen such deluded people in all my life. On this site alone I have read posts claiming that GW2 is redefining MMOs, that it will sale upwards of 30 million copies, that all other MMOs will become void, that developers will start modeling their MMOs after GW2,that A-NET are the greatest developers ever. Every day I see the same crazy hype for a game that is, in my opinion, mediocre at best. These guys keep talking down to people "oh if you don't like GW2 you just don't like MMOs". It's very infuriating.
----Also, I bet I get someone who will quote this post and try to refute my own opinion.
Not playing a game because there are some rabid fans takes away all MMOs. Things are always worse short before release, check back to any oher MMO the last few years including smaller games like MO and DF. --games close to release attarcts trolls on both sides like moths to light and GW2 is together with TOR the best funded MMO to release in a long time.
I just think you actually should try a dungeon in explorable mode before decing what you really think of the game, and that really goes for any game.
And sure, GW2 is far from perfect but it is still one of the few MMOs that stands out the last few years. And it is actually fun if you give it a chanse, or at least I think it is.
I guess GW2 is more about Pay2Convenience, which is fine with me.
Fully agree. I have a clear opinion about Pay2Win:
If a player is able to pay real money in order to win, this alone makes this game not Pay2Win. It just makes this single player Pay2Win.
But, if as a result, this player enforces other players to pay, too, in order to win, then it is Pay2Win.
So the pure existance of a cash-shop and even real money transfer does not define Pay2Win. It is all about, what you can buy, others cant get, without real money with reasonable effort. As long as i can get every item, which helps me to win, with reasonable effort without cash, the this game is just Pay2Convenience. i like this wording Herodes
Originally posted by ZenonSeth I don't think starting this thread was a good idea.
People tend to think that there's such a thing as an objective opinion, and thus take things kind of personally when someone has a differing view.
The truth is that everyone is biased. How you are introduced to a game, who you play it with, what you already expect of it, and what types of games you have gotten used to - all these things have as much as, if not more, to do with your opinion on a game, than the gameplay, setting and style of a game.
This isn't strictly a bias, but its an embedded part of our personalities, which nontheless skews our views on everything.
A person can therefore no more explain his reasons for liking or disliking a game, than he can explain to you his character and life history. It may be conveyable on some level, but the neuances and exact effects always get lost.
You can affirm this by observing how often two people will interpret the same fact as having completely opposite meanings.
As I once said before, I personally try, and urge people to, try to not label things because of some pre-conceived notion, and to try games (as well as other things in life) with a clear mind. If you like something - great. If you don't, just leave it be and move on to something else.
Just don't take it personally if someone disagrees with you.
Questing, It feels like a new way of doing the old method, I didn't like it at all, just felt like a grind and box check ...it was soooooo boring
Can jump to highest level to PVP, i hate that
Cash shop(although I don't know much about it)
Loading screens between zones
I don't like the way the game maniupulates your level to correspond to the content
No open world PVP
Little to no character progression
I didn't care for the story and don't really like the lore
The price is rediculous, glad I played it on roommates account before purchasing
It felt like a crappy PVP E-sport with optional, kinda pointless PVE, and to be honest I enjoy PVE more.
PVP was bland and repetitive
The whole game seemed like one massive zerg
But what I hate most of all, this has taken me from disliking the game to down right hating it, are the fans. I have never seen such deluded people in all my life. On this site alone I have read posts claiming that GW2 is redefining MMOs, that it will sale upwards of 30 million copies, that all other MMOs will become void, that developers will start modeling their MMOs after GW2,that A-NET are the greatest developers ever. Every day I see the same crazy hype for a game that is, in my opinion, mediocre at best. These guys keep talking down to people "oh if you don't like GW2 you just don't like MMOs". It's very infuriating.
----Also, I bet I get someone who will quote this post and try to refute my own opinion.
You basically said everything I feel.I would just add I don't like action combat and as an earlier poster pointed out 'if we don't agree with the OP were just retards because he/she is right and everything is awesome'.The 'trinity' removal (hate that word,did Arenanet invent it for roles or what?') is also horrible and 1 hotbar is restrictive no matter what you say less is NOT customisation.
Don't you ever feel like that your desire to be "the hero of the world" clashes with your immersion in MMORPGs? I wonder though how many people feel like you in that aspect. Perhaps the majority are happy with just being a member, socializing, going on adventures without ever feeling like being the "hero of the world"; at least that is what I've always suspected.
So you are asking, if I'm playing a pnp RPG and the game master gives me some "choice" on things to do, is it breaking my immersion? No certainly not. I prefer a "real" RPG universe that's more immersion-like than going out of town and watching hundreds of players battling just a few monsters, or even worse, battling among themselves with respawn timers.
For me, the "the hero of the world" aspect is immersion-breaking and for selfish reasons I do hope that MMORPGs stop all catering to the " the hero of the world" people. However, I do think there is a place for guilds or even whole factions being the heroes of their world.
I prefer games focus on the actual players, or better yet parties. I hate the whole idea of guilds being the "main character", whether being for "Raids" or "Sieges/Keeps/Towns" whatever. I've never played a single player RPG that offers that kind of "immersion", I always play the "hero of the world", is it so bad to want to play the "hero of the world" in an online setting, forming parties with others to progress?
Obviously for you, "the hero of the world" is immersion breaking in single player RPGs, or even worse in pnp RPGs.... which offers far superior immersion to anything a sandbox will ever hope to accomplish (pnp not single player RPGs).
In single player RPGs it is usually not immersion breaking since there is no contradiction in one person being the hero of a world. The problem with the "I want to be the hero of the world" in MMORPGs is that can lead to the bizarre situation where you have many players who are all "the hero of the world" which leads to a contradiction within that world. You cannot all be the one person who individually defeated the big threat. All parties cannot all be the one party that defeated the big threat.
Edit:: if you want to try a great Single Player RPG where the main character is by many not considered to be "the hero of the world": play Final Fantasy 12.
Well, first I'm really tired of fantasy games. I have played tens of games with elves, wizards and such and I feel like I'm done with them. This is not GW2 problem but mine.
Second, watching GW2 vids doesn't spark any interest in me. Nothing, nada. I agree it's well done etc, but it doesn't seem like an MMO I'd want to play. Honestly I don't even know what it is but I just do not like it. Maybe it's because I don't like fantasy games anymore but maybe it's because it doesn't stand out among many good fantasy MMOs. I think that EQ and VG were and VG still is better than GW2.
Last but not least are GW2 community which is more like a religious sect. GW2 fanbois just troll every other game in this site and many others. There are bad apples in every community but GW2 fanbois stand out imho with trolling and hatered.
Well, first I'm really tired of fantasy games. I have played tens of games with elves, wizards and such and I feel like I'm done with them. This is not GW2 problem but mine.
Second, watching GW2 vids doesn't spark any interest in me. Nothing, nada. I agree it's well done etc, but it doesn't seem like an MMO I'd want to play. Honestly I don't even know what it is but I just do not like it. Maybe it's because I don't like fantasy games anymore but maybe it's because it doesn't stand out among many good fantasy MMOs. I think that EQ and VG were and VG still is better than GW2.
Last but not least are GW2 community which is more like a religious sect. GW2 fanbois just troll every other game in this site and many others. There are bad apples in every community but GW2 fanbois stand out imho with trolling and hatered.
Well, the 2 first things are hard to argue with. Sometimes a game just don´t work for someone.
The third thing however will fix itself a while after launch. Unreleased games have bad communities, just look on last large release TOR. Same thing there really, plenty of trollsand people assuming everyone not agreeing or liking exactly the same thing as them are morons. We seen the same thing with AoC, WAR and every other game that interests a lot of people before release. But these people have so far always moved on a while after release.
Besides, most GW2 fans are not rabid morons, but they are just harder to hear since the trolls always are louder.
Well, first I'm really tired of fantasy games. I have played tens of games with elves, wizards and such and I feel like I'm done with them. This is not GW2 problem but mine.
Second, watching GW2 vids doesn't spark any interest in me. Nothing, nada. I agree it's well done etc, but it doesn't seem like an MMO I'd want to play. Honestly I don't even know what it is but I just do not like it. Maybe it's because I don't like fantasy games anymore but maybe it's because it doesn't stand out among many good fantasy MMOs. I think that EQ and VG were and VG still is better than GW2.
Last but not least are GW2 community which is more like a religious sect. GW2 fanbois just troll every other game in this site and many others. There are bad apples in every community but GW2 fanbois stand out imho with trolling and hatered.
The reason you will find many GW2 "fanbois" and trolls is that it is so easy to defend this game, there is not 1 major problem with the game. There may be other features in the game that you will not like, but the community will just say it was a "design" choice.
So what you will find in a discussion is GW2 fanbois bashing other games of the 1 of the major problem the game has. Tera don't have the best questing and TSW dont have a very well made combat system.
Well, first I'm really tired of fantasy games. I have played tens of games with elves, wizards and such and I feel like I'm done with them. This is not GW2 problem but mine.
Second, watching GW2 vids doesn't spark any interest in me. Nothing, nada. I agree it's well done etc, but it doesn't seem like an MMO I'd want to play. Honestly I don't even know what it is but I just do not like it. Maybe it's because I don't like fantasy games anymore but maybe it's because it doesn't stand out among many good fantasy MMOs. I think that EQ and VG were and VG still is better than GW2.
Last but not least are GW2 community which is more like a religious sect. GW2 fanbois just troll every other game in this site and many others. There are bad apples in every community but GW2 fanbois stand out imho with trolling and hatered.
The reason you will find many GW2 "fanbois" and trolls is that it is so easy to defend this game, there is not 1 major problem with the game. There may be other features in the game that you will not like, but the community will just say it was a "design" choice.
So what you will find in a discussion is GW2 fanbois bashing other games of the 1 of the major problem the game has. Tera don't have the best questing and TSW dont have a very well made combat system.
Is it easy to defend comments such as the one below?
"Yet again ArenaNet shows why it is superior to other MMO developers and why GW2 will be the best MMO on market once it goes live, be happy ppl the new age of MMOs is coming, no more EQ/WoW clones !!!!" Source: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5071648#5071648
Combat is great, but classes feel so bland and meh. Mesmer and engineer are cool, but the rest feel so homogenized and not unique enough
DE and HE are a great step in questing, but they're all kill, fecth and escort quests
Personall story is just meh IMO.
And the pvp, while nice because of the combat, etc, feels so useless and unimportant. I mean, BG's and general pvp already does many times in themeparks, but it's so seperated from the "world" (pve part), that i don't think there's a connection.
- youre only saying this because you have no idea how to play them to their full potential. i seriously doubt you have figured out even one combo field effect, not to mention all of them. each class is completely unique. the simplest by far is the ranger, but there's nothing wrong with that.
- DE's are the next big thing in MMO history. all future MMO's without DE's will be subpar. there are also defend the town missions. personally, i cant think of any more types. if you can, maybe you should work for ANet
- personal story sucks, but theyre basically catering to the solo, traditional MMO lovers on this one.
- WvW, while a separate game, is huge. what's the complaint i dont understand? you can get lost in it for hundreds of hours.
Originally posted by ZenonSeth I don't think starting this thread was a good idea.
I think the opposite (see what I did there?)
I believe some opinions posted here are interesting points of view and, while I don't agree with some of them, I can certainly understand where they are coming from. Listening to other people's opinions is always fruitful IF you can understand and respect this simple fact. It gives us breadth and depth about our own views.
There are some very interesting posts, in here, and I thank those who took the time to put it in an organized fashion.
There is no open world pvp. Persistent instance where pvp happens is not an open world pvp
Open world equals an area of the game where everyone can go without getting instanced to their own instance. A.k.a. a single persistent instance. So yes, WvW is open world pvp. It is just limited to a smaller part of the open world. I do understand that when people say "open world pvp" they generally mean "all over the open world pvp". But even then, in most such games there are often huge areas that are restricted.
So the real question here is, how large a percentage of the open world needs to contain pvp for the game to be considered as "open world pvp"?
There is no open world pvp. Persistent instance where pvp happens is not an open world pvp
Open world equals an area of the game where everyone can go without getting instanced to their own instance. A.k.a. a single persistent instance. So yes, WvW is open world pvp. It is just limited to a smaller part of the open world. I do understand that when people say "open world pvp" they generally mean "all over the open world pvp". But even then, in most such games there are often huge areas that are restricted.
So the real question here is, how large a percentage of the open world needs to contain pvp for the game to be considered as "open world pvp"?
World vs World is not open world pvp because you can get in a queue. Never have I seen a place in open world where I have to wait to enter.
i think one of the major things people are missing about this game is because of the invention of scouts - your average MMO player these days has no real imagination, there idea of playing the game is going from scout to scout, unlocking hearts and winning there way to end game. Scouts were invented by ArenaNet for gamers like you. they had to, in focus groups they had players wandering aimlessly around the world with no direction or idea what todo so they added scouts...
The game as it's meant to be played is without scouts, go out into the world and find your own adventure, of course you come across hearts, but they arent the only dynamic events in the areas... if the game is played as it's meant to be it feels very open and fast, you can wander around for ages and all of a sudden stumble onto a DE and be in the midst of battle with bandits or putting out a farm fire.. the objectives dont matter but using the scouts takes a lot away from the gameplay itself.
the problem i feel that arenanet has had with designing this game as the "next step" is that they couldnt be so innovative that they would alienate current MMO players who are used to a certain forumla.. but moreso ease them towards something new and hope that developers over the next few years continue to build on that until we reach a true second gen MMO. I feel they have done the right thing, i think while they could have been a little more innovative, they have inevitibly done what needs to be done to start reaching the next step in MMOvolution.
There is no open world pvp. Persistent instance where pvp happens is not an open world pvp
Open world equals an area of the game where everyone can go without getting instanced to their own instance. A.k.a. a single persistent instance. So yes, WvW is open world pvp. It is just limited to a smaller part of the open world. I do understand that when people say "open world pvp" they generally mean "all over the open world pvp". But even then, in most such games there are often huge areas that are restricted.
So the real question here is, how large a percentage of the open world needs to contain pvp for the game to be considered as "open world pvp"?
That is a good a question and instead of answering it, I think it is better to discuss what people like with what they consider to be Open World PvP.
A few things I like about Open World PvP:
* Huge variation in scenery for fights. I hope the Mists provide enough of this.
* PvPvE in form of active PvPing around world boss spawns. Not only do you have to be paying attention and surviving the insanely powerful world boss attacks, but you also need to fight off other players, scout for hiding players, keep an eye who has aggro and claim so that your team gets the loot when the boss dies.
Furthermore, those world bosses need to be attractive enough to always lead to intense PvP fights. I don't want scenarios where the boss spawns, but we are the only group there and noone even tries to PvP us.
* When engaging in efficient (keyword: efficient) PvE leveling, I want to need to plan my routes, including escape routes, carefully. I want to always need to be alert about my surroundings. When fighting a mob, I want to always keep in mind that any second a player could come and try pk me if I am careless.
Off-topic: What is with all the people that hate for the sake of hating? I mean, if there is a game that you dislike, its your right to dislike it. Hating the game, however, because someone is overhyped for it, is stupid and moronic as being overhyped.
Now to answer OP: I personally think that WvW may eventually become weaker part of game, in case that some of realms face underpopulation, however I may be proven wrong. On the other hand i understand their design philosophy, they want to remove open world PvP to prevent gankers and griefers to jeopardize Dynamic Events and to put it on separate maps (i find this feature to be major reason why "true HC PVPers" are distracted from GW2).
Other than this, i think that GW2, while not perfect, will do well and no MMORPG managed to hold my attention this much since early WoW and EQ (and, lets face it, even those werent 'second coming' and perfection the day they were released). I can surely bet that i am not the only one.
EDIT: a global typo
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2 Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
Comments
As a long time player of pen and paper RPGs I must disagree here. I play MMORPGs to be the hero of the world, fight evil and get powerful in the process. I prefer games that offer a chance for roleplaying, roleplaying a real hero not a "member" of a big guild that constructs towns and sieges keeps.
In any RPG world I've visited I never created a town, nor did I become a simple pawn in the hands of some overlord. Nor did I participate in a big siege or any other kind of global scale PVP-like experience. That's why I prefer Themeparks to Sandbox games, they are closer to pnp RPGs than any Sandbox will ever be, at least if you are willing to try.
So no MMO developers shouldn't ignore quests, not everyone wants to play a nameless pawn that constructs/defends cities and keeps, some people want to experience a true story. The genre is huge and I'm certain there are lots of MMOs to suit the needs for everyone.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Don't you ever feel like that your desire to be "the hero of the world" clashes with your immersion in MMORPGs? I wonder though how many people feel like you in that aspect. Perhaps the majority are happy with just being a member, socializing, going on adventures without ever feeling like being the "hero of the world"; at least that is what I've always suspected.
For me, the "the hero of the world" aspect is immersion-breaking and for selfish reasons I do hope that MMORPGs stop all catering to the " the hero of the world" people. However, I do think there is a place for specific guilds or even whole factions being the heroes of their world.
The thing is about this Thread:
THe Original Poster wanted to start a discussion with a clear "Insight" into the game itself,
basically to get a refference of some sort to be able to actually get a bett opinion out of this.
After reading through some posts its just the usual "Like/Don´t like" all over again.
As i am looking forward to this game aswell id reall like to get some "REAL" info,
on what needs still to be done or what EXACTLY was a turn OFF for you guys.
At best, if the only thing you have to say is like "STUPIDGAMEWTF" or
"GW2OWNSSTFU" id advise you NOT to post.
On the other Hand helpful comments Would be awesome to read...
kkthxbye
Which FF Character Are You?
People tend to think that there's such a thing as an objective opinion, and thus take things kind of personally when someone has a differing view.
The truth is that everyone is biased. How you are introduced to a game, who you play it with, what you already expect of it, and what types of games you have gotten used to - all these things have as much as, if not more, to do with your opinion on a game, than the gameplay, setting and style of a game.
This isn't strictly a bias, but its an embedded part of our personalities, which nontheless skews our views on everything.
A person can therefore no more explain his reasons for liking or disliking a game, than he can explain to you his character and life history. It may be conveyable on some level, but the neuances and exact effects always get lost.
You can affirm this by observing how often two people will interpret the same fact as having completely opposite meanings.
As I once said before, I personally try, and urge people to, try to not label things because of some pre-conceived notion, and to try games (as well as other things in life) with a clear mind. If you like something - great. If you don't, just leave it be and move on to something else.
Just don't take it personally if someone disagrees with you.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I fully agree, that regulation is neccesary in every game. But the theme-park is overdoing! The devs try to control the player perfectly along his ride. Even if this ride is a bit more complex and branched as in GW2. Compare the grade of regulation in EQ1 (1st gen theme-park) and EQ2 (2nd gen themepark like WoW), and you know, what i mean.
I also dont vote for unbalanced games. Balancing is neccessary! But again theme-parks overrate it. This leads to a situation, where every class is able to do the same. Everclass gets a dd, a dot, a snare. a stun, a heal, a debuff, a buff ... and so on. Class Diversity and Versatility is gone. Different tactics to approach a mob in a class sepcific way are gone or at least very limited. And this all because these criebabies on the forums, which just didnt know their class, whined about this ranger who could kill this mob better than my mage. And of course: as more options you give a player to approach a mob/encounter, as more complex and unregulated the situation becomes. and to control this costs more time and effort. that the very basic reason for theme-parks: cost-efficiency!
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
I find GW2 completely uninteresting, the most themeparky of the themeparks. In a way it's WoW 2.0 - an MMO made for people that don't like MMORPGs, streamlined for convenience and if a new generation of game consoles had been around GW2 would be a console game, it's arcade material. Don't understand me wrong - it's very well made arcade material.
Normally I would have just completely ignored GW2 (like I completely ignore Diablo 3, TSW and Tera) - if not for the hordes of raging fans GW2 seems to create. You can't have a thread in the pub without sooner or later (rather sooner) some fan coming in to tell us all how "awesome" GW2 is. Frankly, I started to have a look at the GW2 boards here because I find it entertaining - reading posts from people all up in excitement because they can collect some apples and do some "hearts" - how cute.
And then the "innovation" - there's a thread about the trinity now in the pub with people telling us how GW2 innovated the genre with the removal of the trinity - and I only have to look at http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/349518 to find plenty of games that had no trinity years ago - yet people claim it's something that was invented by ArenaNet.
To sum it up - I find GW2 boring, shallow, uninspired, streamlined, game-y, no depth, no complexity, an arcade action combat game - and I predict that the game will follow the exact same path we've seen with the others: 6 months after release people will complain about empty servers: "Where is everyone?"
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
So, when i stated the things i didn't like, it wasn't real info? Could you show me in my post where i say anything even close to "stupidgamewtf" or anything like that? What is "real info and insight" to you then?
Not playing a game because there are some rabid fans takes away all MMOs. Things are always worse short before release, check back to any oher MMO the last few years including smaller games like MO and DF. --games close to release attarcts trolls on both sides like moths to light and GW2 is together with TOR the best funded MMO to release in a long time.
I just think you actually should try a dungeon in explorable mode before decing what you really think of the game, and that really goes for any game.
And sure, GW2 is far from perfect but it is still one of the few MMOs that stands out the last few years. And it is actually fun if you give it a chanse, or at least I think it is.
Fully agree. I have a clear opinion about Pay2Win:
If a player is able to pay real money in order to win, this alone makes this game not Pay2Win. It just makes this single player Pay2Win.
But, if as a result, this player enforces other players to pay, too, in order to win, then it is Pay2Win.
So the pure existance of a cash-shop and even real money transfer does not define Pay2Win. It is all about, what you can buy, others cant get, without real money with reasonable effort. As long as i can get every item, which helps me to win, with reasonable effort without cash, the this game is just Pay2Convenience. i like this wording Herodes
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
+1
You basically said everything I feel.I would just add I don't like action combat and as an earlier poster pointed out 'if we don't agree with the OP were just retards because he/she is right and everything is awesome'.The 'trinity' removal (hate that word,did Arenanet invent it for roles or what?') is also horrible and 1 hotbar is restrictive no matter what you say less is NOT customisation.
In single player RPGs it is usually not immersion breaking since there is no contradiction in one person being the hero of a world. The problem with the "I want to be the hero of the world" in MMORPGs is that can lead to the bizarre situation where you have many players who are all "the hero of the world" which leads to a contradiction within that world. You cannot all be the one person who individually defeated the big threat. All parties cannot all be the one party that defeated the big threat.
Edit:: if you want to try a great Single Player RPG where the main character is by many not considered to be "the hero of the world": play Final Fantasy 12.
Well, first I'm really tired of fantasy games. I have played tens of games with elves, wizards and such and I feel like I'm done with them. This is not GW2 problem but mine.
Second, watching GW2 vids doesn't spark any interest in me. Nothing, nada. I agree it's well done etc, but it doesn't seem like an MMO I'd want to play. Honestly I don't even know what it is but I just do not like it. Maybe it's because I don't like fantasy games anymore but maybe it's because it doesn't stand out among many good fantasy MMOs. I think that EQ and VG were and VG still is better than GW2.
Last but not least are GW2 community which is more like a religious sect. GW2 fanbois just troll every other game in this site and many others. There are bad apples in every community but GW2 fanbois stand out imho with trolling and hatered.
Well, the 2 first things are hard to argue with. Sometimes a game just don´t work for someone.
The third thing however will fix itself a while after launch. Unreleased games have bad communities, just look on last large release TOR. Same thing there really, plenty of trollsand people assuming everyone not agreeing or liking exactly the same thing as them are morons. We seen the same thing with AoC, WAR and every other game that interests a lot of people before release. But these people have so far always moved on a while after release.
Besides, most GW2 fans are not rabid morons, but they are just harder to hear since the trolls always are louder.
The reason you will find many GW2 "fanbois" and trolls is that it is so easy to defend this game, there is not 1 major problem with the game. There may be other features in the game that you will not like, but the community will just say it was a "design" choice.
So what you will find in a discussion is GW2 fanbois bashing other games of the 1 of the major problem the game has. Tera don't have the best questing and TSW dont have a very well made combat system.
Is it easy to defend comments such as the one below?
"Yet again ArenaNet shows why it is superior to other MMO developers and why GW2 will be the best MMO on market once it goes live, be happy ppl the new age of MMOs is coming, no more EQ/WoW clones !!!!" Source: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5071648#5071648
- youre only saying this because you have no idea how to play them to their full potential. i seriously doubt you have figured out even one combo field effect, not to mention all of them. each class is completely unique. the simplest by far is the ranger, but there's nothing wrong with that.
- DE's are the next big thing in MMO history. all future MMO's without DE's will be subpar. there are also defend the town missions. personally, i cant think of any more types. if you can, maybe you should work for ANet
- personal story sucks, but theyre basically catering to the solo, traditional MMO lovers on this one.
- WvW, while a separate game, is huge. what's the complaint i dont understand? you can get lost in it for hundreds of hours.
I think the opposite (see what I did there?)
I believe some opinions posted here are interesting points of view and, while I don't agree with some of them, I can certainly understand where they are coming from. Listening to other people's opinions is always fruitful IF you can understand and respect this simple fact. It gives us breadth and depth about our own views.
There are some very interesting posts, in here, and I thank those who took the time to put it in an organized fashion.
Open world equals an area of the game where everyone can go without getting instanced to their own instance. A.k.a. a single persistent instance. So yes, WvW is open world pvp. It is just limited to a smaller part of the open world. I do understand that when people say "open world pvp" they generally mean "all over the open world pvp". But even then, in most such games there are often huge areas that are restricted.
So the real question here is, how large a percentage of the open world needs to contain pvp for the game to be considered as "open world pvp"?
World vs World is not open world pvp because you can get in a queue. Never have I seen a place in open world where I have to wait to enter.
i think one of the major things people are missing about this game is because of the invention of scouts - your average MMO player these days has no real imagination, there idea of playing the game is going from scout to scout, unlocking hearts and winning there way to end game. Scouts were invented by ArenaNet for gamers like you. they had to, in focus groups they had players wandering aimlessly around the world with no direction or idea what todo so they added scouts...
The game as it's meant to be played is without scouts, go out into the world and find your own adventure, of course you come across hearts, but they arent the only dynamic events in the areas... if the game is played as it's meant to be it feels very open and fast, you can wander around for ages and all of a sudden stumble onto a DE and be in the midst of battle with bandits or putting out a farm fire.. the objectives dont matter but using the scouts takes a lot away from the gameplay itself.
the problem i feel that arenanet has had with designing this game as the "next step" is that they couldnt be so innovative that they would alienate current MMO players who are used to a certain forumla.. but moreso ease them towards something new and hope that developers over the next few years continue to build on that until we reach a true second gen MMO. I feel they have done the right thing, i think while they could have been a little more innovative, they have inevitibly done what needs to be done to start reaching the next step in MMOvolution.
That is a good a question and instead of answering it, I think it is better to discuss what people like with what they consider to be Open World PvP.
A few things I like about Open World PvP:
* Huge variation in scenery for fights. I hope the Mists provide enough of this.
* PvPvE in form of active PvPing around world boss spawns. Not only do you have to be paying attention and surviving the insanely powerful world boss attacks, but you also need to fight off other players, scout for hiding players, keep an eye who has aggro and claim so that your team gets the loot when the boss dies.
Furthermore, those world bosses need to be attractive enough to always lead to intense PvP fights. I don't want scenarios where the boss spawns, but we are the only group there and noone even tries to PvP us.
* When engaging in efficient (keyword: efficient) PvE leveling, I want to need to plan my routes, including escape routes, carefully. I want to always need to be alert about my surroundings. When fighting a mob, I want to always keep in mind that any second a player could come and try pk me if I am careless.
Off-topic: What is with all the people that hate for the sake of hating? I mean, if there is a game that you dislike, its your right to dislike it. Hating the game, however, because someone is overhyped for it, is stupid and moronic as being overhyped.
Now to answer OP: I personally think that WvW may eventually become weaker part of game, in case that some of realms face underpopulation, however I may be proven wrong. On the other hand i understand their design philosophy, they want to remove open world PvP to prevent gankers and griefers to jeopardize Dynamic Events and to put it on separate maps (i find this feature to be major reason why "true HC PVPers" are distracted from GW2).
Other than this, i think that GW2, while not perfect, will do well and no MMORPG managed to hold my attention this much since early WoW and EQ (and, lets face it, even those werent 'second coming' and perfection the day they were released). I can surely bet that i am not the only one.
EDIT: a global typo
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online