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Is it fun? The hubris of bucking convention.
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They have broken with tank-spank basi routines used by 99% of MMOs.
They have broken with the 'mission hub' mentality.
They are a true MMO without subscriptions, with Triple A production.
They provide different flavors of PvP, depending on your style.
Separately, these are one thing. Under the same hood, they make for a great title.
Thus, they changed many MMO dogmas.
Gear grind is required? Hardly. Gear grind is boring as hell. Any grind is boring as hell, THAT'S WHY IT'S CALLED A GRIND! Mmorpg's suck for the most part because they don't focus on fun. They focus on giving a playing a boring task, but then rewarding them for completing it. Player's get brainwashed by the reward and think they are having fun when in reality they are not having fun at all. It's complete craziness and this is why players quit when they get through all the content. MMORPG's are not fun. GW2 has at least moved away from the Pavlovian model though, and I'll give them props for that. I might even play the game since they don't have the kind of hubris some companies do in thinking that someone will pay them 15 dollars a month to play their game. On the downside, GW2's combat is completely boring and crappy, just like other mmorpgs. It tries to disguise the tab targetting but it is the same no skill system that other mmorpg's use so that unskilled gamers can fool themselves into thinking they are skilled, and skilled gamers will never be forced to question their own abilities.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
No, other games have made minor adjustments and failed to capture people who had "done it before" plus the shorter dev time compared to games that have had years to work out issues helps. The games you mention are all games that were great because they did something new and did it well. Suggesting things need to stay the same is as counter productive as saying they need to change without having a good reason why.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
i wouldn't classify this as hubris. i would classify it as a thing i like to call "advertising."
the thing about advertising is, when one is trying to sell a product to people it is often best not to mention one's doubts, fears, or anxieties about possible shortcomings of that product.
sometimes companies are going to try to sell you things. when that happens you are probably going to hear a lot of great stuff about the thing they are trying to sell you. it will be a long time before you see a game developer sell you a game on a platform of "this is an OK game that is kinda good and kinda crappy but please buy it anyways."
there is just no reason to get butt-hurt over a company making great claims about their product and accuse them of hubris.
You are wrong. So Soooo Wrong. This is why you dont enjoy MMOs anymore.
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
In my opinion, ANet has done this as well. The BWEs are by far the most fun I have had in a new mmo in a good long while. There is enough familiar elements in GW2 to make it recognizable, and easy to pick up, but enough new stuff to give the game a new experience.
ANet has done the best job in recent memory of ensuring that first the game is fun and it's not WoW. Two things that many other mmos over the past seven years have failed to do.
OP...
Wow, if you think that SWTOR "bucked convention" then I really don't know what to say.
I would honestly consider GW2 to be fairly close to the WoW model in the great span of things. I think it's basically as much like WoW and WoW is like EQ.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I am going to lean out of the window a lot... given I had only the beta weekends to experience GW2, but IMVPO Guild Was 2 *might* be the best MMORPG that was *ever* made. Not flawless, as nothing is ever flawless. But very, very good designed in every aspect I have seen.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Myeah, the conclusions of Colin Johanson are pretty logical: subscription based games do want players to keep playing, therefore they bait them to continue playing with their game mechanics. Logical.
Except I don't agree that that must always result in tedious or long-winded repetitive activities (read: grind), as such things are often not the best way to keep customers in the first place imo (look at TOR: endgame got super repetitive in the period of 1.2 - 1.3 = people left).
The question begs the mind as well: if subscription games, which make money through keeping players longer, automatically end up shaping up gameplay to suit their payment model, how does that reflect on GW2, where ArenaNet makes money through the initial sale and the Gemstore: will they start to point more and more ingame activities toward that as well?
Now, before you jump me, I'm not saying they will, I'm not saying that I don't believe that GW2 won't do great things in terms of fun, as in the article. But the conclusions that Colin Johanson draws in favor of his own game might not have been thought through completely from both sides of the coin.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
You ask what they have changed. The list is actual very very long. Start here
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/view/forums/thread/336987/The-Tao-of-Arenanet.html
I believe Guild Wars 2 is a fun game, but as an MMORPG, it misses the mark.
I remember how when I first played EverQuest, I didn't buy another video game for nearly an entire year, and I didn't want to. EverQuest kept me so captivated that it sucked away all my video game playing time. MMORPGs are supposed to be long-term commitments where you can live out a second life in a virtual world, not multiplayer versions of Dragon Age or Skyrim where you can play for a couple hours a day until you reach the end then quit until the next DLC is released.
I've played my fair share of GW2, and I don't see it as any real evolution in game mechanics. I see it as a shallow game that lacks any real sense of character progression. The dynamic events are little else than WAR's PvE progression with the quest grind stripped away. The public quests in GW2 are mindless fun, but beyond that, they are repetitive and simplistic. Character progression feels gutted. You get 75% of the skills that make your class unique at nearly level 2, and because of level scaling, you never really feel any more powerful at level 15 than at level 5. This combined with the limited number of hotkey abilities and the emphasis on constant movement makes my character feels more like a hero from League of Legends than a character in an MMORPG.
Working for something is very rewarding for most people. Feeling like you've earned something is a lot better than having it handed to you. Work can be fun, work can be boring as crap. When the work is fun and rewarding it brings a sense of accomplishment and makes you happy. I think thats what the op is saying in other words. I think many people in this thread saw the word grind and didnt take the time to actually read what was written. Working towards something is the basis of MMO's in my opinion. Enjoying working towards something while making genuine, respectful connections with other players is what makes a truly great MMO in my opinion. Vanilla WoW 40 mans is a great PVE example of this and 2-3 hour BG's is a great PVP example of this. All opinion, just in case the "for you" nazi is around.
Finally! Someone who gets what I'm trying to say.
Jebus.. I'm an engineer not a fuckin writer.
Anyway...
/thread
Life of an MMORPG "addict"
For 7 years, proving that if you quote "fuck" you won't get banned.
GW2 is certainly doing this.
I agree with your point about SWTOR - they introduced cut scenes.. which really didn't work in the MMO genre.. but you need to justify why you made this thread. What makes you think GW2 is bucking the trend for the sake of it? From what I see GW2 is making major changes to the genre that are long overdue! This is not a one-trick pony like SWTOR.. they have literally re-thought all the major aspects of an MMO.
To be fair, he never offered any explanation of what he meant by grind in the original post. People are justified to jump on him for his comment. That he meant something different is his fault not theirs.
Edit: that said, on further consideration, I don't think people misunderstood what was said.. grind could be made more fun.. it still is not necessary.
I don't want to live out a second life in a virtual world, I just want to have fun.
There is nothing in the term 'MMORPG' that defines it that way.
What you're saying is that's what you like and expect out of an MMORPG.
That's fine, I can respect that opinion. YOu know what you like, good for you. On the other hand, can't you give other people credit that maybe... JUST maybe.... we know what we like out of an MMORPG too?
... and before you pull out the 'GW2 fans don't give me any credit', well. Do you want to be one of THOSE people? Is that how it works? You pick the worst member of a community, and then act as closely like them as possible? That seems like a horrible way to pattern your life.
You like what you like, other people like what we like.
An MMORPG is required to be massively multiplayer (check), online (Double check), and be an RPG. Let's see... I see stats, some progression, all the general conventions of a CRPG... yup, good to go!
GW2 is an MMORPG, it's just maybe not the sort you want.
They have broken with tank-spank basi routines used by 99% of MMOs.
They have broken with the 'mission hub' mentality.
They are a true MMO without subscriptions, with Triple A production.
They provide different flavors of PvP, depending on your style.
Separately, these are one thing. Under the same hood, they make for a great title.
Thus, they changed many MMO dogmas.
1. They dont use trinity i know. And what is then left? Yes the zerg mentality. Tactics out the window lets all just aoe till their dead.2. No mission hub true. But its still the boring quests of kill 20 bandits, gather 10 Wood, explode 10 tree stumps. So nothing new here.
3. Yes no sub. But like any company they ll milk the customers. Great example mystery boxes. Wheres the keys ohh yes in the cash shop. + an expansion every 6 months costing another 60 bucks
4. So does wow. Wow pvp takes more skill though
5. So no gw2 hasnt invented anything new. Just wrapped it a bit differently
What you want isn't an MMORPG.
There's a difference in revolutionizing the genre and completely going against every design decision that makes MMORPGs what they are. The forerunners, Meridian 59, UO, and EverQuest, defined the genre and WoW revolutionized the genre. In WoW, did it take months to gain a couple levels? Did the game ever require players to camp a mob for 3 days straight? Did raiding require 100 people, and were only the top 10% of the playerbase ever able to complete said raids?
The answer to all of those quests is "no," but WoW still gave players long-term goals and plenty of reason to spend a lot of time logged into the world of Azeroth. If you want a quick fix of GW2 a couple weeks a month, I couldn't care less; but GW2 isn't really much of an MMO. It doesn't offer a monthly fee because players aren't expected to play GW2 exclusively for months at a time. This would be fine, but unlike their attitude with GW1, Anet seems hell-bent on convincing everyone that GW2 is an MMORPG.
It's not /thread until you've reached an unassailable position. Sorry, not there yet!
Also, if you want a grind, let me point you at GW1, which has some truly brutal (optional) grinds for those people who really want a grind.
I'm sure there will be nearly unachievable things in GW2 for you to try and do.
There isn't a single type of grind that is mandatory for an MMORPG though, no matter how much you may personally enjoy it.
There's long term goals in GW2 as well. They're just all optional, nothing you need to do to remain competitive or hang out and try things with your friends.
Are you going to argue that the definition of MMORPG is a mandatory unending grind?
Which one of the letters is that again? Is that what the second M is? That letter always confuses me.
That's like saying that having a sword and magic is mandatory for an MMORPG because D&D, the forerunner of RPGs used them, and because Meridian 59, UO, Everquest and WoW all had them.
Also, you're misunderstanding GW2. They're not designing it so it's impossible to spend long amounts of times in GW2... there's plenty of content there, plenty of reasons to play. They're designing it so it isn't a REQUIREMENT.
In older MMORPGs, you're usually gimped compared to other people unles you pump a lot of time (And therefore subscription money) into it.
Also, you have to realize that MOST MMORPGs (Even the almighty WoW) don't have most of their players playing with the singleminded intensity that games like EQ and UO were doing.
Does that mean that for the majority of players, there are no MMORPGs? Even UO or Everquest fails to hold the interest of most people who might try it. Are they no longer MMORPGs?
If I play GW2 for a long time, months and months, is it an MMORPG for me, and not for you?
That seems like a shoddy way to define MMORPG. Why don't we go with what it literally means? Let's be honest. MMORPGs simply aren't holding people like they used to, in large part because of the huge breadth of choice nowadays. SWTOR, RIFT, TERA... whatever, all those games, people play for a month or two.... get bored, move on.
GW2 is just a game that acknowledges the truth of that, and has a payment plan that makes it convenient for such people to come back.
(edit: If you're willing to acknowledge that every MMORPG released since WoW is also not an MMORPG because they have been generally unable to hold players as long, I might be willing to go along with you, just because that's a hilarious argument)
I agree to a point. I dont think the grind has to be specific to gear, crafting and achievements. I do think role playing games require "work" aka "grind" to be rewarding. I agreed with the spirit of his post and didnt get caught up in the semantics.
I'll pass on Swtor honestly i don't think it's worth the pain to talk about it. Yes mmo company are a bit arrogant, i have to agree, but well.
I think you confuse progression with grind, and repetition, those 3 are totally different. Grinding is making something very repetitive like grinding seeds with a mortar. Some game like Lineage2 are about grinding, in fact i'm pretty sure the word grind came at this moment of mmo history (the reason of the 2k, 2.5k point i made), those games are about killing the same lame mob a million time with the same rotation. I don't think UO was even remotely about that, in fact grinding and camping would get you killed fast pre trammel; combat was a lot more dynamic just like GW2 is today, and many other things. You could grind in UO like people did in later games (some used bots), but that was a specific choice from you, not something imposed as the only game style, and most skill really had short progressions, they were no gear grind at all nada...
You can have a progression without grind, and repetition can be varied. Everyone who type use the same 20+ letter, it doesn't mean we type like retards the same sequence of letter over and over again, and it doesn't stop you from giving a meaning to your message even though you use only 26 letters. So there is a real distinction here between repetition of something, grinding the same sequence to death, and having a progression, you just can't mix and take them as equal because they use a common source. I think you are just mistaken if you do that.
I'm going to say this here, and I'll only say it once:
There IS a gear grind....
HOWEVER: it is for attractive gear, not BiS gear.
Is that satisfactory? Is farming and grinding for statistical advantages on gear that doesn't match an/or looks terrible REALLY that important to you?
I (and I don't believe I am alone) would MUCH rather "farm" (they've pretty much eliminated farming in this game) for gear that is totally B.A. and doesn't unbalance PvP or PvE by making my character have more stats than someone else's than farm for gear that is mismatched, but gives me an advantage over other players.
That's the point most of the people here are stating incorrectly (or how I interpereted it).
TL;DR: Is there grind? Sorta, but not like other games.
Just think of the pleasures of building alts without a gear grind ...Necro today warrior tomorrow and saving myself and better half $30 on sub fee's per month to boot
I'm curious as to what made you interested in GW2 to begin with.
Everything you've just said indicates that you don't want a new / different kind of MMO. You want a very very old kind of MMO, with newer graphics. There's nothing wrong with that. However, just because games have been designed a certain way in the past, does not make them good designs / mechanics. Even if you enjoyed them. There's quite a few games I've played, where I enjoyed certain design mechanics, but also realized that they weren't good design, and would probably not get repeated in future games.
For example, I used to enjoy monster camping in older MMOs. Grabbing friends, searching for a good spot w/ a lot of monsters, and basically just kill grinding for exp. I would absolutely hate doing that now. It's not good design, it's basically an artifact from older games, with less evolved technology.
Also, a lot of the criticisms you are making have already been talked about in depth. It's become aparent that some people are basically trying to play GW2 like an older MMO (essentially treating it like an older game), and then assuming that it's no different. If you haven't seen these, here's a number of videos that highlight how wrong this is:
Dynamic Events Consequences
How Dynamic Events actually work
Combat Complexity
Game Content / Where is the progression?
Basically, there is a mindblowingly large amount of depth & content in the game. However, unlike older MMOs, it doesn't force players to experience it in any 1 particular way. You are free to experience it how you wish, but if you capitalize on that freedom, there is an overwhelming amount of things to do. If you are looking for that heavily guided, time-sink heavy way of providing content that older MMOs have, then you are kind of missing the point of GW2, and missing out on a rare opportunity as well.
It's a lot like moving to a large new city. If you are proactive enough to go out and explore, you can find that there are generally some pretty amazing things to find, that you never knew existed. If you don't, and just sit at home / don't try and do things any differently, it will seem like it's just really all the same old boring crap.