The fact that you keep getting exp at level 80 to unlock skill points and that skills points can be used to get interesting (or even rare) from the Mystic Forge made me happy. I love horizontal advancement in MMOs like Rifts planar attunement for example.
Their whole philosophy with this game is that as a game, in it's complete form is that it should be fun enough to sustain players on it's own without needing to break content types apart too much. This in theory would be the ideal game because it puts everyone on relatively equal grounds from bottom end to top end with very little disconnection between the two. I do see a few major flaws with this philosophy, though such as it's just unrealistic and honestly pretty arrogant to assume that their game is just so awesome and eternally fun that it's going to satisfy and sustain everyone so much that so many people will always be around in order to play the game as it seems they've designed it forever without actually going back and making it more like the old MMO method in the long run. I'm not saying it won't work, and that they won't be right on the money because like I said earlier, ideally this is how you would design an MMO, it's ballsy of them to attempt to break the mold in this way but many games try to break the mold in 1 way or another and then fall flat on their faces. They better have back up plans A-Z, which I'm sure they do and we can just hope that any level of arrogance they're exhibiting with this game is well founded.
Their whole philosophy with this game is that as a game, in it's complete form is that it should be fun enough to sustain players on it's own without needing to break content types apart too much. This in theory would be the ideal game because it puts everyone on relatively equal grounds from bottom end to top end with very little disconnection between the two. I do see a few major flaws with this philosophy, though such as it's just unrealistic and honestly pretty arrogant to assume that their game is just so awesome and eternally fun that it's going to satisfy and sustain everyone so much that so many people will always be around in order to play the game as it seems they've designed it forever without actually going back and making it more like the old MMO method in the long run. I'm not saying it won't work, and that they won't be right on the money because like I said earlier, ideally this is how you would design an MMO, it's ballsy of them to attempt to break the mold in this way but many games try to break the mold in 1 way or another and then fall flat on their faces. They better have back up plans A-Z, which I'm sure they do and we can just hope that any level of arrogance they're exhibiting with this game is well founded.
Interesting points, but it's the bolded part that shows why those other MMOs fall flat on their faces. They try to change one thing or another. GW2 has taken the whole paradigm, shattered it with a hammer, picked up the pieces they like, added a whole slew of fresh ingredients, added a little ice, shook it a few times and poured everyone something new and refreshing.
Their whole philosophy with this game is that as a game, in it's complete form is that it should be fun enough to sustain players on it's own without needing to break content types apart too much. This in theory would be the ideal game because it puts everyone on relatively equal grounds from bottom end to top end with very little disconnection between the two. I do see a few major flaws with this philosophy, though such as it's just unrealistic and honestly pretty arrogant to assume that their game is just so awesome and eternally fun that it's going to satisfy and sustain everyone so much that so many people will always be around in order to play the game as it seems they've designed it forever without actually going back and making it more like the old MMO method in the long run. I'm not saying it won't work, and that they won't be right on the money because like I said earlier, ideally this is how you would design an MMO, it's ballsy of them to attempt to break the mold in this way but many games try to break the mold in 1 way or another and then fall flat on their faces. They better have back up plans A-Z, which I'm sure they do and we can just hope that any level of arrogance they're exhibiting with this game is well founded.
And is there a game/type of content that holds people (most fo them) eternally?
Backup for low population on low level areas - server guesting, DE swaping (this allows to put in events with more NPCs and remove those that require too many players), alts, possibly AI companions (Ai companions were something that were at 1 point i the game and GW1 has henchmen and heroes).
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Well, it is kinda too early to talk about end-game right now. They have given us some info, but more maybe hidden. Anet has, so far, given us many surprises and their philosophy of '' we won´t talk about things we aren´t done with '' just make the whole thing harder. We won´t be able to rate the end-game until we reach the last lvls. However, we have some clues, especially that we already know the philosophy of Anet '' We are making a game that is fun, not time consuming ''. As we have already see, in many other games, the hardcore-style is actually the case in the most games. WoW made this end-game style popular and the clowns just followed this ideal, making the whole genre and its fans hardcore, it is the way to keep people playing. Anet could have taken this way and just change the B2P to P2P and: Oh, we have another game now with another style that may attrackt millions, and in just few months/years u will see GW2 with 2-5m subs having great time. The is what games used to be and GW2 and its content has the ability to attract people more than any game to sub to it. That if Anet makes some changes to the mechanics to keep people playing. However, there is a high risk with this model nowadays, why ? Well, the genre is begining to change and choosing the path of hardcore may destory everything if the whole model becomes out-dated in 1-2 years. New games are coming everyday, and these games, like GW2 and TSW, are begining to be more and more different which is great. I have seen many people who were sad about the end-game of GW2 because there is no hardcore, however many more others have been more than happy. The simple facts is: After WoW´s-generation, people are begining to be really tired of the hardcore- model where u have to grind or basically follow a quest-based gameplay to just reach that amazing end-game. When reaching it, oh it is time to go and kill mobs again nd again through raids to fix that extra gear that will make you '' best ''. Well, in the most games, gear is the main thing of the concept. You go and do raids for months to fix the best gear to be best in PvP, and later u will find out that the company has add better gear, oh, it is time to go and do it again. This is kinda what´s happening in WoW and its clones, it is like a job, not a game to have fun.
Anet is trying now to kinda change this with their new philosophy. They have created a really great game, and are kinda trying to do a nice end-game. Really great ideas so far and there´s much more at the end of GW2 than most other MMOs. However it is kinda less time-consuming and is more for fun than being best. Games are made for fun, not as a job. Some people may say, well but it is really great when you get gear. It is hard but when you get it, u feel so happy and we want to play to reach that feeling. Well, you can actually rach that feeling in GW2. People around the globe are talking about how great GW2 because it doesn´t care about the gear at all. However, it is kinda not that 100% right. The gear is also really important but not, what people are used to. In the most games out in the market nowadays, without the gear, u can´t do anything. These who are hardcore are basiaclly with better gear and u CAN´T win them. In GW2 there is also gear, and u can´t really go to lvl 80 with ur lvl 1 gear nd hope to be good. You have to work to make better gear and to be stronger. Also the different colors/lvls of the gear are also important, maybe not as much as in other games but still. I mean, people with better gear lvl and color have better chances to win, this is a fact. However, other people who don´t use their time on this stuff are still in the game and can also compete effectively. This is the different, between this games and others. U still have the chance, but with better gear and skill u have better chances. The same for end-game, what u do with these extra skill-points after reaching lvl 80 can also make u stronger in different ways, however other people cans till compete. The philosophy s basiaclly that everyone can have fun and everyone can enjoy the game in thier special way, some choose the hardcore path and some the casual path and other take the patch in the middle. It is u choice. In other games u waste weeks, months and years to be able to compete in PvP and the fun, here u can compete from the start and in different ways.
Remember, Anet are still willing to hear what ppl think, they maybe don´t take subs, but they need people and game-population that can follow Anet with thier next step which is the next expansion. They will listen and maybe change much. However, don´t await to change the game to another WoW clone in GW2 skin by taking the hardcore path to keep players.
This end-game is great for me, they have done kinda differently, however, I think that they can do more. Not hardcore or something, but the end-game can be the ability to '' build your own mini-world '' .. yeah, after fighting it is always great to re-buid ur life and if Anet can make this feature a reality, GW2 may turn out to be the MMORPG, that old ppl like, were waiting for. A reall MMORPG with a real, breathing world.
You have the right to your oinion, of course, but i don't see Orr doing it for me. It sounds and probably will be great, not saying the opposite, but from what Anet said about other DE in lower areas and what i saw in te actual game, i don't expect more than agiant loop all over again, only longer.
Also, Volkon meantions pvp, as in probably WVW, but i don't see that lasting either for me. It's too small. Still better than other themepark "large" scale pvp, like TSW (which i even like more than GW2) but not big enough.
If we use the term "endgame" as in a feature or content that you keep playing for a longer period of time,GW2 doesn't have it. But again, that's just me.
Exactly what kind of content is that?
What games have it?
Very true. Every mmorpg needs updates to stay fresh and i'm sorry if i didn't come off as saying that. The problem lies in the size and scale of WVW and Orr. Let my use examples.
WVW compared to a real large scale, territory controll pvp: In the later, the battle zones are so big, that there are sub zones and tons of controll points. The pure landmass is expansive enough so that you can't take controll of all of it in 1 or 2 hours gameplay session. The map is simply too big. So what happens is that, you an your team, decide to take only a few points that will cascade out for the rest of the faction. Taking controll of all the areas will require days if not weeks and even maybe months. This is like Planetisde 2.
WVW on the other hand is made of 2 maps (not counting copy pasted Boarderlands) that are disconnected from each other. The size of each map in itself is also medium IMHO. In a 1, 2 hour session, i can enter the map and with my team take controll of all the keeps. And that's the Eternal Battlegrounds, the Boarderlands are even worse. That's not terriotry controll to me. That's merry-go-round pvp and. Enter the area, take ove most keeps, leave. No cascade elemets, nothing.
Orr compared to a more sandboxy title (not a ffa owpvp sandbox, ok?). Juts like in WVW, there's 3 (not 2 rihgt?) areas for Orr that are disconnected from each other. The dynamic events in eahc zone is like a self-contaided storm of war. There's no consequences beyond them. Not to meantion the loop of events over and over. Ok, i understand it's more complex there than in other areas, which is cool, but it's just another loop. I take over a tower, and sooner of latter, the same exact event will take over for the enemy and rinse and repeat.
Now imagine a sandbox game (no pvp) with player driven economy, politics, player created villages, etc, etc. there are events here, however, when an event in battle is lost, it creates a negative effect on the entire playerbase. If nobody stops it, there will be no resources, destroyed economy, less areas to explore. The whole map is controlled by the mob AI. See, a cascade warfare that branching everywhere. (it's just an idea for the sake of examples ok?)
TL,DR: WVW and Orr are, and sound, awesome, not syaing it's not. And i'm pretty sure that it'll be fun for a while. However, in the end, they're just medium sized areas where the "war" is a self contained "storm" that doesn't go and branch beyond that, making meaningless after a few fun battles. Also, remember, this is simply how i feel. Other will disagree and that's fine
I hope this explain everything. Sorry, for the long post
I think the endgame of guildwars 2 will really be good for the players that like to play games and not just rush through all the content and get to the end and keep going forward and never looking back.
I think the endgame of guildwars 2 will really be good for the players that like to play games and not just rush through all the content and get to the end and keep going forward and never looking back.
It's Anet's core philosophy that the game you play at "end-game" shouldn't be any different than the game you've been playing 1-80, I'm glad they've stuck to that.
Seems like the Orr stuff is just the same on a much larger, grander scale.
I do also love the continued character progression via skill points and purchasing cosmetic gear etc.
The possibility for housing to be added would play very well into the currently released info on "end-game" as being able to display your armor sets and legendary weapons etc. in your house would be awesome.
It's exactly the kind of thing Anet seems to be doing - focus on collecting and acheivement and visual flare instead of tiered stat progression.
The possibility for housing to be added would play very well into the currently released info on "end-game" as being able to display your armor sets and legendary weapons etc. in your house would be awesome.
It's exactly the kind of thing Anet seems to be doing - focus on collecting and acheivement and visual flare instead of tiered stat progression.
Fits perfectly into their schema.
Right, which would solve one of the gripes I have right now about the game.
Where the hell am I going to put all of this cosmetic gear that I get? The bank certainly isn't large enough to house more than maybe an extra set or two... for 1 character.
We need a place to put it. Housing would be a great solution for that and it's one of the main reasons I think it's going to be in sooner than later.
Like others have stated, it is hard to tell until the game actually launches and well experience this content, but to be honest when I listened to this information from the video, I am now actually worried about the end game pull for myself.
It is a very different approach to end game, while it is very appealing to some, others see it as nothing to really strive for, and they want that "more powerful gear". This is honestly what I am use to from all my years of WoW and other various MMOs,
At the same time, I am looking forward to something new though, so I do hope it keeps me involved at the later levels, but I guess only time will tell at this point.
I thoroughly enjoy GW2 fanbois. Somehow, dungeons and PvP in GW2 are automatically more fun than other themeparks because you don't get any gear. LOL
And for some magic reason, running the same dungone multiple times in GW2 for cosmetic gear isn't a grind or treadmill, it's only a grind if you get gear that actually improves your stats.
I thoroughly enjoy your post because it contadicts itself.
Also, in your last little part, you fail to understand the conceptual difference between an optional gear grind to look better and a required gear grind to experience content.
You get gear in dungeons, just so you know. Or at the very least, tokens to buy gear with. It just plateaus at level 80. At that point, you are looking for gear that fits your build correctly either through crafting/dungeons/etc. And after you get a solid set of that, you can start looking for things that look appealing to you and transfer stats to that gear. This last part is not required.
I thoroughly enjoy GW2 fanbois. Somehow, dungeons and PvP in GW2 are automatically more fun than other themeparks because you don't get any gear. LOL
And for some magic reason, running the same dungeon multiple times in GW2 for cosmetic gear isn't a grind or treadmill, it's only a grind if you get gear that actually improves your stats.
Welcome to reality. You must be new here. The dungeons and PvP are more fun because of how they're implemented, the combat system, lack of the trinity, etc. (Of course, that's opinion.) The reason the dungeons are less grindy is simple... first, they're optional. You don't need to run them to progress your character if you don't wish. Every time you're successful there's no hoping you get a drop you need then hoping you win the roll. You succeed, you're rewarded. Simple. Gods, how many times has my marksman hunter in WoW lost a roll to a ret pally on a crit trinket... (that was pre-Cataclysm). So you have a choice... run an instance repeatedly, relying on a couple RNG chances to hopefully get a piece of better stat gear you're convinced you need to progress, or run one as many or few times as you wish to get gear that looks the way you like, or simply for the enjoyable content.
I also lol at the lol' of those that cannot comprehend 'different'. Gw2 raiding must mean repeating the same set of bosses for x number of hours every week for 6 months clearly.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
The skill points and legendary weapons thing has pretty much single-handedly appeased any qualms I may have had about the direction Anet were taking this game in.
Mind you, I still don't agree with the lack of raids etc, if they're so fussed about people being able to do what they want, what about those of us that actually enjoy big group dungeon content? I know I do, I adored WoW raiding before they put the player cap down, and even after that it was still more enjoyable than standard dungeons.
I'm also not particularly fond of the lack of stat boosts at endgame, I don't want the differences to be night and day, but it would be nice for say, a legendary weapon to have at least a SLIGHT advantage. Fortunately for them that greatsword sounds enough for me to be happy enough with just from the appearance alone, but I would have liked at least a MINOR stat boost, like, 10 extra damage or something ridiculously minor like that, just so it doesn't just feel like a skinned version of a weapon everyone has.
Either way, I really like what has been said in the video, I was genuinely worried before, with the way they used to go on about how nothing would be a timesink etc etc etc, but now they actually have SOME form of big goal at level 80 in the form of skill points, I feel much better about this game.
Now just to wait for beta so I can actually get to experience how it plays.
My answer is, I don't know. And I don't get why there is even people posting about it. There are tons of topics on this already, and it is just going to turn into people saying "GW2 has no end game" and what not.
From the interview, I am excited and it sounds like fun. But I have no idea if it is going to be fun or how it will play out. I will cross that path when I get there sometime after launch. When I stop enjoying myself, I will stop playing. No need to decide now before I have even played 90% of what the game has to offer content wise. And not only "not played", but not even seen in videos. There is so much hidden from us right now, it is going to be quite an adventure.
The possibility for housing to be added would play very well into the currently released info on "end-game" as being able to display your armor sets and legendary weapons etc. in your house would be awesome.
It's exactly the kind of thing Anet seems to be doing - focus on collecting and acheivement and visual flare instead of tiered stat progression.
Fits perfectly into their schema.
Right, which would solve one of the gripes I have right now about the game.
Where the hell am I going to put all of this cosmetic gear that I get? The bank certainly isn't large enough to house more than maybe an extra set or two... for 1 character.
We need a place to put it. Housing would be a great solution for that and it's one of the main reasons I think it's going to be in sooner than later.
I personally think that will be one of the first updates after release. They already have the areas designated where housing would be, it's just a matter of implementing the homes for each player. I bet they already have it planned out and maybe even close to finished (I'm just guessing here).
But, considering how much thought and foresight Anet seems to put into this game, I'm pretty sure they've realized that "trophy" storage without housing is going to be a big problem.
Besides, they have HOM rewards like housecats. Where are you going to put a housecat besides in a house?
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
I thoroughly enjoy GW2 fanbois. Somehow, dungeons and PvP in GW2 are automatically more fun than other themeparks because you don't get any gear. LOL
And for some magic reason, running the same dungeon multiple times in GW2 for cosmetic gear isn't a grind or treadmill, it's only a grind if you get gear that actually improves your stats.
Welcome to reality. You must be new here. The dungeons and PvP are more fun because of how they're implemented, the combat system, lack of the trinity, etc. (Of course, that's opinion.) The reason the dungeons are less grindy is simple... first, they're optional. You don't need to run them to progress your character if you don't wish. Every time you're successful there's no hoping you get a drop you need then hoping you win the roll. You succeed, you're rewarded. Simple. Gods, how many times has my marksman hunter in WoW lost a roll to a ret pally on a crit trinket... (that was pre-Cataclysm). So you have a choice... run an instance repeatedly, relying on a couple RNG chances to hopefully get a piece of better stat gear you're convinced you need to progress, or run one as many or few times as you wish to get gear that looks the way you like, or simply for the enjoyable content.
But you can simply enjoy the content in any game, no one's forcing you to run dungeons for gear. If you want to hit level cap and explore the world in say WoW or Rift, have at it. My point is that the GW2 fans continue to equate games with gear progression as not being fun and only being treadmills. This makes me laugh because GW2 will have players running the same dungeons over and over or participating in PvP the same way traditional themeparks do but with little in terms of rewards or progression.
The downscaling in level when revisiting lower than your current level zones alone already means for me more end game content than other games have to offer where indeed there's typically only some repeatables and the latest instance cluster to do at end game and all previous content is made obsolete either by severely outlevelling it and nobody playing it anymore or by gear progression (previous instance cluster so piss easy that it's not even remotely fun).
Multiple types of content for everyone....now do we have the problem that there are too many choices? j/k
Personally I'm thrilled with what I've heard about end game. I don't raid now, I don't have the time. I don't PvP much at all, it makes me crazy (I take it way too personal). Putting a major portion of PVE end game into the open world is fantastic as it opens it up to everyone. Now do I stick to my guns and keep my vow to take my time, or hurry up to see Orr?
But you can simply enjoy the content in any game, no one's forcing you to run dungeons for gear. If you want to hit level cap and explore the world in say WoW or Rift, have at it. My point is that the GW2 fans continue to equate games with gear progression as not being fun and only being treadmills. This makes me laugh because GW2 will have players running the same dungeons over and over or participating in PvP the same way traditional themeparks do but with little in terms of rewards or progression.
There are rewards and progression. There is nothing to explore at "end game" in WoW or RIFT. As it is pointless. Sure you can go back and roll lower level zones on your 50 but it isn't challenging what so ever. I have done it, and it is boring and easy. Just like the raiding and dungeongs after the first couple runs.
At level 80 in GW2, you have access to all the content in the game (including lower level areas) all which give you rewards, loot and experience. This is easily over 10 times the content WoW or RIFT could ever dream of opening up to max level characters.
Your (and most people's) problem is you think treadmilling on trivial content that you have already completed X times is "fun". When all you are really actually doing is chasing some gear carrot on a stick. You are losing the ability to have fun, and are turning into a mindless gear grinding robot.
To each their own, but I think it is too early to tell for GW2. I am going to play it, and enjoy myself. When that is done, I will stop playing it. As I have done with every other game ever released ... I am 100% certain GW2 will be a better values and hold my attention longer than WoW, RIFT or SWTOR. These games are so damn easy, I find it funny that people love it so much.
But you can simply enjoy the content in any game, no one's forcing you to run dungeons for gear. If you want to hit level cap and explore the world in say WoW or Rift, have at it. My point is that the GW2 fans continue to equate games with gear progression as not being fun and only being treadmills. This makes me laugh because GW2 will have players running the same dungeons over and over or participating in PvP the same way traditional themeparks do but with little in terms of rewards or progression.
Some players will grind dungeons for a cosmetic piece or set. Some players won't. It's optional. And the amount of power your character enjoys will not be affected by that choice.
The players that are saying there is not a grind, and are happy with that, are likely the same players that won't be running the same dungeons over and over again. To lump all "fans" of the game in that single pile is... well I guess it's a way you get our laughs.
The possibility for housing to be added would play very well into the currently released info on "end-game" as being able to display your armor sets and legendary weapons etc. in your house would be awesome.
It's exactly the kind of thing Anet seems to be doing - focus on collecting and acheivement and visual flare instead of tiered stat progression.
Fits perfectly into their schema.
Right, which would solve one of the gripes I have right now about the game.
Where the hell am I going to put all of this cosmetic gear that I get? The bank certainly isn't large enough to house more than maybe an extra set or two... for 1 character.
We need a place to put it. Housing would be a great solution for that and it's one of the main reasons I think it's going to be in sooner than later.
I personally think that will be one of the first updates after release. They already have the areas designated where housing would be, it's just a matter of implementing the homes for each player. I bet they already have it planned out and maybe even close to finished (I'm just guessing here).
But, considering how much thought and foresight Anet seems to put into this game, I'm pretty sure they've realized that "trophy" storage without housing is going to be a big problem.
Besides, they have HOM rewards like housecats. Where are you going to put a housecat besides in a house?
I do think they made the right decision to move housing to an expansion though. I want Arena Net to do it right and not just slap down some instanced apartments.
But you can simply enjoy the content in any game, no one's forcing you to run dungeons for gear. If you want to hit level cap and explore the world in say WoW or Rift, have at it. My point is that the GW2 fans continue to equate games with gear progression as not being fun and only being treadmills. This makes me laugh because GW2 will have players running the same dungeons over and over or participating in PvP the same way traditional themeparks do but with little in terms of rewards or progression.
Ah, see, therein lies the rub. You're giving the impression that rewards or progression can only be found in gaining more powerful gear. There are those of us that realize that this simply isn't true. Rewards and progression can be cosmetic and personally satisfying. Why should rewards and progression be tied simply to the latest raid instance to be released, especially since that raid by default obsoletes all prior content? Why should they be tied solely to a numbers game, even if by gaining those numbers you wind up in gear you're flat out not satisfied with the appearance of? (Yes, I'm looking at you, he who designed assorted WoW pally tier gear... grr...)
You have an extremely exclusive view of what rewards and progression are. This is why you cannot understand. EVERY single time I successfully run an explorable mode dungeon in GW2, regardless of the dungeon level, I get rewarded. By being cosmetic rewards, I get to pick and choose throughout the game what I alone want those rewards to be. Maybe that level 50 dungeon has a set I think looks amazing. You know what? At level 80, I can go back, run that dungeon while still finding it a challenge, get rewarded, get the gear and boost the stats on the gear to equate to level 80 gear and be fully satisfied with my accomplishment. How's it work in WoW again? Ah yes... I remember. What's this boss drop? Ooh, if he drops that, it calculates to a 13.2dps increase! Damn, didn't drop. Next boss... nothing I need. Next boss... ah, a trinket that increases my dps by 15.3! IT DROPPED! Damn, the ret pally won the roll. Better luck next week. Yeah... that's fun.
Comments
The fact that you keep getting exp at level 80 to unlock skill points and that skills points can be used to get interesting (or even rare) from the Mystic Forge made me happy. I love horizontal advancement in MMOs like Rifts planar attunement for example.
Their whole philosophy with this game is that as a game, in it's complete form is that it should be fun enough to sustain players on it's own without needing to break content types apart too much. This in theory would be the ideal game because it puts everyone on relatively equal grounds from bottom end to top end with very little disconnection between the two. I do see a few major flaws with this philosophy, though such as it's just unrealistic and honestly pretty arrogant to assume that their game is just so awesome and eternally fun that it's going to satisfy and sustain everyone so much that so many people will always be around in order to play the game as it seems they've designed it forever without actually going back and making it more like the old MMO method in the long run. I'm not saying it won't work, and that they won't be right on the money because like I said earlier, ideally this is how you would design an MMO, it's ballsy of them to attempt to break the mold in this way but many games try to break the mold in 1 way or another and then fall flat on their faces. They better have back up plans A-Z, which I'm sure they do and we can just hope that any level of arrogance they're exhibiting with this game is well founded.
Interesting points, but it's the bolded part that shows why those other MMOs fall flat on their faces. They try to change one thing or another. GW2 has taken the whole paradigm, shattered it with a hammer, picked up the pieces they like, added a whole slew of fresh ingredients, added a little ice, shook it a few times and poured everyone something new and refreshing.
Oderint, dum metuant.
And is there a game/type of content that holds people (most fo them) eternally?
Backup for low population on low level areas - server guesting, DE swaping (this allows to put in events with more NPCs and remove those that require too many players), alts, possibly AI companions (Ai companions were something that were at 1 point i the game and GW1 has henchmen and heroes).
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Well, it is kinda too early to talk about end-game right now. They have given us some info, but more maybe hidden. Anet has, so far, given us many surprises and their philosophy of '' we won´t talk about things we aren´t done with '' just make the whole thing harder. We won´t be able to rate the end-game until we reach the last lvls. However, we have some clues, especially that we already know the philosophy of Anet '' We are making a game that is fun, not time consuming ''. As we have already see, in many other games, the hardcore-style is actually the case in the most games. WoW made this end-game style popular and the clowns just followed this ideal, making the whole genre and its fans hardcore, it is the way to keep people playing. Anet could have taken this way and just change the B2P to P2P and: Oh, we have another game now with another style that may attrackt millions, and in just few months/years u will see GW2 with 2-5m subs having great time. The is what games used to be and GW2 and its content has the ability to attract people more than any game to sub to it. That if Anet makes some changes to the mechanics to keep people playing. However, there is a high risk with this model nowadays, why ? Well, the genre is begining to change and choosing the path of hardcore may destory everything if the whole model becomes out-dated in 1-2 years. New games are coming everyday, and these games, like GW2 and TSW, are begining to be more and more different which is great. I have seen many people who were sad about the end-game of GW2 because there is no hardcore, however many more others have been more than happy. The simple facts is: After WoW´s-generation, people are begining to be really tired of the hardcore- model where u have to grind or basically follow a quest-based gameplay to just reach that amazing end-game. When reaching it, oh it is time to go and kill mobs again nd again through raids to fix that extra gear that will make you '' best ''. Well, in the most games, gear is the main thing of the concept. You go and do raids for months to fix the best gear to be best in PvP, and later u will find out that the company has add better gear, oh, it is time to go and do it again. This is kinda what´s happening in WoW and its clones, it is like a job, not a game to have fun.
Anet is trying now to kinda change this with their new philosophy. They have created a really great game, and are kinda trying to do a nice end-game. Really great ideas so far and there´s much more at the end of GW2 than most other MMOs. However it is kinda less time-consuming and is more for fun than being best. Games are made for fun, not as a job. Some people may say, well but it is really great when you get gear. It is hard but when you get it, u feel so happy and we want to play to reach that feeling. Well, you can actually rach that feeling in GW2. People around the globe are talking about how great GW2 because it doesn´t care about the gear at all. However, it is kinda not that 100% right. The gear is also really important but not, what people are used to. In the most games out in the market nowadays, without the gear, u can´t do anything. These who are hardcore are basiaclly with better gear and u CAN´T win them. In GW2 there is also gear, and u can´t really go to lvl 80 with ur lvl 1 gear nd hope to be good. You have to work to make better gear and to be stronger. Also the different colors/lvls of the gear are also important, maybe not as much as in other games but still. I mean, people with better gear lvl and color have better chances to win, this is a fact. However, other people who don´t use their time on this stuff are still in the game and can also compete effectively. This is the different, between this games and others. U still have the chance, but with better gear and skill u have better chances. The same for end-game, what u do with these extra skill-points after reaching lvl 80 can also make u stronger in different ways, however other people cans till compete. The philosophy s basiaclly that everyone can have fun and everyone can enjoy the game in thier special way, some choose the hardcore path and some the casual path and other take the patch in the middle. It is u choice. In other games u waste weeks, months and years to be able to compete in PvP and the fun, here u can compete from the start and in different ways.
Remember, Anet are still willing to hear what ppl think, they maybe don´t take subs, but they need people and game-population that can follow Anet with thier next step which is the next expansion. They will listen and maybe change much. However, don´t await to change the game to another WoW clone in GW2 skin by taking the hardcore path to keep players.
This end-game is great for me, they have done kinda differently, however, I think that they can do more. Not hardcore or something, but the end-game can be the ability to '' build your own mini-world '' .. yeah, after fighting it is always great to re-buid ur life and if Anet can make this feature a reality, GW2 may turn out to be the MMORPG, that old ppl like, were waiting for. A reall MMORPG with a real, breathing world.
Very true. Every mmorpg needs updates to stay fresh and i'm sorry if i didn't come off as saying that. The problem lies in the size and scale of WVW and Orr. Let my use examples.
WVW compared to a real large scale, territory controll pvp: In the later, the battle zones are so big, that there are sub zones and tons of controll points. The pure landmass is expansive enough so that you can't take controll of all of it in 1 or 2 hours gameplay session. The map is simply too big. So what happens is that, you an your team, decide to take only a few points that will cascade out for the rest of the faction. Taking controll of all the areas will require days if not weeks and even maybe months. This is like Planetisde 2.
WVW on the other hand is made of 2 maps (not counting copy pasted Boarderlands) that are disconnected from each other. The size of each map in itself is also medium IMHO. In a 1, 2 hour session, i can enter the map and with my team take controll of all the keeps. And that's the Eternal Battlegrounds, the Boarderlands are even worse. That's not terriotry controll to me. That's merry-go-round pvp and. Enter the area, take ove most keeps, leave. No cascade elemets, nothing.
Orr compared to a more sandboxy title (not a ffa owpvp sandbox, ok?). Juts like in WVW, there's 3 (not 2 rihgt?) areas for Orr that are disconnected from each other. The dynamic events in eahc zone is like a self-contaided storm of war. There's no consequences beyond them. Not to meantion the loop of events over and over. Ok, i understand it's more complex there than in other areas, which is cool, but it's just another loop. I take over a tower, and sooner of latter, the same exact event will take over for the enemy and rinse and repeat.
Now imagine a sandbox game (no pvp) with player driven economy, politics, player created villages, etc, etc. there are events here, however, when an event in battle is lost, it creates a negative effect on the entire playerbase. If nobody stops it, there will be no resources, destroyed economy, less areas to explore. The whole map is controlled by the mob AI. See, a cascade warfare that branching everywhere. (it's just an idea for the sake of examples ok?)
TL,DR: WVW and Orr are, and sound, awesome, not syaing it's not. And i'm pretty sure that it'll be fun for a while. However, in the end, they're just medium sized areas where the "war" is a self contained "storm" that doesn't go and branch beyond that, making meaningless after a few fun battles. Also, remember, this is simply how i feel. Other will disagree and that's fine
I hope this explain everything. Sorry, for the long post
I think the endgame of guildwars 2 will really be good for the players that like to play games and not just rush through all the content and get to the end and keep going forward and never looking back.
Will be happy to see comments on my '' long post '' above. Will be really nice to go into the point and see the situation from different views.
It's Anet's core philosophy that the game you play at "end-game" shouldn't be any different than the game you've been playing 1-80, I'm glad they've stuck to that.
Seems like the Orr stuff is just the same on a much larger, grander scale.
I do also love the continued character progression via skill points and purchasing cosmetic gear etc.
The possibility for housing to be added would play very well into the currently released info on "end-game" as being able to display your armor sets and legendary weapons etc. in your house would be awesome.
It's exactly the kind of thing Anet seems to be doing - focus on collecting and acheivement and visual flare instead of tiered stat progression.
Fits perfectly into their schema.
Right, which would solve one of the gripes I have right now about the game.
Where the hell am I going to put all of this cosmetic gear that I get? The bank certainly isn't large enough to house more than maybe an extra set or two... for 1 character.
We need a place to put it. Housing would be a great solution for that and it's one of the main reasons I think it's going to be in sooner than later.
Like others have stated, it is hard to tell until the game actually launches and well experience this content, but to be honest when I listened to this information from the video, I am now actually worried about the end game pull for myself.
It is a very different approach to end game, while it is very appealing to some, others see it as nothing to really strive for, and they want that "more powerful gear". This is honestly what I am use to from all my years of WoW and other various MMOs,
At the same time, I am looking forward to something new though, so I do hope it keeps me involved at the later levels, but I guess only time will tell at this point.
I thoroughly enjoy your post because it contadicts itself.
Also, in your last little part, you fail to understand the conceptual difference between an optional gear grind to look better and a required gear grind to experience content.
You get gear in dungeons, just so you know. Or at the very least, tokens to buy gear with. It just plateaus at level 80. At that point, you are looking for gear that fits your build correctly either through crafting/dungeons/etc. And after you get a solid set of that, you can start looking for things that look appealing to you and transfer stats to that gear. This last part is not required.
Welcome to reality. You must be new here. The dungeons and PvP are more fun because of how they're implemented, the combat system, lack of the trinity, etc. (Of course, that's opinion.) The reason the dungeons are less grindy is simple... first, they're optional. You don't need to run them to progress your character if you don't wish. Every time you're successful there's no hoping you get a drop you need then hoping you win the roll. You succeed, you're rewarded. Simple. Gods, how many times has my marksman hunter in WoW lost a roll to a ret pally on a crit trinket... (that was pre-Cataclysm). So you have a choice... run an instance repeatedly, relying on a couple RNG chances to hopefully get a piece of better stat gear you're convinced you need to progress, or run one as many or few times as you wish to get gear that looks the way you like, or simply for the enjoyable content.
Oderint, dum metuant.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
The skill points and legendary weapons thing has pretty much single-handedly appeased any qualms I may have had about the direction Anet were taking this game in.
Mind you, I still don't agree with the lack of raids etc, if they're so fussed about people being able to do what they want, what about those of us that actually enjoy big group dungeon content? I know I do, I adored WoW raiding before they put the player cap down, and even after that it was still more enjoyable than standard dungeons.
I'm also not particularly fond of the lack of stat boosts at endgame, I don't want the differences to be night and day, but it would be nice for say, a legendary weapon to have at least a SLIGHT advantage. Fortunately for them that greatsword sounds enough for me to be happy enough with just from the appearance alone, but I would have liked at least a MINOR stat boost, like, 10 extra damage or something ridiculously minor like that, just so it doesn't just feel like a skinned version of a weapon everyone has.
Either way, I really like what has been said in the video, I was genuinely worried before, with the way they used to go on about how nothing would be a timesink etc etc etc, but now they actually have SOME form of big goal at level 80 in the form of skill points, I feel much better about this game.
Now just to wait for beta so I can actually get to experience how it plays.
My answer is, I don't know. And I don't get why there is even people posting about it. There are tons of topics on this already, and it is just going to turn into people saying "GW2 has no end game" and what not.
From the interview, I am excited and it sounds like fun. But I have no idea if it is going to be fun or how it will play out. I will cross that path when I get there sometime after launch. When I stop enjoying myself, I will stop playing. No need to decide now before I have even played 90% of what the game has to offer content wise. And not only "not played", but not even seen in videos. There is so much hidden from us right now, it is going to be quite an adventure.
I personally think that will be one of the first updates after release. They already have the areas designated where housing would be, it's just a matter of implementing the homes for each player. I bet they already have it planned out and maybe even close to finished (I'm just guessing here).
But, considering how much thought and foresight Anet seems to put into this game, I'm pretty sure they've realized that "trophy" storage without housing is going to be a big problem.
Besides, they have HOM rewards like housecats. Where are you going to put a housecat besides in a house?
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
But you can simply enjoy the content in any game, no one's forcing you to run dungeons for gear. If you want to hit level cap and explore the world in say WoW or Rift, have at it. My point is that the GW2 fans continue to equate games with gear progression as not being fun and only being treadmills. This makes me laugh because GW2 will have players running the same dungeons over and over or participating in PvP the same way traditional themeparks do but with little in terms of rewards or progression.
The downscaling in level when revisiting lower than your current level zones alone already means for me more end game content than other games have to offer where indeed there's typically only some repeatables and the latest instance cluster to do at end game and all previous content is made obsolete either by severely outlevelling it and nobody playing it anymore or by gear progression (previous instance cluster so piss easy that it's not even remotely fun).
Multiple types of content for everyone....now do we have the problem that there are too many choices? j/k
Personally I'm thrilled with what I've heard about end game. I don't raid now, I don't have the time. I don't PvP much at all, it makes me crazy (I take it way too personal). Putting a major portion of PVE end game into the open world is fantastic as it opens it up to everyone. Now do I stick to my guns and keep my vow to take my time, or hurry up to see Orr?
There are rewards and progression. There is nothing to explore at "end game" in WoW or RIFT. As it is pointless. Sure you can go back and roll lower level zones on your 50 but it isn't challenging what so ever. I have done it, and it is boring and easy. Just like the raiding and dungeongs after the first couple runs.
At level 80 in GW2, you have access to all the content in the game (including lower level areas) all which give you rewards, loot and experience. This is easily over 10 times the content WoW or RIFT could ever dream of opening up to max level characters.
Your (and most people's) problem is you think treadmilling on trivial content that you have already completed X times is "fun". When all you are really actually doing is chasing some gear carrot on a stick. You are losing the ability to have fun, and are turning into a mindless gear grinding robot.
To each their own, but I think it is too early to tell for GW2. I am going to play it, and enjoy myself. When that is done, I will stop playing it. As I have done with every other game ever released ... I am 100% certain GW2 will be a better values and hold my attention longer than WoW, RIFT or SWTOR. These games are so damn easy, I find it funny that people love it so much.
Some players will grind dungeons for a cosmetic piece or set. Some players won't. It's optional. And the amount of power your character enjoys will not be affected by that choice.
The players that are saying there is not a grind, and are happy with that, are likely the same players that won't be running the same dungeons over and over again. To lump all "fans" of the game in that single pile is... well I guess it's a way you get our laughs.
I do think they made the right decision to move housing to an expansion though. I want Arena Net to do it right and not just slap down some instanced apartments.
Ah, see, therein lies the rub. You're giving the impression that rewards or progression can only be found in gaining more powerful gear. There are those of us that realize that this simply isn't true. Rewards and progression can be cosmetic and personally satisfying. Why should rewards and progression be tied simply to the latest raid instance to be released, especially since that raid by default obsoletes all prior content? Why should they be tied solely to a numbers game, even if by gaining those numbers you wind up in gear you're flat out not satisfied with the appearance of? (Yes, I'm looking at you, he who designed assorted WoW pally tier gear... grr...)
You have an extremely exclusive view of what rewards and progression are. This is why you cannot understand. EVERY single time I successfully run an explorable mode dungeon in GW2, regardless of the dungeon level, I get rewarded. By being cosmetic rewards, I get to pick and choose throughout the game what I alone want those rewards to be. Maybe that level 50 dungeon has a set I think looks amazing. You know what? At level 80, I can go back, run that dungeon while still finding it a challenge, get rewarded, get the gear and boost the stats on the gear to equate to level 80 gear and be fully satisfied with my accomplishment. How's it work in WoW again? Ah yes... I remember. What's this boss drop? Ooh, if he drops that, it calculates to a 13.2dps increase! Damn, didn't drop. Next boss... nothing I need. Next boss... ah, a trinket that increases my dps by 15.3! IT DROPPED! Damn, the ret pally won the roll. Better luck next week. Yeah... that's fun.
Oderint, dum metuant.