I think the will to support a small team to develop such a huge and difficult project could be easily generated in a customer/fan-base by frankly stating the reality about the company, the game and a realistic future time schedule.
But do the developers do that? I don't see that at all.
There is no statement of the devs declaring the november release as what it really is. Instead claim that it isn't a beta and that they've always said that the initial launch would be a unfinished which is clearly a lie. In all avaiable sources, they describe the online-sale concept's aim in generating a bigger share of initial sales-money. They never mentioned that they plan to release an unfinished version until last month.
They don't speak about releasing the 'real' version of the game when it hits the shelves next year. The devs are still calling it a 'collectors-edition'.
The developers refuse to tell the potential customers anything about the status of the game now, two month before release, and so obviously they don't know what they will be able to provide in nov or they don't want the people to know. Neither of the possibilities would lead me to support them.
If the devs rely on the funds generated by a rushed release, ok with me, as long as they are clearly stating it and making informing the community their priority No 1. As long as they develop like themselves but have the blizzard-attitude when handling their community, I see no need to support that in any way.
Originally posted by mattmate The keyword here being BETA. We are aware its unfinished! Thats what BETA means. What do you want them to do? From the looks of it, the game already covers a large amount in the beta release, give the guys a fair go. If not, then just dont pay, but you cant change anything by having a cry on forums about it. Reality is that enough people will pay for it. Me being one of them.
That's a BS answer this is not a paid beta it's a premature release (or a soft release, which is what many people predicted was going to happen) the paid Beta is just a spin by the DEVS. The truth of the matter was given in their original press release.
" The game will be released in November because our first objective will be fulfilled in November: a first version of Dark and Light that will allow the most faithful members of our community to be part of the legend of Ganareth (which they could do by letting them into an unpaid Beta, or pre order), and to add their name to the background. We always said that the final goal of DnL was to allow players to put a hand on the game, to have complete freedom, and to be part of the construction of Ganareth. This is what we will offer to you in November 2005. (which is just saying there won't be any/much content)."
Of course people want to beta test the game, thats always the case, but again this is a BS answer people have wanted to beta test it for the last year. Again what has really happened is that they duig themselves into a hole by commiting to a release date they couldn't meet and they chose to release the game undone.
As for "crying" stop being self-rightous these forums are for people to express their oipnions, even when they don't agree with yours. If you can't handle people actually having different thouhts then yours then I suggest you take your "crying" about them posting here somewhere else.
Originally posted by bverji Originally posted by mattmate The keyword here being BETA. We are aware its unfinished! Thats what BETA means. What do you want them to do? From the looks of it, the game already covers a large amount in the beta release, give the guys a fair go. If not, then just dont pay, but you cant change anything by having a cry on forums about it. Reality is that enough people will pay for it. Me being one of them. That's a BS answer this is not a paid beta it's a premature release (or a soft release, which is what many people predicted was going to happen) the paid Beta is just a spin by the DEVS. The truth of the matter was given in their original press release. " The game will be released in November because our first objective will be fulfilled in November: a first version of Dark and Light that will allow the most faithful members of our community to be part of the legend of Ganareth (which they could do by letting them into an unpaid Beta, or pre order), and to add their name to the background. We always said that the final goal of DnL was to allow players to put a hand on the game, to have complete freedom, and to be part of the construction of Ganareth. This is what we will offer to you in November 2005. (which is just saying there won't be any/much content)." Of course people want to beta test the game, thats always the case, but again this is a BS answer people have wanted to beta test it for the last year. Again what has really happened is that they duig themselves into a hole by commiting to a release date they couldn't meet and they chose to release the game undone. As for "crying" stop being self-rightous these forums are for people to express their oipnions, even when they don't agree with yours. If you can't handle people actually having different thouhts then yours then I suggest you take your "crying" about them posting here somewhere else.
It isnt a question of "crying" about people not liking the game. For those of us who are going to play in November, there isnt anything that is going to deter us from doing that. We come here in the hope of finding new information or just to talk about the game.
Some people here think the game will fall flat on it's ass. FINE. We get it. Speaking for myself, I cant seem to grasp the need some people have for constantly bashing the game over and over and over again???? I asked Jackdog what possible "reward" does he receive for coming here day after day and posting negaive comments. To me, that type of behavior is very strange.
I checked on some of the other boards and was unable to find the level of hate for a game that you can EASILY find here. Why? There are games that are coming out this month or a month from now that are not (IMO) even close to being ready. Why arent people on those boards bashing?
I'm sure IRL people like Jackdog, Ukraina.... are very nice people which makes it all the more perplexing why they would spend so much time here hindering a debate over a game they say they wont play?
I checked on some of the other boards and was unable to find the level of hate for a game that you can EASILY find here. Why? There are games that are coming out this month or a month from now that are not (IMO) even close to being ready. Why arent people on those boards bashing?
...
There is a simple answer to that. It's obvious that ppl are more interested in the concepts, promises, featurelist etc. of DnL than in same things from other games. If the critics weren't interested in a success of DnL they wouldn't even think about posting here. So there seems to be a wide consens about the potential of the game which is in fact very positive about DnL. The difference in opinions here refers more to the way the devs trying to reach their aims and the ppl tending towards the negative side just don't want another good concept wasted because of the way it is handled by it's devs.
Originally posted by Falcon2K Originally posted by Jadal .... I checked on some of the other boards and was unable to find the level of hate for a game that you can EASILY find here. Why? There are games that are coming out this month or a month from now that are not (IMO) even close to being ready. Why arent people on those boards bashing? ... There is a simple answer to that. It's obvious that ppl are more interested in the concepts, promises, featurelist etc. of DnL than in same things from other games. If the critics weren't interested in a success of DnL they wouldn't even think about posting here. So there seems to be a wide consens about the potential of the game which is in fact very positive about DnL. The difference in opinions here refers more to the way the devs trying to reach their aims and the ppl tending towards the negative side just don't want another good concept wasted because of the way it is handled by it's devs.
Completely understandable.
I hope it isnt a wasted effort too. The issue I was trying to get at was why some people who are disappointed, voice their dissappointment over and over again. Just wondering what sort of personal reward they get out of doing that?
Probably about the same amount of reward that the fanboys get from continualy posting about how wonderful the game will be when all indications is it won't be worth a darn. I love the games concepts, however if they insist on this paid beta crap it will just be another great concept in the toilet, because right now all they are is concepts. Every answer in their FAQ should be "we are working on it".
Originally posted by Jackdog Probably about the same amount of reward that the fanboys get from continualy posting about how wonderful the game will be when all indications is it won't be worth a darn. I love the games concepts, however if they insist on this paid beta crap it will just be another great concept in the toilet, because right now all they are is concepts. Every answer in their FAQ should be "we are working on it".
Originally posted by Jackdog Probably about the same amount of reward that the fanboys get from continualy posting about how wonderful the game will be when all indications is it won't be worth a darn. I love the games concepts, however if they insist on this paid beta crap it will just be another great concept in the toilet, because right now all they are is concepts. Every answer in their FAQ should be "we are working on it".
lol keep hope alive Jackdog! You ever hear the old adage about hoping in one hand and spitting in the other Jadal? Thats what really torques me about this whole thing, that is the devs build up this big old picture in the FAQ saying we will have this and we will have that and from what the beta testers keep leaking 90% of that stuff is just BS. Now this is after threee years worth of development, and people think they will suddenly get a shot of inspiration and put the whole thing together in a few months. This is the same crap the Mourning Devs pulled.
Originally posted by Jackdog Originally posted by JadalOriginally posted by JackdogProbably about the same amount of reward that the fanboys get from continualy posting about how wonderful the game will be when all indications is it won't be worth a darn. I love the games concepts, however if they insist on this paid beta crap it will just be another great concept in the toilet, because right now all they are is concepts. Every answer in their FAQ should be "we are working on it". lol keep hope alive Jackdog! You ever hear the old adage about hoping in one hand and spitting in the other Jadal? Thats what really torques me about this whole thing, that is the devs build up this big old picture in the FAQ saying we will have this and we will have that and from what the beta testers keep leaking 90% of that stuff is just BS. Now this is after threee years worth of development, and people think they will suddenly get a shot of inspiration and put the whole thing together in a few months. This is the same crap the Mourning Devs pulled.
Yes yes I understand. Let it out. Let the rage fly out of your fingertips and be gone. It either works or it doesnt. Such is life.
I'll make you a solid promise though. If I'm not to caught up in the game, I will come back here and give you and everyone else an honest review. No pulled punches. I've played them all and most dont last more than a couple weeks. So I'm not scared to buy, find out its crap and come back and tell you so. But if I'm playing a couple months in, you can bet its decent and playable.
You just have to give the devs a fair go. Dont shoot them down before the game has even been released to play.
I mean dont knock it before you try it. They COULD potentially release a great game that they have kept under wraps.
Look at the name of this thread "Do not support paid Betas" is that an opinion or a statement? Well it hasnt changed my mind. I will pay, I think anyone who puts effort into something deservees to get some rewards.
As for the whole "crying" thing its true. I come on here to look up some more info on the game just to find people complaining already about having to pay. If you dont like it then dont pay it. I dont give a crap if you do or dont pay.
If you took out all the complaining that goes on in forums, then they would be a great place to gain ifo and help people out.
I vote for a complaints forum, that ppl can just go have a cry in.
From my point of view, both sides of discussion here have the problem that neither of them will help the advance the game in any way.
The Goodpeople say that they leave the question of the success of the game to the devs. If they fail, so be it. It only takes a small amount of money, noone get's hurt. If the devs don't know what they are doing it's their problem. If it's a financial desaster, it's their problem. If the game is bad, who cares, let's play another one. The Goodpeople give their best (their money) and so they think, they have given the game a good start and any chance to survive and advance.
The problem with this is, that in the opinion of the Badpeople especially this behaviour will lead to the death of the game.
The Badpeople on the other hand see that there is a dramatic lack of information (for the searchers, visit stratics.com, 98% of info avaiable can be found there). All indications show, that there won't be enough in the game to please the expactations of the community. Even if the devs manage to include alot more features into the game in the coming two month, there is no chance to test the stuff out to a point where it is likely that there won't be dramatic technical problems. There is no logic in assuming the devs of this game are in any way superior or are all gifted with such brilliancy, that they can do what others can't.
The problem with the Badpeople here is, that this opinoin isn't constructive in any way. Nothing is said about the way, the Badpeople think would be the one to avoid the failure of the devs and the game. The only conclusion would be to forget the game and leave it to those Goodpeople in the hope they prove the Badpeople where wrong or if not, have the joy of seeing the Goodies suffer from the distance.
And what if you think the Baddies are right about the release in november but don't want the game to suffer the fate of mourning or similar games because the playerbase give the devs too much too die but too few to survive?
The only thing to do for a Baddie (like me) is perhaps to naively show an alternative which is unlikely to happen but shows at least that there is a possibility for success of the project, even with it's current status.
My proposal would be:
- stop the november realease
- raise the NDA now
- widen the closed beta in november to 20k players +
- generate money with a preorder system (letting every preorder into the closed beta)
- turn the closed beta into an open one after two or three month, when a technically stable status is achieved and start to hype the game as you can
- release in march/april
Some additonal comments:
The lenghthening of beta wouldn't force the devs to change priorities on the daily basis of a running system. Litte example: CS calls dev because of heavy lag-problems...Answer after release: we will fix this as fast as we can (ignoring all other work)...Answer in beta: We'll look into it, when we finished xy just reset the servers every two hours. In other words: A release drastically reduces flexibility in development for a small team.
Don't blame me for wanting a hype for this game. WoW opened the box of pandora and if you want it or not, the kids WILL find this game. Don't blame it, use it. The gamemechanics are the only filters for stupidity that will work. So let them in, let them pay, let them see it's not for them .
Char-Wipes are imo the only way to set a game back on track after cleaning exploits and abuses. Forcing a release will prevent the devs from doing so and will lead to the point where they can#t get rid of unbalances because paying customers don't tend to like their chars wiped. In beta it can be done where needed.
And at last: Do not support paid betas. If the devs insist on their current schedule, don't pay them. Force them to reconsider, force them to make decisions to the wellbeing of the game. Show them the market has changed and oldfashioned plans don't work anymore.
Originally posted by Falcon2K From my point of view, both sides of discussion here have the problem that neither of them will help the advance the game in any way. The Goodpeople say that they leave the question of the success of the game to the devs. If they fail, so be it. It only takes a small amount of money, noone get's hurt. If the devs don't know what they are doing it's their problem. If it's a financial desaster, it's their problem. If the game is bad, who cares, let's play another one. The Goodpeople give their best (their money) and so they think, they have given the game a good start and any chance to survive and advance. The problem with this is, that in the opinion of the Badpeople especially this behaviour will lead to the death of the game. The Badpeople on the other hand see that there is a dramatic lack of information (for the searchers, visit stratics.com, 98% of info avaiable can be found there). All indications show, that there won't be enough in the game to please the expactations of the community. Even if the devs manage to include alot more features into the game in the coming two month, there is no chance to test the stuff out to a point where it is likely that there won't be dramatic technical problems. There is no logic in assuming the devs of this game are in any way superior or are all gifted with such brilliancy, that they can do what others can't. The problem with the Badpeople here is, that this opinoin isn't constructive in any way. Nothing is said about the way, the Badpeople think would be the one to avoid the failure of the devs and the game. The only conclusion would be to forget the game and leave it to those Goodpeople in the hope they prove the Badpeople where wrong or if not, have the joy of seeing the Goodies suffer from the distance. And what if you think the Baddies are right about the release in november but don't want the game to suffer the fate of mourning or similar games because the playerbase give the devs too much too die but too few to survive? The only thing to do for a Baddie (like me) is perhaps to naively show an alternative which is unlikely to happen but shows at least that there is a possibility for success of the project, even with it's current status. My proposal would be: - stop the november realease - raise the NDA now - widen the closed beta in november to 20k players + - generate money with a preorder system (letting every preorder into the closed beta) - turn the closed beta into an open one after two or three month, when a technically stable status is achieved and start to hype the game as you can - release in march/april Some additonal comments: The lenghthening of beta wouldn't force the devs to change priorities on the daily basis of a running system. Litte example: CS calls dev because of heavy lag-problems...Answer after release: we will fix this as fast as we can (ignoring all other work)...Answer in beta: We'll look into it, when we finished xy just reset the servers every two hours. In other words: A release drastically reduces flexibility in development for a small team. Don't blame me for wanting a hype for this game. WoW opened the box of pandora and if you want it or not, the kids WILL find this game. Don't blame it, use it. The gamemechanics are the only filters for stupidity that will work. So let them in, let them pay, let them see it's not for them . Char-Wipes are imo the only way to set a game back on track after cleaning exploits and abuses. Forcing a release will prevent the devs from doing so and will lead to the point where they can#t get rid of unbalances because paying customers don't tend to like their chars wiped. In beta it can be done where needed. And at last: Do not support paid betas. If the devs insist on their current schedule, don't pay them. Force them to reconsider, force them to make decisions to the wellbeing of the game. Show them the market has changed and oldfashioned plans don't work anymore. ok,ok..enough naivity...but at least I tried....
In a perfect world, or a world you created, all these suggestions would be wonderful. Problem is we dont live there. We bitch at the "devs" as if they were the ones pulling the strings. In many cases they are not. For better or worse this game is coming in November. We have no say in that.
The answer cannot be: "Dear DnL, We feel your game is grossly unfinished and upon release we will not be purchasing your game."
IMO if we did that as a group to "teach them a lesson", we would only be hurting ourselves in the long run. Small companies, which have always been the innovaters in the gaming industry, would think twice about putting out anything new.
Be that as it may, I like the game and my purchase will not be made on any political grounds. If you think you will like it, buy it. If not, wait or never purchase.
The answer cannot be: "Dear DnL, We feel your game is grossly unfinished and upon release we will not be purchasing your game."
IMO if we did that as a group to "teach them a lesson", we would only be hurting ourselves in the long run. Small companies, which have always been the innovaters in the gaming industry, would think twice about putting out anything new.
But on the other side of the coin, if you have a bunch of people jumping on to pay for the game no matter what state it is in, it shows those puppetmasters that are pulling the devs strings that they can release something half finished and people will still buy it. In essence, you're showing them that they can get away with it.
Originally posted by darquenblade Originally posted by Jadal The answer cannot be: "Dear DnL, We feel your game is grossly unfinished and upon release we will not be purchasing your game."
IMO if we did that as a group to "teach them a lesson", we would only be hurting ourselves in the long run. Small companies, which have always been the innovaters in the gaming industry, would think twice about putting out anything new.
But on the other side of the coin, if you have a bunch of people jumping on to pay for the game no matter what state it is in, it shows those puppetmasters that are pulling the devs strings that they can release something half finished and people will still buy it. In essence, you're showing them that they can get away with it.
That is certainly a possibility. The developers are still the ones who have to begin the process. So their collective attitude about the plausibility of their project is the key.
People invest for a number of different reasons on a number of different products. We cant know an investors motivation beyond the desire to make money. We can at least suppose they are in it for the long term gain. It is just as possible they are in it for the short term. Who knows.
While I understand your argument, my hope is that DnL will be a good game. Beyond that, if it helps in any way to build innovation into the market then all the better. The market influence or X number of sales is a distant secondary concern to me, but still something I am concious of.
That is certainly a possibility. The developers are still the ones who have to begin the process. So their collective attitude about the plausibility of their project is the key.
People invest for a number of different reasons on a number of different products. We cant know an investors motivation beyond the desire to make money. We can at least suppose they are in it for the long term gain. It is just as possible they are in it for the short term. Who knows.
While I understand your argument, my hope is that DnL will be a good game. Beyond that, if it helps in any way to build innovation into the market then all the better. The market influence or X number of sales is a distant secondary concern to me, but still something I am concious of.
In my opinion anyone who participates in this so called paid beta and sends NPCube a dime is shooting themselves in the foot as far as their gaming future goes. If we as consumers willingly lap up these half finished buggy games that just shows the developers what suckers we really are and that will doom us to more and more of these botched releases. I am sorry but I am not rewarding the Devs for trying, if they can manage to ever finish the game and at least get it to a SOE level of release and God knows that is not a very high standard for them to strive for then I will not only willingly send them my money but will do it gladly.
Originally posted by Jackdog In my opinion anyone who participates in this so called paid beta and sends NPCube a dime is shooting themselves in the foot as far as their gaming future goes. If we as consumers willingly lap up these half finished buggy games that just shows the developers what suckers we really are and that will doom us to more and more of these botched releases. I am sorry but I am not rewarding the Devs for trying, if they can manage to ever finish the game and at least get it to a SOE level of release and God knows that is not a very high standard for them to strive for then I will not only willingly send them my money but will do it gladly.
I hope they don't shoot themselves in the foot with this paid beta they are proposing. I have been following this ganme for over two years now and was floored when they announced this plan. So I guess it does not matter a bit what I want or hope, it looks like they are just gonna get what money they can from the fools who will send them money in November and the game will be nothing but another "well it could have been good" footnote in the history of MMORPGs.
It seems like, if they do need funding, they are just trying to get it without splitting the profit. Another possibility is they want to make profit before it launches because they expect a bad launch(people finding out how it is in public beta).
P.S. Anyone know if the NDA is still in effect?
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open. Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
I didnt read all the posts so exscuse me if this question has been answered already but has there ever been a "pay to play" beta before? I've beta tested alot of mmo's and I've never heard of this.
Originally posted by Darktania I didnt read all the posts so exscuse me if this question has been answered already but has there ever been a "pay to play" beta before? I've beta tested alot of mmo's and I've never heard of this.
This thread is actually about DnL being released half-baked for people to buy and subscribe. And, yes, that has happened before. (I bought AO on the day it was released. Ouchies!)
MMOCenter has an actual "pay to play" beta, basically-- preordering the service gets you a closed beta spot. The difference there is that they aren't calling it a release, so people *know* they are paying to beta test it.
... This is where I draw the line: __________________.
Comments
I think the will to support a small team to develop such a huge and difficult project could be easily generated in a customer/fan-base by frankly stating the reality about the company, the game and a realistic future time schedule.
But do the developers do that? I don't see that at all.
There is no statement of the devs declaring the november release as what it really is. Instead claim that it isn't a beta and that they've always said that the initial launch would be a unfinished which is clearly a lie. In all avaiable sources, they describe the online-sale concept's aim in generating a bigger share of initial sales-money. They never mentioned that they plan to release an unfinished version until last month.
They don't speak about releasing the 'real' version of the game when it hits the shelves next year. The devs are still calling it a 'collectors-edition'.
The developers refuse to tell the potential customers anything about the status of the game now, two month before release, and so obviously they don't know what they will be able to provide in nov or they don't want the people to know. Neither of the possibilities would lead me to support them.
If the devs rely on the funds generated by a rushed release, ok with me, as long as they are clearly stating it and making informing the community their priority No 1. As long as they develop like themselves but have the blizzard-attitude when handling their community, I see no need to support that in any way.
P.S.: exuse the bad english...not my language
That's a BS answer this is not a paid beta it's a premature release (or a soft release, which is what many people predicted was going to happen) the paid Beta is just a spin by the DEVS. The truth of the matter was given in their original press release.
" The game will be released in November because our first objective will be fulfilled in November: a first version of Dark and Light that will allow the most faithful members of our community to be part of the legend of Ganareth (which they could do by letting them into an unpaid Beta, or pre order), and to add their name to the background. We always said that the final goal of DnL was to allow players to put a hand on the game, to have complete freedom, and to be part of the construction of Ganareth. This is what we will offer to you in November 2005. (which is just saying there won't be any/much content)."
Of course people want to beta test the game, thats always the case, but again this is a BS answer people have wanted to beta test it for the last year. Again what has really happened is that they duig themselves into a hole by commiting to a release date they couldn't meet and they chose to release the game undone.
As for "crying" stop being self-rightous these forums are for people to express their oipnions, even when they don't agree with yours. If you can't handle people actually having different thouhts then yours then I suggest you take your "crying" about them posting here somewhere else.
It isnt a question of "crying" about people not liking the game. For those of us who are going to play in November, there isnt anything that is going to deter us from doing that. We come here in the hope of finding new information or just to talk about the game.
Some people here think the game will fall flat on it's ass. FINE. We get it. Speaking for myself, I cant seem to grasp the need some people have for constantly bashing the game over and over and over again???? I asked Jackdog what possible "reward" does he receive for coming here day after day and posting negaive comments. To me, that type of behavior is very strange.
I checked on some of the other boards and was unable to find the level of hate for a game that you can EASILY find here. Why? There are games that are coming out this month or a month from now that are not (IMO) even close to being ready. Why arent people on those boards bashing?
I'm sure IRL people like Jackdog, Ukraina.... are very nice people which makes it all the more perplexing why they would spend so much time here hindering a debate over a game they say they wont play?
2c
That is a rhetorical observation, if you will.
There is a simple answer to that. It's obvious that ppl are more interested in the concepts, promises, featurelist etc. of DnL than in same things from other games. If the critics weren't interested in a success of DnL they wouldn't even think about posting here. So there seems to be a wide consens about the potential of the game which is in fact very positive about DnL. The difference in opinions here refers more to the way the devs trying to reach their aims and the ppl tending towards the negative side just don't want another good concept wasted because of the way it is handled by it's devs.
I hope it isnt a wasted effort too. The issue I was trying to get at was why some people who are disappointed, voice their dissappointment over and over again. Just wondering what sort of personal reward they get out of doing that?
meh takes all kinds I guess
I miss DAoC
You ever hear the old adage about hoping in one hand and spitting in the other Jadal? Thats what really torques me about this whole thing, that is the devs build up this big old picture in the FAQ saying we will have this and we will have that and from what the beta testers keep leaking 90% of that stuff is just BS. Now this is after threee years worth of development, and people think they will suddenly get a shot of inspiration and put the whole thing together in a few months. This is the same crap the Mourning Devs pulled.
I miss DAoC
Yes yes I understand. Let it out. Let the rage fly out of your fingertips and be gone. It either works or it doesnt. Such is life.
I'll make you a solid promise though. If I'm not to caught up in the game, I will come back here and give you and everyone else an honest review. No pulled punches. I've played them all and most dont last more than a couple weeks. So I'm not scared to buy, find out its crap and come back and tell you so. But if I'm playing a couple months in, you can bet its decent and playable.
Sound good?
You just have to give the devs a fair go. Dont shoot them down before the game has even been released to play.
I mean dont knock it before you try it. They COULD potentially release a great game that they have kept under wraps.
Look at the name of this thread "Do not support paid Betas" is that an opinion or a statement? Well it hasnt changed my mind. I will pay, I think anyone who puts effort into something deservees to get some rewards.
As for the whole "crying" thing its true. I come on here to look up some more info on the game just to find people complaining already about having to pay. If you dont like it then dont pay it. I dont give a crap if you do or dont pay.
If you took out all the complaining that goes on in forums, then they would be a great place to gain ifo and help people out.
I vote for a complaints forum, that ppl can just go have a cry in.
this is a scenario between a person that resembles NPCube and DnL, and a person that resembles people like ukraina etc. etc.
NPCube : Hi there! My name is NPCube
Badpeople : Uh.. hi there. Is there something you want?
NPCube : I would just like to let you know on an upcoming MMORPG that my friends and I are making.
Badpeople : really? how is it going?
NPCube : Well we are still having a few issues and are still implementing content in it.
Badpeople : what stage is it in?
NPCube : Beta, it will be coming out in november of 2005.
Badpeople : ....
NPCube : wha-
*GETS SHOT IN THE FACE BY BADPEOPLE*
yall just shoot them in the face before they can really explain themselves. you shooting them in the middle of a conversation. bad bad manners.
lol nice
1:30am, feel like this ------->
From my point of view, both sides of discussion here have the problem that neither of them will help the advance the game in any way.
The Goodpeople say that they leave the question of the success of the game to the devs. If they fail, so be it. It only takes a small amount of money, noone get's hurt. If the devs don't know what they are doing it's their problem. If it's a financial desaster, it's their problem. If the game is bad, who cares, let's play another one. The Goodpeople give their best (their money) and so they think, they have given the game a good start and any chance to survive and advance.
The problem with this is, that in the opinion of the Badpeople especially this behaviour will lead to the death of the game.
The Badpeople on the other hand see that there is a dramatic lack of information (for the searchers, visit stratics.com, 98% of info avaiable can be found there). All indications show, that there won't be enough in the game to please the expactations of the community. Even if the devs manage to include alot more features into the game in the coming two month, there is no chance to test the stuff out to a point where it is likely that there won't be dramatic technical problems. There is no logic in assuming the devs of this game are in any way superior or are all gifted with such brilliancy, that they can do what others can't.
The problem with the Badpeople here is, that this opinoin isn't constructive in any way. Nothing is said about the way, the Badpeople think would be the one to avoid the failure of the devs and the game. The only conclusion would be to forget the game and leave it to those Goodpeople in the hope they prove the Badpeople where wrong or if not, have the joy of seeing the Goodies suffer from the distance.
And what if you think the Baddies are right about the release in november but don't want the game to suffer the fate of mourning or similar games because the playerbase give the devs too much too die but too few to survive?
The only thing to do for a Baddie (like me) is perhaps to naively show an alternative which is unlikely to happen but shows at least that there is a possibility for success of the project, even with it's current status.
My proposal would be:
- stop the november realease
- raise the NDA now
- widen the closed beta in november to 20k players +
- generate money with a preorder system (letting every preorder into the closed beta)
- turn the closed beta into an open one after two or three month, when a technically stable status is achieved and start to hype the game as you can
- release in march/april
Some additonal comments:
The lenghthening of beta wouldn't force the devs to change priorities on the daily basis of a running system. Litte example: CS calls dev because of heavy lag-problems...Answer after release: we will fix this as fast as we can (ignoring all other work)...Answer in beta: We'll look into it, when we finished xy just reset the servers every two hours. In other words: A release drastically reduces flexibility in development for a small team.
Don't blame me for wanting a hype for this game. WoW opened the box of pandora and if you want it or not, the kids WILL find this game. Don't blame it, use it. The gamemechanics are the only filters for stupidity that will work. So let them in, let them pay, let them see it's not for them
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Char-Wipes are imo the only way to set a game back on track after cleaning exploits and abuses. Forcing a release will prevent the devs from doing so and will lead to the point where they can#t get rid of unbalances because paying customers don't tend to like their chars wiped. In beta it can be done where needed.
And at last: Do not support paid betas. If the devs insist on their current schedule, don't pay them. Force them to reconsider, force them to make decisions to the wellbeing of the game. Show them the market has changed and oldfashioned plans don't work anymore.
ok,ok..enough naivity...but at least I tried....
In a perfect world, or a world you created, all these suggestions would be wonderful. Problem is we dont live there. We bitch at the "devs" as if they were the ones pulling the strings. In many cases they are not. For better or worse this game is coming in November. We have no say in that.
The answer cannot be: "Dear DnL, We feel your game is grossly unfinished and upon release we will not be purchasing your game."
IMO if we did that as a group to "teach them a lesson", we would only be hurting ourselves in the long run. Small companies, which have always been the innovaters in the gaming industry, would think twice about putting out anything new.
Be that as it may, I like the game and my purchase will not be made on any political grounds. If you think you will like it, buy it. If not, wait or never purchase.
IMO if we did that as a group to "teach them a lesson", we would only be hurting ourselves in the long run. Small companies, which have always been the innovaters in the gaming industry, would think twice about putting out anything new.
But on the other side of the coin, if you have a bunch of people jumping on to pay for the game no matter what state it is in, it shows those puppetmasters that are pulling the devs strings that they can release something half finished and people will still buy it. In essence, you're showing them that they can get away with it.
But on the other side of the coin, if you have a bunch of people jumping on to pay for the game no matter what state it is in, it shows those puppetmasters that are pulling the devs strings that they can release something half finished and people will still buy it. In essence, you're showing them that they can get away with it.
That is certainly a possibility. The developers are still the ones who have to begin the process. So their collective attitude about the plausibility of their project is the key.
People invest for a number of different reasons on a number of different products. We cant know an investors motivation beyond the desire to make money. We can at least suppose they are in it for the long term gain. It is just as possible they are in it for the short term. Who knows.
While I understand your argument, my hope is that DnL will be a good game. Beyond that, if it helps in any way to build innovation into the market then all the better. The market influence or X number of sales is a distant secondary concern to me, but still something I am concious of.
People invest for a number of different reasons on a number of different products. We cant know an investors motivation beyond the desire to make money. We can at least suppose they are in it for the long term gain. It is just as possible they are in it for the short term. Who knows.
While I understand your argument, my hope is that DnL will be a good game. Beyond that, if it helps in any way to build innovation into the market then all the better. The market influence or X number of sales is a distant secondary concern to me, but still something I am concious of.
Point taken and understood as well.
In my opinion anyone who participates in this so called paid beta and sends NPCube a dime is shooting themselves in the foot as far as their gaming future goes. If we as consumers willingly lap up these half finished buggy games that just shows the developers what suckers we really are and that will doom us to more and more of these botched releases. I am sorry but I am not rewarding the Devs for trying, if they can manage to ever finish the game and at least get it to a SOE level of release and God knows that is not a very high standard for them to strive for then I will not only willingly send them my money but will do it gladly.
I miss DAoC
I miss DAoC
It seems like, if they do need funding, they are just trying to get it without splitting the profit. Another possibility is they want to make profit before it launches because they expect a bad launch(people finding out how it is in public beta).
P.S. Anyone know if the NDA is still in effect?
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open.
Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
Don't mind ukraina he's trolling and post farming in every other MMORPG forum with not constructive posts just mindless flaming.
I CREATED MYSELF!
"<Claus|Dev> i r pk"
SW:TOR|War40K:DMO|GW2
This thread is actually about DnL being released half-baked for people to buy and subscribe. And, yes, that has happened before. (I bought AO on the day it was released. Ouchies!)
MMOCenter has an actual "pay to play" beta, basically-- preordering the service gets you a closed beta spot. The difference there is that they aren't calling it a release, so people *know* they are paying to beta test it.
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This is where I draw the line: __________________.