I dont like cash shops at all. If they only sell cosmetics I can ignore them and play anyway. If they sell convinience, boosts, utility items and other advantage items it will cross the line IMO. I will not be able to enjoy the game knowing things like that are for sale in the CS. Or if you can buy gold for RM and buy most items for gold in the AH or from vendors.
And how is that going to affect you?
I think it is unfair. I want a level playing field. My progress should not depend on how much money I spend. Its a matter of principle..and I dont like it.
Unfair advantage? How is that affecting you? in sPVP you gain nothing, in PVE you gain nothing, only in WvWvW you might get a bit of an advantage (at launch) once the real action starts (the grace period of WvWvW will end after a few days) most servers will be more balanced, the only real imbalance is up to level 30 (when you get your elite) after that the boosters won't make a real difference even in WvWvW.
And I repeat in sPVP or PVE there is absolutely no bonus or advantage in the Cash Shop. Unless you want to be the first at level 80 or the first to get some items from the merchant... why should you compare with others in PVE, there is no open PVP, there is no grind (to complain about leveling speed/boosters) so what is there to complain about in PVE?
I do not support the ability for a player to turn their money into game currency, however I can't blame the gaming company for creating the step within their game.
Far too many people are buying gold from outside sources as it is. The time spent banning these people, returning hacked accounts, and policing the game can be reduced and hopefully applied to more important areas.
I am not sure acceptance is the proper word to use here unless we also apply it to the reason behind the design. Do we also accept gold sellers and farmers as normal in our games?
This is true, but I do think that buying gold with cash gives you an advantage. It basically means that you will always have the best or near best equipment available to you, and you will never wont for blueprints in WvW.
I know that at level 80 blueprints may not seem so expensive, but at level 15, I didn't have enough silver for even ONE trebuchet. Couple this with the relative speed at which a battle moves in RvR and new siege equipment is needed...and all of a sudden you have a big money pit that will make buying gold for cash attractive.
One thing that is a nice change is you can now buy Blueprints with the PvP Marks that you get for kills in WvW. People who spend a lot of time in WvW will now have a "non-gold" source of Blueprints and Gear.
On the PvE Side most of the gear I want is Karma-based which I can get by playing the game. I've also enjoyed Crafting and I can Gather my own mats for that.
I'm going to be very interested to see what the Gem-to-Gold exchange rate eventually stabilizes at. Beyond some Character Slots and maybe a Bank Tab there's very little I saw in the CS that I "Must Have" and I can always buy the Gems straight up for those if I want. If others feel similarly, there isn't going to be a huge demand for Gems which will keep their prices down. And that greatly decreases their impact in the game.
Only time will tell, but the more I play the less-concerned I am about the CS.
This is true, but I do think that buying gold with cash gives you an advantage. It basically means that you will always have the best or near best equipment available to you, and you will never wont for blueprints in WvW.
I know that at level 80 blueprints may not seem so expensive, but at level 15, I didn't have enough silver for even ONE trebuchet. Couple this with the relative speed at which a battle moves in RvR and new siege equipment is needed...and all of a sudden you have a big money pit that will make buying gold for cash attractive.
One thing that is a nice change is you can now buy Blueprints with the PvP Marks that you get for kills in WvW. People who spend a lot of time in WvW will now have a "non-gold" source of Blueprints and Gear.
On the PvE Side most of the gear I want is Karma-based which I can get by playing the game. I've also enjoyed Crafting and I can Gather my own mats for that.
I'm going to be very interested to see what the Gem-to-Gold exchange rate eventually stabilizes at. Beyond some Character Slots and maybe a Bank Tab there's very little I saw in the CS that I "Must Have" and I can always buy the Gems straight up for those if I want. If others feel similarly, there isn't going to be a huge demand for Gems which will keep their prices down. And that greatly decreases their impact in the game.
Only time will tell, but the more I play the less-concerned I am about the CS.
That...is very nice! Thanks for letting me know that, I hadn't heard it before .
Honestly this was my biggest fear about the CS, that it would wind up causing cash-for-golders to dominate WvW. But I think this PvP marks system is a big step in the right direction.
One thing that is a nice change is you can now buy Blueprints with the PvP Marks that you get for kills in WvW. People who spend a lot of time in WvW will now have a "non-gold" source of Blueprints and Gear.
On the PvE Side most of the gear I want is Karma-based which I can get by playing the game. I've also enjoyed Crafting and I can Gather my own mats for that.
I'm going to be very interested to see what the Gem-to-Gold exchange rate eventually stabilizes at. Beyond some Character Slots and maybe a Bank Tab there's very little I saw in the CS that I "Must Have" and I can always buy the Gems straight up for those if I want. If others feel similarly, there isn't going to be a huge demand for Gems which will keep their prices down. And that greatly decreases their impact in the game.
Only time will tell, but the more I play the less-concerned I am about the CS.
That...is very nice! Thanks for letting me know that, I hadn't heard it before .
Honestly this was my biggest fear about the CS, that it would wind up causing cash-for-golders to dominate WvW. But I think this PvP marks system is a big step in the right direction.
Yeah it corrected what I thought might be a potential problem too...
...and apparently ANet agreed!
(which is another reason why I'm not concerned about GW2 - ANet has proven that they listen to their players and are willing to make sensible changes and make them quickly)
In a game like GW2 where leveling isn't the end all be all to power, the xp boosters, etc. that you can buy make little to no difference in the game. If it were a game where the objective is to rush to level cap and grind for stat armor to "pwn the noob" in PvP, then yes it would be a serious problem. Since you can "pwn the noob" in PvP at level 2 if you have some skill in GW2, I don't see a problem.
So, GW2 CS in WoW or WoW clone = bad
GW2 CS in GW2 or GW2 clone = ok
XP boost, etc. in PvE mean nothing to me in terms of how you acquired it so no issues there in any game. The only time a CS bothers me in PvE is if you have to pay extra for something to access the areas your quests send you to. For instance, in order to do my Epic quests in LotRO, I can go anywhere and do those, even in places I haven't paid for. I just can't get the quests specific to those areas and those other quests don't do much to level/evolve my character. Wizard 101 doesn't do it that way. I can get some quests there that are directly tied to the leveling of my character but I can't even enter the area I need to go to do the quest unless I pay.
So, LotRO CS relation to questing = ok
Wizard 101 CS relation to questing = bad
GW2 doesn't have either of those problems because you can access everywhere in the game for 1 payment of $60.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
and paying cash for in game bonuses was considered pay to win by the vast majority of the mmo community. Sure you had your gold buyers, and those who played pay to win games, but they by no means were the majority.
My question is with the coming of GW2, the cash for gems, and the ability to pay cash for bonuses, has the perception of these things changed?
Actually, the earlier MMO gamers had no problem with buying content from the developers. After all, there's no difference between buying an expansion and buying the individual components of it. Players wer against gold farmers and the 3rd party market.
There's a change-resistant subset of the NA audience that is being forced to come to terms withthe reality that not only have things changed, the change happened 5-7 years ago and they are only realizing it now. Judging by your view of how things supposedly were or are, I'd say you're part of that group.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by bcbully and paying cash for in game bonuses was considered pay to win by the vast majority of the mmo community. Sure you had your gold buyers, and those who played pay to win games, but they by no means were the majority.
My question is with the coming of GW2, the cash for gems, and the ability to pay cash for bonuses, has the perception of these things changed?
Disclaimer
This is not a thread about is GW2 pay to win. No minds will be changed on either side of the argument. For the record and to preemtively answer those who will assume, I do not think GW2 is a pay to win game. You can not buy the [Flaming Sword of I Win!]. I do believe you can buy bonuses that can help you in game however.
You forgot to mention a reason gold buying was frowned upon because it was often dependent on the hacking of accounts.
Yeah it corrected what I thought might be a potential problem too...
...and apparently ANet agreed!
(which is another reason why I'm not concerned about GW2 - ANet has proven that they listen to their players and are willing to make sensible changes and make them quickly)
It definitely feels that way, they do seem to very quickly and actively be fixing problems. It also seems like their "heart" is in the right place for all this...like they don't want the game to be P2W, so they will try to prevent that from happening. I just hope they keep up their level of responsiveness post release.
I remember back in EQ, Wizard was gimped for probably a YEAR before they fixed it lol .
Originally posted by bcbully and paying cash for in game bonuses was considered pay to win by the vast majority of the mmo community. Sure you had your gold buyers, and those who played pay to win games, but they by no means were the majority.
My question is with the coming of GW2, the cash for gems, and the ability to pay cash for bonuses, has the perception of these things changed?
Disclaimer
This is not a thread about is GW2 pay to win. No minds will be changed on either side of the argument. For the record and to preemtively answer those who will assume, I do not think GW2 is a pay to win game. You can not buy the [Flaming Sword of I Win!]. I do believe you can buy bonuses that can help you in game however.
You forgot to mention the main reason gold buying was frowned upon because it was often dependent on the hacking of accounts.
I don't know if this is necessarily true...it's definitely the bill of goods that a lot of companies with cash shops are selling, but I remember the main reason that gold buying was frowned upon was that it compromised the integrity of the game and created an uneven playing field.
Originally posted by Creslin321 Originally posted by strangepowerOriginally posted by bcbullyand paying cash for in game bonuses was considered pay to win by the vast majority of the mmo community. Sure you had your gold buyers, and those who played pay to win games, but they by no means were the majority. My question is with the coming of GW2, the cash for gems, and the ability to pay cash for bonuses, has the perception of these things changed? DisclaimerThis is not a thread about is GW2 pay to win. No minds will be changed on either side of the argument. For the record and to preemtively answer those who will assume, I do not think GW2 is a pay to win game. You can not buy the [Flaming Sword of I Win!]. I do believe you can buy bonuses that can help you in game however.
You forgot to mention the main reason gold buying was frowned upon because it was often dependent on the hacking of accounts.I don't know if this is necessarily true...it's definitely the bill of goods that a lot of companies with cash shops are selling, but I remember the main reason that gold buying was frowned upon was that it compromised the integrity of the game and created an uneven playing field.
Yes, I should of said, "a" reason, not the reason.
Much of the taboo on buying gold with dollars was because of the bad behavior that it subsidized: gold farmers, gold spammers, credit card theft, account hacking, etc. The gems system doesn't encourage any of that.
Some people have to L2R (learn to read). The topic is not about GW2.
And yes more people r not bothered with gold sellers any more. Cosidering any in-game cash is cheap. So extra $10-20 a month not hitting a poket much. Some games r trying to fight against gold sellers. Some r not bothered. And some selling gold in in-game shop, making gold farming not profitable for the 3rd party.
It a personal preference what game you play but personaly i rather play one where devs a fighting against gold sellers then two other choises.
Any gold farming and selling sooner or later will ruine fragile ingame economy.
Has the general opinion on buying gold/power changed? I'm not 100% sure yet. I do think that if companies embrace it and those who bought in silence are now open about it, it may seem so.
Has my opinion on buying gold/power changed? No. I still do not see the point. To me, it's the same as cheating. Especially in a game with a purchase cost or a sub. Why would I pay for a game for entertainment and then pay to not have to actually have to play it? I know it's not completed at that point, but you missed out on a large part of it. Even in a pure f2p game with cash shop, if the cash shop sells power, you are paying to skip out on trying to obtain that power. It just seems like a sure fire way for the game to have a shorter lifespam per player to me.
Much of the taboo on buying gold with dollars was because of the bad behavior that it subsidized: gold farmers, gold spammers, credit card theft, account hacking, etc. The gems system doesn't encourage any of that.
Pretty much covers it. Players of the NA/EU Lineage 2 servers at release probably have a plethora of horror stories to share on this topic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The new "gold sellers" are the game companies themselves. Except now the companies are trying to force everyone to purchase their "gold" instead of those outside gold farm/selling "companies". The scam part of the whole thing is just now that WE are getting screwed in the long run. Games are becoming less and less fun.
and paying cash for in game bonuses was considered pay to win by the vast majority of the mmo community. Sure you had your gold buyers, and those who played pay to win games, but they by no means were the majority.
My question is with the coming of GW2, the cash for gems, and the ability to pay cash for bonuses, has the perception of these things changed?
There's a change-resistant subset of the NA audience that is being forced to come to terms withthe reality that not only have things changed, the change happened 5-7 years ago and they are only realizing it now. Judging by your view of how things supposedly were or are, I'd say you're part of that group.
Yes I am. I not ready to believe that this is an overall change in gaming. I more inclined to think this is the sentiments of the GW2 fanbase.
Much of the taboo on buying gold with dollars was because of the bad behavior that it subsidized: gold farmers, gold spammers, credit card theft, account hacking, etc. The gems system doesn't encourage any of that.
Partly.
Personally, I feel like I'm defeating the purpose of the game. The fun is earning the stuff yourself, not putting in your credit card and having it appear.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Its pretty easy to explain really. IRL a far greater number of people are concerned with creating the illusion of their own competence then actually being competent. You see it all the time, its just the reality of an increasingly psychotic society... The illusion of honesty is more important then actually being honest...the illusion of wealth is more important then actually being wealthy.
People are perfectly happy to spend money avoiding actually playing the game to achieve their goals in game in order to gain an advantage.
Its a very Asian way of looking at things. Personally its caused me to stop treating MMO's as anything more then single player (or duo player with my wife) games with poor stories and lots of character development. It makes the games short lived but if I wait 6 months after release (when the crowd leaves) I can usually play easily and for cheap so its not all bad.
Comments
Unfair advantage? How is that affecting you? in sPVP you gain nothing, in PVE you gain nothing, only in WvWvW you might get a bit of an advantage (at launch) once the real action starts (the grace period of WvWvW will end after a few days) most servers will be more balanced, the only real imbalance is up to level 30 (when you get your elite) after that the boosters won't make a real difference even in WvWvW.
And I repeat in sPVP or PVE there is absolutely no bonus or advantage in the Cash Shop. Unless you want to be the first at level 80 or the first to get some items from the merchant... why should you compare with others in PVE, there is no open PVP, there is no grind (to complain about leveling speed/boosters) so what is there to complain about in PVE?
I wonder how much money did he pay for all these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZKfZ1jgkeg&feature=player_embedded
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I do not support the ability for a player to turn their money into game currency, however I can't blame the gaming company for creating the step within their game.
Far too many people are buying gold from outside sources as it is. The time spent banning these people, returning hacked accounts, and policing the game can be reduced and hopefully applied to more important areas.
I am not sure acceptance is the proper word to use here unless we also apply it to the reason behind the design. Do we also accept gold sellers and farmers as normal in our games?
One thing that is a nice change is you can now buy Blueprints with the PvP Marks that you get for kills in WvW. People who spend a lot of time in WvW will now have a "non-gold" source of Blueprints and Gear.
On the PvE Side most of the gear I want is Karma-based which I can get by playing the game. I've also enjoyed Crafting and I can Gather my own mats for that.
I'm going to be very interested to see what the Gem-to-Gold exchange rate eventually stabilizes at. Beyond some Character Slots and maybe a Bank Tab there's very little I saw in the CS that I "Must Have" and I can always buy the Gems straight up for those if I want. If others feel similarly, there isn't going to be a huge demand for Gems which will keep their prices down. And that greatly decreases their impact in the game.
Only time will tell, but the more I play the less-concerned I am about the CS.
That...is very nice! Thanks for letting me know that, I hadn't heard it before
.
Honestly this was my biggest fear about the CS, that it would wind up causing cash-for-golders to dominate WvW. But I think this PvP marks system is a big step in the right direction.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Yeah it corrected what I thought might be a potential problem too...
...and apparently ANet agreed!
(which is another reason why I'm not concerned about GW2 - ANet has proven that they listen to their players and are willing to make sensible changes and make them quickly)
In a game like GW2 where leveling isn't the end all be all to power, the xp boosters, etc. that you can buy make little to no difference in the game. If it were a game where the objective is to rush to level cap and grind for stat armor to "pwn the noob" in PvP, then yes it would be a serious problem. Since you can "pwn the noob" in PvP at level 2 if you have some skill in GW2, I don't see a problem.
So, GW2 CS in WoW or WoW clone = bad
GW2 CS in GW2 or GW2 clone = ok
XP boost, etc. in PvE mean nothing to me in terms of how you acquired it so no issues there in any game. The only time a CS bothers me in PvE is if you have to pay extra for something to access the areas your quests send you to. For instance, in order to do my Epic quests in LotRO, I can go anywhere and do those, even in places I haven't paid for. I just can't get the quests specific to those areas and those other quests don't do much to level/evolve my character. Wizard 101 doesn't do it that way. I can get some quests there that are directly tied to the leveling of my character but I can't even enter the area I need to go to do the quest unless I pay.
So, LotRO CS relation to questing = ok
Wizard 101 CS relation to questing = bad
GW2 doesn't have either of those problems because you can access everywhere in the game for 1 payment of $60.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
Actually, the earlier MMO gamers had no problem with buying content from the developers. After all, there's no difference between buying an expansion and buying the individual components of it. Players wer against gold farmers and the 3rd party market.
There's a change-resistant subset of the NA audience that is being forced to come to terms withthe reality that not only have things changed, the change happened 5-7 years ago and they are only realizing it now. Judging by your view of how things supposedly were or are, I'd say you're part of that group.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"Legalize it - don't criticize it " - Peter Tosh
Yeah, the times they are a changin'...
You forgot to mention a reason gold buying was frowned upon because it was often dependent on the hacking of accounts.
*Clarity
It definitely feels that way, they do seem to very quickly and actively be fixing problems. It also seems like their "heart" is in the right place for all this...like they don't want the game to be P2W, so they will try to prevent that from happening. I just hope they keep up their level of responsiveness post release.
I remember back in EQ, Wizard was gimped for probably a YEAR before they fixed it lol
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I don't know if this is necessarily true...it's definitely the bill of goods that a lot of companies with cash shops are selling, but I remember the main reason that gold buying was frowned upon was that it compromised the integrity of the game and created an uneven playing field.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I don't know if this is necessarily true...it's definitely the bill of goods that a lot of companies with cash shops are selling, but I remember the main reason that gold buying was frowned upon was that it compromised the integrity of the game and created an uneven playing field.
Yes, I should of said, "a" reason, not the reason.
Play world of tanks and you will understand what pay to win is about.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Paying cash for gold from an outside source is less acceptable because...
- it's illegal
- often bot gold, which can ruin economies
- players and devs do not have control over going rates, also bad for ingame economy
- the money doesn't go back into game developement, making it all-around non-beneficial for both game and the majority of players
Much of the taboo on buying gold with dollars was because of the bad behavior that it subsidized: gold farmers, gold spammers, credit card theft, account hacking, etc. The gems system doesn't encourage any of that.
Some people have to L2R (learn to read). The topic is not about GW2.
And yes more people r not bothered with gold sellers any more. Cosidering any in-game cash is cheap. So extra $10-20 a month not hitting a poket much. Some games r trying to fight against gold sellers. Some r not bothered. And some selling gold in in-game shop, making gold farming not profitable for the 3rd party.
It a personal preference what game you play but personaly i rather play one where devs a fighting against gold sellers then two other choises.
Any gold farming and selling sooner or later will ruine fragile ingame economy.
<a href="http://www.danasoft.com"><img src="http://www.danasoft.com/sig/499105419258.jpg"; border="0"></a><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px;"><p>Sign by Danasoft - <a href="http://www.danasoft.com">For Backgrounds and Layouts</a></p></div>
What if gems were "bind on account"?
Would it be a simple-stupid solution for the "pay to win" discussion?
Has the general opinion on buying gold/power changed? I'm not 100% sure yet. I do think that if companies embrace it and those who bought in silence are now open about it, it may seem so.
Has my opinion on buying gold/power changed? No. I still do not see the point. To me, it's the same as cheating. Especially in a game with a purchase cost or a sub. Why would I pay for a game for entertainment and then pay to not have to actually have to play it? I know it's not completed at that point, but you missed out on a large part of it. Even in a pure f2p game with cash shop, if the cash shop sells power, you are paying to skip out on trying to obtain that power. It just seems like a sure fire way for the game to have a shorter lifespam per player to me.
Pretty much covers it. Players of the NA/EU Lineage 2 servers at release probably have a plethora of horror stories to share on this topic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The new "gold sellers" are the game companies themselves. Except now the companies are trying to force everyone to purchase their "gold" instead of those outside gold farm/selling "companies". The scam part of the whole thing is just now that WE are getting screwed in the long run. Games are becoming less and less fun.
Let's party like it is 1863!
Yes I am. I not ready to believe that this is an overall change in gaming. I more inclined to think this is the sentiments of the GW2 fanbase.
Wow best first post ever.
Why not huh?
Partly.
Personally, I feel like I'm defeating the purpose of the game. The fun is earning the stuff yourself, not putting in your credit card and having it appear.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Isn't that just making it more convenient for the buyer? What is being bought does not change.
Its pretty easy to explain really. IRL a far greater number of people are concerned with creating the illusion of their own competence then actually being competent. You see it all the time, its just the reality of an increasingly psychotic society... The illusion of honesty is more important then actually being honest...the illusion of wealth is more important then actually being wealthy.
People are perfectly happy to spend money avoiding actually playing the game to achieve their goals in game in order to gain an advantage.
Its a very Asian way of looking at things. Personally its caused me to stop treating MMO's as anything more then single player (or duo player with my wife) games with poor stories and lots of character development. It makes the games short lived but if I wait 6 months after release (when the crowd leaves) I can usually play easily and for cheap so its not all bad.