Originally posted by ignore_me To me that means you lack a frame of reference, and any game would be fine for you because of your low content needs. If casuals are "everybody" then I guess you win.
Just because he is a very casual player does not mean he would enjoy any game. Such assertion is very preposterous.
The point is, you do not know how SWTOR demographics look like nor what players want and from development perspective, it is way reasonable to focus on players you have rather than players you don't...
To me that means you lack a frame of reference, and any game would be fine for you because of your low content needs. If casuals are "everybody" then I guess you win.
Just because he is a very casual player does not mean he would enjoy any game. Such assertion is very preposterous.
The point is, you do not know how SWTOR demographics look like nor what players want and from development perspective, it is way reasonable to focus on players you have rather than players you don't...
It means that as he plays a short amount of time, the threshold is lower. If you play less generally you need less. I don't know how that is inaccurate.
You don't know what the demographics are either, so what's the point? We are both speaking from ignorance? fine, I accept that.
Originally posted by ignore_me It means that as he plays a short amount of time, the threshold is lower. If you play less generally you need less. I don't know how that is inaccurate.You don't know what the demographics are either, so what's the point? We are both speaking from ignorance? fine, I accept that.
1) It is inaccurate in assertion that he would play any game as long as there is "enough" content and that it is due "lack" of content people are leaving the game.
Can you support such idea with evidence that at majority of SWTOR leavers have at least x number of lvl 50 characters? etc.
2) The point is, I am not standing here claiming what changes are "needed"...
EVE Online gains players year after year simply because of the play features they included too retain veterans. Though to my amuseent they also have one of the lowest retetion rates of new, incoming, players (but that's a differing topic.)
Source...?
Also just a few notes:
1) EVE stopped growing a year ago and the sub numbers are rather stale for now. 2) EVE needed almost 10 years to get 350k subs...
In a nut shell, my source regarding new player retension (which is what I think you are asking for) is the CCP development team from both their blogs and current forum posts. They have been soliciting feedback regarding improving the new player experience to deal with this issue for some time now.
HERE is a link to an introductory article from Massively.
HERE is CCP Legion’s blog that began the feedback drive though forum topics from before hand are where it all really came out first. I am just feeling too lazy to do all the searching myself this morning.
HERE is MMO Data’s chart showing current EVE populations and it goes to 450K when the Chinese population is included. While they have shown a few dips over the years, even now they showing a trend back upward again.
By no means is EVE perfect. I have a metric ton of issues with it. Sure, they built by “retaining” players over 10 years. However, if a game like SWTOR with a massive up front potential player population and easy to get into game mechanics had of been built with more attention paid to retaining their veteran players (like EVE did) rather than the run in / run out the gate theme park philosophy then don’t you think they would be doing a HECKUVA lot better than they are right now? It’s food for thought anyway and a major problem in current MMORPG design philosophy from my personal perspective.
It means that as he plays a short amount of time, the threshold is lower. If you play less generally you need less. I don't know how that is inaccurate.
You don't know what the demographics are either, so what's the point? We are both speaking from ignorance? fine, I accept that.
1) It is inaccurate in assertion that he would play any game as long as there is "enough" content and that it is due "lack" of content people are leaving the game.
Can you support such idea with evidence that at majority of SWTOR leavers have at least x number of lvl 50 characters? etc.
2) The point is, I am not standing here claiming what changes are "needed"...
1) That's a function of satisfaction. He will play until he gets bored, it's going to be harder to get bored when you play very little. If you want to disbelieve all of the posters, commentators, and others who have left for precisely that reason (to include my guild), then go ahead.
2) Yes you are refuting that changes are needed, so your burden is to defend the status quo. I'm waiting for the proof of the fantastic success.
Are we really doing "who's more fanatical, EVE fans or SWTOR fans"?
Haven't we had more than enough of both yet? (Ah, my mistake, it's good old SWG again?)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I've changed my mind. This is all a conspiracy. [mod edit]
SWTOR actually has retained 1.3 million subs, and the developers are 99% done with open 3d space as well as optimization of the engine to alow Planetside-like battles. I'm pretty sure there is a quasi-permanent rainbow over Austin as well.
Originally posted by Crazy_Stick In a nut shell, my source regarding new player retension (which is what I think you are asking for) is the CCP development team from both their blogs and current forum posts. They have been soliciting feedback regarding improving the new player experience to deal with this issue for some time now. HERE is a link to an introductory article from Massively. HERE is CCP Legions blog that began the feedback drive though forum topics from before hand are where it all really came out first. I am just feeling too lazy to do all the searching myself this morning. HERE is MMO Datas chart showing current EVE populations and it goes to 450K when the Chinese population is included. While they have shown a few dips over the years, even now they showing a trend back upward again. By no means is EVE perfect. I have a metric ton of issues with it. Sure, they built by retaining players over 10 years. However, if a game like SWTOR with a massive up front potential player population and easy to get into game mechanics had of been built with more attention paid to retaining their veteran players (like EVE did) rather than the run in / run out the gate theme park philosophy then dont you think they would be doing a HECKUVA lot better than they are right now? Its food for thought anyway and a major problem in current MMORPG design philosophy from my personal perspective.
Neither of the links you provided speaks about retention rate nor there is any comparison to other games.
You are also contradicting yourself in your statement, or at least you make yourself very difficult to comprehend.
If EVE Online gains their numbers through retaining players, it does not make sense to have low retention rate.
They will survive but with warhamer like numbers. Just because folks will play it because it is a star wars ip.
That was the case with SWG, but not for SWTOR, unless thay make it more into a MMO than a single player game, or start adding in weekly/monthly content like Cryptic do with STO. Even after all the layoffs I think EA will have more staff for SWTOR than Cryptic has for STO, but they still are not doing enough with game. Maybe they are too busy restructuring at the moment and when things settle down, they will get organised?
Also SWG was based around the original trilogy, where you get all the classic Star Wars stuff. SWTOR is just a rip off of the original trilogy. KOTOR was not that bad. I will probably keep playing KOTOR more so than SWTOR even it goes F2P, after I am done with SWTOR, which is not long, in its current state.
What does galaxies being based around the original trilogy have to do with anything it's not like the game world was "alive" with characters etc. from that era, as I remember it you may have gotten to "speak" with each character from that era like once in your legacy quest line, hardly a reason for a person to feel they have to play SWG while forgoing the old republic which is SWGs equal in star wars scenery. What classic "stuff" does SWG offer that SWTOR doesn't have an equivalent of.
As a Star wars fan and a player of galaxies I was always disappointed that Galaxies only looked like the star wars universe, or better yet it felt like some kind of farmville version of it because even while enjoying it I often asked myself since when has star wars ever been about what the hell uncle owen's life was like? When were the dancers/entertainers in star wars ever given the kind of spotlight they got in galaxies, do you remember any prominent character from the original trilogy who was a doctor?
Anything that is considered iconic star wars lore appears in SWTOR as equally if not more so than in Galaxies.
The reason why you have to delve into the lives of Uncle Owen, and Oola, and The Bartender at the Cantina is because SWTOR shows that you can't be the galactic hero 24/7 with no ability to impact your world. The mind rejects it as a picture with too few colors. Heroic is only heroic if there is some contrast.
When you can show me that SWG did better than SWTOR in it's entire run you would have a point but since SWG failed your point holds no weight, SWG has shown that the masses sure didn't want to be those characters and you telling us that is how you fealt doesn't invalidate the fact that many gamers like myself could have cared less to live that life and would have been mucch more pleased with SWG if it had in fact been much more like SWTOR is now or if the NGE turned it all the way into a swtor like game as oppposed to the half assed version of a themepark it became with the single quest line.
"What classic "stuff" does SWG offer that SWTOR doesn't have an equivalent of." Exactly, it shouldn't do. SWTOR should rely on its own timeline, and not the original trilogy. Smugglers thousands of years ago really all look and act like Han and call people "kid"? I don't think so. KOTOR handled things much better, it seemed like you were in the STar Wars universe thousands of years before the Original Trilogy
SWG failed? Not really. It lasted 8.5 years and took 6 years to do server merges, because LA and SOE did not give up on the game, not six months like SWTOR as they have given up on the game. SWG only got shut down as LA got greedy, not because it was dead or failed.
Swtor could be saved, but i doubt they will spend the money to rebuild the game so i doubt it will be saved. I know personally I will never buy another origin/EA game. Not even if there was a fire.
Originally posted by ignore_me 1) That's a function of satisfaction. He will play until he gets bored, it's going to be harder to get bored when you play very little. If you want to disbelieve all of the posters, commentators, and others who have left for precisely that reason (to include my guild), then go ahead. 2) Yes you are refuting that changes are needed, so your burden is to defend the status quo. I'm waiting for the proof of the fantastic success.
1) No, it is not. You only assume everyone is playing the game until cap. As I asked you before, do you have any evidence to support such assertion?
2) No, it is your burden to prove that such changes would actually attract anyone else but you... which is the point here, you can't. You only base your opinion on your own experience or your miniscule irrelevant sample of "posters, commentators and others who left precisely for that reason(including your guild)"...you are still a drop in the bucket.
Yes the people playing it now seem to be pretty die hard so I don't see it going down too much.
Actually pretty normal in declining populations.
It's how those "classic" MMOs have survived for this long...the fewer people remain, the more um...dedicated they are.
Disclaimer: General observation, not intended to start any fights, personal observation only, subject to contrary opinions.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Yes the people playing it now seem to be pretty die hard so I don't see it going down too much.
Actually pretty normal in declining populations.
It's how those "classic" MMOs have survived for this long...the fewer people remain, the more um...dedicated they are.
I guess to answer the actual question. It is not impossible that it will survive so that makes it possible. I mean. . The Realm is still running. The only difference I see here is EA. . they might shut it down at some point but I think the embarrassment and actually pissing off the people that like the game leaving them a complete failure would keep them from doing that for a bit.
they might shut it down at some point but I think the embarrassment and actually pissing off the people that like the game leaving them a complete failure would keep them from doing that for a bit.
Maybe. MMOs are historically damned hard to "kill".
If we've got to rub crystal balls, the money's on "EA pulls the plug, eventually". That's a nice safe bet, eventually could mean this month, or ten years down the road. If it never happens, no one will remember!
All set up for "I told you so" now, guys.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
1) That's a function of satisfaction. He will play until he gets bored, it's going to be harder to get bored when you play very little. If you want to disbelieve all of the posters, commentators, and others who have left for precisely that reason (to include my guild), then go ahead.
2) Yes you are refuting that changes are needed, so your burden is to defend the status quo. I'm waiting for the proof of the fantastic success.
1) No, it is not. You only assume everyone is playing the game until cap. As I asked you before, do you have any evidence to support such assertion?
2) No, it is your burden to prove that such changes would actually attract anyone else but you... which is the point here, you can't. You only base your opinion on your own experience or your miniscule irrelevant sample of "posters, commentators and others who left precisely for that reason(including your guild)"...you are still a drop in the bucket.
Actually you are the one who asked for an evidence based proof. You said (and I agreed) that neither of us knows what the numbers are for sure.
Do you have proof of why they left? Or is it your position that they are still there happily playing SWTOR ?
And you are a drop in the bucket as well, so again with the circle. I never said it wasn't my opinion that those changes are needed, and I would even say that the assumption was that I was one guy saying that those changes are needed. I will go on record right now stating that I do not represent any organization, association, or government entity that charts the population of SWTOR. In pointing out that I am a lone poster, you have successfully bullseyed the obvious. Good job.
Good luck on your crusade. It will be an uphill battle til the day you unsub, and at that point I hope you remember this dialogue.
With all the Doom and Gloom posters on this thread, I will say TOR will survive, just so I can tell them I told you so later
With all seriousness, <imo> TOR isn't going anywhere, it's Star Wars and not just some Asian Grinder we see hundreds of. If EA can keep Warhammer Online afloat, Star Wars isn't going anywhere anytime soon unless Lucas says otherwise.
I am not a big fan of SWToR but I did enjoy my time in the game, it wasn't enough to hook me for a long haul. However I am a huge fan of the Star Wars Universe in general and will revisit SWToR later down the road, maybe the game will improve within the year.
The closest I got to my Star Wars experience was when Star Wars Galaxies was released back in 2003.
In a nut shell, my source regarding new player retension (which is what I think you are asking for) is the CCP development team from both their blogs and current forum posts. They have been soliciting feedback regarding improving the new player experience to deal with this issue for some time now. HERE is a link to an introductory article from Massively. HERE is CCP Legion’s blog that began the feedback drive though forum topics from before hand are where it all really came out first. I am just feeling too lazy to do all the searching myself this morning. HERE is MMO Data’s chart showing current EVE populations and it goes to 450K when the Chinese population is included. While they have shown a few dips over the years, even now they showing a trend back upward again. By no means is EVE perfect. I have a metric ton of issues with it. Sure, they built by “retaining” players over 10 years. However, if a game like SWTOR with a massive up front potential player population and easy to get into game mechanics had of been built with more attention paid to retaining their veteran players (like EVE did) rather than the run in / run out the gate theme park philosophy then don’t you think they would be doing a HECKUVA lot better than they are right now? It’s food for thought anyway and a major problem in current MMORPG design philosophy from my personal perspective.
Neither of the links you provided speaks about retention rate nor there is any comparison to other games.
You are also contradicting yourself in your statement, or at least you make yourself very difficult to comprehend.
If EVE Online gains their numbers through retaining players, it does not make sense to have low retention rate.
Both articles clearly relate to the retension of more new players through improving the newbie experience even if they may not give you the specific numbers you want to graph and both indicate it’s an issue. I am not being contradictory you simply are not thinking clearly on your own merit but its early so you’re forgiven. EVE gets a lot of new trials and the ones that do make it through stick with the game for the long term.This is a well known fact you may research further for yourself as it’s not fair to expect me to spoon feed you basics. Obviously, by improving the new player experience it’s felt they could do yet better. However, understand I only use the game as an example to make a point regarding SWTOR. EVE is not and has not been the main focus of my posts.
Yes the people playing it now seem to be pretty die hard so I don't see it going down too much.
Only until they have done the stories and reached level 50,
I am playing the game right now, but can say I will not be soon. There are not enough game elements for me to stick at it, like there is in other MMOs.
Also peoples 6 months subs run out in a months time, and then comes GW2, WOWs expansion and LOTRO expansion, and there is Dust 514, so once in Sep we shall see who really is die hard for the game
Comments
I'll go back to DAOC b4 I go back to pandabears/pokemon or gw2.
Just because he is a very casual player does not mean he would enjoy any game. Such assertion is very preposterous.
The point is, you do not know how SWTOR demographics look like nor what players want and from development perspective, it is way reasonable to focus on players you have rather than players you don't...
It means that as he plays a short amount of time, the threshold is lower. If you play less generally you need less. I don't know how that is inaccurate.
You don't know what the demographics are either, so what's the point? We are both speaking from ignorance? fine, I accept that.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
1) It is inaccurate in assertion that he would play any game as long as there is "enough" content and that it is due "lack" of content people are leaving the game.
Can you support such idea with evidence that at majority of SWTOR leavers have at least x number of lvl 50 characters? etc.
2) The point is, I am not standing here claiming what changes are "needed"...
In a nut shell, my source regarding new player retension (which is what I think you are asking for) is the CCP development team from both their blogs and current forum posts. They have been soliciting feedback regarding improving the new player experience to deal with this issue for some time now.
HERE is a link to an introductory article from Massively.
HERE is CCP Legion’s blog that began the feedback drive though forum topics from before hand are where it all really came out first. I am just feeling too lazy to do all the searching myself this morning.
HERE is MMO Data’s chart showing current EVE populations and it goes to 450K when the Chinese population is included. While they have shown a few dips over the years, even now they showing a trend back upward again.
By no means is EVE perfect. I have a metric ton of issues with it. Sure, they built by “retaining” players over 10 years. However, if a game like SWTOR with a massive up front potential player population and easy to get into game mechanics had of been built with more attention paid to retaining their veteran players (like EVE did) rather than the run in / run out the gate theme park philosophy then don’t you think they would be doing a HECKUVA lot better than they are right now? It’s food for thought anyway and a major problem in current MMORPG design philosophy from my personal perspective.
1) That's a function of satisfaction. He will play until he gets bored, it's going to be harder to get bored when you play very little. If you want to disbelieve all of the posters, commentators, and others who have left for precisely that reason (to include my guild), then go ahead.
2) Yes you are refuting that changes are needed, so your burden is to defend the status quo. I'm waiting for the proof of the fantastic success.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Are we really doing "who's more fanatical, EVE fans or SWTOR fans"?
Haven't we had more than enough of both yet? (Ah, my mistake, it's good old SWG again?)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
If by "survive" you mean "stay P2P", I doubt it.
But then I'd doubt it even without GW2 and MoP releases anyway...
I've changed my mind. This is all a conspiracy. [mod edit]
SWTOR actually has retained 1.3 million subs, and the developers are 99% done with open 3d space as well as optimization of the engine to alow Planetside-like battles. I'm pretty sure there is a quasi-permanent rainbow over Austin as well.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Neither of the links you provided speaks about retention rate nor there is any comparison to other games.
You are also contradicting yourself in your statement, or at least you make yourself very difficult to comprehend.
If EVE Online gains their numbers through retaining players, it does not make sense to have low retention rate.
"What classic "stuff" does SWG offer that SWTOR doesn't have an equivalent of." Exactly, it shouldn't do. SWTOR should rely on its own timeline, and not the original trilogy. Smugglers thousands of years ago really all look and act like Han and call people "kid"? I don't think so. KOTOR handled things much better, it seemed like you were in the STar Wars universe thousands of years before the Original Trilogy
SWG failed? Not really. It lasted 8.5 years and took 6 years to do server merges, because LA and SOE did not give up on the game, not six months like SWTOR as they have given up on the game. SWG only got shut down as LA got greedy, not because it was dead or failed.
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
I think it's silly to assume that everyone is going to rush off to those games. for instance I would rather play SWToR than WoW.
GW2? It's a fine game but I'm not sure it's my cup of tea. Whereas I really enjoyed my time in SWToR until I got to level cap.
I'd play SWToR again.
I think it comes down to different strokes for different folks.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yes the people playing it now seem to be pretty die hard so I don't see it going down too much.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
1) No, it is not. You only assume everyone is playing the game until cap. As I asked you before, do you have any evidence to support such assertion?
2) No, it is your burden to prove that such changes would actually attract anyone else but you... which is the point here, you can't. You only base your opinion on your own experience or your miniscule irrelevant sample of "posters, commentators and others who left precisely for that reason(including your guild)"...you are still a drop in the bucket.
Give it a lotro f2p model and ill drop by from time to time.
I really liked the PvP and spend a half year all my effords into SWTOR.
The result was disapointing, the broken targeting and the skilldelays ruined the game for me at one point.
.. lolwot, they still have 1.3 ?! .. oh dear ...
Actually pretty normal in declining populations.
It's how those "classic" MMOs have survived for this long...the fewer people remain, the more um...dedicated they are.
Disclaimer: General observation, not intended to start any fights, personal observation only, subject to contrary opinions.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I guess to answer the actual question. It is not impossible that it will survive so that makes it possible. I mean. . The Realm is still running. The only difference I see here is EA. . they might shut it down at some point but I think the embarrassment and actually pissing off the people that like the game leaving them a complete failure would keep them from doing that for a bit.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Another failer WOW-Killer!
Nothing more to say.
"you are like the world revenge on sarcasm, you know that?"
One of those great lines from The Secret World
Maybe. MMOs are historically damned hard to "kill".
If we've got to rub crystal balls, the money's on "EA pulls the plug, eventually". That's a nice safe bet, eventually could mean this month, or ten years down the road. If it never happens, no one will remember!
All set up for "I told you so" now, guys.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Actually you are the one who asked for an evidence based proof. You said (and I agreed) that neither of us knows what the numbers are for sure.
Do you have proof of why they left? Or is it your position that they are still there happily playing SWTOR ?
And you are a drop in the bucket as well, so again with the circle. I never said it wasn't my opinion that those changes are needed, and I would even say that the assumption was that I was one guy saying that those changes are needed. I will go on record right now stating that I do not represent any organization, association, or government entity that charts the population of SWTOR. In pointing out that I am a lone poster, you have successfully bullseyed the obvious. Good job.
Good luck on your crusade. It will be an uphill battle til the day you unsub, and at that point I hope you remember this dialogue.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
You made a claim, I asked for back up of your claims. What particularly am I supposed to prove?
You seem to get lost quite a bit...
With all the Doom and Gloom posters on this thread, I will say TOR will survive, just so I can tell them I told you so later
With all seriousness, <imo> TOR isn't going anywhere, it's Star Wars and not just some Asian Grinder we see hundreds of. If EA can keep Warhammer Online afloat, Star Wars isn't going anywhere anytime soon unless Lucas says otherwise.
I am not a big fan of SWToR but I did enjoy my time in the game, it wasn't enough to hook me for a long haul. However I am a huge fan of the Star Wars Universe in general and will revisit SWToR later down the road, maybe the game will improve within the year.
The closest I got to my Star Wars experience was when Star Wars Galaxies was released back in 2003.
Both articles clearly relate to the retension of more new players through improving the newbie experience even if they may not give you the specific numbers you want to graph and both indicate it’s an issue. I am not being contradictory you simply are not thinking clearly on your own merit but its early so you’re forgiven.
EVE gets a lot of new trials and the ones that do make it through stick with the game for the long term.This is a well known fact you may research further for yourself as it’s not fair to expect me to spoon feed you basics. Obviously, by improving the new player experience it’s felt they could do yet better. However, understand I only use the game as an example to make a point regarding SWTOR. EVE is not and has not been the main focus of my posts.
Only until they have done the stories and reached level 50,
I am playing the game right now, but can say I will not be soon. There are not enough game elements for me to stick at it, like there is in other MMOs.
Also peoples 6 months subs run out in a months time, and then comes GW2, WOWs expansion and LOTRO expansion, and there is Dust 514, so once in Sep we shall see who really is die hard for the game
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012