the post is the right the stats themselfs are very simple however..
Every char has multipel weps to choose from each with there own unique skills. 4 utility skills to pick from 20 and an elite skill you pick from as well.
70 talent points you can spend in 5 trees up to 30 per tree each with skills your given at 5/15/25 and skills you pick from a list at 10/20/30
Gear has runes and there are literaly 100+ runes each with speicifc uses such as a character with many knockdowns can get do inc dmg vs knocked down oppoents on your gear..
Basicaly the stats are simple but the builds are almots inifinite, It will be a long time before people are using wha they think is there "best" build.
I love to experiment and gwars has all of that and a bag of chips
GW2's stats are intuitive, but that doesn't mean they are simple.
Balancing Initial Damage vs Condition Damage vs Critical Potential is not exactly trivial. The same goes for HP vs Defensive Power. Since everyone can do pretty much any role, nothing is wasted. This created a lot of build potential.
I think the stat system is very well planned. Easy to understand, but it'll take some time to master it, class by class.
the post is the right the stats themselfs are very simple however..
Every char has multipel weps to choose from each with there own unique skills. 4 utility skills to pick from 20 and an elite skill you pick from as well.
70 talent points you can spend in 5 trees up to 30 per tree each with skills your given at 5/15/25 and skills you pick from a list at 10/20/30
Gear has runes and there are literaly 100+ runes each with speicifc uses such as a character with many knockdowns can get do inc dmg vs knocked down oppoents on your gear..
Basicaly the stats are simple but the builds are almots inifinite, It will be a long time before people are using wha they think is there "best" build.
I love to experiment and gwars has all of that and a bag of chips
That more of talent specs which many times the situation will dictate what you pick. This thread is about stats and attributes not talent specs.
the post is the right the stats themselfs are very simple however..
Every char has multipel weps to choose from each with there own unique skills. 4 utility skills to pick from 20 and an elite skill you pick from as well.
70 talent points you can spend in 5 trees up to 30 per tree each with skills your given at 5/15/25 and skills you pick from a list at 10/20/30
Gear has runes and there are literaly 100+ runes each with speicifc uses such as a character with many knockdowns can get do inc dmg vs knocked down oppoents on your gear..
Basicaly the stats are simple but the builds are almots inifinite, It will be a long time before people are using wha they think is there "best" build.
I love to experiment and gwars has all of that and a bag of chips
That more of talent specs which many times the situation will dictate what you pick. This thread is about stats and attributes not talent specs.
Are you trying to say that % knockback does not count as a stat? Or % chance to remove a condition? Or the 9 million other stats that go into building a complete GW2 character?
What is the difference between % chance to crit and % chance to knockback? I think that was where he was going. And I agree that it is something that should be considered.
the post is the right the stats themselfs are very simple however..
Every char has multipel weps to choose from each with there own unique skills. 4 utility skills to pick from 20 and an elite skill you pick from as well.
70 talent points you can spend in 5 trees up to 30 per tree each with skills your given at 5/15/25 and skills you pick from a list at 10/20/30
Gear has runes and there are literaly 100+ runes each with speicifc uses such as a character with many knockdowns can get do inc dmg vs knocked down oppoents on your gear..
Basicaly the stats are simple but the builds are almots inifinite, It will be a long time before people are using wha they think is there "best" build.
I love to experiment and gwars has all of that and a bag of chips
That more of talent specs which many times the situation will dictate what you pick. This thread is about stats and attributes not talent specs.
Talent specs (assuming talents = traits here, based on description) have a very direct effect on your stats, and therefore are fully relevant to this discussion.
Example, a warrior speccing into Strength trait line gains +10 power and +1% condition duration for each trait point invested into that line.
Good question but no, I do not think the stats are too simple. They are universal to all professions so the theorycrafting can be done in traits/gear/abilities with those stats as a backbone for your specific playstyle. Each profession has a multitude of routes to take in what they want to do. If you spend some time theorycrafting with a character builder you start to see how everything is tangled together and you can come up with some really interesting builds.
Though not technically stats, the specific boons and conditions are important to consider when theorycrafting because some stack in duration, some in intensity and some give a multiple stat boost (e.g. "Might" boon gives Power & Condition Damage). These tie directly into stats and are universal as well.
It just appears that posting game bashing misinformation on the GW2 forums seems to be more fun than playing TSW, or even just participating in improving the TSW community of this site. When someone plays TSW and pretends enjoying it, and 90% of his latests posts are on the GW2 forum bashing the game... then there's something wrong somewhere.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
It just appears that posting game bashing misinformation on the GW2 forums seems to be more fun than playing TSW, or even just participating in improving the TSW community of this site. When someone plays TSW and pretends enjoying it, and 90% of his latests posts are on the GW2 forum bashing the game... then there's something wrong somewhere.
Well atleast we haven't seen MMOExposed lately =P
The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.
It just appears that posting game bashing misinformation on the GW2 forums seems to be more fun than playing TSW, or even just participating in improving the TSW community of this site. When someone plays TSW and pretends enjoying it, and 90% of his latests posts are on the GW2 forum bashing the game... then there's something wrong somewhere.
It just appears that posting game bashing misinformation on the GW2 forums seems to be more fun than playing TSW, or even just participating in improving the TSW community of this site. When someone plays TSW and pretends enjoying it, and 90% of his latests posts are on the GW2 forum bashing the game... then there's something wrong somewhere.
RobertDinh Jr. That is how I view him. Or maybe Zorndorf Jr. I miss Zorndorf being on the Aion forums. Fun times.
It just appears that posting game bashing misinformation on the GW2 forums seems to be more fun than playing TSW, or even just participating in improving the TSW community of this site. When someone plays TSW and pretends enjoying it, and 90% of his latests posts are on the GW2 forum bashing the game... then there's something wrong somewhere.
Well atleast we haven't seen MMOExposed lately =P
17 days /played over the last month, forgive me if I take a break... I enjoy discussing mmos.
If you consider this basing you are way to sensitive about the game. Feel free to point out the misinformation if you like.
It just appears that posting game bashing misinformation on the GW2 forums seems to be more fun than playing TSW, or even just participating in improving the TSW community of this site. When someone plays TSW and pretends enjoying it, and 90% of his latests posts are on the GW2 forum bashing the game... then there's something wrong somewhere.
Well atleast we haven't seen MMOExposed lately =P
17 days /played over the last month, forgive me if I take a break... I enjoy discussing mmos.
dis·cus·sion
n.
1. Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.
I'm not sure that this is the word you're looking for.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Yet another thread created by someone who has not played the game at all, taking about features he does not fully understand, to conclude that it is "too simple." How novel.
It just appears that posting game bashing misinformation on the GW2 forums seems to be more fun than playing TSW, or even just participating in improving the TSW community of this site. When someone plays TSW and pretends enjoying it, and 90% of his latests posts are on the GW2 forum bashing the game... then there's something wrong somewhere.
Well atleast we haven't seen MMOExposed lately =P
17 days /played over the last month, forgive me if I take a break... I enjoy discussing mmos.
dis·cus·sion
n.
1. Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.
I'm not sure that this is the word you're looking for.
Why do you think I'm responding to you then? That's why we all are here. You left out #2 btw.
dis·cus·sion (d-skshn)
n.
1. Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.
With only four it's pretty simple to see what will give you the most dmg, and what will improve survivability. No theory crafting needed here.No learning necessary. Do these stats even change from item to item, or are they based soley on level? I assume they vary, but I do not know.
I really wish you would've snuck into the final beta weekend somehow so you would know just a little firsthand information. The stat system is not needlessly complex, just for the sake of appearing "deep". The depth comes from which traits you choose, and that is directly tied into what stats you end up with from your build. Gear provides various stat bonuses, but balanced amount. The best example I can give you is to play around with this build planner. After choosing a profession icon, you can click the three boxes on the right side above the stat window and view some of the various types of items and how they can give you lots of one stat and moderate amounts of a couple others, or maybe a little bit of every stat. The amount provided would be relative to character level.
Originally posted by bcbully
I honestly believe that stat simplification was one of the things that hurt WoW and one of the factor in swtors lack of staying power. The more people have to tinker with the longer they stay enganged.
I know some will disagree with me and that's well within their right. If the stats and attributes are or not is purley opinion and completely based on the player. I do think it is a fair question to ask with respect to the recent trend of streamlining and simplification of the genre that has left theory crafters wanting.
Look more at the major traits for theory crafting, that is where the planning is important as it will govern which weapons your character wields most effectively.
I gotta say... The more these negative threads pop up, the more info, obscure and otherwise, I get to read without really having to search it out, and the more I want to play the game after reading said info.
First we have to establish that the we have seen several iterations of stats during development, and it have ended with 4 main stats that all proffesions can use. No redundant stats, no ranged stats that do nothing for a mellee setup. No physical stat that doesn't work for a magic user and so on.
Any combination of the 4 main stats will do something good for your proffesion. Thats simple, but is it too simple?
Now OP speculates that with only 4 main stats its easy to figure out what gives you most damage and what increase your surviability. And OP goes on saying that no theorycrafting is needed and no learning necesserry. That is a theorycrafting statement and it could be right in theory if it wasn't because it doesn't take into account what stats and attributes are part off.
The main thing here to understand is that stats is part of a build and the main defining factor of a build is the 2 weapon sets. But the 5 other skills can take a proffesion in many different direction. Adding in traits and it get insane how many builds there are.
So stats and attributes is part of builds and builds is nothing but complicated. And requires a lot of work to learn and master.
And as part of changing builds stats and attributes is meant to be altered aswell.
Changing stats and attributes is not only made easy in sPvP, its also made simple with the use of amulets that means that you really don't have to change all your armor every time you want to change your build. That makes it easy to try out changes and see how they do with different stat combinations.
The point is changing one weapon, or just one skill could just aswell gives you reason to change stats. Your damage, control and support change and with that the build might benefit from changing stats aswell.
But mostly that experience will come from praxsis and not from theorycrafting, but learning by playing
May I ask which/how many stats/attributes The Secret World has got?
Offensive Stats
Combat Power
Attack Rating
Weapon Power
Critical Rating
Critical Chance
Crit Power Rating
Crit Power
Hit Rating
Enemy Evade Chance
Penatration Rating
Defensive Stats
Evade Rating
Evade Chance
Physical Protection
Magical Protection
Defence Rating
Enemy Crit Rating
Block Rating
Healing Stats
Healing Power
Healing Rating
Weapon Power
Critical Rating
Critical Chance
Crit Power Rating
Crit Power
So, Weapon Power, Critical Rating, Critical Chance, Crit Power Rating, and Crit Power are counted twice because they're both offensive and healing stats? Not to mention, what's the difference between Critical Rating and Critical chance, or between Crit Power Rating and Crit Power? Half of the stats you list seem to be duplicates because you're listing the "rating" stat separate from the actual stat, when all that the "rating" stat does is give you some amount of the real stat.
Outside of the basic stats (power, crit, defense), about all that's left in your list is stats to modify your invisible chance to hit with or be hit by attacks, which GW doesn't have because there's no random die roll determining if an attack hits, but rather they always hit if you're in the hit area of the skill and never hit if you're not.
I'm not certain if you're trying to intimate that TSW has a more in-depth stat system with more interesting/meaningful choices than GW2, but from the two lists that you posted here, GW2 seems to have a significantly more complex yet easier to understand stat system. I haven't played TSW enough to have an in-depth knowledge of the game, and it may have a great stat system, but if so, you're not selling it well.
I see this thread didn't turn out the way which was intended. I have yet to find anything in Guild Wars 2 which is simple , on the surface a few systems seem to be though. Stats are one of the systems which I found truly daunting when I first jumped in ... they are still dauting when building characters out.
I gotta say... The more these negative threads pop up, the more info, obscure and otherwise, I get to read without really having to search it out, and the more I want to play the game after reading said info.
So... keep it up?
It is good, the more post we get like this one were there is misinformation the more information gets out.
If this is really turning into some TSW/GW2 war, I will throw in my 2 cents.
In TSW. I basically just picked what I wanted to be. Tank, DPS or Healer. From then on, you basically just stacked items with 3-4 stats. Like I said before. Most games with this trinity system forces people down a certain path choice. If you are going to tank, you are going to take more defensive stats. If you are going to heal, more healing stats. Therefore, 70% of the stats in the game are pointless for your character.
I did not feel overwhelmed with stats in TSW. I did feel somewhat overwhelmed with all the skills choices though. I guess the deck system helps with this, but personally, I think the customization is a little too loaded up in the skill tree. Also, there seems like a lack of overall specialization in the game ... especially if you can just swap everything on the fly by changing out skills and gear. It seems a little too open ended, IMO.
GW2 is also pretty overwhelming at times. When I jumped into SPvP on a new character, and had all my skills unlocked and 100's of pieces of gear to look at ... I just choose to not bother and go with the default. However, as I leveled up, I felt that the game introduced you to customization very well. It isn't even until level 30 that you get your last skill unlocked. Traits also stay pretty simple and just less to look at due to the tiering system. It feels more like drinking out of a straw, rather than a fire hose.
In GW2, you also kind of pick a role, however, they are most definitely less defined. On my one character I got to level 34 in the BWE, I chose a more support/control focused build. At the same time though, I always felt I could change my role by simply changing weapons. I might not be spec'd perfectly, but it still works sort of. My guess, is these roles will be more defined as people level up and push stats in one directoin or another. I wlil be interested to see how it all plays out.
Overall though, there are many choices to make in both games. For me, I just had more fun in GW2 than TSW. It is also far less glitchy and buggy. I don't think the skills, stats or specialization systems in either game are necessarily bad, or a reason I would say not to play them. And I definitely don't think either of them seem "oversimplified".
Comments
the post is the right the stats themselfs are very simple however..
Every char has multipel weps to choose from each with there own unique skills. 4 utility skills to pick from 20 and an elite skill you pick from as well.
70 talent points you can spend in 5 trees up to 30 per tree each with skills your given at 5/15/25 and skills you pick from a list at 10/20/30
Gear has runes and there are literaly 100+ runes each with speicifc uses such as a character with many knockdowns can get do inc dmg vs knocked down oppoents on your gear..
Basicaly the stats are simple but the builds are almots inifinite, It will be a long time before people are using wha they think is there "best" build.
I love to experiment and gwars has all of that and a bag of chips
Yeah, basically you need to look at 6 areas when building a sweet character in GW2.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attributes
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rune
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trait
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skill Or http://gw2.luna-atra.fr/skills_tool/
It's pretty daunting to be honest. At least for me.
GW2's stats are intuitive, but that doesn't mean they are simple.
Balancing Initial Damage vs Condition Damage vs Critical Potential is not exactly trivial. The same goes for HP vs Defensive Power. Since everyone can do pretty much any role, nothing is wasted. This created a lot of build potential.
I think the stat system is very well planned. Easy to understand, but it'll take some time to master it, class by class.
That more of talent specs which many times the situation will dictate what you pick. This thread is about stats and attributes not talent specs.
Are you trying to say that % knockback does not count as a stat? Or % chance to remove a condition? Or the 9 million other stats that go into building a complete GW2 character?
What is the difference between % chance to crit and % chance to knockback? I think that was where he was going. And I agree that it is something that should be considered.
Talent specs (assuming talents = traits here, based on description) have a very direct effect on your stats, and therefore are fully relevant to this discussion.
Example, a warrior speccing into Strength trait line gains +10 power and +1% condition duration for each trait point invested into that line.
Good question but no, I do not think the stats are too simple. They are universal to all professions so the theorycrafting can be done in traits/gear/abilities with those stats as a backbone for your specific playstyle. Each profession has a multitude of routes to take in what they want to do. If you spend some time theorycrafting with a character builder you start to see how everything is tangled together and you can come up with some really interesting builds.
Though not technically stats, the specific boons and conditions are important to consider when theorycrafting because some stack in duration, some in intensity and some give a multiple stat boost (e.g. "Might" boon gives Power & Condition Damage). These tie directly into stats and are universal as well.
Effects
Edit: Removed controls section
It just appears that posting game bashing misinformation on the GW2 forums seems to be more fun than playing TSW, or even just participating in improving the TSW community of this site. When someone plays TSW and pretends enjoying it, and 90% of his latests posts are on the GW2 forum bashing the game... then there's something wrong somewhere.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Well atleast we haven't seen MMOExposed lately =P
The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.
Carl Sagan-
RobertDinh Jr. That is how I view him. Or maybe Zorndorf Jr. I miss Zorndorf being on the Aion forums. Fun times.
BOOYAKA!
17 days /played over the last month, forgive me if I take a break... I enjoy discussing mmos.
If you consider this basing you are way to sensitive about the game. Feel free to point out the misinformation if you like.
dis·cus·sion
1. Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Why do you think I'm responding to you then? That's why we all are here. You left out #2 btw.
dis·cus·sion (d
-sk
sh
n)
n.
2. A formal discourse on a topic; an exposition.
I really wish you would've snuck into the final beta weekend somehow so you would know just a little firsthand information. The stat system is not needlessly complex, just for the sake of appearing "deep". The depth comes from which traits you choose, and that is directly tied into what stats you end up with from your build. Gear provides various stat bonuses, but balanced amount. The best example I can give you is to play around with this build planner. After choosing a profession icon, you can click the three boxes on the right side above the stat window and view some of the various types of items and how they can give you lots of one stat and moderate amounts of a couple others, or maybe a little bit of every stat. The amount provided would be relative to character level.
Look more at the major traits for theory crafting, that is where the planning is important as it will govern which weapons your character wields most effectively.10 stats to balance for each profession, all of them useful and desired depending on build.
Build dictates what traits and passives, build dictates choice of 1 Heal 3 Utility and Elite.
Traits also increase 10 stats (primary/secondary).
Weapon selection determines everything.
Gear on top of that, runes/sigils + rings/trinket/necklace/accessory.
Yep, so very simple OP.
I gotta say... The more these negative threads pop up, the more info, obscure and otherwise, I get to read without really having to search it out, and the more I want to play the game after reading said info.
So... keep it up?
OP ask if stats and Attributes are too simple ?
First we have to establish that the we have seen several iterations of stats during development, and it have ended with 4 main stats that all proffesions can use. No redundant stats, no ranged stats that do nothing for a mellee setup. No physical stat that doesn't work for a magic user and so on.
Any combination of the 4 main stats will do something good for your proffesion. Thats simple, but is it too simple?
Now OP speculates that with only 4 main stats its easy to figure out what gives you most damage and what increase your surviability. And OP goes on saying that no theorycrafting is needed and no learning necesserry. That is a theorycrafting statement and it could be right in theory if it wasn't because it doesn't take into account what stats and attributes are part off.
The main thing here to understand is that stats is part of a build and the main defining factor of a build is the 2 weapon sets. But the 5 other skills can take a proffesion in many different direction. Adding in traits and it get insane how many builds there are.
So stats and attributes is part of builds and builds is nothing but complicated. And requires a lot of work to learn and master.
And as part of changing builds stats and attributes is meant to be altered aswell.
Changing stats and attributes is not only made easy in sPvP, its also made simple with the use of amulets that means that you really don't have to change all your armor every time you want to change your build. That makes it easy to try out changes and see how they do with different stat combinations.
The point is changing one weapon, or just one skill could just aswell gives you reason to change stats. Your damage, control and support change and with that the build might benefit from changing stats aswell.
But mostly that experience will come from praxsis and not from theorycrafting, but learning by playing
Nothing simple in that.
So, Weapon Power, Critical Rating, Critical Chance, Crit Power Rating, and Crit Power are counted twice because they're both offensive and healing stats? Not to mention, what's the difference between Critical Rating and Critical chance, or between Crit Power Rating and Crit Power? Half of the stats you list seem to be duplicates because you're listing the "rating" stat separate from the actual stat, when all that the "rating" stat does is give you some amount of the real stat.
Outside of the basic stats (power, crit, defense), about all that's left in your list is stats to modify your invisible chance to hit with or be hit by attacks, which GW doesn't have because there's no random die roll determining if an attack hits, but rather they always hit if you're in the hit area of the skill and never hit if you're not.
I'm not certain if you're trying to intimate that TSW has a more in-depth stat system with more interesting/meaningful choices than GW2, but from the two lists that you posted here, GW2 seems to have a significantly more complex yet easier to understand stat system. I haven't played TSW enough to have an in-depth knowledge of the game, and it may have a great stat system, but if so, you're not selling it well.
I see this thread didn't turn out the way which was intended. I have yet to find anything in Guild Wars 2 which is simple , on the surface a few systems seem to be though. Stats are one of the systems which I found truly daunting when I first jumped in ... they are still dauting when building characters out.
It is good, the more post we get like this one were there is misinformation the more information gets out.
If this is really turning into some TSW/GW2 war, I will throw in my 2 cents.
In TSW. I basically just picked what I wanted to be. Tank, DPS or Healer. From then on, you basically just stacked items with 3-4 stats. Like I said before. Most games with this trinity system forces people down a certain path choice. If you are going to tank, you are going to take more defensive stats. If you are going to heal, more healing stats. Therefore, 70% of the stats in the game are pointless for your character.
I did not feel overwhelmed with stats in TSW. I did feel somewhat overwhelmed with all the skills choices though. I guess the deck system helps with this, but personally, I think the customization is a little too loaded up in the skill tree. Also, there seems like a lack of overall specialization in the game ... especially if you can just swap everything on the fly by changing out skills and gear. It seems a little too open ended, IMO.
GW2 is also pretty overwhelming at times. When I jumped into SPvP on a new character, and had all my skills unlocked and 100's of pieces of gear to look at ... I just choose to not bother and go with the default. However, as I leveled up, I felt that the game introduced you to customization very well. It isn't even until level 30 that you get your last skill unlocked. Traits also stay pretty simple and just less to look at due to the tiering system. It feels more like drinking out of a straw, rather than a fire hose.
In GW2, you also kind of pick a role, however, they are most definitely less defined. On my one character I got to level 34 in the BWE, I chose a more support/control focused build. At the same time though, I always felt I could change my role by simply changing weapons. I might not be spec'd perfectly, but it still works sort of. My guess, is these roles will be more defined as people level up and push stats in one directoin or another. I wlil be interested to see how it all plays out.
Overall though, there are many choices to make in both games. For me, I just had more fun in GW2 than TSW. It is also far less glitchy and buggy. I don't think the skills, stats or specialization systems in either game are necessarily bad, or a reason I would say not to play them. And I definitely don't think either of them seem "oversimplified".