When you consider all the traits and such you wind up with a pretty big list really. Just try building out something for sPvP.
Its just low on personal stats like Strength or intelligence. When comes to things you can increase via traits and equipments + procs it turns out to be pretty big.
Not as complex as a City of Heroes invention build, but no game is really that complex when it comes to builds.
If this is really turning into some TSW/GW2 war, I will throw in my 2 cents.
In TSW. I basically just picked what I wanted to be. Tank, DPS or Healer. From then on, you basically just stacked items with 3-4 stats. Like I said before. Most games with this trinity system forces people down a certain path choice. If you are going to tank, you are going to take more defensive stats. If you are going to heal, more healing stats. Therefore, 70% of the stats in the game are pointless for your character.
I did not feel overwhelmed with stats in TSW. I did feel somewhat overwhelmed with all the skills choices though. I guess the deck system helps with this, but personally, I think the customization is a little too loaded up in the skill tree. Also, there seems like a lack of overall specialization in the game ... especially if you can just swap everything on the fly by changing out skills and gear. It seems a little too open ended, IMO.
GW2 is also pretty overwhelming at times. When I jumped into SPvP on a new character, and had all my skills unlocked and 100's of pieces of gear to look at ... I just choose to not bother and go with the default. However, as I leveled up, I felt that the game introduced you to customization very well. It isn't even until level 30 that you get your last skill unlocked. Traits also stay pretty simple and just less to look at due to the tiering system. It feels more like drinking out of a straw, rather than a fire hose.
In GW2, you also kind of pick a role, however, they are most definitely less defined. On my one character I got to level 34 in the BWE, I chose a more support/control focused build. At the same time though, I always felt I could change my role by simply changing weapons. I might not be spec'd perfectly, but it still works sort of. My guess, is these roles will be more defined as people level up and push stats in one directoin or another. I wlil be interested to see how it all plays out.
Overall though, there are many choices to make in both games. For me, I just had more fun in GW2 than TSW. It is also far less glitchy and buggy. I don't think the skills, stats or specialization systems in either game are necessarily bad, or a reason I would say not to play them. And I definitely don't think either of them seem "oversimplified".
As for the whole TSW thing. They are roughly similar in actual number of stats. Both have things like toughness. Both have crit chance and crit power.
Both have heal increasing stats. They are actually quite close. Only thing TSW has is a dodge/block/glance chance. GW2 has no passive avoidance, only acive dodge and skills that cause small duration blocks. But I prefer GW2s design choice for that.
Originally posted by SwissToni I'm chuckling as I'm casting my mind back to Shadowbane...now that game HAD stats!
Ah the days of Shadowbane, its sad they could not secure the servers better and fix the exploits/hacks. Some of the best PvP I have ever had was then. It was all about playstyle and less about LvL/Gear.
If this is really turning into some TSW/GW2 war, I will throw in my 2 cents.
In TSW. I basically just picked what I wanted to be. Tank, DPS or Healer. From then on, you basically just stacked items with 3-4 stats. Like I said before. Most games with this trinity system forces people down a certain path choice. If you are going to tank, you are going to take more defensive stats. If you are going to heal, more healing stats. Therefore, 70% of the stats in the game are pointless for your character.
For pve you are correct, but for pvp there are so many hybrids running around, all the stats matter.
For example I made a Spriest type build. I needed damage, healing, and HP. I geared for HP and dmg. I decided to use passive on hit heals for the healing. I even used protection glyphs lol.
If this is really turning into some TSW/GW2 war, I will throw in my 2 cents.
In TSW. I basically just picked what I wanted to be. Tank, DPS or Healer. From then on, you basically just stacked items with 3-4 stats. Like I said before. Most games with this trinity system forces people down a certain path choice. If you are going to tank, you are going to take more defensive stats. If you are going to heal, more healing stats. Therefore, 70% of the stats in the game are pointless for your character.
I did not feel overwhelmed with stats in TSW. I did feel somewhat overwhelmed with all the skills choices though. I guess the deck system helps with this, but personally, I think the customization is a little too loaded up in the skill tree. Also, there seems like a lack of overall specialization in the game ... especially if you can just swap everything on the fly by changing out skills and gear. It seems a little too open ended, IMO.
GW2 is also pretty overwhelming at times. When I jumped into SPvP on a new character, and had all my skills unlocked and 100's of pieces of gear to look at ... I just choose to not bother and go with the default. However, as I leveled up, I felt that the game introduced you to customization very well. It isn't even until level 30 that you get your last skill unlocked. Traits also stay pretty simple and just less to look at due to the tiering system. It feels more like drinking out of a straw, rather than a fire hose.
In GW2, you also kind of pick a role, however, they are most definitely less defined. On my one character I got to level 34 in the BWE, I chose a more support/control focused build. At the same time though, I always felt I could change my role by simply changing weapons. I might not be spec'd perfectly, but it still works sort of. My guess, is these roles will be more defined as people level up and push stats in one directoin or another. I wlil be interested to see how it all plays out.
Overall though, there are many choices to make in both games. For me, I just had more fun in GW2 than TSW. It is also far less glitchy and buggy. I don't think the skills, stats or specialization systems in either game are necessarily bad, or a reason I would say not to play them. And I definitely don't think either of them seem "oversimplified".
I find TSW neither hard nor overhwleming. But of course I like to analyze and create RPG builds. I did need to put a good amount of work into analyzing the skill wheel and trying things out. A good couple hours of thinking about things. Which is fine because I like that. But that is all I needed to do really. Once that was done game was cruise control other than figuring out the quest
But harder than GW2? Hardly. GW2 classes are, in total, easily more complex and far harder to figure out without actually playing.
In TSW I can tell exactly how a build will play without even playing in. GW2 getting the feel for a new build even in a class you have played a good bit takes time and effort.
The build themselves are far more involved to create, you have just as many stats, but you also have abilties that are simply far far more rich than the active skills in TSW which are basically dirt simple other than some condition they may do. And how your stats will interact with your playstyle as you attempt to play the build is not always immediately apparent.
In the end TSW is still a pretty simple equation of damage out versus healing. The only time that gets switched up is versus nightmare mobs where you must then create a specific build to use the correct conditions. But once you swap in the right build it becomes quite simple again.
If this is really turning into some TSW/GW2 war, I will throw in my 2 cents.
In TSW. I basically just picked what I wanted to be. Tank, DPS or Healer. From then on, you basically just stacked items with 3-4 stats. Like I said before. Most games with this trinity system forces people down a certain path choice. If you are going to tank, you are going to take more defensive stats. If you are going to heal, more healing stats. Therefore, 70% of the stats in the game are pointless for your character.
For pve you are correct, but for pvp there are so many hybrids running around, all the stats matter.
For example I made a Spriest type build. I needed damage, healing, and HP. I geared for HP and dmg. I decided to use passive on hit heals for the healing. I even used protection glyphs lol.
Unfortunately this would probably fail when going against min/max players. Its not a TSW thing though its in all things in general. In other words its ineffective against players who know what they are doing. I think you could agree with that.
As for the whole TSW thing. They are roughly similar in actual number of stats. Both have things like toughness. Both have crit chance and crit power.
Both have heal increasing stats. They are actually quite close. Only thing TSW has is a dodge/block/glance chance. GW2 has no passive avoidance, only acive dodge and skills that cause small duration blocks. But I prefer GW2s design choice for that.
The two games are similar in more than a few features.
For the orange, along with dodge/block/glance/evade/defense there are also the competing offensive stats.
If this is really turning into some TSW/GW2 war, I will throw in my 2 cents.
In TSW. I basically just picked what I wanted to be. Tank, DPS or Healer. From then on, you basically just stacked items with 3-4 stats. Like I said before. Most games with this trinity system forces people down a certain path choice. If you are going to tank, you are going to take more defensive stats. If you are going to heal, more healing stats. Therefore, 70% of the stats in the game are pointless for your character.
For pve you are correct, but for pvp there are so many hybrids running around, all the stats matter.
For example I made a Spriest type build. I needed damage, healing, and HP. I geared for HP and dmg. I decided to use passive on hit heals for the healing. I even used protection glyphs lol.
Unfortunately this would probably fail when going against min/max players. Its not a TSW thing though its in all things in general. In other words its ineffective against players who know what they are doing. I think you could agree with that.
please my Spriest build chokes the life out of guys. Glance tanks face roll me though.
For pve I switch out the fist heals and add elemental damage and support.
I think rather than going back and forth, I think bcbully what you shoudl say is
TSW stats are more complex and better than GW2 , rather just lightly insulting GW2 with sugry words yea?
That way atleast some people will just respond accordingly.
Just my two cents =P
Dont get me wrong I like this thread its /popcorn owrthy but damn it needs some flame in it.
The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.
I'm not certain if you're trying to intimate that TSW has a more in-depth stat system with more interesting/meaningful choices than GW2, but from the two lists that you posted here, GW2 seems to have a significantly more complex yet easier to understand stat system. I haven't played TSW enough to have an in-depth knowledge of the game, and it may have a great stat system, but if so, you're not selling it well.
Ok, I am kind of a TSW fanboy, but yeah, bcbully is really selling TSW badly and just seems way out of his league when talking about GW2.
If I wanted to highlight some of the good parts of TSW, I would say that the HP/Attack rating balance is one of it's key features. Simple but elegant. Since there aren't any classes, it's partly deferred from how much HP you have, which you can tune to just about any number between the base 1970 and the maximum (about 12k?). For each hp you add, you decrease your attack rating which controls your base damage, which affects all attacks.
Most of TSW's stats are incorporated into the abilities themselves, not as base stats. You end up with a lot of customization possiblities. Just looking at the 20 or so top xp earners in TSW you will see a huge variety in builds (just check out http://chronicle.thesecretworld.com/ ). There are some abilities that are a bit OP that you see in multiple builds, but it's something Funcom looks to be handling quite well. With 500+ abilities, they have actually done a good job.
On topic? Well, I don't think GW2 looks any better or worse than any other RPG at first glance. I would probably have to play it for a month or two to actually be able to tell if it's simple or not.
If this is really turning into some TSW/GW2 war, I will throw in my 2 cents.
In TSW. I basically just picked what I wanted to be. Tank, DPS or Healer. From then on, you basically just stacked items with 3-4 stats. Like I said before. Most games with this trinity system forces people down a certain path choice. If you are going to tank, you are going to take more defensive stats. If you are going to heal, more healing stats. Therefore, 70% of the stats in the game are pointless for your character.
For pve you are correct, but for pvp there are so many hybrids running around, all the stats matter.
For example I made a Spriest type build. I needed damage, healing, and HP. I geared for HP and dmg. I decided to use passive on hit heals for the healing. I even used protection glyphs lol.
Unfortunately this would probably fail when going against min/max players. Its not a TSW thing though its in all things in general. In other words its ineffective against players who know what they are doing. I think you could agree with that.
please my Spriest build chokes the life out of guys. Glance tanks face roll me though.
For pve I switch out the fist heals and add elemental damage and support.
This being more a build game I could see how a person with lower skill but a counter build could face roll. I guess my comment is more valid on a game were builds don't determine the results so much. My bad.
If this is really turning into some TSW/GW2 war, I will throw in my 2 cents.
In TSW. I basically just picked what I wanted to be. Tank, DPS or Healer. From then on, you basically just stacked items with 3-4 stats. Like I said before. Most games with this trinity system forces people down a certain path choice. If you are going to tank, you are going to take more defensive stats. If you are going to heal, more healing stats. Therefore, 70% of the stats in the game are pointless for your character.
For pve you are correct, but for pvp there are so many hybrids running around, all the stats matter.
t
For example I made a Spriest type build. I needed damage, healing, and HP. I geared for HP and dmg. I decided to use passive on hit heals for the healing. I even used protection glyphs lol.
I completely agree. I was mainly talking from a PvE perspective. PvP in most more trinity focused games either forces players down a more hybrid path (gearing up more defensively if you are an offensive class/build or healer, and vice versa). Also, I find many games that tank classes seem to get loaded up with a lot of CC type abilities, which allows them to sort of guard/control fights better in PvP.
I have not PvP'ed in TSW, so I can't really comment specifically on it. However, I have PvP'd a ton in past games. And my specialization definitely changes from my PvE role to my PvP role. In GW2 though, I am not sure that is going to be a huge difference. I would think a PvE build would work and play almost the same way that a PvP build would.
Since there isn't really "tanks" and "healers" but more "support" and "control" I could see really any build performing well in PvP. As you need Damage, Control and Support to win in any group based PvP game.
I'm not certain if you're trying to intimate that TSW has a more in-depth stat system with more interesting/meaningful choices than GW2, but from the two lists that you posted here, GW2 seems to have a significantly more complex yet easier to understand stat system. I haven't played TSW enough to have an in-depth knowledge of the game, and it may have a great stat system, but if so, you're not selling it well.
Ok, I am kind of a TSW fanboy, but yeah, bcbully is really selling TSW badly and just seems way out of his league when talking about GW2.
If I wanted to highlight some of the good parts of TSW, I would say that the HP/Attack rating balance is one of it's key features. Simple but elegant. Since there aren't any classes, it's partly deferred from how much HP you have, which you can tune to just about any number between the base 1970 and the maximum (about 12k?). For each hp you add, you decrease your attack rating which controls your base damage, which affects all attacks.
Most of TSW's stats are incorporated into the abilities themselves, not as base stats. You end up with a lot of customization possiblities. Just looking at the 20 or so top xp earners in TSW you will see a huge variety in builds (just check out http://chronicle.thesecretworld.com/ ). There are some abilities that are a bit OP that you see in multiple builds, but it's something Funcom looks to be handling quite well. With 500+ abilities, they have actually done a good job.
On topic? Well, I don't think GW2 looks any better or worse than any other RPG at first glance. I would probably have to play it for a month or two to actually be able to tell if it's simple or not.
I honestly believe that stat simplification was one of the things that hurt WoW and one of the factor in swtors lack of staying power. The more people have to tinker with the longer they stay enganged.
/SNIP
Did your question get answered in regard to the two colored sections above?
If this is really turning into some TSW/GW2 war, I will throw in my 2 cents.
In TSW. I basically just picked what I wanted to be. Tank, DPS or Healer. From then on, you basically just stacked items with 3-4 stats. Like I said before. Most games with this trinity system forces people down a certain path choice. If you are going to tank, you are going to take more defensive stats. If you are going to heal, more healing stats. Therefore, 70% of the stats in the game are pointless for your character.
For pve you are correct, but for pvp there are so many hybrids running around, all the stats matter.
For example I made a Spriest type build. I needed damage, healing, and HP. I geared for HP and dmg. I decided to use passive on hit heals for the healing. I even used protection glyphs lol.
Not sure I buy that tbh.
While that is how I started playing TSW, it's quickly become a small few builds that dominate the PvP instances. I can't even count how many red mist, thor's hammer, and blade builds I've come across. This is also compounded by the fact that you que up for PvP in TSW as a dps, tank, or healer and get your stats buffed accordingly.
I really wish the game played as hybrid friendly as you are suggesting, but my experience with TSW has been anything but.
I'm not certain if you're trying to intimate that TSW has a more in-depth stat system with more interesting/meaningful choices than GW2, but from the two lists that you posted here, GW2 seems to have a significantly more complex yet easier to understand stat system. I haven't played TSW enough to have an in-depth knowledge of the game, and it may have a great stat system, but if so, you're not selling it well.
Ok, I am kind of a TSW fanboy, but yeah, bcbully is really selling TSW badly and just seems way out of his league when talking about GW2.
If I wanted to highlight some of the good parts of TSW, I would say that the HP/Attack rating balance is one of it's key features. Simple but elegant. Since there aren't any classes, it's partly deferred from how much HP you have, which you can tune to just about any number between the base 1970 and the maximum (about 12k?). For each hp you add, you decrease your attack rating which controls your base damage, which affects all attacks.
Most of TSW's stats are incorporated into the abilities themselves, not as base stats. You end up with a lot of customization possiblities. Just looking at the 20 or so top xp earners in TSW you will see a huge variety in builds (just check out http://chronicle.thesecretworld.com/ ). There are some abilities that are a bit OP that you see in multiple builds, but it's something Funcom looks to be handling quite well. With 500+ abilities, they have actually done a good job.
On topic? Well, I don't think GW2 looks any better or worse than any other RPG at first glance. I would probably have to play it for a month or two to actually be able to tell if it's simple or not.
Thank you for your clear and concise honesty on this point, I hope that it prompts some self-reflection and perhaps behavior change on the part of other posters.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Comments
When you consider all the traits and such you wind up with a pretty big list really. Just try building out something for sPvP.
Its just low on personal stats like Strength or intelligence. When comes to things you can increase via traits and equipments + procs it turns out to be pretty big.
Not as complex as a City of Heroes invention build, but no game is really that complex when it comes to builds.
Good read
As for the whole TSW thing. They are roughly similar in actual number of stats. Both have things like toughness. Both have crit chance and crit power.
Both have heal increasing stats. They are actually quite close. Only thing TSW has is a dodge/block/glance chance. GW2 has no passive avoidance, only acive dodge and skills that cause small duration blocks. But I prefer GW2s design choice for that.
With all these stats and attributes ...Why does combat in TSW suck so bad?
Ah the days of Shadowbane, its sad they could not secure the servers better and fix the exploits/hacks. Some of the best PvP I have ever had was then. It was all about playstyle and less about LvL/Gear.
For pve you are correct, but for pvp there are so many hybrids running around, all the stats matter.
For example I made a Spriest type build. I needed damage, healing, and HP. I geared for HP and dmg. I decided to use passive on hit heals for the healing. I even used protection glyphs lol.
I find TSW neither hard nor overhwleming. But of course I like to analyze and create RPG builds. I did need to put a good amount of work into analyzing the skill wheel and trying things out. A good couple hours of thinking about things. Which is fine because I like that. But that is all I needed to do really. Once that was done game was cruise control other than figuring out the quest
But harder than GW2? Hardly. GW2 classes are, in total, easily more complex and far harder to figure out without actually playing.
In TSW I can tell exactly how a build will play without even playing in. GW2 getting the feel for a new build even in a class you have played a good bit takes time and effort.
The build themselves are far more involved to create, you have just as many stats, but you also have abilties that are simply far far more rich than the active skills in TSW which are basically dirt simple other than some condition they may do. And how your stats will interact with your playstyle as you attempt to play the build is not always immediately apparent.
In the end TSW is still a pretty simple equation of damage out versus healing. The only time that gets switched up is versus nightmare mobs where you must then create a specific build to use the correct conditions. But once you swap in the right build it becomes quite simple again.
Unfortunately this would probably fail when going against min/max players. Its not a TSW thing though its in all things in general. In other words its ineffective against players who know what they are doing. I think you could agree with that.
The two games are similar in more than a few features.
For the orange, along with dodge/block/glance/evade/defense there are also the competing offensive stats.
please my Spriest build chokes the life out of guys. Glance tanks face roll me though.
For pve I switch out the fist heals and add elemental damage and support.
I think rather than going back and forth, I think bcbully what you shoudl say is
TSW stats are more complex and better than GW2 , rather just lightly insulting GW2 with sugry words yea?
That way atleast some people will just respond accordingly.
Just my two cents =P
Dont get me wrong I like this thread its /popcorn owrthy but damn it needs some flame in it.
The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.
Carl Sagan-
Ok, I am kind of a TSW fanboy, but yeah, bcbully is really selling TSW badly and just seems way out of his league when talking about GW2.
If I wanted to highlight some of the good parts of TSW, I would say that the HP/Attack rating balance is one of it's key features. Simple but elegant. Since there aren't any classes, it's partly deferred from how much HP you have, which you can tune to just about any number between the base 1970 and the maximum (about 12k?). For each hp you add, you decrease your attack rating which controls your base damage, which affects all attacks.
Most of TSW's stats are incorporated into the abilities themselves, not as base stats. You end up with a lot of customization possiblities. Just looking at the 20 or so top xp earners in TSW you will see a huge variety in builds (just check out http://chronicle.thesecretworld.com/ ). There are some abilities that are a bit OP that you see in multiple builds, but it's something Funcom looks to be handling quite well. With 500+ abilities, they have actually done a good job.
On topic? Well, I don't think GW2 looks any better or worse than any other RPG at first glance. I would probably have to play it for a month or two to actually be able to tell if it's simple or not.
This being more a build game I could see how a person with lower skill but a counter build could face roll. I guess my comment is more valid on a game were builds don't determine the results so much. My bad.
I completely agree. I was mainly talking from a PvE perspective. PvP in most more trinity focused games either forces players down a more hybrid path (gearing up more defensively if you are an offensive class/build or healer, and vice versa). Also, I find many games that tank classes seem to get loaded up with a lot of CC type abilities, which allows them to sort of guard/control fights better in PvP.
I have not PvP'ed in TSW, so I can't really comment specifically on it. However, I have PvP'd a ton in past games. And my specialization definitely changes from my PvE role to my PvP role. In GW2 though, I am not sure that is going to be a huge difference. I would think a PvE build would work and play almost the same way that a PvP build would.
Since there isn't really "tanks" and "healers" but more "support" and "control" I could see really any build performing well in PvP. As you need Damage, Control and Support to win in any group based PvP game.
I was answering and asking questions!!@ ;
all good though
Did your question get answered in regard to the two colored sections above?
No, if I wanted to play a spreadsheet I'd still be playing EVE.
Not sure I buy that tbh.
While that is how I started playing TSW, it's quickly become a small few builds that dominate the PvP instances. I can't even count how many red mist, thor's hammer, and blade builds I've come across. This is also compounded by the fact that you que up for PvP in TSW as a dps, tank, or healer and get your stats buffed accordingly.
I really wish the game played as hybrid friendly as you are suggesting, but my experience with TSW has been anything but.
Thank you for your clear and concise honesty on this point, I hope that it prompts some self-reflection and perhaps behavior change on the part of other posters.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.