"After much worrying and much reading and some experience in game, I don't really buy this line. The game most certainly DOES have gear grinding, it's just capped out once you have filled all slots with a certain level of quality. Doing this appears to be a fairly substantial grind, and I don't quite see what people are saying when they say it's easy to do. The gear is aquired outside of dungeons -- for the most part -- but thanks to interesting crafting and the mystic forge, it is a combination of experimentation, luck, and some grinding elements to max your stats and get the look of the items that you want. I think it will likely take people a while to fully max themselves out, and this is a GOOD THING. This is "motivational activity #1" once people like me hit endgame."
Since you can get the skill points you need to get legendary gear via the mystic forge post-80 by doing just about anything you normally do in the game, anywhere, I contest that while there may be a post-80 opportunity to gain more powerful gear, or gear that is more appropriately tuned to your build, it's not really a grind because you aren't forced to repeat the same narrow swatch of content over and over again in order to acquire that gear.
If you can be crafting, or doing DEs, or engaging in PvP, or "slumming" in lowbie zones enjoying content with guildie alts or just helping out the newbs, etc. and be accumulating the skill points necessary to acquire legendary gear, is it really "grinding"?
No, I agree Meleagar. Maybe its a bad choice of words in this case. To me the word "grind" isn't necessarily a bad thing -- it's something that I want to do. Maybe let's just say you can work for it, it is a good motivation for some people to do all of the other things in the game which are fun (in addition to them being just "fun"), and it will take a long time -- which is good for some.
I suppose my point there was in opposition to those who would say that the best gear in the game is essentially free and trivial to get. I think you will need to work for it -- but as you point out, the cool thing in GW2 will be that we'll be doing fun things, not necessarily boring and repetitive things, to get those skill points or whatever.
I've only raided in AoC, I was lucky enough to be in a great guild, very sociable and competent players, there is definitely something to be said for large scale, well organised group play. I think GW2 has the potential to create the same kind of dynamic with large scale events.
The common downfalls of class/gear requirements can't be the modus operandi for large scale DE's, they are public and therefore can't rely on a strict rule-set of stats and demographic for completion in the same way raids often do. Choreographing an event so that it requires team work, role mechanics and timing for what is in effect an organic PUG sounds like an incredible undertaking. Events like the Shadow Behemoth aren't as complex or as unforgiving as raid content but do require a degree of teamwork, maybe later in places like Orr we will see events that require teamwork on a much deeper level. There needs to be a learning curve for events if they become much more complex in the same way there's a learning curve in tiered raid systems, with events that learning curve starts at level one, hence the whole game is end game, meaning how you start to play is how you progress and continue to play, there is no sudden switch in gameplay when you reach end game, I love that concept.
I really am hoping that as the game progresses that large scale teamwork gets more common and more complex, progression of skill is a great motivator. Anet's history of generating challenging content is pretty good, really looking forward to see how that transposes out of instances in to the world.
As for repeating content, I'm with you OP, as content isn't as static as traditional quest driven games you never know what you might stumble in to. The fact that events are better at involving you in the story (if you pay attention ) than a simple few paragraphs of text helps you immerse more in to your environment, the more immersed the more attachment you get, it's a great system.
There is definitely a sort of progresion in the form of diversifying you character that will be going on post 80 if you want each of your builds to be the best they can be. I suspect that geting the gear for all the build I plan to make will take some time.
Wanted to echo what everyone else was saying and compliment you on the well written post on the game. I have been concerned about the exact same thing which has kept me on the fence about buying the game. Like you I always enjoyed raiding I just always ended choosing the most populated class so it was hard getting in even with friends many times lol. I have to say your post made me excited for the game now, might go pick it up off amazon next week and see fi I can't get it delivered on release day.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I felt disappointed, that the huge earth elemental hands are gone forever, when that event was over.
And then, you met the Shadow Behemoth...
Nope, not yet. I'm only level 11. I think that one is at level 15+ or so in a neighboring zone
You can participate in the Shadow Behemoth event at level 11. It's in Queensdale (near the end of the map, in the swamp).
On my way to a personal story quest the boss happened to be there and people were fighting it, so I joined in the fun. Made it to level 15 today - but the next zone was quite a bit harder than Queensdale.
Good post OP. Character progression is one of my concerns but after testing I'm a bit more worried about just solo PvE fun. DE's seem to be less fun than I would have thought.
I feel like the DE's had very little to do with what I was doing or my ability or really anything. I felt like I ran to the DE circle on the map and spammed AoE's. And that is pretty much what my experience was with the entire weekend. I suppose it was nice playing with others but ultimately I felt like I had little control or interest in wandering into these circles other than trying to stay alive. I felt like yay I just helped people do something but it felt almost exactely the same as all the others. Was I great in this event dunno...did I help I suppose so. Maybe there were too many people doing the same DE's? I'm pretty sure I never started a DE.
The combat was nice despite the character movement. And probably some of the best combat of the genre, but I just have a tough time finding the DE's very engaging.
Good post OP. Character progression is one of my concerns but after testing I'm a bit more worried about just solo PvE fun. DE's seem to be less fun than I would have thought.
I feel like the DE's had very little to do with what I was doing or my ability or really anything. I felt like I ran to the DE circle on the map and spammed AoE's. And that is pretty much what my experience was with the entire weekend. I suppose it was nice playing with others but ultimately I felt like I had little control or interest in wandering into these circles other than trying to stay alive. I felt like yay I just helped people do something but it felt almost exactely the same as all the others. Was I great in this event dunno...did I help I suppose so. Maybe there were too many people doing the same DE's? I'm pretty sure I never started a DE.
The combat was nice despite the character movement. And probably some of the best combat of the genre, but I just have a tough time finding the DE's very engaging.
did you make it past the starter zones to see the later DEs at all>?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Good post OP. Character progression is one of my concerns but after testing I'm a bit more worried about just solo PvE fun. DE's seem to be less fun than I would have thought.
I feel like the DE's had very little to do with what I was doing or my ability or really anything. I felt like I ran to the DE circle on the map and spammed AoE's. And that is pretty much what my experience was with the entire weekend. I suppose it was nice playing with others but ultimately I felt like I had little control or interest in wandering into these circles other than trying to stay alive. I felt like yay I just helped people do something but it felt almost exactely the same as all the others. Was I great in this event dunno...did I help I suppose so. Maybe there were too many people doing the same DE's? I'm pretty sure I never started a DE.
The combat was nice despite the character movement. And probably some of the best combat of the genre, but I just have a tough time finding the DE's very engaging.
If you don't care about what NPCs are doing then yeah it isn't terribly engaging. When you approach a circle you need to be interested in what's going on. It's not JUST escort this dude. It's not JUST collect for that guy.
The escort dude might set up a shop in the next town. The collection guy might run off to lure a bigger monster with your collection. You can't just pickup and drop DEs when they complete otherwise you are just doing the objective not reading the story.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
Good post OP. Character progression is one of my concerns but after testing I'm a bit more worried about just solo PvE fun. DE's seem to be less fun than I would have thought.
I feel like the DE's had very little to do with what I was doing or my ability or really anything. I felt like I ran to the DE circle on the map and spammed AoE's. And that is pretty much what my experience was with the entire weekend. I suppose it was nice playing with others but ultimately I felt like I had little control or interest in wandering into these circles other than trying to stay alive. I felt like yay I just helped people do something but it felt almost exactely the same as all the others. Was I great in this event dunno...did I help I suppose so. Maybe there were too many people doing the same DE's? I'm pretty sure I never started a DE.
The combat was nice despite the character movement. And probably some of the best combat of the genre, but I just have a tough time finding the DE's very engaging.
did you make it past the starter zones to see the later DEs at all>?
I didn't. I'm guessing that was the problem. I know that it has to become more fun later on like most MMO's do.
Good post OP. Character progression is one of my concerns but after testing I'm a bit more worried about just solo PvE fun. DE's seem to be less fun than I would have thought.
I feel like the DE's had very little to do with what I was doing or my ability or really anything. I felt like I ran to the DE circle on the map and spammed AoE's. And that is pretty much what my experience was with the entire weekend. I suppose it was nice playing with others but ultimately I felt like I had little control or interest in wandering into these circles other than trying to stay alive. I felt like yay I just helped people do something but it felt almost exactely the same as all the others. Was I great in this event dunno...did I help I suppose so. Maybe there were too many people doing the same DE's? I'm pretty sure I never started a DE.
The combat was nice despite the character movement. And probably some of the best combat of the genre, but I just have a tough time finding the DE's very engaging.
did you make it past the starter zones to see the later DEs at all>?
I didn't. I'm guessing that was the problem. I know that it has to become more fun later on like most MMO's do.
If you don't care about what NPCs are doing then yeah it isn't terribly engaging. When you approach a circle you need to be interested in what's going on. It's not JUST escort this dude. It's not JUST collect for that guy.
The escort dude might set up a shop in the next town. The collection guy might run off to lure a bigger monster with your collection. You can't just pickup and drop DEs when they complete otherwise you are just doing the objective not reading the story.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
Great post! This is what I've been trying to say when I tell people that there really isn't "endgame" in GW2....at least not "endgame" as they know it. Your "That Damn Queensdale" sums it up perfectly, and I think that's exactly what Anet has been saying their intent was in making the game this way.
Also, anyone, fanboy or not, who has said there is no gear grind in GW2 is flat out wrong. There is no gearPOWER grind in this game, but there is certainly cosmetic gear grind, and even skill point grind, possibly.
I'm glad that you "get it" and realize that if what you're doing is fun then what does it matter exactly what you're doing? Whether it's repeating content, exploring, PvPing, endgame raiding (yes if you think that's fun, there's nothing wrong with doing it), gear grinding, etc. etc. etc., if you're having fun doing it, then screw what everyone else thinks and screw your own preconcieved notions.
I hope your post goes a long way toward getting people to understand why GW2 is a different creature and that that's not a bad thing. I wish just some people would take the time to actually read stuff like this rather than skimming it. But I just assume they'd rather just live in their own little world.
All that being said, if you had done all that and come to the conclusion that GW2 didn't offer what you wanted, that's cool too. To the people who feel that way, I say good luck. I hope you find it, if you haven't already.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
To me, even as a hardcore gamer (Top tier PvP, Hardest PvE, Hours invested into play sessions when possible, Completionist Habits) the one thing that keeps me "in game" is my main character. If I can find a character that I can really feel like I channel myself through in a good way and can control them in a way that few others can, I will never get tired.
In fact, the only reason I got tired of those characters from games in the past is because they were changed through patches and content shifts.
Shadow Knight - EQ
Mage - WoW
Retadin - WoW
Those are the only three characters I've ever had where I felt like everything I did was important until the day I was stricken with the dreaded rework patch.
Excellent post and it really gives me personally a slightly different way to look at the game as a whole. That being said, I think Human Mesmer is going to be the fourth on the list.
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
Originally posted by jusomdude Skimmed over it, but I'm guessing you're an exception, not the norm of hardcore raiders.
why do you say that?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by jusomdude Skimmed over it, but I'm guessing you're an exception, not the norm of hardcore raiders.
why do you say that?
Read the second to last paragraph of my last post. Some people just want to live in their own little world. And they certainly couldn't be bothered to actually think a little differently than they have been.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Excellent post. I hope anyone with doubts similar to those your went into the game with will read the entire thing. You are right on about the game and how it relates to end game and character progression.
Including this last stress test, I've now been lucky enough to have spent 135+ hours play testing the game. Like you, most of my play time has been in the Human lands. I've gone a bit deaper, perhaps, but I''ve managed to save large chunks of the content that was made available to us in these events for when the game goes live. Just like you, I've repeated Queensdale over and over again, but I've enjoyed it every single time I've done it. I played a Sylvari Elementalist during this last stress test, but after getting a little taste of the Sylvari lands, headed right over to Queensdale to do all the stuff I've done before.
There are some events I've only seen in maybe a third of the runs through and a few events I've only lucked upon once. The content is fun, but the element of being able to encounter something you haven't seen before adds to the experience, as does the fact that events can play out vry diffeerently depending on the people who show up for them.
I've tried to get this point across, but it's hard to convey to people who haven't experienced it. I am utterly amazed that I have managed to get 135 hours of enjoyment from the PvE portion of this game, while managing to only experience a small portion of all the PvE content we had access to, which in turn was less than 40% of the PvE content the game will laqunch with.
I know I will have absolutely no problem getting over 1,000 hours of game play from the game. Id there 1,000 hours of individual PvE content in the game? Maybe, maybe not, but the content that the game provides is not only plentiful, but most of it is well worth repeating. The game rewards you for repeating content and the Dynamic nature of most of that ontent ensures that the experience itself will be different from one time to the next.
You are also right about gear in the game. A number of fans have misunderstood the role of gear in the game and what "no end game gear grind treadmill" actually means. There are different quality tiers of gear throughout the game. There are also some pieces of gear that offer differences in the way they distribute their "power budget" for the level/tier the item resides in. Even at the level cap, there will be some effort to obtain all the weapons and armor sets you will want for your character and the various builds you want to play with. The difference here is that the path to getting max stat gear is not unreasonably long, there are different paths to attaining max stat gear and once you get the gear, there is no "gear inflation" treadmill that will make that gear obsolete because some new "end game dungeon" comes along and offers more powerful "stuff".
I think most people understand the level scaling mechaninic, but like you, in the beginning, they don't understand why being able to do lower level content, have it be somewhat challenging, while also offering XP and loot geared towards your true level is actually a really wonderful thing!
One thing I've tried to say when discussion comes to the subject of GW2 "end game" is that I believe that most people, even hard core raiders, will "get it" by the time they actually reach the level cap in GW2. They will get why the old concept of "end game" doesn't really apply here and they will get that playing the entire breadth and depth of the game's content is where the fun is at, rather than the stuff you do to level up just being some necassary grind you need to complete to reach "the end game", where you do something very different.
I get the fears. I get the arguements. However, I also believe that most people who give the game an honest shot will understand, via the experience of playing the game, what they couldn't grasp on a purely acedemic, conceptual level.
BTW, I would say that Queensdale is maybe 4% of the world space, excluding WvW and the citiies, So you can probably multiply queensdale by 25 in your calculation of how much more world PvE experience the game may have to offer. Also, Dynamic Events do get kore involved as you get deeper into the game. I saw the progression even in the 15-25 zones, but it really becomes more apparent in Gendarren Fields, where the Centaur's designs on a large and well defended walled town depend on the state of a network of surrounding events.
I've honestly gotten to the point where I don't play to level anymore. I play to have fn and the leveling just hapens along the way. I want to see the high level zones in the game, but I really anticipate that I will be spending so much time enjoying each zone I travel to in my journeys that I will reach level 80 well before I ever reach a level 65+ game zone. With the way this game is designed, that's ok. It's just as valid a path of progression as some super efficient path that get's someone to the level cap and the level 80 game zone in the shortest amount of time possible.
It's also great knowing that I can take time to fully enjoy areas of the game with out "ruining" those areas for future play-throughs with alts or for revisits with a main. Each zone is going to be good for many play throughs and Arenanet's commitment to free live content expansion, including new DEs for all zones, on an ongoing basis, just amplifies it.
I'm glad you are a game designer, because I think this approach to world building and content design/delivery is much more efficient and offers a much better return on time/money invested than traditional MMO design. I hope that other game designers will "get it" and GW2 will signal the beginning of a new direction for MMOs and RPGs.
This game wont hold any hardcore PVE players attention after the first month. The fact is GW2 is basically a giant MOBA that revolves around bragging rights and cosmetic hunting. You're much better off sticking with WoW/Rift if you want any semblance of hardcore pve.
@OP, Thanks for your post. It was encouraging. I was a raider for 4 years in a good guild. I loved it. And I do somewhat miss it. I read the marketing line that "it's all endgame!" and it reads "there isn't an endgame" to me. I've been half expecting to wander off at 80. I wasn't really expecting to find the game sticky at level cap. Thanks for the positive outlook.
Izak I was a hardcore raider in the wow sense (5 days raiding for several years) and generally spent most of my time on heroic achieves on the last boss, and you know what we represent less than 5% of the community. I realised repeating the same couple of bosses 10 times a night is actually pretty bizzare behaviour, but for those who love that level of repetition you are right- stick with WOW.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Izik This game wont hold any hardcore PVE players attention after the first month. The fact is GW2 is basically a giant MOBA that revolves around bragging rights and cosmetic hunting. You're much better off sticking with WoW/Rift if you want any semblance of hardcore pve.
What's wrong with bragging rights and cosmetics? That kind of stuff can be just as appealing as getting stat sticks off the latest overglorified dungeon that will only be valid up until the next patch/expansion. I'd argue it is even more long lasting because visuals don't lose value, while stat sticks do lose value.
Comments
No, I agree Meleagar. Maybe its a bad choice of words in this case. To me the word "grind" isn't necessarily a bad thing -- it's something that I want to do. Maybe let's just say you can work for it, it is a good motivation for some people to do all of the other things in the game which are fun (in addition to them being just "fun"), and it will take a long time -- which is good for some.
I suppose my point there was in opposition to those who would say that the best gear in the game is essentially free and trivial to get. I think you will need to work for it -- but as you point out, the cool thing in GW2 will be that we'll be doing fun things, not necessarily boring and repetitive things, to get those skill points or whatever.
That was great read OP. Thank you.
I've only raided in AoC, I was lucky enough to be in a great guild, very sociable and competent players, there is definitely something to be said for large scale, well organised group play. I think GW2 has the potential to create the same kind of dynamic with large scale events.
The common downfalls of class/gear requirements can't be the modus operandi for large scale DE's, they are public and therefore can't rely on a strict rule-set of stats and demographic for completion in the same way raids often do. Choreographing an event so that it requires team work, role mechanics and timing for what is in effect an organic PUG sounds like an incredible undertaking. Events like the Shadow Behemoth aren't as complex or as unforgiving as raid content but do require a degree of teamwork, maybe later in places like Orr we will see events that require teamwork on a much deeper level. There needs to be a learning curve for events if they become much more complex in the same way there's a learning curve in tiered raid systems, with events that learning curve starts at level one, hence the whole game is end game, meaning how you start to play is how you progress and continue to play, there is no sudden switch in gameplay when you reach end game, I love that concept.
I really am hoping that as the game progresses that large scale teamwork gets more common and more complex, progression of skill is a great motivator. Anet's history of generating challenging content is pretty good, really looking forward to see how that transposes out of instances in to the world.
As for repeating content, I'm with you OP, as content isn't as static as traditional quest driven games you never know what you might stumble in to. The fact that events are better at involving you in the story (if you pay attention ) than a simple few paragraphs of text helps you immerse more in to your environment, the more immersed the more attachment you get, it's a great system.
Very good post worthy of reading OP.
There is definitely a sort of progresion in the form of diversifying you character that will be going on post 80 if you want each of your builds to be the best they can be. I suspect that geting the gear for all the build I plan to make will take some time.
Awesome analogy and Spock on (pun intended)!
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
On my way to a personal story quest the boss happened to be there and people were fighting it, so I joined in the fun. Made it to level 15 today - but the next zone was quite a bit harder than Queensdale.
"Fire is never a gentle master..."
Good post OP. Character progression is one of my concerns but after testing I'm a bit more worried about just solo PvE fun. DE's seem to be less fun than I would have thought.
I feel like the DE's had very little to do with what I was doing or my ability or really anything. I felt like I ran to the DE circle on the map and spammed AoE's. And that is pretty much what my experience was with the entire weekend. I suppose it was nice playing with others but ultimately I felt like I had little control or interest in wandering into these circles other than trying to stay alive. I felt like yay I just helped people do something but it felt almost exactely the same as all the others. Was I great in this event dunno...did I help I suppose so. Maybe there were too many people doing the same DE's? I'm pretty sure I never started a DE.
The combat was nice despite the character movement. And probably some of the best combat of the genre, but I just have a tough time finding the DE's very engaging.
did you make it past the starter zones to see the later DEs at all>?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
If you don't care about what NPCs are doing then yeah it isn't terribly engaging. When you approach a circle you need to be interested in what's going on. It's not JUST escort this dude. It's not JUST collect for that guy.
The escort dude might set up a shop in the next town. The collection guy might run off to lure a bigger monster with your collection. You can't just pickup and drop DEs when they complete otherwise you are just doing the objective not reading the story.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
I didn't. I'm guessing that was the problem. I know that it has to become more fun later on like most MMO's do.
If you don't care about what NPCs are doing then yeah it isn't terribly engaging. When you approach a circle you need to be interested in what's going on. It's not JUST escort this dude. It's not JUST collect for that guy.
The escort dude might set up a shop in the next town. The collection guy might run off to lure a bigger monster with your collection. You can't just pickup and drop DEs when they complete otherwise you are just doing the objective not reading the story.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
Great post! This is what I've been trying to say when I tell people that there really isn't "endgame" in GW2....at least not "endgame" as they know it. Your "That Damn Queensdale" sums it up perfectly, and I think that's exactly what Anet has been saying their intent was in making the game this way.
Also, anyone, fanboy or not, who has said there is no gear grind in GW2 is flat out wrong. There is no gearPOWER grind in this game, but there is certainly cosmetic gear grind, and even skill point grind, possibly.
I'm glad that you "get it" and realize that if what you're doing is fun then what does it matter exactly what you're doing? Whether it's repeating content, exploring, PvPing, endgame raiding (yes if you think that's fun, there's nothing wrong with doing it), gear grinding, etc. etc. etc., if you're having fun doing it, then screw what everyone else thinks and screw your own preconcieved notions.
I hope your post goes a long way toward getting people to understand why GW2 is a different creature and that that's not a bad thing. I wish just some people would take the time to actually read stuff like this rather than skimming it. But I just assume they'd rather just live in their own little world.
All that being said, if you had done all that and come to the conclusion that GW2 didn't offer what you wanted, that's cool too. To the people who feel that way, I say good luck. I hope you find it, if you haven't already.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
See now, I'm a lot of the same way as the OP.
To me, even as a hardcore gamer (Top tier PvP, Hardest PvE, Hours invested into play sessions when possible, Completionist Habits) the one thing that keeps me "in game" is my main character. If I can find a character that I can really feel like I channel myself through in a good way and can control them in a way that few others can, I will never get tired.
In fact, the only reason I got tired of those characters from games in the past is because they were changed through patches and content shifts.
Shadow Knight - EQ
Mage - WoW
Retadin - WoW
Those are the only three characters I've ever had where I felt like everything I did was important until the day I was stricken with the dreaded rework patch.
Excellent post and it really gives me personally a slightly different way to look at the game as a whole. That being said, I think Human Mesmer is going to be the fourth on the list.
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
why do you say that?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Read the second to last paragraph of my last post. Some people just want to live in their own little world. And they certainly couldn't be bothered to actually think a little differently than they have been.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
Excellent post. I hope anyone with doubts similar to those your went into the game with will read the entire thing. You are right on about the game and how it relates to end game and character progression.
Including this last stress test, I've now been lucky enough to have spent 135+ hours play testing the game. Like you, most of my play time has been in the Human lands. I've gone a bit deaper, perhaps, but I''ve managed to save large chunks of the content that was made available to us in these events for when the game goes live. Just like you, I've repeated Queensdale over and over again, but I've enjoyed it every single time I've done it. I played a Sylvari Elementalist during this last stress test, but after getting a little taste of the Sylvari lands, headed right over to Queensdale to do all the stuff I've done before.
There are some events I've only seen in maybe a third of the runs through and a few events I've only lucked upon once. The content is fun, but the element of being able to encounter something you haven't seen before adds to the experience, as does the fact that events can play out vry diffeerently depending on the people who show up for them.
I've tried to get this point across, but it's hard to convey to people who haven't experienced it. I am utterly amazed that I have managed to get 135 hours of enjoyment from the PvE portion of this game, while managing to only experience a small portion of all the PvE content we had access to, which in turn was less than 40% of the PvE content the game will laqunch with.
I know I will have absolutely no problem getting over 1,000 hours of game play from the game. Id there 1,000 hours of individual PvE content in the game? Maybe, maybe not, but the content that the game provides is not only plentiful, but most of it is well worth repeating. The game rewards you for repeating content and the Dynamic nature of most of that ontent ensures that the experience itself will be different from one time to the next.
You are also right about gear in the game. A number of fans have misunderstood the role of gear in the game and what "no end game gear grind treadmill" actually means. There are different quality tiers of gear throughout the game. There are also some pieces of gear that offer differences in the way they distribute their "power budget" for the level/tier the item resides in. Even at the level cap, there will be some effort to obtain all the weapons and armor sets you will want for your character and the various builds you want to play with. The difference here is that the path to getting max stat gear is not unreasonably long, there are different paths to attaining max stat gear and once you get the gear, there is no "gear inflation" treadmill that will make that gear obsolete because some new "end game dungeon" comes along and offers more powerful "stuff".
I think most people understand the level scaling mechaninic, but like you, in the beginning, they don't understand why being able to do lower level content, have it be somewhat challenging, while also offering XP and loot geared towards your true level is actually a really wonderful thing!
One thing I've tried to say when discussion comes to the subject of GW2 "end game" is that I believe that most people, even hard core raiders, will "get it" by the time they actually reach the level cap in GW2. They will get why the old concept of "end game" doesn't really apply here and they will get that playing the entire breadth and depth of the game's content is where the fun is at, rather than the stuff you do to level up just being some necassary grind you need to complete to reach "the end game", where you do something very different.
I get the fears. I get the arguements. However, I also believe that most people who give the game an honest shot will understand, via the experience of playing the game, what they couldn't grasp on a purely acedemic, conceptual level.
BTW, I would say that Queensdale is maybe 4% of the world space, excluding WvW and the citiies, So you can probably multiply queensdale by 25 in your calculation of how much more world PvE experience the game may have to offer. Also, Dynamic Events do get kore involved as you get deeper into the game. I saw the progression even in the 15-25 zones, but it really becomes more apparent in Gendarren Fields, where the Centaur's designs on a large and well defended walled town depend on the state of a network of surrounding events.
I've honestly gotten to the point where I don't play to level anymore. I play to have fn and the leveling just hapens along the way. I want to see the high level zones in the game, but I really anticipate that I will be spending so much time enjoying each zone I travel to in my journeys that I will reach level 80 well before I ever reach a level 65+ game zone. With the way this game is designed, that's ok. It's just as valid a path of progression as some super efficient path that get's someone to the level cap and the level 80 game zone in the shortest amount of time possible.
It's also great knowing that I can take time to fully enjoy areas of the game with out "ruining" those areas for future play-throughs with alts or for revisits with a main. Each zone is going to be good for many play throughs and Arenanet's commitment to free live content expansion, including new DEs for all zones, on an ongoing basis, just amplifies it.
I'm glad you are a game designer, because I think this approach to world building and content design/delivery is much more efficient and offers a much better return on time/money invested than traditional MMO design. I hope that other game designers will "get it" and GW2 will signal the beginning of a new direction for MMOs and RPGs.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
@OP, Thanks for your post. It was encouraging. I was a raider for 4 years in a good guild. I loved it. And I do somewhat miss it. I read the marketing line that "it's all endgame!" and it reads "there isn't an endgame" to me. I've been half expecting to wander off at 80. I wasn't really expecting to find the game sticky at level cap. Thanks for the positive outlook.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
What's wrong with bragging rights and cosmetics? That kind of stuff can be just as appealing as getting stat sticks off the latest overglorified dungeon that will only be valid up until the next patch/expansion. I'd argue it is even more long lasting because visuals don't lose value, while stat sticks do lose value.