You're missing Vanguard. Unless, I'm blind, which is possible.
Of course, that would make my ability to type this message flawlessly quite remarkable.
vanguard is themepark. not sandbox
Vanguard is a hybrid MMO just like ArcheAge is a hybrid.Both this games have mamy sandbox features,in fact they have more sandbox features than they do themepark.
Having one or two sandbox features does not make your game a sandbox, or even a hybrid. I can think of only one or two features of Vanguard at most that would be considered sandboxy, as opposed to clear sandbox games like UO, Eve Online, Wurm Online, etc.
Putting them all into the "FFA PvP with full loot" category would make readers think about games like WURM or H&H as PvP-heavy - but they're not. That would be an example of factual information that mis-informs the reader.
Rare PVP or not, in H&H and Darkfall (i think) you can be attacked almost anywhere by anyone and lose everything but your skills. H&H is even permadeath (with ancestry). IIRC Wurm has pvp and non pvp servers.
Originally posted by Pale_Fire Also, Asheron's Call and Everquest. I know AC was/is sandbox.
EQ is the first major theme park mmo
LOL that is riduclous. This is why when anyone starts talking about "sandbox" just nod and laugh at them. The majority have no idea.
Or, perhaps you lack the understanding maybe?
EQ1 is definitely not a sandbox when compared to the rest of the genre. Might have been more of a virtual world than today's theme parks, but players could not change the world/direct the game play nearly as much as more sandbox like titles are.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In a dichotomy of themepark-sandbox, EQ is definitely a themepark. By todays standards, it's an decidedly empty themepark, but so are most of the early MMOs.
Larsa, have you considered condensing your list of sandbox criteria? It was mentioned earlier in the thread, several of the criteria are merely stating features that are often encountered in sandboxes, but are not neccessarily defining of a sandbox.
I would propose to keep the following three higher-level criteria from your list:
Persistant, mostly non-instanced world
Player's ability to change aspects of the game world from within the game, either by being able to modify the physical game world or by being able to take ownership of structures in the game world
Open-ended, player driven gameplay
Everything else in your list is either derivative of one of these factors, or comes through the legacy of RPG mechanics. Any thoughts on this?
... Larsa, have you considered condensing your list of sandbox criteria? It was mentioned earlier in the thread, several of the criteria are merely stating features that are often encountered in sandboxes, but are not neccessarily defining of a sandbox.
I would propose to keep the following three higher-level criteria from your list:
Persistant, mostly non-instanced world
Player's ability to change aspects of the game world from within the game, either by being able to modify the physical game world or by being able to take ownership of structures in the game world
Open-ended, player driven gameplay
Everything else in your list is either derivative of one of these factors, or comes through the legacy of RPG mechanics. Any thoughts on this?
My thoughts are that I agree with you. Much of the criteria list is derivative and is not a defining feature but an encountered feature. You are absolutely right in this.
However, I did this for a purpose. If you only have these three high-level criteria it won't take long and a fan of a particular game would come and argue that I should include the game. After all, it's easy to twist words on high-level concepts. But when I break it down to a long list of actual game features it's much easier to just look at the feature list and decide from there whether it gets on the list or not.
I don't claim that my feature list is the correct definition of a Sandbox MMORPG, for me it's just a method to decide whether a game gets on the list or not.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I guess it will get messy either way, with a list too restricting you'll have discussions about games left out because of one missing feature.
Still, you have to draw the line somewhere I guess, might as well err on the narrow side. Good luck with your list.
I wanted to be constructive and add one to the list, but all the games I could think of are already on it. Though I have to ask, what about Second Life? Might be a stretch to call it a game, but as a sandbox?
... I wanted to be constructive and add one to the list, but all the games I could think of are already on it. Though I have to ask, what about Second Life? Might be a stretch to call it a game, but as a sandbox?
Thanks, Naqaj. Second Life has been suggested before but ticks too few boxes from that feature list in the OP. Here's what I wrote in post No. 80 of this thread:
"I decided to exclude Second Live from the list. It's not an MMORPG, has no character development, no crafting and no resource system. Yes, I know one can make stuff in that game, but the stuff isn't made out of in-game resources but pure "Photoshop" work, they seem to have their own editor. The company running the world annex chat-room doesn't call it an MMORPG too."
Please correct me if I'm wrong with that. I didn't play Second Life and only read their feature list and forums.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Added StarQuest Online to the game list. Please check whether the information provided is correct, especially the information about payment model and cash-shop, the game's website isn't very clear about this. I didn't play the game but from the feature list and forum discussions the game fits the criteria outlined in the OP.
@Draron: Thanks. Glitch has been suggested before but is currently in closed beta testing. I list games that are playable by the general public, thus I list released games and games in open testing. I will happily put Glitch on the list once it's released or goes to open beta.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Added StarQuest Online to the game list. Please check whether the information provided is correct, especially the information about payment model and cash-shop, the game's website isn't very clear about this. I didn't play the game but from the feature list and forum discussions the game fits the criteria outlined in the OP.
@Draron: Thanks. Glitch has been suggested before but is currently in closed beta testing. I list games that are playable by the general public, thus I list released games and games in open testing. I will happily put Glitch on the list once it's released or goes to open beta.
SQO, looks about right. Payment model is 9.99USD per month, there are discounts for multi-month payments. (24.99 for 3mo). There is no current cash shop, it did have one at one point but they dropped it when the developers changed. The games development is in a state of flux but it is still a good game worth checking out if you want a sandbox game where you are not the ship.
You're missing Vanguard. Unless, I'm blind, which is possible.
Of course, that would make my ability to type this message flawlessly quite remarkable.
vanguard is themepark. not sandbox
Well Vanguard was unique in that it had the best elements of both. When it was released, I judged it more of a sandbox since the best items in the game were player crafted. That changed and crafting is really useless unless you are involved in making parts for housing or shipbuilding. Since now players can buy ships in the cash shop that also messed up crafting. However, originally, it could not be beat. Carpenters created furniture which could be placed anywhere in player houses and guild halls. there were pretty unlimited decorating possibilities for both. Practically everything you saw in the game could be made by players. I think the cash shop ruined all that so a big portion of the game was ruined.
It does have quests, leveling, dungeons, mobs, etc, which are a big part of themepark. The combination of both game types made it a very unique and pleasant game to play. However, as happens often, developers tend to screw up a good thing. In my opinion, the game started its decline by the decision to place crafting stations in all the housing areas. There was a sizeable crafting community that would gather in various crafting hubs throughout the game world. A player needing something could go to one of these hubs and always find the right kind of crafter to make whatever the person needed. This helped to sustain a very healthy game economy. These hubs were gradually deserted by players. Next they made dungeon drops better than player crafted items, another mistake. Vanguard was a game with three distinct leveling paths. These were the normal adventuring (for lack of a better term), crafting and diplomacy. A player could max any one of these independently of the others. In other words, you could be a level 20 in adventuring and be a level 50 crafter and/or diplomat or any combination of all three. This was also changed where in many cases, a player has to level adventuring to have access to materials and recipes of maximum level. So.... I think the sandbox aspects were relegated to the background in favor of the adventuring/themepark tier. Anyway, thats just my take on the whole thing with Vanguard. Its a real shame
I wanted to be constructive and add one to the list, but all the games I could think of are already on it. Though I have to ask, what about Second Life? Might be a stretch to call it a game, but as a sandbox?
Since sandbox features are predominantly tools and toys, Second Life is not only a sandbox but a great example of the far end of the sandbox side of the sandbox/themepark spectrum.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I wanted to be constructive and add one to the list, but all the games I could think of are already on it. Though I have to ask, what about Second Life? Might be a stretch to call it a game, but as a sandbox?
Since sandbox features are predominantly tools and toys, Second Life is not only a sandbox but a great example of the far end of the sandbox side of the sandbox/themepark spectrum.
I agree, Second Life is a sandbox. But it's not an MMORPG (for example: has no character progression), and that's why it's not on the list. If I had made a list of sandbox games then Second Life (and of course Minecraft too) would have been on this list - but I decided to make a list of sandbox MMORPGs because otherwise the list would have been too long to maintain as a hobby project - there are actually quite a number of non-MMORPG sandboxes around, anyone remember SimCity and the likes?
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I wanted to be constructive and add one to the list, but all the games I could think of are already on it. Though I have to ask, what about Second Life? Might be a stretch to call it a game, but as a sandbox?
Since sandbox features are predominantly tools and toys, Second Life is not only a sandbox but a great example of the far end of the sandbox side of the sandbox/themepark spectrum.
I agree, Second Life is a sandbox. But it's not an MMORPG (for example: has no character progression), and that's why it's not on the list. If I had made a list of sandbox games then Second Life (and of course Minecraft too) would have been on this list - but I decided to make a list of sandbox MMORPGs because otherwise the list would have been too long to maintain as a hobby project - there are actually quite a number of non-MMORPG sandboxes around, anyone remember SimCity and the likes?
I wasn't suggesting it for the list, rather offering an answer to his question of people calling it a sandbox.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by lqw6843128 Wurm has cashshop? u sure?
Linkrealms is in closed beta, and closed beta games aren't on the list.
And Wurm lets players buy Silver with real world cash that they can use to buy items from other players in game, which then you can use to pay for subscriptions.
I wouldn't consider Mabinogi or Free Realms sandbox games. Mabinogi has some qualities, but not enough to call it a sandbox game. Actually now that I think about... I don't know how you can call it a sandbox game at all. The player has no impact on the world and can't change it.
Comments
Having one or two sandbox features does not make your game a sandbox, or even a hybrid. I can think of only one or two features of Vanguard at most that would be considered sandboxy, as opposed to clear sandbox games like UO, Eve Online, Wurm Online, etc.
Rare PVP or not, in H&H and Darkfall (i think) you can be attacked almost anywhere by anyone and lose everything but your skills. H&H is even permadeath (with ancestry). IIRC Wurm has pvp and non pvp servers.
Or, perhaps you lack the understanding maybe?
EQ1 is definitely not a sandbox when compared to the rest of the genre. Might have been more of a virtual world than today's theme parks, but players could not change the world/direct the game play nearly as much as more sandbox like titles are.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Left off Star Quest Online. It is the only TRUE space sandbox. Eve is a space ship theme park.
So much crap, so little quality.
Thanks for the suggestion, Hodo, I didn't even know the game.
I'll look into Star Quest Online in the coming days and will update the OP accordingly.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
i also agree with this statement as otherwise a game in my opinion wount be counted as a sandbox game
My thoughts are that I agree with you. Much of the criteria list is derivative and is not a defining feature but an encountered feature. You are absolutely right in this.
However, I did this for a purpose. If you only have these three high-level criteria it won't take long and a fan of a particular game would come and argue that I should include the game. After all, it's easy to twist words on high-level concepts. But when I break it down to a long list of actual game features it's much easier to just look at the feature list and decide from there whether it gets on the list or not.
I don't claim that my feature list is the correct definition of a Sandbox MMORPG, for me it's just a method to decide whether a game gets on the list or not.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I guess it will get messy either way, with a list too restricting you'll have discussions about games left out because of one missing feature.
Still, you have to draw the line somewhere I guess, might as well err on the narrow side. Good luck with your list.
I wanted to be constructive and add one to the list, but all the games I could think of are already on it. Though I have to ask, what about Second Life? Might be a stretch to call it a game, but as a sandbox?
Thanks, Naqaj. Second Life has been suggested before but ticks too few boxes from that feature list in the OP.
Here's what I wrote in post No. 80 of this thread:
"I decided to exclude Second Live from the list. It's not an MMORPG, has no character development, no crafting and no resource system. Yes, I know one can make stuff in that game, but the stuff isn't made out of in-game resources but pure "Photoshop" work, they seem to have their own editor. The company running the world annex chat-room doesn't call it an MMORPG too."
Please correct me if I'm wrong with that. I didn't play Second Life and only read their feature list and forums.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Not sure if it's been mentioned yet (it's not on the list and I only read the 1st page), but Glitch would be considered a sandbox.
Updated the OP.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
SQO, looks about right. Payment model is 9.99USD per month, there are discounts for multi-month payments. (24.99 for 3mo). There is no current cash shop, it did have one at one point but they dropped it when the developers changed. The games development is in a state of flux but it is still a good game worth checking out if you want a sandbox game where you are not the ship.
So much crap, so little quality.
Well Vanguard was unique in that it had the best elements of both. When it was released, I judged it more of a sandbox since the best items in the game were player crafted. That changed and crafting is really useless unless you are involved in making parts for housing or shipbuilding. Since now players can buy ships in the cash shop that also messed up crafting. However, originally, it could not be beat. Carpenters created furniture which could be placed anywhere in player houses and guild halls. there were pretty unlimited decorating possibilities for both. Practically everything you saw in the game could be made by players. I think the cash shop ruined all that so a big portion of the game was ruined.
It does have quests, leveling, dungeons, mobs, etc, which are a big part of themepark. The combination of both game types made it a very unique and pleasant game to play. However, as happens often, developers tend to screw up a good thing. In my opinion, the game started its decline by the decision to place crafting stations in all the housing areas. There was a sizeable crafting community that would gather in various crafting hubs throughout the game world. A player needing something could go to one of these hubs and always find the right kind of crafter to make whatever the person needed. This helped to sustain a very healthy game economy. These hubs were gradually deserted by players. Next they made dungeon drops better than player crafted items, another mistake. Vanguard was a game with three distinct leveling paths. These were the normal adventuring (for lack of a better term), crafting and diplomacy. A player could max any one of these independently of the others. In other words, you could be a level 20 in adventuring and be a level 50 crafter and/or diplomat or any combination of all three. This was also changed where in many cases, a player has to level adventuring to have access to materials and recipes of maximum level. So.... I think the sandbox aspects were relegated to the background in favor of the adventuring/themepark tier. Anyway, thats just my take on the whole thing with Vanguard. Its a real shame
Since sandbox features are predominantly tools and toys, Second Life is not only a sandbox but a great example of the far end of the sandbox side of the sandbox/themepark spectrum.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
http://www.twitch.tv/got_game_tv/ (livestream)
The War Z Shenanigans(youtube)
DayZ FUNTIME!
Mortal Online Vids
I agree, Second Life is a sandbox. But it's not an MMORPG (for example: has no character progression), and that's why it's not on the list. If I had made a list of sandbox games then Second Life (and of course Minecraft too) would have been on this list - but I decided to make a list of sandbox MMORPGs because otherwise the list would have been too long to maintain as a hobby project - there are actually quite a number of non-MMORPG sandboxes around, anyone remember SimCity and the likes?
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I wasn't suggesting it for the list, rather offering an answer to his question of people calling it a sandbox.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Why isnt Linkrealms on here?
http://www.linkrealms.com/
Linkrealms is in closed beta, and closed beta games aren't on the list.
And Wurm lets players buy Silver with real world cash that they can use to buy items from other players in game, which then you can use to pay for subscriptions.
Ryzom has a native Linux client. Might want to mention this in your list.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/36/view/reviews/loadUR/199
Oops, you're right, Teiraa. Thanks for the information, I have updated the OP.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
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