Thank god for that, ubber items have no place in pvp. They should offer you great looking costume but not ubber items that will help you beat new players with ease.
This will be my new pvp game and the best part, im allowed to take a break to try new games and stil be competive when i return. People wont outgear me so i dont need to spend 1 month farming new pvp gear to compete.
Progressive pvp is a double edge sword, good to retain people but also very bad to get returning costumers.
Yeah...it is going to be pretty cool.
Have to say though that from what I have seen Forge seems like it may be a really cool PvP game as well. Far as PvP goes I may eventually end up switching between the two. That game won't be dealing with tiered itemization either.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
unforuntunately for the great unwashed there is no hiding behind gear grinding here. you have to turn up and compete on an even footing.
If you want progression, Tournaments, ranks and cosmetics are available in structured and PVP specific gear as well as Server rankings are available in WvW.
My job and career is where I progress.
Video games is where I go to chill out and have fun with friends.
Not everyone is sold on cosmetics. This diesn't mean GW2 is a bad game, but for those who do not view cosmetics as a form of progression, there're questions about will GW2 be able to keep their attention.
Which is why all those recent releases have done so well on retention... oh wait.
Clearly, if you're a gear treadmill raider GW2 is just not for you. I'm wondering, however, how sustainable that a la wow treadmill really is for any game that's not wow...
seriously if rift is so damn great an example of pvp why the hell is it about on its last leg for? And why the hell does anyone I know of in real life and forums hate it? Same with warhammer all you heard was people constantly posting i quit threads about how gear progression ruined warhammer in tier 4. Keep your crappy no skill selves hiding behind gear because you can play more then the average joe out of this game because there is no place for it here . Especially when thousands of us do not want a gear grind treadmill in GW2. You have rift , wow and the myriad other clones of wow out there for that , go play them seriously. If this game becomes a gear circle jerk , they will lose any edge they had in people playing this game long term. All gear does is reward power gamers and pre made teams that can play more then average players and cordinate better. Regardless of your personal belief here , that is far from skill sorry to deflat some of the egos here.
OP obviously never played the game, there is a full progression in pve (gear, skills and level), there is a semi progression in World vs World pvp (gear and skill but everyone is at lv80 when entering those zones), and there is no progression at all in spvp (you get same gear, skills and lv as everyone else) but you still gain rewards though like gear skins and others stuff.
Originally posted by mustang2750 There should NEVER be gear progression PvP like WoW w no skill involved whatsoever. With that said there should be some type of progression ala DAOC w real abilities that are PvP specific with at least some type of rank levels for titles or something. I am 100% against gear progression but there should be something to work for personally on ur char other than server pride (unfortunately most ppl could care less).
Ps. I am strictly talking WvWvW here as i have absolutely no intrest in sPvP/Arena style World of Warcraft crap.
Regarding WvWvW pvp abilities:
If you add in abilities that are pvp centric that you gain as you "rank up" in pvp, you might as well add pvp gear. Asthetics, titles, anything that does not effect pvp combat, sure. I know people want some kind of progression but that (I believe) is not the way to go. You end up with people who have an advantage. That is against what the game is about: pvp decided by skill.
unforuntunately for the great unwashed there is no hiding behind gear grinding here. you have to turn up and compete on an even footing.
If you want progression, Tournaments, ranks and cosmetics are available in structured and PVP specific gear as well as Server rankings are available in WvW.
My job and career is where I progress.
Video games is where I go to chill out and have fun with friends.
Not everyone is sold on cosmetics. This diesn't mean GW2 is a bad game, but for those who do not view cosmetics as a form of progression, there're questions about will GW2 be able to keep their attention.
And those people that are obsessed with gear-stat chasing and don't care about cosmetics, thinking it's stupid: well, "this is not the game you're looking for." Those people shouldn't be in this game because they'll get to 80 really fast, bypassing most content, and complain that there's "nothing to do" and the game is "pointless". Those people are NOT the target audience and really shouldn't waste their time or bother other people who enjoy the game with their crazed rantings.
Which is why all those recent releases have done so well on retention... oh wait.
Clearly, if you're a gear treadmill raider GW2 is just not for you. I'm wondering, however, how sustainable that a la wow treadmill really is for any game that's not wow...
That opens up a whole debate really. For many I would argue it isn't how PvP is handled but rather the quality, quantity, and design of the PvE that has been a problem for games as of late causing retention issues.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
OP obviously never played the game, there is a full progression in pve (gear, skills and level), there is a semi progression in World vs World pvp (gear and skill but everyone is at lv80 when entering those zones), and there is no progression at all in spvp (you get same gear, skills and lv as everyone else) but you still gain rewards though like gear skins and others stuff.
I bought GW2 and have played in beta. In my mind, LOL is the ultimate in the gear grinding, pay-to-win game there ever was, yet it was a huge success. So I must not be alone in what I want in a game.
Please tell me there is no progressive PvE after you have collected one set from each dungeon.
If you have the skill to do that, then you have genuinely gotten better at the game; not your gear getting better, but YOU are getting better.
Skill progression > gear progression.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
unforuntunately for the great unwashed there is no hiding behind gear grinding here. you have to turn up and compete on an even footing.
If you want progression, Tournaments, ranks and cosmetics are available in structured and PVP specific gear as well as Server rankings are available in WvW.
My job and career is where I progress.
Video games is where I go to chill out and have fun with friends.
Not everyone is sold on cosmetics. This diesn't mean GW2 is a bad game, but for those who do not view cosmetics as a form of progression, there're questions about will GW2 be able to keep their attention.
You know, at this point, there should be a question about ANY game being able to keep player's attention, whether or not there is a cosmetic gear grind or a "power" gear grind. The difference being in GW2 you can progress, at your own pace, without worrying about a sub vs. current subscription games where you pay to access your toon to engage in their grind, and hope that the developers actually use that money to produce new content.
So let's not pretend that games with tiered gear progression actually hold a player base any better than the GW2 model. In tiered progression, you MUST regularly release new content in order to keep people grinding. Developers have already said they can't keep up with the "content locusts". In gear progression models, only a certain percentage of the player base actually gets to participate, and when you introduce things like LFR, there's a huge backlash from the "elite raiding community".
I would much rather be involved in a gameplay world that had fresh and revolving content that focused on exploration, discovery, and group participation with a progressively more involved, and more consequential system of dynamic events as you level, rather than a game that starts at max level when you hop on the gear treadmill and run the same content for 9 months hoping you get lucky on a loot drop.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Which is why all those recent releases have done so well on retention... oh wait.
Clearly, if you're a gear treadmill raider GW2 is just not for you. I'm wondering, however, how sustainable that a la wow treadmill really is for any game that's not wow...
That opens up a whole debate really. For many I would argue it isn't how PvP is handled but rather the quality, quantity, and design of the PvE that has been a problem for games as of late causing retention issues.
Just to be clear, all I was saying was that treadmills of any kind (pve or pvp) have perhaps run their course as they are currently implemented. I'll leave the greater debate and PVE/PVP specific angles for others
Please tell me there is no progressive PvP after you have collected one set from each dungeon.
If you have the skill to do that, then you have genuinely gotten better at the game; not your gear getting better, but YOU are getting better.
Skill progression > gear progression.
This right here. The game doesnt focus on gear, it teaches you to play the game better. I know im not the only one who detests gankers and trolls in PvP.
Those are the only people that benefit from gear progression and not skill progression. Theres a reason theres no Open world PVP or full loot. It breeds bad communities. The people who want "power gear" grinds are the ones who know they cant stand up in a fair fight. They play games like Tera, and farm people 15 levels below them. Seriously how is that fun?
Be a man, grow some balls, and learn how to play the game. Get big or get lost. An even playing field is the best you can do for PVP and i hope to god other games follow suit.
OP obviously never played the game, there is a full progression in pve (gear, skills and level), there is a semi progression in World vs World pvp (gear and skill but everyone is at lv80 when entering those zones), and there is no progression at all in spvp (you get same gear, skills and lv as everyone else) but you still gain rewards though like gear skins and others stuff.
I bought GW2 and have played in beta. In my mind, LOL is the ultimate in the gear grinding, pay-to-win game there ever was, yet it was a huge success. So I must not be alone in what I want in a game.
Lol is the ultimate gear grinding, are you talking about League of legend? If it is, then you probably don't give the same definition to "gear grind" as most mmorpg player give. Lol have no gear grind from an mmorpg point of view, if it does, first it is very limitated (your base character power is a lot more important than the power coming from gear, which is the oposite case in usual mmorpg) and second it last only for the duration of each game which is about 30minutes, when in mmorpg it last the whole time you play the game, so if you play Lol for a year you actually boosted your character power that whole year. That is what we call "gear grind" in mmorpgs.
I bought GW2 and have played in beta. In my mind, LOL is the ultimate in the gear grinding, pay-to-win game there ever was, yet it was a huge success. So I must not be alone in what I want in a game.
man hearing this gear progression argument is a big laugh there was games before wow which obviously by the comments here that was obviously their first mmorpg. DAOC had zero gear progression in game for end game until trials of atlantis released and guess what people quit chasing that crap because it made the elite even eliter and impossible to kill. This game has just as much to do end game , if not more then any other game thats released since wow and thats on release not 1 year or six months down the road. You have two different types of pvp , one being large zerge vs zerge warfare and the other competitive pvp with ranks and gear. Then you have pve endgame zones that are similiar to raids in other games that are DE and effect the entire zone with how you progress. Its seriously hilarious that people are already crying about endgame progression here and havent even bothered to do any research on things to do. You have gear progression all the way to 80 and then you can chase all the gear you want even from day 1 with SPVP if gear is really your thing.
Seriously what the hell ever happened to players logging into games getting with their buddies and just going out and having fun like in the days back in eq and DAOC. Oh yeah i forgot that sespool wow released and made every mmorpg a solo gear grind that even the most casual player got tastes of purple super stat gear that made them feel elite on a video game.
If you want to Chase carrots in a skinner box, play wow or one of its myriad clones.
Pvp where you progress through skill and learning tricks and hobby your technique sounds way more appealing than pvp where you become more "skilled" by spending 12 hours a day in your moms basement semi afking while watching tv.
It will be good for balanced PvP. Just like in RTS or FPS, there is no vertical progression (usually). Just the horizontal one.
The PvP aspect of the game will be fun and I am really looking forward to playing WvWvW, but when I look at the game as a whole, I find it extremely shallow because of this. As much as the RTS / FPS I mentioned. It is what makes me curious about the longevity of the game.
In an MMORPG, there has to be some sort of vertical progression which does not necessarily mean a gear grind. The progression can take many forms, like skill levels, profession levels, crafting, gear drops...simply anything that makes your character stronger (not crafting cosmetics).
Why would you want that...to have advantage over new players, so you can gank them in PvP? Of course not. For me, huge part of MMORPG is my character's development. The more interesting it is, the more attractive the game is, for me. Without character development, the game is not interesting since it lacks depth and mostly a point. GW sacrificed all this for balance in PvP.
The PvP would not be balanced like that. New player who joins will not be as strong as someone who is playing the game for a year, but it is ok since not every MMO is about one big battleground or structured PvP. Not every MMO desires to be an e-sport.
I wonder if this is really the future of MMOs as people claim in this section of the forum. Maybe for some people, it really is. As soon as we all hit max level and the gear cap, we just all meet in a huge battleground where we are all balanced, so we can just PvP nonstop. It kind of reminds me of MOBA games. I find it surprising for how many people the ultimate top concern in an MMO is balance between players. Should an MMO be only about skills, so it can become an e-sport like SC?
Nice side game for sure just like a RTS / FPS, but if the MMORPGs were all to turn into this, it would sooner or later mean an end of MMO gaming for me.
/in my opinion
Really good write up here, I couldn't have put it better myself.
I will add that even in PVP I dont mind a slight imbalance, I think its natural, that you gain power, specially when it comes to political meta games, I think it is fair that your guild/clan can amass more power. Even if I am on the other side side and am getting the short end of the stick, I like and respect earned power and I think it really does add a whole new layer of gameplay.
This doesnt mean you can't win anyway, I know people like to say whatever is convenient to their argument and one of the things they like to say is that WoW pvp is just about gear and that people care about gear and not skills, which is simply not true, and while gear provides a bleeding edge advantage, and we are talking really really minor advantages, ofc larger gap if you are talking entry lvl vs bleeding edge but you would never go against a bleeding edge team, the same way a farmer wouldnt go against an army with a pitch fork.
Reflexes and knowing how to press the buttons at the correct time ( same thing as GW2 ) plays a very important part and an exceptional player will beat a well geared player and has a fair chance at winning, it doesnt just come down to gear and reflexes there are tons of other variables that come into play, like how well your team plays together, what is your composition, what is your strategy.
This same thing is true for extended ownership of ingame structures, this is something that just doesnt happen anymore, mainly because there is this concept that everything needs to be equal, "if that guild/guy owns that I want to own one too", its not ok anymore to provide something that you need to fight others for and that may be exclusive, but its still there for the taking if you have the organization, no, we can't have that everything must be equal for everyone, this to me is as far from MMORPG as you can get.
As you say progression doesnt just mean more powerful gear.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
What I want to know is: If the lack of progressive PVE or PVP is so much of a problem for you, Why don't you just go play a game that HAS THESE THINGS AS PART OF ITS CORE GAMEPLAY INSTEAD OF EXPECTING EVERY OTHER GAME THAT POTENTIALLY MIGHT BE AIMING AT A DIFFERENT GROUP OF GAMERS TO DRASTICALLY CHANGE THEMSELVES TO FIT YOUR REQUIREMENTS?!
Originally posted by Kzak Sadly with normalization, that's the way it is starting to look.
Why are you talking about 'normalization' in the GW2 forums. That specifically applies to rift, and rift alone.
GW2 has progression, but if you think progression only means 'gear grind', then pick any number of MMOs that have been out already. One of the reasons GW2 is so popular is because it doesn't have a gear grind. Not inspite of that.
unforuntunately for the great unwashed there is no hiding behind gear grinding here. you have to turn up and compete on an even footing.
If you want progression, Tournaments, ranks and cosmetics are available in structured and PVP specific gear as well as Server rankings are available in WvW.
My job and career is where I progress.
Video games is where I go to chill out and have fun with friends.
Not everyone is sold on cosmetics. This diesn't mean GW2 is a bad game, but for those who do not view cosmetics as a form of progression, there're questions about will GW2 be able to keep their attention.
Well thank Kormir!
I hope they don't even bother to buy the game just to whine on how there is no gear grind to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power .... etc.
Gear grind is bad. Most of the people have real life to attends they don't really need a second online job. And if i hop in after a few months i don't like to be left out because i don't have the gear to do the same instance as my friends.
I don't want to grind just to be able to have fun with my friends.
Yeah not everyone is sold on cosmetics. And finally GW2 is breaking away from the gear grind mmorpg themepark "rule". Welcome variety!
Not having a gear grinding endgame doesn´t mean you don´t have progression in PvE or PvP....
If you believe so, you are misinformed.
You do progress in PvE while leveling getting stronger & adquiring better gear & skills.
Once at level cap you can grind all the gear you want if you want so...some very rare ones.... but they are not REQUIRED to be competitive since you will not benefit from ubber stats to crush your enemy like they were butter...
Comments
Yeah...it is going to be pretty cool.
Have to say though that from what I have seen Forge seems like it may be a really cool PvP game as well. Far as PvP goes I may eventually end up switching between the two. That game won't be dealing with tiered itemization either.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Which is why all those recent releases have done so well on retention... oh wait.
Clearly, if you're a gear treadmill raider GW2 is just not for you. I'm wondering, however, how sustainable that a la wow treadmill really is for any game that's not wow...
Re: SWTOR
"Remember, remember - Kakk says 'December.'"
OP obviously never played the game, there is a full progression in pve (gear, skills and level), there is a semi progression in World vs World pvp (gear and skill but everyone is at lv80 when entering those zones), and there is no progression at all in spvp (you get same gear, skills and lv as everyone else) but you still gain rewards though like gear skins and others stuff.
Regarding WvWvW pvp abilities:
If you add in abilities that are pvp centric that you gain as you "rank up" in pvp, you might as well add pvp gear. Asthetics, titles, anything that does not effect pvp combat, sure. I know people want some kind of progression but that (I believe) is not the way to go. You end up with people who have an advantage. That is against what the game is about: pvp decided by skill.
And those people that are obsessed with gear-stat chasing and don't care about cosmetics, thinking it's stupid: well, "this is not the game you're looking for." Those people shouldn't be in this game because they'll get to 80 really fast, bypassing most content, and complain that there's "nothing to do" and the game is "pointless". Those people are NOT the target audience and really shouldn't waste their time or bother other people who enjoy the game with their crazed rantings.
That opens up a whole debate really. For many I would argue it isn't how PvP is handled but rather the quality, quantity, and design of the PvE that has been a problem for games as of late causing retention issues.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I bought GW2 and have played in beta. In my mind, LOL is the ultimate in the gear grinding, pay-to-win game there ever was, yet it was a huge success. So I must not be alone in what I want in a game.
Please tell me there is no progressive PvE after you have collected one set from each dungeon.
If you have the skill to do that, then you have genuinely gotten better at the game; not your gear getting better, but YOU are getting better.
Skill progression > gear progression.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
You know, at this point, there should be a question about ANY game being able to keep player's attention, whether or not there is a cosmetic gear grind or a "power" gear grind. The difference being in GW2 you can progress, at your own pace, without worrying about a sub vs. current subscription games where you pay to access your toon to engage in their grind, and hope that the developers actually use that money to produce new content.
So let's not pretend that games with tiered gear progression actually hold a player base any better than the GW2 model. In tiered progression, you MUST regularly release new content in order to keep people grinding. Developers have already said they can't keep up with the "content locusts". In gear progression models, only a certain percentage of the player base actually gets to participate, and when you introduce things like LFR, there's a huge backlash from the "elite raiding community".
I would much rather be involved in a gameplay world that had fresh and revolving content that focused on exploration, discovery, and group participation with a progressively more involved, and more consequential system of dynamic events as you level, rather than a game that starts at max level when you hop on the gear treadmill and run the same content for 9 months hoping you get lucky on a loot drop.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Post count says it all IMO...Let you be the judge of that.
Bandit
Asbo
Just to be clear, all I was saying was that treadmills of any kind (pve or pvp) have perhaps run their course as they are currently implemented. I'll leave the greater debate and PVE/PVP specific angles for others
This right here. The game doesnt focus on gear, it teaches you to play the game better. I know im not the only one who detests gankers and trolls in PvP.
Those are the only people that benefit from gear progression and not skill progression. Theres a reason theres no Open world PVP or full loot. It breeds bad communities. The people who want "power gear" grinds are the ones who know they cant stand up in a fair fight. They play games like Tera, and farm people 15 levels below them. Seriously how is that fun?
Be a man, grow some balls, and learn how to play the game. Get big or get lost. An even playing field is the best you can do for PVP and i hope to god other games follow suit.
Lol is the ultimate gear grinding, are you talking about League of legend? If it is, then you probably don't give the same definition to "gear grind" as most mmorpg player give. Lol have no gear grind from an mmorpg point of view, if it does, first it is very limitated (your base character power is a lot more important than the power coming from gear, which is the oposite case in usual mmorpg) and second it last only for the duration of each game which is about 30minutes, when in mmorpg it last the whole time you play the game, so if you play Lol for a year you actually boosted your character power that whole year. That is what we call "gear grind" in mmorpgs.
you are not alone
and many other mmos offer what you like
EQ2 fan sites
man hearing this gear progression argument is a big laugh there was games before wow which obviously by the comments here that was obviously their first mmorpg. DAOC had zero gear progression in game for end game until trials of atlantis released and guess what people quit chasing that crap because it made the elite even eliter and impossible to kill. This game has just as much to do end game , if not more then any other game thats released since wow and thats on release not 1 year or six months down the road. You have two different types of pvp , one being large zerge vs zerge warfare and the other competitive pvp with ranks and gear. Then you have pve endgame zones that are similiar to raids in other games that are DE and effect the entire zone with how you progress. Its seriously hilarious that people are already crying about endgame progression here and havent even bothered to do any research on things to do. You have gear progression all the way to 80 and then you can chase all the gear you want even from day 1 with SPVP if gear is really your thing.
Seriously what the hell ever happened to players logging into games getting with their buddies and just going out and having fun like in the days back in eq and DAOC. Oh yeah i forgot that sespool wow released and made every mmorpg a solo gear grind that even the most casual player got tastes of purple super stat gear that made them feel elite on a video game.
Pvp where you progress through skill and learning tricks and hobby your technique sounds way more appealing than pvp where you become more "skilled" by spending 12 hours a day in your moms basement semi afking while watching tv.
Really good write up here, I couldn't have put it better myself.
I will add that even in PVP I dont mind a slight imbalance, I think its natural, that you gain power, specially when it comes to political meta games, I think it is fair that your guild/clan can amass more power. Even if I am on the other side side and am getting the short end of the stick, I like and respect earned power and I think it really does add a whole new layer of gameplay.
This doesnt mean you can't win anyway, I know people like to say whatever is convenient to their argument and one of the things they like to say is that WoW pvp is just about gear and that people care about gear and not skills, which is simply not true, and while gear provides a bleeding edge advantage, and we are talking really really minor advantages, ofc larger gap if you are talking entry lvl vs bleeding edge but you would never go against a bleeding edge team, the same way a farmer wouldnt go against an army with a pitch fork.
Reflexes and knowing how to press the buttons at the correct time ( same thing as GW2 ) plays a very important part and an exceptional player will beat a well geared player and has a fair chance at winning, it doesnt just come down to gear and reflexes there are tons of other variables that come into play, like how well your team plays together, what is your composition, what is your strategy.
This same thing is true for extended ownership of ingame structures, this is something that just doesnt happen anymore, mainly because there is this concept that everything needs to be equal, "if that guild/guy owns that I want to own one too", its not ok anymore to provide something that you need to fight others for and that may be exclusive, but its still there for the taking if you have the organization, no, we can't have that everything must be equal for everyone, this to me is as far from MMORPG as you can get.
As you say progression doesnt just mean more powerful gear.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/46603-faq-equipment-attributes-and-you-updated/
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Why are you talking about 'normalization' in the GW2 forums. That specifically applies to rift, and rift alone.
GW2 has progression, but if you think progression only means 'gear grind', then pick any number of MMOs that have been out already. One of the reasons GW2 is so popular is because it doesn't have a gear grind. Not inspite of that.
Well thank Kormir!
I hope they don't even bother to buy the game just to whine on how there is no gear grind to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power to do the next raid to get more power .... etc.
Gear grind is bad. Most of the people have real life to attends they don't really need a second online job. And if i hop in after a few months i don't like to be left out because i don't have the gear to do the same instance as my friends.
I don't want to grind just to be able to have fun with my friends.
Yeah not everyone is sold on cosmetics. And finally GW2 is breaking away from the gear grind mmorpg themepark "rule". Welcome variety!
To OP:
Not having a gear grinding endgame doesn´t mean you don´t have progression in PvE or PvP....
If you believe so, you are misinformed.
You do progress in PvE while leveling getting stronger & adquiring better gear & skills.
Once at level cap you can grind all the gear you want if you want so...some very rare ones.... but they are not REQUIRED to be competitive since you will not benefit from ubber stats to crush your enemy like they were butter...
But the option stills there.