May have worked out better for you Funcom if you hadn't pretended this was an MMO and just sold it as a coop RPG, as you should have.
Dishonesty sinks you again.
This. A lot of people who beta tested the game and liked it didn't feel like it was worth the monthly sub, didn't buy it, and told everyone they knew that, while TSW was a good game, it wasn't really an MMO.
If TSW and SWTOR were F2P/b2p from the start, both games would have done a lot better.
However, ANET is pushing the limits of what can even settle for a good F2P/B2P game now. GW2 is done really really well. Hopefully, in a year or two, more MMOs will be forced to release either higher quality games than GW2 to get subs from people, or release the quality of GW2 as a B2P/F2P game.
I have heard rumors that they do not feel their facebook marketing campaign was good enough on its own merits. Based on what I saw, I think the ARGS were a great idea and the CGI films were fun but not enough on their own.
The FB campaign was a turn-off for me. I don't play FB games. I don't want crap on my wall. None of my friends want that stuff. This is probably how things are for many adult gamers and yep, adult gamers are Funcom's target audience.
Originally posted by Coolit I think timing was TSW biggest problem, if it had launched in a quarter without GW2, MoP etc they would have done much better.
Actually my thought is that it had limited appeal.
Now, I like TSW and still have a sub. But not everyone is going to be interested in this type of setting, espeicaly when words like mystery solving and metagaming are being thrown around.
Yup. The setting is probably what killed it. I can only guess what could have been if it had been a mystery solving game in a ...fantasy setting
Lots of captain hindsights here. Dont you guys watch south park anymore.
Eve online and +1500 steam games in the back cataloge makes me a stressed out gamer.
I never said TSW was the best game ever, i don't think anyone was stupid enough to say that TSW would "kill WoW", although people have been stupid enough to say that about TOR and GW2, so /shrug.
Regardless of sales, TSW is still an excellent game with many aspects done as good or better than any game on the market.
After playing GW2 free on during beta, I tried it again during headstart (i have 3 free days of GW2) and i got bored of it in about 30 minutes and didn't touch it all weekend. The horrid writing and completely generic fantasy world are just a massive turn-off, same as they were with TERA and AION. TSW on the other hand continues to entertain me with brilliant writing, an immersive world and challenging PvE content two months into the game.
I fully expect to get at least another 2-3 months out of TSW. It's definitely not the best game ever or a WoW-killer, but it has already provided me with more and better entertainment than Rift, TERA and GW2 combined, so by comparison, it's pretty good.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Get a clue when peopel say a game is a WOW killer makes me laugh, WOW was made when there where NOT that many MMo's and WOW was design around all gamers to enjoy, TSW was design for a set type pf gamer( Niche) style game, and just because a game has 3 million subs does nto make it better. Gamers today make me laugh to with this attitude we need a game to kill WOW, wow will never die, unless Blizzard says so, there are way to many games that people like to beat those kinda of subs, SWTOR come close, and they still made a ton of money and i'm sure there are happy, and when it goes free it will make even more money....
People don't realize when a game goes F2P they make alot more money than when its sub based because gamers today don't have a clue and think there getting it for free when clearly they are NOT. All companys know they will prolly go F2P because of the market, I make games all the time and make them F2P and make more money than I did when I sold them because of how people think today... I perfer the sub based games for MMO's because you get eveyrthing for 15 bucks with F2P you end up paying way more for what you could of got for 15 a month.....So you gamers do this to your selfs.
I think you hit the nail on the head. The players are killing MMO's, not the suits. Business is about supply and demand. The players determine the nature of the market by our spending practices. We keep proving that we would rather pay a little bit at a time for crappy F2P games as oppossed to investing in a worth-while title for a premium subscription fee. In our ignorance we end up getting a worse value.
TSW is a niche game, but it is also a very good niche game. It is the most creative and ambitious project I have seen in the MMO industry since the launch of Ultima Online. I hope that Funcom can find a way to sustain it without compromising it.
Originally posted by Coolit I think timing was TSW biggest problem, if it had launched in a quarter without GW2, MoP etc they would have done much better.
Their poor reputation didn't help either.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Originally posted by coretex666 Wow. 200k is much worse than I expected.
Yeah, I mean, I played it for one whole day during beta before uninstalling, so I knew it wasn't for me, but after the mostly positive reviews it got from a lot of people after launch, it actually looked like Funcom had a solid, even if niche, title on their hands. But only 200k sold? Ouch.
Hey, Funcom, it looks like making a total mess of AoC and never fixing it wasn't that smart after all, was it? Seems like people refused to trust you and give you their money for the 2nd (or 3rd, if you consider Anarchy Online) time. Blizzard, you should take notice.
Originally posted by Coolit I think timing was TSW biggest problem, if it had launched in a quarter without GW2, MoP etc they would have done much better.
Actually my thought is that it had limited appeal.
Now, I like TSW and still have a sub. But not everyone is going to be interested in this type of setting, espeicaly when words like mystery solving and metagaming are being thrown around.
Sucks but true.
Thing is, they looked for niches on several fronts, rather than picking a niche and finding some more popular aspects to bring more players in.
-PvE combat is more difficult and varied than most mainstream games. It doesn't help that it's a bit clunky to boot. Either way, it's niche in the MMO world. With newer games like GW2 doing actiony combat, and Tera already out, the TSW move/shoot model seems forced.
-They appealed to Tinkerers with the skill wheel, rather than create a customizable path via classes.
-They appealed to Horror and conspiracy fans, probably the biggest niche, but still a niche.
-Finally, they appealed to the old puzzle game niche; the folks that loved games like Myst, Starship Titanic, etc.
Any one of those things would have probably brought in a profitable number of subs, but all together...
I hope the game sticks around. I hope they don't gut the team. Despite its many warts, it IS something special. But it's time to look at F2P, and it's also time to figure out how CCP found their subscribers as one of the Niche-iest games around.
Originally posted by eric_w66 Makes me sad that a mediocre game like GW2 sells so many copies whereas a game with a story and definitely new and interesting world sells only 200K. GW2 is what, learn 5 skills in a few levels, farm PQ's, rinse, repeat. How is that "fun"? I can see why they don't charge monthly fees, there's nothing there worth paying for beyond the box price (if that).
If you don't know what you are talking about don't talk.
Why are people surprised by this? TSW was never meant to be designed for masses. It is no Mc Donald of MMO genre. Moreover, FC really dropped the ball in advertising. I was at the Gamescon and there was ZERO advertising or news about this game. There were just two of us who went to their booth.
Originally posted by Coolit I think timing was TSW biggest problem, if it had launched in a quarter without GW2, MoP etc they would have done much better.
Actually my thought is that it had limited appeal.
Now, I like TSW and still have a sub. But not everyone is going to be interested in this type of setting, espeicaly when words like mystery solving and metagaming are being thrown around.
Sucks but true.
Thing is, they looked for niches on several fronts, rather than picking a niche and finding some more popular aspects to bring more players in.
-PvE combat is more difficult and varied than most mainstream games. It doesn't help that it's a bit clunky to boot. Either way, it's niche in the MMO world. With newer games like GW2 doing actiony combat, and Tera already out, the TSW move/shoot model seems forced.
-They appealed to Tinkerers with the skill wheel, rather than create a customizable path via classes.
-They appealed to Horror and conspiracy fans, probably the biggest niche, but still a niche.
-Finally, they appealed to the old puzzle game niche; the folks that loved games like Myst, Starship Titanic, etc.
Any one of those things would have probably brought in a profitable number of subs, but all together...
I hope the game sticks around. I hope they don't gut the team. Despite its many warts, it IS something special. But it's time to look at F2P, and it's also time to figure out how CCP found their subscribers as one of the Niche-iest games around.
I actually see the game as more of a variation on the theme park theme of games rather than a super-niche game. It's a themepark MMO -- go around and do quests, get progressively more powerful, and then grind gear in group instances at the end of the game through tokens. The stuff you're mentioning are all tweaks on the basic "themepark" chassis, and the theme park field is very, very crowded. So it's a tweak, or a series of tweaks, on the themepark idea, with the tweaks intended to have niche appeal. That's a questionable approach, really, I think.
EVE is different because open PvP sandbox games (its "chassis") are few and far between. It has no real AAA competition in its space. The other "main" sandbox games are either not combat oriented (ATiTD), not of very high production value (DF and similar) or out of service (old skool SWG). So EVE really *is* a niche. It's simply by far the best sandbox PvP experience you can find in terms of polish and production value, and so it has slowly accreted players over the years in its true niche. EVE has a significant moat in its area, whereas TSW doesn't -- TSW is competing in the themepark area, where there aren't really any moats (it could be argued that WOW has a moat due to the "sunk cost" and "switching cost" perception players have, but that is something unique to itself and not a feature of the themepark game market overall).
Originally posted by lotaparty that is gonna be problamtic . had they they stick with games like dreamfall they would had done good. online mmo is gonna ruin funcom .
Had they released the game without needing a subscription, I think I would have bought it. If they had released it as a co-op style game rather than an MMORPG, I would have been even more likely to buy it. Had they released the game with a personal server option, similar to Minecraft, I definitely would have bought it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
They say MANY avenues to increase players and profit,i can only think of two.Free to play [does not guarantee any profits at all] however can and likely will increase player totals.Cash shop is again no guarantee,if the game has only 2-3 weeks content,how mcuh money can your cash shop soak from players?
IMO Funcom is grossly misinformed by somebody or marketing agencies,i don't know who but they are.They talk about player feedback being great,well yes have we seen fans of any game ever portray any different?Do they expect a site the ypay advertising too,will give an honest opinion?
They claim they expect HIGHER profits in the 3Q,i see almsot no way that can happen depending where they allotted their profits and losses from previous quarter.I mean if they took losses from 1Q and maybe some from 3Q and allotted them into this 2q then it is misleading information and of course could mean better numbers.That would howver imo be illegal as it would misinform stocks holders/buyers.
IMO the player count will go down,i am 90% positive of that.They can add a free to play ,but that will only have players coming and going with no real positive on gaining profits.If they never got 1/2 what they anticipated,how do they figure they can lure in MORE profits from a f2p?Especially with most admitting there is a lack of substainable content and the current subscribers will slowly fall.
I think Funcom needs new management.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Gonna go with Kuppa on this. If yer hammering only five skills it's advisable to get through the tutorial or at least to 15, ro even 10...
As for TSW I definitely saw this coming. Thought there were functional issues with the way they did things in the game but still appreciated they were aiming for a different idea. Just didn't pan out.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I worry about the Funcom employees becuase Funcom claims they are confident they can meet their obligations and bills but with an asterisk claiming there is always risk in assuming that.
They are banking on higher numbers 3Q,so if this does not happen then what,are they still confident?They are already laying off employees,there is not mcuh left they can do,except leave such a small team there would be nothing positive moving forward.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
TSW failed in delivering fun. People played the beta, found out that funcom forgot to include a game with their software and here we are.
Everyone who talks about how great it is must be from another planet. It's not a good game, it didn't try to be different, it just wasn't fun. Proof is in the numbers. Even 1-2 weeks after launch you had people who were previously fanboys that were already bored with it.
No fun, no subs. Big surprise.
High retention and low sales can tell that the game was good but not hyped. in other words, you are wrong.
Funcom has released its Q2 2012 investors' presentation. The document indicates that The Secret World has sold only 200k units at the time of writing and that the company is reducing costs through layoffs and other money-saving measures. The report also looks to the future with a new focus on "system-focused games with a high degree of community and player interaction".
Hey look, it almost sounds like a virtual world!
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
200k sales? wow.... that's terrible, even Tera sold more.
The game must have around 50-100k subs... just wait a couple of months.... 30k subs?
It's a complete disaster, i wouldn't be surprised if Funcom goes bankrupt.
"Dogs are the leaders of the planet. If you see two life forms, one of them's making a poop, the other one's carrying it for him, who would you assume is in charge."
"The idea behind the tuxedo is the woman's point of view that men are all the same; so we might as well dress them that way. That's why a wedding is like the joining together of a beautiful, glowing bride and some guy" -Seinfeld
Comments
I would love a new AO. But FC isn't the company to do it.
They would need to sell the title for that to happen.
Honestly,
I thought it was far superior to TOR in nearly every way. That being said I dont play it anymore, but certainly dont regret the purchase.
This. A lot of people who beta tested the game and liked it didn't feel like it was worth the monthly sub, didn't buy it, and told everyone they knew that, while TSW was a good game, it wasn't really an MMO.
If TSW and SWTOR were F2P/b2p from the start, both games would have done a lot better.
However, ANET is pushing the limits of what can even settle for a good F2P/B2P game now. GW2 is done really really well. Hopefully, in a year or two, more MMOs will be forced to release either higher quality games than GW2 to get subs from people, or release the quality of GW2 as a B2P/F2P game.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Please make this free to play, i think it would be a shot in the arm as more people would try it out and see there is some great content in the game.
Please don't shut down.
The FB campaign was a turn-off for me. I don't play FB games. I don't want crap on my wall. None of my friends want that stuff. This is probably how things are for many adult gamers and yep, adult gamers are Funcom's target audience.
Yup. The setting is probably what killed it. I can only guess what could have been if it had been a mystery solving game in a ...fantasy setting
Lots of captain hindsights here. Dont you guys watch south park anymore.
I never said TSW was the best game ever, i don't think anyone was stupid enough to say that TSW would "kill WoW", although people have been stupid enough to say that about TOR and GW2, so /shrug.
Regardless of sales, TSW is still an excellent game with many aspects done as good or better than any game on the market.
After playing GW2 free on during beta, I tried it again during headstart (i have 3 free days of GW2) and i got bored of it in about 30 minutes and didn't touch it all weekend. The horrid writing and completely generic fantasy world are just a massive turn-off, same as they were with TERA and AION. TSW on the other hand continues to entertain me with brilliant writing, an immersive world and challenging PvE content two months into the game.
I fully expect to get at least another 2-3 months out of TSW. It's definitely not the best game ever or a WoW-killer, but it has already provided me with more and better entertainment than Rift, TERA and GW2 combined, so by comparison, it's pretty good.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
I think you hit the nail on the head. The players are killing MMO's, not the suits. Business is about supply and demand. The players determine the nature of the market by our spending practices. We keep proving that we would rather pay a little bit at a time for crappy F2P games as oppossed to investing in a worth-while title for a premium subscription fee. In our ignorance we end up getting a worse value.
TSW is a niche game, but it is also a very good niche game. It is the most creative and ambitious project I have seen in the MMO industry since the launch of Ultima Online. I hope that Funcom can find a way to sustain it without compromising it.
Their poor reputation didn't help either.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Yeah, I mean, I played it for one whole day during beta before uninstalling, so I knew it wasn't for me, but after the mostly positive reviews it got from a lot of people after launch, it actually looked like Funcom had a solid, even if niche, title on their hands. But only 200k sold? Ouch.
Sucks but true.
Thing is, they looked for niches on several fronts, rather than picking a niche and finding some more popular aspects to bring more players in.
-PvE combat is more difficult and varied than most mainstream games. It doesn't help that it's a bit clunky to boot. Either way, it's niche in the MMO world. With newer games like GW2 doing actiony combat, and Tera already out, the TSW move/shoot model seems forced.
-They appealed to Tinkerers with the skill wheel, rather than create a customizable path via classes.
-They appealed to Horror and conspiracy fans, probably the biggest niche, but still a niche.
-Finally, they appealed to the old puzzle game niche; the folks that loved games like Myst, Starship Titanic, etc.
Any one of those things would have probably brought in a profitable number of subs, but all together...
I hope the game sticks around. I hope they don't gut the team. Despite its many warts, it IS something special. But it's time to look at F2P, and it's also time to figure out how CCP found their subscribers as one of the Niche-iest games around.
I only play both. Do you?
Bite Me
I actually see the game as more of a variation on the theme park theme of games rather than a super-niche game. It's a themepark MMO -- go around and do quests, get progressively more powerful, and then grind gear in group instances at the end of the game through tokens. The stuff you're mentioning are all tweaks on the basic "themepark" chassis, and the theme park field is very, very crowded. So it's a tweak, or a series of tweaks, on the themepark idea, with the tweaks intended to have niche appeal. That's a questionable approach, really, I think.
EVE is different because open PvP sandbox games (its "chassis") are few and far between. It has no real AAA competition in its space. The other "main" sandbox games are either not combat oriented (ATiTD), not of very high production value (DF and similar) or out of service (old skool SWG). So EVE really *is* a niche. It's simply by far the best sandbox PvP experience you can find in terms of polish and production value, and so it has slowly accreted players over the years in its true niche. EVE has a significant moat in its area, whereas TSW doesn't -- TSW is competing in the themepark area, where there aren't really any moats (it could be argued that WOW has a moat due to the "sunk cost" and "switching cost" perception players have, but that is something unique to itself and not a feature of the themepark game market overall).
Had they released the game without needing a subscription, I think I would have bought it. If they had released it as a co-op style game rather than an MMORPG, I would have been even more likely to buy it. Had they released the game with a personal server option, similar to Minecraft, I definitely would have bought it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
They say MANY avenues to increase players and profit,i can only think of two.Free to play [does not guarantee any profits at all] however can and likely will increase player totals.Cash shop is again no guarantee,if the game has only 2-3 weeks content,how mcuh money can your cash shop soak from players?
IMO Funcom is grossly misinformed by somebody or marketing agencies,i don't know who but they are.They talk about player feedback being great,well yes have we seen fans of any game ever portray any different?Do they expect a site the ypay advertising too,will give an honest opinion?
They claim they expect HIGHER profits in the 3Q,i see almsot no way that can happen depending where they allotted their profits and losses from previous quarter.I mean if they took losses from 1Q and maybe some from 3Q and allotted them into this 2q then it is misleading information and of course could mean better numbers.That would howver imo be illegal as it would misinform stocks holders/buyers.
IMO the player count will go down,i am 90% positive of that.They can add a free to play ,but that will only have players coming and going with no real positive on gaining profits.If they never got 1/2 what they anticipated,how do they figure they can lure in MORE profits from a f2p?Especially with most admitting there is a lack of substainable content and the current subscribers will slowly fall.
I think Funcom needs new management.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Gonna go with Kuppa on this. If yer hammering only five skills it's advisable to get through the tutorial or at least to 15, ro even 10...
As for TSW I definitely saw this coming. Thought there were functional issues with the way they did things in the game but still appreciated they were aiming for a different idea. Just didn't pan out.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I worry about the Funcom employees becuase Funcom claims they are confident they can meet their obligations and bills but with an asterisk claiming there is always risk in assuming that.
They are banking on higher numbers 3Q,so if this does not happen then what,are they still confident?They are already laying off employees,there is not mcuh left they can do,except leave such a small team there would be nothing positive moving forward.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
High retention and low sales can tell that the game was good but not hyped. in other words, you are wrong.
Hey look, it almost sounds like a virtual world!
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
200k sales? wow.... that's terrible, even Tera sold more.
The game must have around 50-100k subs... just wait a couple of months.... 30k subs?
It's a complete disaster, i wouldn't be surprised if Funcom goes bankrupt.
"Dogs are the leaders of the planet. If you see two life forms, one of them's making a poop, the other one's carrying it for him, who would you assume is in charge."
"The idea behind the tuxedo is the woman's point of view that men are all the same; so we might as well dress them that way. That's why a wedding is like the joining together of a beautiful, glowing bride and some guy"
-Seinfeld