But it is certainly an interesting class. Hmm, didn't think the Mesmer had a much going regarding condition removal or healing though, but I haven't played it extensively.
Not only does it have a great healing build (which was covered in a Thread that I can't find due to MMORPG's Search... not searching) but one of the core strengths of the Profession is swapping Boons and Conditions (stealing enemy Boons and transferring ally Conditions to enemies).
It definitely has a "random" element to it but I've found it plays pretty "smart" and fun - for example the Signet of Inspiration often gives you a speed boost out of combat making me think the randomness is weighted.
Swapping Boons and Conditions is a great way to remove conditions. And I don't mean to imply the level of randomness is bad, not fun, or in any way results in a subpar character.
I guess I'm just trying to say that, based on what I know about the game, the D/CR/CA/BA/BR/H/DA/DR is something no one can do all the components of in every situation. For instance, turning Conditions into Boons can be good at providing Boons, as like as the conditions are there. Of course, it might not provide the Boons you really need.
I did leave out issues regarding Combos as well, which adds depth to the matter on a lot of levels -- I think it will be a month or two before I get fluent with how all the Combos work.
Let's see. I think my initial characterization was not the best.
Let's specify a bit more:
(note: things that stack in intensity can have up to 25 stacks at once, but each element of that stack uses its own duration for determining when it goes away)
Damage (D)
Everyone Does it to Varying Degrees
Some Skill Combos Apply here
Retaliation (Boon, stacks in duration)
When struck foe takes damage
Many Conditions
Burning (DOT, Stacks in duration)
Applies most damage with just one application
Bleeding (DOT, stacks in intensity)
Can do more than burning with many applications
Poison (DOT, stacks in duration)
Also reduces outgoing heals
Least damage (About 2 stacks of Bleeding)
Confusion (stacks in intensity)
Inflicts damage when enemy uses a skill
Damage Amplification (DAm)
Not everyone does this, and some just provide it to themselves
Two Boons
Might (Stacks in Intensity, so the more you can get faster the better)
Increases Power and Condition Damage
Fury (Stacks in Duration)
+20% Crit Chance
Some Conditions
Crippled (stacks in duration)
Reduces movement speed by 50%. Only if enemy is moving around a lot
Immobilized (stacks in duration)
Prevents enemy dodging and they can't move.
Vulnerability (stacks in intensity)
Each Stack increaes damage taken by 1%
Weakness (stacks in duration)
Half of non-crits are glancing blows (not applicable here)
Reduces Endurance Regeneration by 50%, lessens dodging
Damage Avoidance (DAv) (e.g. not using on-hit resources and not being hit)
Dodging
Some Abilities like the Elementalist Swirling Winds (destroys all Projectiles in a wide area)
Two Boons
Swiftness (stacks in duration)
+33% movement
Vigor (stacks in duration)
+100% Endurance Regen for more dodging
Some Conditions
Chilled (stacks in duration)
Movement Speed and Skill Recharge Rate Reduced by 66%
Crippled (stacks in duration)
Reduces movement speed by 50%. When Kiting.
Fear (Not Stacking)
Target Runs Direction Away from Caster
Damage Reduction (DR)
Some Boons
Aegis (Not Stacking)
Blocks Next Attack
Protection (Stacks in Duration)
Incoming Damage reduced by 33%
Some Conditions
Blindness (no stacking)
Next attack misses
Weakness (stacks in duration)
Half of non-crits are glancing blows
Reduces Endurance Regeneration by 50%
Healing (H)
Personal Healing (everyone has this)
Direct Heals (some can have this)
Abilities that heal others, duh.
Regeneration (Boon, stacks in duration)
Heal over Time
Enemy Boon Removal (ABR)
Remove Boons
Primarily Necromancer and the Mesmer
Guardian has a traits that allow them to do this
Turn Boons to Conditions
Necromancer only, really
Steal Boons
Mesmer with a utility
Thief with a trait
Ally Condition Removal (ACF)
Remove Conditions
Every class can POTENTIALLY get an ability that does this for themselves
Elementalist and Guardian have a lot for this
Turn Conditions into Boons
Primarily the Necromancer for affecting others
Move Conditions from Allies to Enemies
Mostly Necromancer stuff
Of course, even D/DAm/DAv/DR/H/EBR/ACF perspective has a lot of a complexities. How much and what kind of each will depend on the group, dungeon, etc. But I think the fundamental point is that I don't see how any ONE class and build could provide everything that is needed here. Mesmers can cover a fair bit in various ways and be very useful, but they can't bring everything. That's what I meant to get at.
This is especially true when one considers the duration of a lot of boons and how often some conditions can be applied by enemies.
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Drachasor
At random. Really, really at random.
But it is certainly an interesting class. Hmm, didn't think the Mesmer had a much going regarding condition removal or healing though, but I haven't played it extensively.
Not completely at random, but some things to add random elements. For condition removal I keep Null Field as a utility. It removes all conditions on allies and all boons on enemies in its area of effect. Having phantasms traited to provide regeneration on allies near them gives bonus healing, and the beauty of that is that you don't even have to change how you were playing... add the trait and you have added healing. (Caveat, I always have at least one phantasm up, usually more when I'm scepter/pistol.)
Cripples on the enemies can easily be planned (greatsword skill 4) or quasi-random (traited clones to cripple on shatter) plus clones can be traited to remove a boon from the enemy on shatter as well.
Other utilities I'm using and enjoying atm are the reflective bubble (cast around foe, reflects all projectiles back to the foe: Mitigation + damage) and... crap, hang on let me think... ah yes, right now the utility that produces two clones for more added shatter benefits at will. Nothing like a Mind Wrack, hit "8" (where I have it at) then an interrupt, or even distortion at need.
I probably overemphasized the randomness a tad. My mistake. The Mesmer definitely seems like a very interesting class to play and I look forward to playing mind. A lot of classes have some pretty potent combinations.
An Elementalist at 80, for instance, can be made to constantly keep Fury (+20% crit) and Swiftness up on a group -- as well as frequently given allies Fire Shield (or potentially other auras). The same build can also heal, put regen, and cure a condition on all nearby allies when attuning to water (as well as might went attuning to fire and protection when attuning to earth). That's not really even touching on what weapon they'd use and they'd have a fair degree of freedom with skills (they'd just need a couple signets).
So I think everyone has some very potent builds. But you still can't do all of the support yourself. I think one person might be able to handle all or most of the healing, depending on how good the group is at avoiding/reducing damage (which can also be increased).
I can deal some burst damage in lighting & fire. Apply conditions in earth. Remove conditions whenever I switch to Water. Apply boons whenever I swtich to any attunement. Provide some fairly strong group heals every couple seconds. Avoid damage with my blinds and mitigate it with Weakness. So I certainly don't fall into any category of the trinity, yet my spec has proven to be incredibly effective in dungeons.
Sure it seems like I'm trying to be the jack of all trades and the master of none, which is generally a big "no no" in MMORPGs. However there's really a good synergy with the choices I've made with my build and it shows that you don't have to truly focus on 1 thing (e.g. dealing tons of damage) to be effective.
Right, I've modified it a bit. But my main point is that no one can do it all sufficiently by themselves. And I agree everyone needs to be a hybrid of some sort.
Well, I guess I have a few main points.
I don't think you can specialize to handle all of any job by yourself. Heck, you can't even really specialize in just one thing, even damage. You'll always have other abilities which will have their uses.
Trying to specify a "Trinity" in GW2, even with Control, Support, Damage is not a helpful way to look at the game and group dynamics. It seems clear to me that different sorts of groups will emerge that lean on some boons/conditions/etc more than others and find some boons and conditions of minimum help/harm. In other words, getting a group to work will be more about finding synergy in abilities and strategy and adapting your build to the group. Some of this will be in making sure enough "support" and "control" are brought, but what precisely that means depends on the group to an extent. Some of it will also be in ensuring the group can handle conditions and enemies with boons.
In a game like WoW, you can clearly say it has a Trinity. Healing classes ALL bring certain elements to the table. Certain buffs can easily be found from multiple sources. All Tanks have the same set of abilities as well. The combat, class system, etc are all designed so you have little more to do then get sufficient tanks, sufficient healers, and the rest DPS. At most you might need to ensure one of many options to get an assumed buff, but this almost always takes care of itself. That sort of thing is now what is going on in GW2 as I see it. Group builds and group dynamics are more complex as are their interactions. There's a great deal of depth here due to the design.
And I just realized in my above long thing I left out combos again. But Setups and Finishers are a somewhat complicated subject, I believe.
I don't think that's the intent. The idea is that you don't have players who are dedicated to roles in a way that mandates specific compositions of groups and specific specializations of each class. In other words, a "healing class" would be considered worthless if they wanted to spec for damage in the old model using a trinity. This game precludes this by saying there is no damage/healing dynamic. It's reworked to by focused on ideas of damage, control and support which are executed by all players in varying capacities. It's not that they've removed the need for healing and damage mitigation, but they've redefined and redistributed these responsibilities amongst the entire group and instituting a more democratic approach to group play. You can't just worry about topping off health bars or holding aggro or maintaing your dps rotation. You have to pay attention to you, your allies, your enemies, what's happening, what's about to happen, etc. It feels much more engaged. It reminds me a lot of playing Halo with friends online.
I don't think this is an innovation that should be widely adopted by every game going forward. However, I'm very pleased with the step in a distinctly new direction with respect to class roles. I am interested to see how dungeons feel to me. Some people love it and others hate it. I'm inclined to think I'll prefer it simply because I'm so exhausted with the tank and spank approach to PvE. I think the old paradigm of MMOs will be around for a long, long time, but I'm hopeful that we'll see more companies trying to do things differently. It's how games have progressed since the beginning of games. How could Pong turn into Resident Evil if developers never challenge conventions and imagine bold, new things?
I have nothing against creating something else to replace the trinity system but however you cut it, you still need to either prevent or heal damage done and I cant see either of these roles being properly done by any class in this game. I mean which class can continously CC mobs to prevent damage? Or have bubbles which are up constantly?
There is a sprinkle of these skills all over the place but not enough for properly managing the damage the party is being dealt and I am not sure how that is an improvment, it just makes you die more often because there is no consistent way of preventing or healing damage.
Did you ever play city of heroes? You could run instances without tanks and healers.
I played CoH extensively and the reason you could survive without a healer, on tougher instances, was if you had a really good CC. On easier instances it was possible because mobs are so weak that you can spread the damage.
However, for the record, CoH had dedicated healer and tanks and they were quite effective.
Sorry to say but that one is false i have seen my friend do the hardest instance in Coh with only blasters ei glass canons
One of GW 2 "features" is that it does not have any trinity system of tanks, healers etc but the problem, from what I have experienced so far, is that it has replaced it with tank, damage, CC but just removed the healer and allowing everyone to have self heals, with long cool down and some classes to have some limited healing.
Not sure I see the improvment here. I heard that this is supposedly be replaced by classes which can prevent damage but which class is so good at preventing damage so to not need healing?
Some of the key elements people need to learn are:
Knowing complimentary builds/skills based on the other professions with you.
Knowing your own profession, its limitations and strengths.
Knowing when to dodge (absolutely paramount).
Knowing when to attack and retreat.
Knowing when to revive a fallen party member.
Knowing when to use your heal and not waste it.
Guild Wars 2 differs in that a group’s success or failure can no longer be attributed to the individual (tank or healer) and instead is a collective effort by all. Accepting responsibility for your own healing, your own avoidance of damage through dodging and your own reactions to revive downed party members quickly is what Guild Wars 2’s dungeons are all about. Failing to do just one of the six above will, like other factors mentioned, see you fail repeatedly. I think that to many players can be hard to stomach, especially when the blame might lye at your own feet rather than at someone else’s.
More and more I see people (like, one player) effectively tanking champion mobs. And it seems to be working. A lot of dodges, a lot of support thrown their way, heals / turrets / elixirs... I have no idea how this is happening, but it seems to be working.
I thought there was no way you could hold aggro and thus tank a mob in GW2. Are my eyes deceiving me?
What your are likely seeing is Over-leveled people downscaled to the area. On my Warrior lvl 40 Warrior I can handle lvl 15-25 Champions pretty easily with Dodging and Cooldowns without much(if any) support.
This does NOT work in the Dungeons though.
Yeah, that's probably it. I'll admit I didn't check their levels.
Though I know there's this part of me that'll be glad to learn *any* sort of applicable tanking mechanics exist in this game. I guess I just like concept.
Eventually when people figure out what is best, there won't be SO many builds. If people want to achieve something that is. If you want to play just for the funs there are a lot of builds for you. But then again, you have countless of shitty builds in every games. Difference is, you have to make each and every build equally valeuble, which is not something we will see in any MMO. It would require enormous amount of balancing.
Originally posted by Yamota You mean in the sense that they cant hold aggro? In that sense yes but you have far more tougher classes like the Guardian and Warrior than say an Elementalist.
Elementalists can play the tank role easily.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I've tanked in tons of games, EQ2 (Shadowknight), WoW (Warrior), RIFT (Paladin), TOR (Vanguard), ... You can't tank like in those games here.
A tank who can't hold aggro solidly isn't a tank, the defining aspect of a tank is not that he can mitigate or avoid damage (that comes later), it is making sure the mob is hitting you and not anyone else first and foremost.
No matter what you say, I've seen bosses in explorable modes turn around and head off for a far away group-member randomly. The aggro list resets or updates in a different way in this game, which has good and bad aspects.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I've tanked in tons of games, EQ2 (Shadowknight), WoW (Warrior), RIFT (Paladin), TOR (Vanguard), ... You can't tank like in those games here.
A tank who can't hold aggro solidly isn't a tank, the defining aspect of a tank is not that he can mitigate or avoid damage (that comes later), it is making sure the mob is hitting you and not anyone else first and foremost.
No matter what you say, I've seen bosses in explorable modes turn around and head off for a far away group-member randomly. The aggro list resets or updates in a different way in this game, which has good and bad aspects.
Most traditional trinity tanks are useless in holding aggro against a skilled DD (not holding back much, otherwise even a bad tank is "good" since the DD don't get aggro) so they're not actually tanks then?
I agree about trinity games having aggro tools to make it work a lot easier but just thought it was a bit funny as a traditional trinity DD player.
One of GW 2 "features" is that it does not have any trinity system of tanks, healers etc but the problem, from what I have experienced so far, is that it has replaced it with tank, damage, CC but just removed the healer and allowing everyone to have self heals, with long cool down and some classes to have some limited healing.
Not sure I see the improvment here. I heard that this is supposedly be replaced by classes which can prevent damage but which class is so good at preventing damage so to not need healing?
There is no tanking, just kiteing.
And my thief doesnt need much healing, but that is because I rarely gets hit. Somne classes do prevent some damage but they all need to self heal anyways unless they stand in a well or something.
One of GW 2 "features" is that it does not have any trinity system of tanks, healers etc but the problem, from what I have experienced so far, is that it has replaced it with tank, damage, CC but just removed the healer and allowing everyone to have self heals, with long cool down and some classes to have some limited healing.
Not sure I see the improvment here. I heard that this is supposedly be replaced by classes which can prevent damage but which class is so good at preventing damage so to not need healing?
There is no tanking, just kiteing.
And my thief doesnt need much healing, but that is because I rarely gets hit. Somne classes do prevent some damage but they all need to self heal anyways unless they stand in a well or something.
Not just kiting... there's also enemy movement restrictions that keep them getting to you as opposed to moving to keep away from them. Cripples, walls, knockbacks and knockdowns, things of this nature. That's one thing I'm working on mesmering (one of many, I might add)... keeping cripples up for a significant period of time so myself and allies have more control over positioning during a fight.
This doesn't invalidate the value of kiting in the least. But it sure makes it easier and even unnecessary for periods of time.
But it is certainly an interesting class. Hmm, didn't think the Mesmer had a much going regarding condition removal or healing though, but I haven't played it extensively.
Not only does it have a great healing build (which was covered in a Thread that I can't find due to MMORPG's Search... not searching) but one of the core strengths of the Profession is swapping Boons and Conditions (stealing enemy Boons and transferring ally Conditions to enemies).
It definitely has a "random" element to it but I've found it plays pretty "smart" and fun - for example the Signet of Inspiration often gives you a speed boost out of combat making me think the randomness is weighted.
Swapping Boons and Conditions is a great way to remove conditions. And I don't mean to imply the level of randomness is bad, not fun, or in any way results in a subpar character.
I guess I'm just trying to say that, based on what I know about the game, the D/CR/CA/BA/BR/H/DA/DR is something no one can do all the components of in every situation. For instance, turning Conditions into Boons can be good at providing Boons, as like as the conditions are there. Of course, it might not provide the Boons you really need...
I probably overemphasized the randomness a tad. My mistake. The Mesmer definitely seems like a very interesting class to play and I look forward to playing mind. A lot of classes have some pretty potent combinations...
So I think everyone has some very potent builds. But you still can't do all of the support yourself. I think one person might be able to handle all or most of the healing, depending on how good the group is at avoiding/reducing damage (which can also be increased)...
Right, I've modified it a bit. But my main point is that no one can do it all sufficiently by themselves. And I agree everyone needs to be a hybrid of some sort...
I don't think you can specialize to handle all of any job by yourself. Heck, you can't even really specialize in just one thing, even damage. You'll always have other abilities which will have their uses.
Trying to specify a "Trinity" in GW2, even with Control, Support, Damage is not a helpful way to look at the game and group dynamics. It seems clear to me that different sorts of groups will emerge that lean on some boons/conditions/etc more than others and find some boons and conditions of minimum help/harm. In other words, getting a group to work will be more about finding synergy in abilities and strategy and adapting your build to the group. Some of this will be in making sure enough "support" and "control" are brought, but what precisely that means depends on the group to an extent. Some of it will also be in ensuring the group can handle conditions and enemies with boons.
In a game like WoW, you can clearly say it has a Trinity. Healing classes ALL bring certain elements to the table. Certain buffs can easily be found from multiple sources. All Tanks have the same set of abilities as well. The combat, class system, etc are all designed so you have little more to do then get sufficient tanks, sufficient healers, and the rest DPS. At most you might need to ensure one of many options to get an assumed buff, but this almost always takes care of itself. That sort of thing is now what is going on in GW2 as I see it. Group builds and group dynamics are more complex as are their interactions. There's a great deal of depth here due to the design.
And I just realized in my above long thing I left out combos again. But Setups and Finishers are a somewhat complicated subject, I believe.
Somehow I don't think that acronym is going to catch on... but to your other point I don't think any of us were saying we could "heal" the group by ourselves, simply that Mesmer can be specced to provide solid Support and Healing, just as an Elementalist can be specced for Survivability.
I've made a post (somewhere... here? the "dungeons are useless" thread?) where I stated the essence of what you wrote up (great detailed analysis btw for those who read it) in 3 words... GW2 Requires Teamwork
They can include more random encounter mechanics because more people in a group can fill multiple roles in multiple ways at multiple times, though no one is ever really completely "locked in" to a single role (just the way Weapon Skills are designed makes it hard to be doing only damage when using them).
There really is a lot of depth to the underlying system. You haven't even touched on creative uses of Boons and Conditions yet - for instance one of the Devs in an interview talked about a Swiftness-Based Support Thief because Swiftness also boosts Channeling speed that Thief could Revive people faster than anyone while using Stealth and Shadow Step for Battlefield Mobility.
Crowd Control (CC): Those who work ot disable or limit an enemy. This is where guardians/warriors might come in who are tanky, able to provide ways to hold the mobs away or initiate, using their 'bodies' as a form of CC along with their abilities.
Support: Basically classes that buff and provide heals. A lot of classes have this option though Engineer , Guardian, and Mesmer do an excelent job in this area.
The trinity is not dead, its shifted. You can have more flexability yes, but if you do not have these 3 components (particularly a support and CC) the difficulty with be vastly harder.
Swapping Boons and Conditions is a great way to remove conditions. And I don't mean to imply the level of randomness is bad, not fun, or in any way results in a subpar character.
I guess I'm just trying to say that, based on what I know about the game, the D/CR/CA/BA/BR/H/DA/DR is something no one can do all the components of in every situation. For instance, turning Conditions into Boons can be good at providing Boons, as like as the conditions are there. Of course, it might not provide the Boons you really need...
I probably overemphasized the randomness a tad. My mistake. The Mesmer definitely seems like a very interesting class to play and I look forward to playing mind. A lot of classes have some pretty potent combinations...
So I think everyone has some very potent builds. But you still can't do all of the support yourself. I think one person might be able to handle all or most of the healing, depending on how good the group is at avoiding/reducing damage (which can also be increased)...
<snipping the rest of my post>
Somehow I don't think that acronym is going to catch on... but to your other point I don't think any of us were saying we could "heal" the group by ourselves, simply that Mesmer can be specced to provide solid Support and Healing, just as an Elementalist can be specced for Survivability.
I've made a post (somewhere... here? the "dungeons are useless" thread?) where I stated the essence of what you wrote up (great detailed analysis btw for those who read it) in 3 words... GW2 Requires Teamwork
They can include more random encounter mechanics because more people in a group can fill multiple roles in multiple ways at multiple times, though no one is ever really completely "locked in" to a single role (just the way Weapon Skills are designed makes it hard to be doing only damage when using them).
There really is a lot of depth to the underlying system. You haven't even touched on creative uses of Boons and Conditions yet - for instance one of the Devs in an interview talked about a Swiftness-Based Support Thief because Swiftness also boosts Channeling speed that Thief could Revive people faster than anyone while using Stealth and Shadow Step for Battlefield Mobility.
Yes, it is quite complicated, and I was well aware I left a number of details out -- but I didn't want to spend another couple hours on it. And no, I don't expect my acronym to catch on at all. But that's more or less one of my big points. Breaking it down into any sort of "trinity" just doesn't work very well for explaining the combat system. "Support" can mean lots of things and one support character can easily be bringing completely differen things to the table compared to another. I think going with "trinity" talk also tends to make people think in terms of the ridiculous overspecialization we are familiar with in Holy Trinity games. In the same way "Control" can also come in radically different flavors that do different things. In a number of ways there's even over lap in function between how one would interpret "Control" and "Support" (e.g. Aegis and Blindness are very similar in effect, yet one would traditionally be labeled as a support ability and the other as a control ability).
Again, the whole any sort of trinity description just falls far short of explaining things and I think can be detrimental towards understanding important parts of how the combat system works.
Crowd Control (CC): Those who work ot disable or limit an enemy. This is where guardians/warriors might come in who are tanky, able to provide ways to hold the mobs away or initiate, using their 'bodies' as a form of CC along with their abilities.
Support: Basically classes that buff and provide heals. A lot of classes have this option though Engineer , Guardian, and Mesmer do an excelent job in this area.
The trinity is not dead, its shifted. You can have more flexability yes, but if you do not have these 3 components (particularly a support and CC) the difficulty with be vastly harder.
I just don't see how this is a helpful way to look at things.
Aegis and Blindness for instance, are essentially two ways of doing the same thing -- the next otherwise successful enemy attack fails. Yet Aegis is a boon and hence "support" and blindness is condition and hence "control." Looking at them from the support/control perspective is not helpful.
Further, looking at builds from a support/control perspective is quite misleading. There are lots of different sorts of support and control. There's overlap in functionality between the two. Most classes can only provide a subset of support and/or control options. A Warrior doing support is very different from a Guardian or Mesmer doing support. Same with them doing control. And again, the distinction between Support and Control in some cases does not matter because the end result is the same.
And of course, what kinds of abilities a group or individual will best utilize can vary a great deal. So it is quite possible that one "support" build won't be all that supportive to a particular group whereas another would. So how is thinking of things in terms of "support" and "control" all that useful? I'm not seeing it.
Yes, it is quite complicated, and I was well aware I left a number of details out -- but I didn't want to spend another couple hours on it. And no, I don't expect my acronym to catch on at all. But that's more or less one of my big points. Breaking it down into any sort of "trinity" just doesn't work very well for explaining the combat system. "Support" can mean lots of things and one support character can easily be bringing completely differen things to the table compared to another. I think going with "trinity" talk also tends to make people think in terms of the ridiculous overspecialization we are familiar with in Holy Trinity games. In the same way "Control" can also come in radically different flavors that do different things. In a number of ways there's even over lap in function between how one would interpret "Control" and "Support" (e.g. Aegis and Blindness are very similar in effect, yet one would traditionally be labeled as a support ability and the other as a control ability).
Again, the whole any sort of trinity description just falls far short of explaining things and I think can be detrimental towards understanding important parts of how the combat system works.
Please note I'm not arguing with you I'm agreeing with you /wink
The main reason you are hearing people refer to "the GW2 Trinity" as Damage/Support/Control is that is what the Devs themselves said.
I agree with you that it is an over-simplification, but the fact is we need some terms to "help translate GW2-think" into something a "Holy Trinity" speaker can understand. It is still a huge over-simplification but we need to start somewhere.
You, and I, and a few other people have started thinking about how GW2 works and analysing it way too much. Most people haven't. It doesn't help to go up to somebody just learning Classical Mechanics and say "no no no... this is how it really works with Special Relativity" - build the ideas and concepts slowly and then expand people's foundations.
Perhaps a better way to start is to say that all Abilities have some aspect of Damage, Control, or Support but no Profession will ever be locked into or especially effective if they only focus on one.
I don't think that's the intent. The idea is that you don't have players who are dedicated to roles in a way that mandates specific compositions of groups and specific specializations of each class. In other words, a "healing class" would be considered worthless if they wanted to spec for damage in the old model using a trinity. This game precludes this by saying there is no damage/healing dynamic. It's reworked to by focused on ideas of damage, control and support which are executed by all players in varying capacities. It's not that they've removed the need for healing and damage mitigation, but they've redefined and redistributed these responsibilities amongst the entire group and instituting a more democratic approach to group play. You can't just worry about topping off health bars or holding aggro or maintaing your dps rotation. You have to pay attention to you, your allies, your enemies, what's happening, what's about to happen, etc. It feels much more engaged. It reminds me a lot of playing Halo with friends online.
I don't think this is an innovation that should be widely adopted by every game going forward. However, I'm very pleased with the step in a distinctly new direction with respect to class roles. I am interested to see how dungeons feel to me. Some people love it and others hate it. I'm inclined to think I'll prefer it simply because I'm so exhausted with the tank and spank approach to PvE. I think the old paradigm of MMOs will be around for a long, long time, but I'm hopeful that we'll see more companies trying to do things differently. It's how games have progressed since the beginning of games. How could Pong turn into Resident Evil if developers never challenge conventions and imagine bold, new things?
I have nothing against creating something else to replace the trinity system but however you cut it, you still need to either prevent or heal damage done and I cant see either of these roles being properly done by any class in this game. I mean which class can continously CC mobs to prevent damage? Or have bubbles which are up constantly?
There is a sprinkle of these skills all over the place but not enough for properly managing the damage the party is being dealt and I am not sure how that is an improvment, it just makes you die more often because there is no consistent way of preventing or healing damage.
Not so much of a replacement for trinity as another flavor of combat mechanics. Your still thinking trinity where some class needs to hold the mob. It's not just an abilty that performs cc, dodging (evade) or backing off your dps is another way of control. GW2 combat mechanic is not new it's class swapping roles in combat is quite different though, all this makes for a much more immersive combat for all players in a group.
I am still seeing alot of sword and board types just pouring on dps in tank mental mode rather then getting in there for some dps and getting out. Swapping dps and some cc throughout the entire party is pretty much the dynamic.
I normally avoid "tank" classes, but I am going vitality/toughness guardian and it is pretty much a tank Other than shouting at npcs to hold aggro, I'm pretty sure it is all there. In a group, I pull large groups of mobs, initiate the combat, take the hits (and self heals), and give some boosts to everyone (shouts). Plus being melee and up front you aggro pretty much everything.
Going healing spec, you can get some decent healing, but seem to need another healing spec character to do well - for what I have seen.
I normally avoid "tank" classes, but I am going vitality/toughness guardian and it is pretty much a tank Other than shouting at npcs to hold aggro, I'm pretty sure it is all there. In a group, I pull large groups of mobs, initiate the combat, take the hits (and self heals), and give some boosts to everyone (shouts). Plus being melee and up front you aggro pretty much everything.
Going healing spec, you can get some decent healing, but seem to need another healing spec character to do well - for what I have seen.
Have you tried that in a Dungeon yet? Just a warning it might not work so well there...
Yes, it is quite complicated, and I was well aware I left a number of details out -- but I didn't want to spend another couple hours on it. And no, I don't expect my acronym to catch on at all. But that's more or less one of my big points. Breaking it down into any sort of "trinity" just doesn't work very well for explaining the combat system. "Support" can mean lots of things and one support character can easily be bringing completely differen things to the table compared to another. I think going with "trinity" talk also tends to make people think in terms of the ridiculous overspecialization we are familiar with in Holy Trinity games. In the same way "Control" can also come in radically different flavors that do different things. In a number of ways there's even over lap in function between how one would interpret "Control" and "Support" (e.g. Aegis and Blindness are very similar in effect, yet one would traditionally be labeled as a support ability and the other as a control ability).
Again, the whole any sort of trinity description just falls far short of explaining things and I think can be detrimental towards understanding important parts of how the combat system works.
Please note I'm not arguing with you I'm agreeing with you /wink
The main reason you are hearing people refer to "the GW2 Trinity" as Damage/Support/Control is that is what the Devs themselves said.
I agree with you that it is an over-simplification, but the fact is we need some terms to "help translate GW2-think" into something a "Holy Trinity" speaker can understand. It is still a huge over-simplification but we need to start somewhere.
You, and I, and a few other people have started thinking about how GW2 works and analysing it way too much. Most people haven't. It doesn't help to go up to somebody just learning Classical Mechanics and say "no no no... this is how it really works with Special Relativity" - build the ideas and concepts slowly and then expand people's foundations.
Perhaps a better way to start is to say that all Abilities have some aspect of Damage, Control, or Support but no Profession will ever be locked into or especially effective if they only focus on one.
Sorry, I know you are agreeing with me. I'm just very pedantic at times.
And frankly, even special relativity is wrong -- it can't handle accelerations. And General Relativity breaks down in certain circumstances too. But more seriously, classical mechanics is still good to teach because almost everything in the everyday world follows those principles to a high degree (the error you get for not using a more precise theory is often too small to measure). The GPS system is perhaps the only exception to this.
However, I don't see the Support/Control/Damage trinity being the same. It is just not a very good way of looking at the game. I know part of the reason people bring it up is because of the Devs. But to be fair, the Devs apparently made the Dungeons harder than they could really manage because they know they aren't good at their game. So...make of that what you will.
I think we could possibly get a basic description down to 4 or 5 elements. Damage and Damage Amplification (e.g. Damage, I guess), Damage Mitigation (and Avoidance), Healing, Condition Removal, and Boon Removal. Ok, 5 things. Not sure if we can do better than that. I mean heck, Healing, Damage, and Damage Mitigation have their own stats, and Condition Removal and Boon Removal are independent of stats -- healing even has its own skill slot. The game just naturally seperates these things out.
The problem with "Control" is that most associate that with applying conditions/debuffing/boon removal. But like I said, in the game this has an overlap with how most define "Support" (buffing/booning/condition removal). And of course boon and condition removal are given out differently than healing and control effects -- to an extent, there are healing things that remove conditions, but again there are healing things that do damage.
There is definately an aggro system, just not one that can be used to tank effectively.
That's interesting considering we use the same tank for 90% of the dungeons runs we do. This tank manages to hold aggro on every boss with the odd exception that has different mechanics.
How exactly is this not tanking?
If your tank is holding aggro and therefore soaking all of the damage from the MOBs, then how the heck is he not dying?
totally agree with Creslin, this is pure bs your so called tank has the illusion he's tanking cause he's in there face but in reality it's not even built into the ai of the mob. Believe me dps is being shared with the group or he would drop. He specs out toughnes and vital and has defense buffs sure he can soak up damage but all the classes can do that. Man I'm sorry so trinity brainwashed. We proved that in beta when the the so called tank ran around and the mob didn't totally follow him around.
There are ways to manipulate aggro, and they're not as simple as doing the most damage. Once you figure out the aggro system, you'll find that the game is extremely easy.
As a Guardian, you're expected to have
- condition removal
- area denial
- sustain
- burst dps
- massive aoe dps Anything less than 260 range is melee as far I'm concerned.
- cc
If you're a guardian who doesn't have these, then good luck on Lupicus . If you're building around only one of these areas, then you're hardly what one would call optimal.
There are ways to manipulate aggro, and they're not as simple as doing the most damage. Once you figure out the aggro system, you'll find that the game is extremely easy.
As a Guardian, you're expected to have
- condition removal
- area denial
- sustain
- burst dps
- massive aoe dps Anything less than 260 range is melee as far I'm concerned.
- cc
If you're a guardian who doesn't have these, then good luck on Lupicus . If you're building around only one of these areas, then you're hardly what one would call optimal.
I find it a bit hilarious that less than 2 weeks into release you are declaring what a particular class MUST have for a particular fight. Because surely no other build or playstyle could work, right? And it must not matter who else is in your party either. Seems absurd to me to be certain of anything like this at this point. The meta is still in its infancy.
Sorry, I know you are agreeing with me. I'm just very pedantic at times...
However, I don't see the Support/Control/Damage trinity being the same. It is just not a very good way of looking at the game. I know part of the reason people bring it up is because of the Devs. But to be fair, the Devs apparently made the Dungeons harder than they could really manage because they know they aren't good at their game. So...make of that what you will.
I think we could possibly get a basic description down to 4 or 5 elements...
The problem with "Control" is that most associate that with applying conditions/debuffing/boon removal. But like I said, in the game this has an overlap with how most define "Support" (buffing/booning/condition removal). And of course boon and condition removal are given out differently than healing and control effects -- to an extent, there are healing things that remove conditions, but again there are healing things that do damage.
If you want a potentially better system, I like to think of it as Damage, Mitigation, and Buffing (or maybe Utility?).
Each of the 3 can be accomplished proactively or reactively depending upon the Ability and many Abilities provide more than one of the 3 and potentially both proactively and reactively at the same time.
"Control" is honestly nothing more than a proactive form of Damage Mitigation. If the mob can't hit you he can't hurt you.
Even Buffing is in some sense just proactive or passive Damage or Mitigation.
Don't lose sight of the forest for the trees though... the important thing we're trying to share with people is that ALL Professions have ways of doing these things and that while your character might be somewhat better at types of them based on Stats, choice of Weapons, Skills, and Traits quickly gives you access to all of them, and often at the same time.
There are ways to manipulate aggro, and they're not as simple as doing the most damage. Once you figure out the aggro system, you'll find that the game is extremely easy.
As a Guardian, you're expected to have
- condition removal
- area denial
- sustain
- burst dps
- massive aoe dps Anything less than 260 range is melee as far I'm concerned.
- cc
If you're a guardian who doesn't have these, then good luck on Lupicus . If you're building around only one of these areas, then you're hardly what one would call optimal.
I find it a bit hilarious that less than 2 weeks into release you are declaring what a particular class MUST have for a particular fight. Because surely no other build or playstyle could work, right? And it must not matter who else is in your party either. Seems absurd to me to be certain of anything like this at this point. The meta is still in its infancy.
I find it interesting that you think the meta is something that is still being explored.
Comments
Swapping Boons and Conditions is a great way to remove conditions. And I don't mean to imply the level of randomness is bad, not fun, or in any way results in a subpar character.
I guess I'm just trying to say that, based on what I know about the game, the D/CR/CA/BA/BR/H/DA/DR is something no one can do all the components of in every situation. For instance, turning Conditions into Boons can be good at providing Boons, as like as the conditions are there. Of course, it might not provide the Boons you really need.
I did leave out issues regarding Combos as well, which adds depth to the matter on a lot of levels -- I think it will be a month or two before I get fluent with how all the Combos work.
Let's see. I think my initial characterization was not the best.
Let's specify a bit more:
(note: things that stack in intensity can have up to 25 stacks at once, but each element of that stack uses its own duration for determining when it goes away)
Of course, even D/DAm/DAv/DR/H/EBR/ACF perspective has a lot of a complexities. How much and what kind of each will depend on the group, dungeon, etc. But I think the fundamental point is that I don't see how any ONE class and build could provide everything that is needed here. Mesmers can cover a fair bit in various ways and be very useful, but they can't bring everything. That's what I meant to get at.
This is especially true when one considers the duration of a lot of boons and how often some conditions can be applied by enemies.
I probably overemphasized the randomness a tad. My mistake. The Mesmer definitely seems like a very interesting class to play and I look forward to playing mind. A lot of classes have some pretty potent combinations.
An Elementalist at 80, for instance, can be made to constantly keep Fury (+20% crit) and Swiftness up on a group -- as well as frequently given allies Fire Shield (or potentially other auras). The same build can also heal, put regen, and cure a condition on all nearby allies when attuning to water (as well as might went attuning to fire and protection when attuning to earth). That's not really even touching on what weapon they'd use and they'd have a fair degree of freedom with skills (they'd just need a couple signets).
So I think everyone has some very potent builds. But you still can't do all of the support yourself. I think one person might be able to handle all or most of the healing, depending on how good the group is at avoiding/reducing damage (which can also be increased).
Right, I've modified it a bit. But my main point is that no one can do it all sufficiently by themselves. And I agree everyone needs to be a hybrid of some sort.
Well, I guess I have a few main points.
I don't think you can specialize to handle all of any job by yourself. Heck, you can't even really specialize in just one thing, even damage. You'll always have other abilities which will have their uses.
Trying to specify a "Trinity" in GW2, even with Control, Support, Damage is not a helpful way to look at the game and group dynamics. It seems clear to me that different sorts of groups will emerge that lean on some boons/conditions/etc more than others and find some boons and conditions of minimum help/harm. In other words, getting a group to work will be more about finding synergy in abilities and strategy and adapting your build to the group. Some of this will be in making sure enough "support" and "control" are brought, but what precisely that means depends on the group to an extent. Some of it will also be in ensuring the group can handle conditions and enemies with boons.
In a game like WoW, you can clearly say it has a Trinity. Healing classes ALL bring certain elements to the table. Certain buffs can easily be found from multiple sources. All Tanks have the same set of abilities as well. The combat, class system, etc are all designed so you have little more to do then get sufficient tanks, sufficient healers, and the rest DPS. At most you might need to ensure one of many options to get an assumed buff, but this almost always takes care of itself. That sort of thing is now what is going on in GW2 as I see it. Group builds and group dynamics are more complex as are their interactions. There's a great deal of depth here due to the design.
And I just realized in my above long thing I left out combos again. But Setups and Finishers are a somewhat complicated subject, I believe.
Sorry to say but that one is false i have seen my friend do the hardest instance in Coh with only blasters ei glass canons
i will answer from the above link
Dungeon Defending
<<
Some of the key elements people need to learn are:
Guild Wars 2 differs in that a group’s success or failure can no longer be attributed to the individual (tank or healer) and instead is a collective effort by all. Accepting responsibility for your own healing, your own avoidance of damage through dodging and your own reactions to revive downed party members quickly is what Guild Wars 2’s dungeons are all about. Failing to do just one of the six above will, like other factors mentioned, see you fail repeatedly. I think that to many players can be hard to stomach, especially when the blame might lye at your own feet rather than at someone else’s.
>>
Yeah, that's probably it. I'll admit I didn't check their levels.
Though I know there's this part of me that'll be glad to learn *any* sort of applicable tanking mechanics exist in this game. I guess I just like concept.
Elementalists can play the tank role easily.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I've tanked in tons of games, EQ2 (Shadowknight), WoW (Warrior), RIFT (Paladin), TOR (Vanguard), ... You can't tank like in those games here.
A tank who can't hold aggro solidly isn't a tank, the defining aspect of a tank is not that he can mitigate or avoid damage (that comes later), it is making sure the mob is hitting you and not anyone else first and foremost.
No matter what you say, I've seen bosses in explorable modes turn around and head off for a far away group-member randomly. The aggro list resets or updates in a different way in this game, which has good and bad aspects.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Most traditional trinity tanks are useless in holding aggro against a skilled DD (not holding back much, otherwise even a bad tank is "good" since the DD don't get aggro) so they're not actually tanks then?
I agree about trinity games having aggro tools to make it work a lot easier but just thought it was a bit funny as a traditional trinity DD player.
There is no tanking, just kiteing.
And my thief doesnt need much healing, but that is because I rarely gets hit. Somne classes do prevent some damage but they all need to self heal anyways unless they stand in a well or something.
Not just kiting... there's also enemy movement restrictions that keep them getting to you as opposed to moving to keep away from them. Cripples, walls, knockbacks and knockdowns, things of this nature. That's one thing I'm working on mesmering (one of many, I might add)... keeping cripples up for a significant period of time so myself and allies have more control over positioning during a fight.
This doesn't invalidate the value of kiting in the least. But it sure makes it easier and even unnecessary for periods of time.
Oderint, dum metuant.
This needs to be retitled "Problems OP has with change".
- this post brought to you by the 'logical renaming of threads' society
Somehow I don't think that acronym is going to catch on... but to your other point I don't think any of us were saying we could "heal" the group by ourselves, simply that Mesmer can be specced to provide solid Support and Healing, just as an Elementalist can be specced for Survivability.
I've made a post (somewhere... here? the "dungeons are useless" thread?) where I stated the essence of what you wrote up (great detailed analysis btw for those who read it) in 3 words... GW2 Requires Teamwork
They can include more random encounter mechanics because more people in a group can fill multiple roles in multiple ways at multiple times, though no one is ever really completely "locked in" to a single role (just the way Weapon Skills are designed makes it hard to be doing only damage when using them).
There really is a lot of depth to the underlying system. You haven't even touched on creative uses of Boons and Conditions yet - for instance one of the Devs in an interview talked about a Swiftness-Based Support Thief because Swiftness also boosts Channeling speed that Thief could Revive people faster than anyone while using Stealth and Shadow Step for Battlefield Mobility.
The trinity in this game is...
Damage: Self Explanitory
Crowd Control (CC): Those who work ot disable or limit an enemy. This is where guardians/warriors might come in who are tanky, able to provide ways to hold the mobs away or initiate, using their 'bodies' as a form of CC along with their abilities.
Support: Basically classes that buff and provide heals. A lot of classes have this option though Engineer , Guardian, and Mesmer do an excelent job in this area.
The trinity is not dead, its shifted. You can have more flexability yes, but if you do not have these 3 components (particularly a support and CC) the difficulty with be vastly harder.
Yes, it is quite complicated, and I was well aware I left a number of details out -- but I didn't want to spend another couple hours on it. And no, I don't expect my acronym to catch on at all. But that's more or less one of my big points. Breaking it down into any sort of "trinity" just doesn't work very well for explaining the combat system. "Support" can mean lots of things and one support character can easily be bringing completely differen things to the table compared to another. I think going with "trinity" talk also tends to make people think in terms of the ridiculous overspecialization we are familiar with in Holy Trinity games. In the same way "Control" can also come in radically different flavors that do different things. In a number of ways there's even over lap in function between how one would interpret "Control" and "Support" (e.g. Aegis and Blindness are very similar in effect, yet one would traditionally be labeled as a support ability and the other as a control ability).
Again, the whole any sort of trinity description just falls far short of explaining things and I think can be detrimental towards understanding important parts of how the combat system works.
I just don't see how this is a helpful way to look at things.
Aegis and Blindness for instance, are essentially two ways of doing the same thing -- the next otherwise successful enemy attack fails. Yet Aegis is a boon and hence "support" and blindness is condition and hence "control." Looking at them from the support/control perspective is not helpful.
Further, looking at builds from a support/control perspective is quite misleading. There are lots of different sorts of support and control. There's overlap in functionality between the two. Most classes can only provide a subset of support and/or control options. A Warrior doing support is very different from a Guardian or Mesmer doing support. Same with them doing control. And again, the distinction between Support and Control in some cases does not matter because the end result is the same.
And of course, what kinds of abilities a group or individual will best utilize can vary a great deal. So it is quite possible that one "support" build won't be all that supportive to a particular group whereas another would. So how is thinking of things in terms of "support" and "control" all that useful? I'm not seeing it.
Please note I'm not arguing with you I'm agreeing with you /wink
The main reason you are hearing people refer to "the GW2 Trinity" as Damage/Support/Control is that is what the Devs themselves said.
I agree with you that it is an over-simplification, but the fact is we need some terms to "help translate GW2-think" into something a "Holy Trinity" speaker can understand. It is still a huge over-simplification but we need to start somewhere.
You, and I, and a few other people have started thinking about how GW2 works and analysing it way too much. Most people haven't. It doesn't help to go up to somebody just learning Classical Mechanics and say "no no no... this is how it really works with Special Relativity" - build the ideas and concepts slowly and then expand people's foundations.
Perhaps a better way to start is to say that all Abilities have some aspect of Damage, Control, or Support but no Profession will ever be locked into or especially effective if they only focus on one.
Not so much of a replacement for trinity as another flavor of combat mechanics. Your still thinking trinity where some class needs to hold the mob. It's not just an abilty that performs cc, dodging (evade) or backing off your dps is another way of control. GW2 combat mechanic is not new it's class swapping roles in combat is quite different though, all this makes for a much more immersive combat for all players in a group.
I am still seeing alot of sword and board types just pouring on dps in tank mental mode rather then getting in there for some dps and getting out. Swapping dps and some cc throughout the entire party is pretty much the dynamic.
I normally avoid "tank" classes, but I am going vitality/toughness guardian and it is pretty much a tank
Other than shouting at npcs to hold aggro, I'm pretty sure it is all there. In a group, I pull large groups of mobs, initiate the combat, take the hits (and self heals), and give some boosts to everyone (shouts). Plus being melee and up front you aggro pretty much everything.
Going healing spec, you can get some decent healing, but seem to need another healing spec character to do well - for what I have seen.
Have you tried that in a Dungeon yet? Just a warning it might not work so well there...
Sorry, I know you are agreeing with me. I'm just very pedantic at times.
And frankly, even special relativity is wrong -- it can't handle accelerations. And General Relativity breaks down in certain circumstances too. But more seriously, classical mechanics is still good to teach because almost everything in the everyday world follows those principles to a high degree (the error you get for not using a more precise theory is often too small to measure). The GPS system is perhaps the only exception to this.
However, I don't see the Support/Control/Damage trinity being the same. It is just not a very good way of looking at the game. I know part of the reason people bring it up is because of the Devs. But to be fair, the Devs apparently made the Dungeons harder than they could really manage because they know they aren't good at their game. So...make of that what you will.
I think we could possibly get a basic description down to 4 or 5 elements. Damage and Damage Amplification (e.g. Damage, I guess), Damage Mitigation (and Avoidance), Healing, Condition Removal, and Boon Removal. Ok, 5 things. Not sure if we can do better than that. I mean heck, Healing, Damage, and Damage Mitigation have their own stats, and Condition Removal and Boon Removal are independent of stats -- healing even has its own skill slot. The game just naturally seperates these things out.
The problem with "Control" is that most associate that with applying conditions/debuffing/boon removal. But like I said, in the game this has an overlap with how most define "Support" (buffing/booning/condition removal). And of course boon and condition removal are given out differently than healing and control effects -- to an extent, there are healing things that remove conditions, but again there are healing things that do damage.
totally agree with Creslin, this is pure bs your so called tank has the illusion he's tanking cause he's in there face but in reality it's not even built into the ai of the mob. Believe me dps is being shared with the group or he would drop. He specs out toughnes and vital and has defense buffs sure he can soak up damage but all the classes can do that. Man I'm sorry so trinity brainwashed. We proved that in beta when the the so called tank ran around and the mob didn't totally follow him around.
There are ways to manipulate aggro, and they're not as simple as doing the most damage. Once you figure out the aggro system, you'll find that the game is extremely easy.
As a Guardian, you're expected to have
- condition removal
- area denial
- sustain
- burst dps
- massive aoe dps Anything less than 260 range is melee as far I'm concerned.
- cc
If you're a guardian who doesn't have these, then good luck on Lupicus . If you're building around only one of these areas, then you're hardly what one would call optimal.
I find it a bit hilarious that less than 2 weeks into release you are declaring what a particular class MUST have for a particular fight. Because surely no other build or playstyle could work, right? And it must not matter who else is in your party either. Seems absurd to me to be certain of anything like this at this point. The meta is still in its infancy.
If you want a potentially better system, I like to think of it as Damage, Mitigation, and Buffing (or maybe Utility?).
Each of the 3 can be accomplished proactively or reactively depending upon the Ability and many Abilities provide more than one of the 3 and potentially both proactively and reactively at the same time.
"Control" is honestly nothing more than a proactive form of Damage Mitigation. If the mob can't hit you he can't hurt you.
Even Buffing is in some sense just proactive or passive Damage or Mitigation.
Don't lose sight of the forest for the trees though... the important thing we're trying to share with people is that ALL Professions have ways of doing these things and that while your character might be somewhat better at types of them based on Stats, choice of Weapons, Skills, and Traits quickly gives you access to all of them, and often at the same time.
I find it interesting that you think the meta is something that is still being explored.