Not that I am a fan of quest hubs (came up through EQ1), but how are the Heart/Event Hubs any different? Sure they Only have 1 Quest(Heart) and rather than bring me 10 Wolf Fangs, it is some combo of Wolf Fangs + Poison Wolf Food + Scare the Cattle to the Corral... Rather than a fixed number of 1 item, you just do stuff until the progress bar fills or empties.
Dress a Skunk in pretty new clothes and call it a Mink, and it is still a Skunk.
The Hearts may not lead you to the next Hub in a traditional fashion, but it sure seems like the Storyline does that job quite nicely...
Does the delivery method really matter that much? A boring quest is still a boring quest regardless of wether you have to click on an NPC to get it or if it atuomatically activates when you walk within an area. I didn't find GW2's questing to be all that innovative because at the end of the day you're still killing 10 rats and collecting their tails.
If anything, TSW took the gold for this year's innovative questing. Decyphering morse code? Yes please. Although I can see how that can turn off a lot of player considering the average attention span now days.
I just wanted to thank everyone for a truely stimulating debate. While it has gotten heated at times, I think the fact that it has generated so much opinion is good for the industry, which needs to do better and "think different."
This article is, of course, just my opinion. Many of you have a very different opinion and that is just fine.
Many of you are suggesting ways to improve DE's and take what GW2 has done even father. Next week I'll outline some things that I would love to see in MMOs in the future, and hopefully we can have a great discussion then too.
I just have one request. Please don't attack each other personally in these comments. I love to see debate, arguments and thoughtful posts, but it should not be personal. Attack the ideas with counter-ideas, yes. But please don't attack the commentor.
Thanks again for the great response, controversial though it might be. See you in the next column.
I just wanted to thank everyone for a truely stimulating debate. While it has gotten heated at times, I think the fact that it has generated so much opinion is good for the industry, which needs to do better and "think different."
This article is, of course, just my opinion. Many of you have a very different opinion and that is just fine.
Many of you are suggesting ways to improve DE's and take what GW2 has done even father. Next week I'll outline some things that I would love to see in MMOs in the future, and hopefully we can have a great discussion then too.
I just have one request. Please don't attack each other personally in these comments. I love to see debate, arguments and thoughtful posts, but it should not be personal. Attack the ideas with counter-ideas, yes. But please don't attack the commentor.
Thanks again for the great response, controversial though it might be. See you in the next column.
- Mark
Hey Mark
I think it's really great for developer's like yourself to participate on site's like this one. I appreciate it.
I myself believe a good mix is the best and the quality of the questing or progressiuon content is more important then how it is delivered.
Originally posted by Valua I still consider Heart Quests "quest hubs" because - they are.
For all its intents and purposes, they actually are. Based on their early beta, without them people will get lost apparently. Gotta give 'em something equivalent to the "!" thingy.
At least I now know what the guys who put that damn "!" in WoW looks like. Thanks for coming up with the single more annoying feature in the MMO genre. I'll let it go though because I enjoyed the article and you seem to see the error of your ways.
Ultimately, GW2 is still a theme park and ANet has done a decent job of repackaging the traditional mechanics. However, once you start to see through it, you can tell that you are still on rails and you are really on a kiddie coaster.
Mark, your writing style is light-hearted, smooth, sincere, with tinges of hidden wisdom and a great deal of insightful expertise in the gaming industry.
Really enjoy the article, can’t wait for the next one!
I'll be the first to agree the questing in GW2 is a breath of fresh air and has been fun. However, I find it hard to motivate myself to keep playing. I hit 30 and quite frankly don't feel like putting in the effort to go on. I'll agree that quest hubs can go a bit over the top but to eliminate them completely I don't think is a good idea either. I personally look forward to playing the hell out of MoP when it comes out. I think GW2 lacks longevity, sure hope they can push out a expansion within the next 6 months to a year.
"[You] mean, of course, Guild Wars 2" and The Secret World. While they go about removing quest hubs in different ways (which is ideal), they both have removed the notion of "go to city A, grab all the quests you can see, head out to complete all, return to claim rewards, off to city B"
WOW, I think this guy is trying hard to get hired by anet and show some anger at the place that dumped him.
1. Wow did not invent quest hubs. AC among others were well before WOW.. Also, almost all single player RPGs had similar ´hubs´ were you went to pick up quests.
2. Why is getting a quest from an NPC such a bad thing? For most of us... the RP is a big part of MMORPG. Yes, it is definitely convinient to not have go find an NPC to give you the quest to retrieve her stolen good.... but does it really makes sense that the UI just tells you ´hey, this person you never met wants you to retrieve stuff stolen by these guys you also never met´. To me, most autoquest (hearts) seem way too artificial. I would much rather happen upon a farm, talk to the owner, find out there is a problem, get directions to the bad guys etc... you know.. RP
Just another silly article by someone who hates wow bragging up anything from the ´new´ game that is different than WOW. Does anyone really think ´hearts´ are that significantly different than !!!!s. The writer laughs at the !s over NPCs heads, but then say how great it is that there are hearts on the map.... really? lol
Does the delivery method really matter that much? A boring quest is still a boring quest regardless of wether you have to click on an NPC to get it or if it atuomatically activates when you walk within an area. I didn't find GW2's questing to be all that innovative because at the end of the day you're still killing 10 rats and collecting their tails.
If anything, TSW took the gold for this year's innovative questing. Decyphering morse code? Yes please. Although I can see how that can turn off a lot of player considering the average attention span now days.
I think the delivery method matters very much. You're mixing up quest content and the delivery method. Boring content (eg: kill 10 rats) versus complex content (eg: deciphering a code) is different from how those are delivered (talk the the npc with the bang over their head versus contributing to the quest automatically).
One key aspect that GW2 has done differently in the deliver method is provide more than one path to completion. You can choose to kill rats until the progress bar has filled or you can choose to defend an npc or you can choose to disarm traps in the area or you can choose to do a combination of those tasks.
Another key difference is that in quest hubs there are npcs with the exclamation mark that you talk to, go out and do the deeds for, and ultimately return to them (or another down the road at a new hub) for a reward. With GW2 you only need to be in the area to contribute to that completion. You typically don't need to talk to an NPC in order to contribute, but talking to an NPC might open up other completion options or provide other insights along with role play and story.
I'm not mixing up quest content and delivery method. I clearly stated that I think the content is more important than the delivery. I don't care if a book automatically downloads and plays as an audiobook when I turn turn on my kindle or if I have to go to the bookstore and buy the paperback version. As long as the book is good, the delivery method makes no difference. A boring book is still a boring book even if Jesus himself reads it to you before bedtime.
GW2 might have changed the delivery method, but the quests are still the same bland and boring kill 10 bandits, collect rat tails and water plants. I never thought quests in MMORPG were bad because you had to talk to some guy to get the background, I think they are bad because 80% of them have you do mundane, mindless tasks.
If anything, I think TSW is the game we should all be looking up to in terms of innovating the questing system. It's too bad people are getting too caught up on the wether you need to click on an exclamation mark or not to realize the real issue behind quests in MMORPGs.
Originally posted by Reas43 You know. This website would garner more hits if it just dropped the facade and renamed itself GW2MRPG.com your site for all things good and positive about GW2, dissenting editorial pieces will not be harbored!
Ha i think some poeple are jumping the gun with the "quest hubs are dead" statements and that doesn't even adrress the fact it's still the same old same old, you just don't have to click on a npc is all.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
2. Why is getting a quest from an NPC such a bad thing? For most of us... the RP is a big part of MMORPG. Yes, it is definitely convinient to not have go find an NPC to give you the quest to retrieve her stolen good.... but does it really makes sense that the UI just tells you ´hey, this person you never met wants you to retrieve stuff stolen by these guys you also never met´. To me, most autoquest (hearts) seem way too artificial. I would much rather happen upon a farm, talk to the owner, find out there is a problem, get directions to the bad guys etc... you know.. RP
Isn't this setup better for RPing? In GW2, the "problem" that the farmer is having does not wait for you to talk to the farmer in order to happen. As a matter of fact, in most cases of other MMOs, they don't really happen. You just get a description of their plight and off you go to kill them or collect loot., while they're wandering in the open.
You can still talk to the hearts people in GW2 and they will give you a clearer background of what's going on. I actually prefer this for RPing.
Another average MMO, nothing too challenging..... lets get some real large worlds back in play and a bit of longevity so a real community gets to form. Then we can jump up and down a little.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Should follow an article like that with an obligatory "/end sarcasm", just so we know you're not completely full of it.
GW2 is nothing but quest hubs along it's PvE leveling rails. They're marked prominantly on the map with a heart outline for the ones you haven't completed, and by solid hearts for the ones you have. The only differences between them and previous games hubs is that you can mouse over these on the map to see the hubs level, and you don't have to chat with an npc to accept the handfull of quests that each hub offers.
great .. super .. except all gw2 delivers for it's removal of quest hubs is the exact same linear gameplay we have seen since .. forever.
so the zone gives you a quest to kill 10 centaurs instead of an NPC. Is this really what passes for revolutionary around here?
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Yes, GW2 has a slightly different themepark formula but in the end it is really just another themepark. The world doesnt really change and the player (like most other MMOs) is simply along for the ride. I hope some developers actually dare to do something radically different- a living, beathing world where the players can actually change things for real.
Comments
Not that I am a fan of quest hubs (came up through EQ1), but how are the Heart/Event Hubs any different? Sure they Only have 1 Quest(Heart) and rather than bring me 10 Wolf Fangs, it is some combo of Wolf Fangs + Poison Wolf Food + Scare the Cattle to the Corral... Rather than a fixed number of 1 item, you just do stuff until the progress bar fills or empties.
Dress a Skunk in pretty new clothes and call it a Mink, and it is still a Skunk.
The Hearts may not lead you to the next Hub in a traditional fashion, but it sure seems like the Storyline does that job quite nicely...
Does the delivery method really matter that much? A boring quest is still a boring quest regardless of wether you have to click on an NPC to get it or if it atuomatically activates when you walk within an area. I didn't find GW2's questing to be all that innovative because at the end of the day you're still killing 10 rats and collecting their tails.
If anything, TSW took the gold for this year's innovative questing. Decyphering morse code? Yes please. Although I can see how that can turn off a lot of player considering the average attention span now days.
I just wanted to thank everyone for a truely stimulating debate. While it has gotten heated at times, I think the fact that it has generated so much opinion is good for the industry, which needs to do better and "think different."
This article is, of course, just my opinion. Many of you have a very different opinion and that is just fine.
Many of you are suggesting ways to improve DE's and take what GW2 has done even father. Next week I'll outline some things that I would love to see in MMOs in the future, and hopefully we can have a great discussion then too.
I just have one request. Please don't attack each other personally in these comments. I love to see debate, arguments and thoughtful posts, but it should not be personal. Attack the ideas with counter-ideas, yes. But please don't attack the commentor.
Thanks again for the great response, controversial though it might be. See you in the next column.
- Mark
Follow me on <a href="https://twitter.com/grummz">Twitter: @Grummz<;/a>
Hey Mark
I think it's really great for developer's like yourself to participate on site's like this one. I appreciate it.
I myself believe a good mix is the best and the quality of the questing or progressiuon content is more important then how it is delivered.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
For all its intents and purposes, they actually are. Based on their early beta, without them people will get lost apparently. Gotta give 'em something equivalent to the "!" thingy.
At least I now know what the guys who put that damn "!" in WoW looks like. Thanks for coming up with the single more annoying feature in the MMO genre. I'll let it go though because I enjoyed the article and you seem to see the error of your ways.
Ultimately, GW2 is still a theme park and ANet has done a decent job of repackaging the traditional mechanics. However, once you start to see through it, you can tell that you are still on rails and you are really on a kiddie coaster.
(Space Mountain)
Mark, your writing style is light-hearted, smooth, sincere, with tinges of hidden wisdom and a great deal of insightful expertise in the gaming industry.
Really enjoy the article, can’t wait for the next one!
WOW, I think this guy is trying hard to get hired by anet and show some anger at the place that dumped him.
1. Wow did not invent quest hubs. AC among others were well before WOW.. Also, almost all single player RPGs had similar ´hubs´ were you went to pick up quests.
2. Why is getting a quest from an NPC such a bad thing? For most of us... the RP is a big part of MMORPG. Yes, it is definitely convinient to not have go find an NPC to give you the quest to retrieve her stolen good.... but does it really makes sense that the UI just tells you ´hey, this person you never met wants you to retrieve stuff stolen by these guys you also never met´. To me, most autoquest (hearts) seem way too artificial. I would much rather happen upon a farm, talk to the owner, find out there is a problem, get directions to the bad guys etc... you know.. RP
Just another silly article by someone who hates wow bragging up anything from the ´new´ game that is different than WOW. Does anyone really think ´hearts´ are that significantly different than !!!!s. The writer laughs at the !s over NPCs heads, but then say how great it is that there are hearts on the map.... really? lol
I'm not mixing up quest content and delivery method. I clearly stated that I think the content is more important than the delivery. I don't care if a book automatically downloads and plays as an audiobook when I turn turn on my kindle or if I have to go to the bookstore and buy the paperback version. As long as the book is good, the delivery method makes no difference. A boring book is still a boring book even if Jesus himself reads it to you before bedtime.
GW2 might have changed the delivery method, but the quests are still the same bland and boring kill 10 bandits, collect rat tails and water plants. I never thought quests in MMORPG were bad because you had to talk to some guy to get the background, I think they are bad because 80% of them have you do mundane, mindless tasks.
If anything, I think TSW is the game we should all be looking up to in terms of innovating the questing system. It's too bad people are getting too caught up on the wether you need to click on an exclamation mark or not to realize the real issue behind quests in MMORPGs.
Yawn.
Ha i think some poeple are jumping the gun with the "quest hubs are dead" statements and that doesn't even adrress the fact it's still the same old same old, you just don't have to click on a npc is all.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
This is the one honest to god evolution that I want to thank GW2 for.
I'm glad it brought back Dark Age of Camelot's RvR, even if in a slightly worse state.
But getting rid of quest hubs is a good step back to what made MMOs good, before WoW ruined things for a long long time.
Isn't this setup better for RPing? In GW2, the "problem" that the farmer is having does not wait for you to talk to the farmer in order to happen. As a matter of fact, in most cases of other MMOs, they don't really happen. You just get a description of their plight and off you go to kill them or collect loot., while they're wandering in the open.
You can still talk to the hearts people in GW2 and they will give you a clearer background of what's going on. I actually prefer this for RPing.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Should follow an article like that with an obligatory "/end sarcasm", just so we know you're not completely full of it.
GW2 is nothing but quest hubs along it's PvE leveling rails. They're marked prominantly on the map with a heart outline for the ones you haven't completed, and by solid hearts for the ones you have. The only differences between them and previous games hubs is that you can mouse over these on the map to see the hubs level, and you don't have to chat with an npc to accept the handfull of quests that each hub offers.
Welcome to MMORPG.Com!
so quest hubs are dead huh?
great .. super .. except all gw2 delivers for it's removal of quest hubs is the exact same linear gameplay we have seen since .. forever.
so the zone gives you a quest to kill 10 centaurs instead of an NPC. Is this really what passes for revolutionary around here?
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already