It was a different time in MMO gaming then. Community mattered, guilds mattered, and your guild leader was someone who wanted to lead, not just someone who thought they made up a cool sounding name. All that 'end game' crap everyone complains about non-stop? Yeah, your guild/alliance leaders provided that. Loot was something to be shared, not something to be horded and bickered over. And we played in groups, not because the content required it, but because it was fun to get to know other people between pulls. Yes, you had the occasional asshat, but they were blacklisted instead of celebrated.
I started MMO during UO/EQ .. it was certainly a very different time then. It was LESS FUN. Too much dependency on other people. Groups took forever to form. And loot is so rare that you can camp for HOURS without any progression to show.
In short, we played to have fun, to hang with our friends, and kill crap. If you got a cool glowy sword out of the deal: Bonus!
In short, i had very little fun. I didn't want to hang with friends. I have real life people to hang with. I want to play a multiplayer game and the games put up road blocks for me to do that. And you can only read about all the wonderful fun loot, and never seen one, unless you buy one with real money on eBay.
(I remember going on a dragon raid once with my alliance. I had a serise of really bad rolls and won no loot at all. I wasn't upset by it, didn't say a word about it, but the raid leader sent me a whisper and asked if I had gotten anything. I told him I hadn't, but it wasn't a big deal. He said, "Everyone gets something on my raids" and traded me some piece of crap drop that no one would have wanted for anything other than vendor fodder. It was glowy and pretty, but the sword I had was "better". Even though the sword was worth nothing as far as stats or usability, I still remember it years later.)
I remember camping Lower Guk for 6 hours. 90% of the time was boring chit-chat because there are 50 people in front of me to kill the boss, and i wasted all that time with nothing to show. Worst gaming experience i have had. Quit EQ shortly after.
As much as I miss the social aspects that I find lacking in today's games, I miss not winning the most. Maybe I'm one of those rare video game masochists, but I didn't mind that it took me forever to get my first level 50. I didn't mind having to sit and wait for my mana/heath/endurance to regen after a fight or 2. It gave me time to talk to my guild, to plan events, to buff or heal or (heaven forbid) help that guy next to me having a bitch of a time with a bad pull. I didn't mind that, if I messed up and died, that there was a consequence for it. To me, these things added a sense of realism to a world of swords and magic in which resurrection miracles were a common occurrence.
I don't miss it at all. MMORP .. GAMES are much better today. I am glad devs finally see the light and put in features like LFD/LFR (yes, no more wasting time forming groups), less dead time (yes .. no more waiting 20 min on a boat), less restriction whom you can play with (yes .. cross realm groups), no more loot drama (yes .. roll your own loot in MOP).
I mean, If I just swung that giant sword 30 times to kill a Mystical Bunny of Doom, I'd want to sit down before attacking the next one too.
You want to sit down and stare at the spellbook for 10 min? I don't. I am glad i do not have to. BTW, if you still want to sit down before attacking the next one, you still can. Just sit down and do nothing .. or even AFK. It is still allowed, you know.
(Oh and speaking of giant swords... For the love of all things holy, give me a sword that is proportionate to my charcater again.)
And I want PvP again, not what passes for PvP. I want a persistent, on going, never ending struggle. I don't want a timed match, or to slaughter my enemies by gaining more points. I want to slaughter my enemies by slaughtering my damned enemies. I don't care if its just me and Bob against 30,000 rampaging trolls. Bob and I will die; horribly, repeatedly, and with great prejudice. But that's ok. Next time I'll bring more friends( and Bob is useless anyway). Until then Bob and I will laugh and boast that it took every last one of those 30,000 tolls to take us down.
And no .. i don't like world pvp at all. If i want to pvp (which is rare), i will only play e-sport type pvp. Quick in, quick out, fair, and no griefing.
Times are MUCH better now compared to when MMOs started. Now that is progression.
It was a different time in MMO gaming then. Community mattered, guilds mattered, and your guild leader was someone who wanted to lead, not just someone who thought they made up a cool sounding name. All that 'end game' crap everyone complains about non-stop? Yeah, your guild/alliance leaders provided that. Loot was something to be shared, not something to be horded and bickered over. And we played in groups, not because the content required it, but because it was fun to get to know other people between pulls. Yes, you had the occasional asshat, but they were blacklisted instead of celebrated.
...
And I want PvP again, not what passes for PvP. I want a persistent, on going, never ending struggle. I don't want a timed match, or to slaughter my enemies by gaining more points. I want to slaughter my enemies by slaughtering my damned enemies. I don't care if its just me and Bob against 30,000 rampaging trolls. Bob and I will die; horribly, repeatedly, and with great prejudice. But that's ok. Next time I'll bring more friends( and Bob is useless anyway). Until then Bob and I will laugh and boast that it took every last one of those 30,000 tolls to take us down.
Very good post, Wardop, and I so share your opinion. By the way, DAoC was my first MMORPG as well.
Sadly, this type of community is lost and can only be found in small niche games today. Everything else went mainstream and chased the millions of people buying the games with the built-in I-win-buttons.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I totally agree with OP. I even played ashen empires too hehe
I've always thought of MMO players as masochists. We like to get hurt and die. We like to suffer long grueling hours of mundane crafting. And We absolutely love it when we go through so much to get to a boss, only to get our arses handed to us, and the boss just sits there laughing us taking our dirt naps.
Edit: This is one reason why I like Rift, the raids aren't easy at all, and you go in expecting to die.
Originally posted by Wardop I cut my MMO teeth on Dark Age of Camelot about a decade ago, so my opinion is naturally biased(I'm not talking DAoC post TOA in this little rant). I played WoW off and on over the years(have never level capped WoW, just can't bring myself to play that long), played a lot of EvE, and a few other titles for a couple months here and there. But my MMO love will always be DAoC.
It was a different time in MMO gaming then. Community mattered, guilds mattered, and your guild leader was someone who wanted to lead, not just someone who thought they made up a cool sounding name. All that 'end game' crap everyone complains about non-stop? Yeah, your guild/alliance leaders provided that. Loot was something to be shared, not something to be horded and bickered over. And we played in groups, not because the content required it, but because it was fun to get to know other people between pulls. Yes, you had the occasional asshat, but they were blacklisted instead of celebrated.
In short, we played to have fun, to hang with our friends, and kill crap. If you got a cool glowy sword out of the deal: Bonus!
(I remember going on a dragon raid once with my alliance. I had a serise of really bad rolls and won no loot at all. I wasn't upset by it, didn't say a word about it, but the raid leader sent me a whisper and asked if I had gotten anything. I told him I hadn't, but it wasn't a big deal. He said, "Everyone gets something on my raids" and traded me some piece of crap drop that no one would have wanted for anything other than vendor fodder. It was glowy and pretty, but the sword I had was "better". Even though the sword was worth nothing as far as stats or usability, I still remember it years later.)
I'm not saying it was a utopian society or anything. We fought and bickered. Guilds hated each other, guild mates hated each other. You had elitist pricks and nubs like me who wanted to be elitist pricks someday. But, a vast majority of the people you ran into would at least talk to you. Yes, the game itself was buggy and poorly balanced and we bitched and whined about it as well. And if you didn't have a buff bot(a second account used solely for giving yourself buffs), you'd better give your guild cleric/shaman/druid a weekly reach-round.
As much as I miss the social aspects that I find lacking in today's games, I miss not winning the most. Maybe I'm one of those rare video game masochists, but I didn't mind that it took me forever to get my first level 50. I didn't mind having to sit and wait for my mana/heath/endurance to regen after a fight or 2. It gave me time to talk to my guild, to plan events, to buff or heal or (heaven forbid) help that guy next to me having a bitch of a time with a bad pull. I didn't mind that, if I messed up and died, that there was a consequence for it. To me, these things added a sense of realism to a world of swords and magic in which resurrection miracles were a common occurrence.
I mean, If I just swung that giant sword 30 times to kill a Mystical Bunny of Doom, I'd want to sit down before attacking the next one too.
(Oh and speaking of giant swords... For the love of all things holy, give me a sword that is proportionate to my charcater again.)
And I want PvP again, not what passes for PvP. I want a persistent, on going, never ending struggle. I don't want a timed match, or to slaughter my enemies by gaining more points. I want to slaughter my enemies by slaughtering my damned enemies. I don't care if its just me and Bob against 30,000 rampaging trolls. Bob and I will die; horribly, repeatedly, and with great prejudice. But that's ok. Next time I'll bring more friends( and Bob is useless anyway). Until then Bob and I will laugh and boast that it took every last one of those 30,000 tolls to take us down.
I'm going to provide the counterpoint. No I'm not doing it to say that you are completely wrong, but just to illustrate that nothing as really changed. And note this is coming from EQ I played Daoc for about a month only.
Communities weren't better, EQ had to implement a play nice policy just because people were such jerks, people talk about the golden community but that policy right there refutes it. People deliberately griefed other guilds/groups on plane runs, preventing them from advancing.
Guilds did not matter more than than they do now. Some were great, looking at you legacy of honor, fantastic guild. Some were just plain crap. Some had great leaders, some were just looking for people to pl them, and be on hand to get them keyed.
Reputation did not matter, despite what people think. Black lists were routinely ignored. People scammed other people, ninja'd loot, their name went around the server for a day but somehow magically they all had great gear that requires dedicated group and raids to get. So obviously the black list was compeletey pointless.
There were no social aspects implented in most of the games (SWG had cantina's thats it). The only thing that made people talk was they had to find a group, and there was a heck of a lot of downtime.
Thats why nothing has changed. The people are the same. Some good, some bad. Some jerks, some nice. Good guild bad guilds. If someone had done a percentage then I would say the percentage was the same today.
I'd say it was your server of choice. Everything the OP said described my EQ server (Ayonae Ro) to a T.
To the OP...although it is laggy, buggy, and older....you should give Vanguard: Saga of Heroes a whirl. It's F2P up to lvl 20. They are fixing it steadily now, and is a LOT like our MMORPG's of old. Been playing for almost a month now (Did the beta) religiously and enjoying it a LOT. Dungeon crawls (Not quite as slow as EQ, etc, but still crawls in comparison to the new stuff) and actually talking to people and making friends again, HUGE world where you walk into a dungeon without a load screen, etc.
One of the reason we've noticed this major change in communities' behaviors over the years (I'm a UO - RO player and I know exactly how you feel) is quite simple to me : Accountabiliy.
Back then, when you invested a bunch of time in your character, you knew deep down that if you ninja looted or decided to be a dumbass 24/7, most relevant guilds on the server would blacklist you and your chances to be 'successful' and have a good time in the game would be heavily hindered.
I think the reasons that tight community aren't a common occurence anymore is quite simple and isn't simply caused by the change of generation. The developpers made decisions that brought this obvious change.
In the early days of WoW, the feeling of being part of a community feeling was VERY present on your server. I clearly remeber (without rose-tinted glasses) that WoW's community was far from what it is today. The server forums for instance were heavily used every single day and assholes would have their wall of fame displayed on it. People were accountable for their action. After putting 300 hours on your character, you wouldn't want to have every major guild blacklisting you if you ever wanted to be part of them.
It changed when developpers started adding features such as :
Name change.
Faction change.
Server transfer.
"LFG" tools. (this one is HUGE imo)
Cross-server player matching and content.
I don't have time to specifically explain exactly how I think these features brought the changes that we see today in communities but you guys can probably get an idea of why people's attitude changed when they knew they could move their 500 hours played character anywhere, change its name and faction and also when players started playing with other players they knew they'd never see again.
I think the reasons that tight community aren't a common occurence anymore is quite simple and isn't simply caused by the change of generation. The developpers made decisions that brought this obvious change.
The developers brought this change because of player demand. And i don't believe people want the "old community" that much. I think people just want to play a assessible fun game, and sometimes with no string attached.
I think the reasons that tight community aren't a common occurence anymore is quite simple and isn't simply caused by the change of generation. The developpers made decisions that brought this obvious change.
The developers brought this change because of player demand. And i don't believe people want the "old community" that much. I think people just want to play a assessible fun game, and sometimes with no string attached.
I think this is a case of "be careful what you wish for". I watched the players demand the changes that made leveling faster, grouping unnecessary, loot really matter. Then I watched those self-same players bitch and moan about it.
I liked my game as it was. I could, just as easily as today, log in for an hour and have fun. Sure, i might not have leveled, might not have made a crap ton of gold, and probably wouldn't make a significant dent in my ex bar. But those weren't MY goals. My goals were to have some fun, kill some stuff, and catch up with my e-buddies.
But, I'm a bit weird. I didn't mind imbalanced classes, it just mean that I had to work around them. I didn't mind the non-game breaking bugs (like falling through the floor of Camelot and ending up in that fountain). I didn't mind being out numbered in PvP, or out played. And I didn't mind that there were some things I couldn't do unless I had friends to help.
I think this is a case of "be careful what you wish for". I watched the players demand the changes that made leveling faster, grouping unnecessary, loot really matter. Then I watched those self-same players bitch and moan about it.
I liked my game as it was. I could, just as easily as today, log in for an hour and have fun. Sure, i might not have leveled, might not have made a crap ton of gold, and probably wouldn't make a signifiant dent in my ex bar. But those weren't MY goals. My goals were to have some fun, kill some stuff, and catch up with my e-buddies.
But, I'm a bit weird. I didn't mind imbalanced classes, it just mean that I had to work around them. I didn't mind the non-game breaking bugs (like falling through the floor of Camelot and ending up in that fountain). I didn't mind being out numbered in PvP, or out played. And I didn't mind that there were some things I couldn't do unless I had friends to help.
Still don't
Another excellent reply I wholeheartedly agree with.
One of the reason we've noticed this major change in communities' behaviors over the years (I'm a UO - RO player and I know exactly how you feel) is quite simple to me : Accountabiliy.
Back then, when you invested a bunch of time in your character, you knew deep down that if you ninja looted or decided to be a dumbass 24/7, most relevant guilds on the server would blacklist you and your chances to be 'successful' and have a good time in the game would be heavily hindered.
I think the reasons that tight community aren't a common occurence anymore is quite simple and isn't simply caused by the change of generation. The developpers made decisions that brought this obvious change.
In the early days of WoW, the feeling of being part of a community feeling was VERY present on your server. I clearly remeber (without rose-tinted glasses) that WoW's community was far from what it is today. The server forums for instance were heavily used every single day and assholes would have their wall of fame displayed on it. People were accountable for their action. After putting 300 hours on your character, you wouldn't want to have every major guild blacklisting you if you ever wanted to be part of them.
It changed when developpers started adding features such as :
Name change.
Faction change.
Server transfer.
"LFG" tools. (this one is HUGE imo)
Cross-server player matching and content.
I don't have time to specifically explain exactly how I think these features brought the changes that we see today in communities but you guys can probably get an idea of why people's attitude changed when they knew they could move their 500 hours played character anywhere, change its name and faction and also when players started playing with other players they knew they'd never see again.
I agree with all your points here, especially name changes. I remember when your name was set in stone, and people knew who you were even if you left the game for awhile and came back. Now, your name gets wiped after so long of inactivity on a closed account so someone else might be able to get that name. Server changes as well, this is something I think only devs should be able to affect. LFG tools also take away from having to actually converse with people you don't know in order to get something accomplished.
I think making games less group-intensive was the beginning. In my eyes there's never been an MMO experience quite up to par with EQ or FFXI, since they used practically the same mechanics. Sure, it took a long time to get where you wanted to be, and you had to have patience and people skills to a point, but it was FUN.
Couldn't agree more with the OP, and Kyleran added more to it..
What server/faction did you play on? I was on Percival/Albion. God, I remember the countless hours and fun times my wife and I had with groups in Lyonesse pulling tree and pygmys spawns. You had to wait to get there because they would only spawn so fast, so only so many groups at a time could do it, so you might way 2 or 3 hours until a spot opened up in a group.
It was a good 8 or so months until I actually got my first set of epic armor at the end of the Paladin quest chain, and it was awesome, because for ME to get it, it required I had at least 24 other people to help. Good friends, a good reputation, and general civility made the experience much easier, and much more enjoyable.
Shrouded Isles I still remember as the singularly best example of an expansion pack done right for an MMO. I don't know what it was about it, but it was perfectly executed IMO.
The crafting took time and dedication. The persistant RVR zones, the persistant battlegrounds.. Just perfect.
Then came Trials of Atlantis... That's when the ball was dropped.
C'est la vie. It was a great experience.. Lightning in a bottle that we'll likely never see again.
I was on Gawaine/Alb. I got lucky with my epic armor, it was only a few weeks for me after I hit 50. But the months, if not a year, that it took to reach that 50 made that armor mean something to me. Yeah, maybe I attach too much personal value to those hard to get items, but thats what made it worthwile to me.
I wonder if todays gaming community would embrace things like DF now-a-days. Or if they would complain that it was something pve that you had to pvp for. That having it provided an 'unfair' advantage.
One of the reason we've noticed this major change in communities' behaviors over the years (I'm a UO - RO player and I know exactly how you feel) is quite simple to me : Accountabiliy
Back then, when you invested a bunch of time in your character, you knew deep down that if you ninja looted or decided to be a dumbass 24/7, most relevant guilds on the server would blacklist you and your chances to be 'successful' and have a good time in the game would be heavily hindered.
I think the reasons that tight community aren't a common occurence anymore is quite simple and isn't simply caused by the change of generation. The developpers made decisions that brought this obvious change.
In the early days of WoW, the feeling of being part of a community feeling was VERY present on your server. I clearly remeber (without rose-tinted glasses) that WoW's community was far from what it is today. The server forums for instance were heavily used every single day and assholes would have their wall of fame displayed on it. People were accountable for their action. After putting 300 hours on your character, you wouldn't want to have every major guild blacklisting you if you ever wanted to be part of them.
It changed when developpers started adding features such as :
Name change.
Faction change.
Server transfer.
"LFG" tools. (this one is HUGE imo)
Cross-server player matching and content.
I don't have time to specifically explain exactly how I think these features brought the changes that we see today in communities but you guys can probably get an idea of why people's attitude changed when they knew they could move their 500 hours played character anywhere, change its name and faction and also when players started playing with other players they knew they'd never see again.
I can see your points, and those mechanics do help make it easier to disassociate from the general populous. But, if we are talking WoW specifically, I've a different theory as the why things changed so drastically. I was excited for WoW. I prepurchased the game, did the early head start thing, had a group of people I knew from DAoC that we formed a guild with. Inside the guild things were great. Outside the guild, it was about 50/50.
Pre-WoW, people trickled into the games. They met some random guy who gave them a bit of gold to help get started, because they were new. They saw some other random person help them with that stupid Magical Bunny of Doom that they just couldn't kill. Some other random guy dropped a drive by buff on them. They got int a leveling group and people talked to them. Basically, they were taught by example that this is how you interact. And one by one, two by two, people learned.
WoW came out, and 150,000 of us who had started out as that new guy, then became the random guy helping out, mixed with 1,000,000 people who had never played a MMO. There weren't enough of us to teach online MMO social interaction 101. Thus a new culture arose, one that placed the emphasis on the individual, not the group. And WoW capitalized on it and nurtured it.
I'm not knocking WoW. I think its a fun game for short periods of time. I simply miss the gaming culture before the change.
I think the reasons that tight community aren't a common occurence anymore is quite simple and isn't simply caused by the change of generation. The developpers made decisions that brought this obvious change.
The developers brought this change because of player demand. And i don't believe people want the "old community" that much. I think people just want to play a assessible fun game, and sometimes with no string attached.
I think this is a case of "be careful what you wish for". I watched the players demand the changes that made leveling faster, grouping unnecessary, loot really matter. Then I watched those self-same players bitch and moan about it.
I liked my game as it was. I could, just as easily as today, log in for an hour and have fun. Sure, i might not have leveled, might not have made a crap ton of gold, and probably wouldn't make a significant dent in my ex bar. But those weren't MY goals. My goals were to have some fun, kill some stuff, and catch up with my e-buddies.
But, I'm a bit weird. I didn't mind imbalanced classes, it just mean that I had to work around them. I didn't mind the non-game breaking bugs (like falling through the floor of Camelot and ending up in that fountain). I didn't mind being out numbered in PvP, or out played. And I didn't mind that there were some things I couldn't do unless I had friends to help.
Still don't
*edited because I can't spell "significant"
I don't have to be careful. I already got what i wish for. Diablo 3, WOW, DCUO, Borderlands 2 .... are all very assessible, co-op multiplayer games.
And i am perfectly fine having fun with them.
You never see me bitch and moan about fast grouping ... in fact, i said it many times, the only reason why i went bak to WOW, is because of LFR.
And loot only matters if you have a chance to get it. It does NOT matter to me if one piece takes 10 hours of camping, i just don't have that time.
While I agree that there were ofcourse many jerks and selfish people back in the old days too, I do have to say communities were tighter.
Reputaion did matter much more than it does nowadays where you never see most of the people you meet ever again.
For one, leveling speed was much slower, so you kept meeting the same people for longer periods. Noone quickly outleveled you and moved on to different zones in a playsession or two.
Server populations were also lower back then. I guess both due to technical reasons and the players being more casual nowadays (can cram more of them onto a server due to less playtime each)
Also, you needed to group for decent progress (especially high levels). If you look at DAoC for instance, there were only a few really good spots in a realm for the last levels. With a bad rep you wouldn't have gotten into those groups.
Also you had tight knit communities in RvR and also some smaller ones in the battlegrounds, where you basically knew every regular player, even in the enemy realms. I actually made some really good friends I still play games with 10 years later after meeting them as enemies first.
Nowadays, with all the instancing and shuffling around, you don't really remember anyone you played with or against in a PvP match. Noone is known or feared, you are an anonymous blip in a mass of anonymous blips. Same for dungeon runs. You get thrown together, you kill stuff without any communication, you never meet each other again.
I think the reasons that tight community aren't a common occurence anymore is quite simple and isn't simply caused by the change of generation. The developpers made decisions that brought this obvious change.
The developers brought this change because of player demand. And i don't believe people want the "old community" that much. I think people just want to play a assessible fun game, and sometimes with no string attached.
I think this is a case of "be careful what you wish for". I watched the players demand the changes that made leveling faster, grouping unnecessary, loot really matter. Then I watched those self-same players bitch and moan about it.
I liked my game as it was. I could, just as easily as today, log in for an hour and have fun. Sure, i might not have leveled, might not have made a crap ton of gold, and probably wouldn't make a significant dent in my ex bar. But those weren't MY goals. My goals were to have some fun, kill some stuff, and catch up with my e-buddies.
But, I'm a bit weird. I didn't mind imbalanced classes, it just mean that I had to work around them. I didn't mind the non-game breaking bugs (like falling through the floor of Camelot and ending up in that fountain). I didn't mind being out numbered in PvP, or out played. And I didn't mind that there were some things I couldn't do unless I had friends to help.
Still don't
*edited because I can't spell "significant"
I don't have to be careful. I already got what i wish for. Diablo 3, WOW, DCUO, Borderlands 2 .... are all very assessible, co-op multiplayer games.
And i am perfectly fine having fun with them.
You never see me bitch and moan about fast grouping ... in fact, i said it many times, the only reason why i went bak to WOW, is because of LFR.
And loot only matters if you have a chance to get it. It does NOT matter to me if one piece takes 10 hours of camping, i just don't have that time.
And I'm glad you enjoy these thing. It's just a difference of opinion and likes.
While I agree that there were ofcourse many jerks and selfish people back in the old days too, I do have to say communities were tighter.
Reputaion did matter much more than it does nowadays where you never see most of the people you meet ever again.
For one, leveling speed was much slower, so you kept meeting the same people for longer periods. Noone quickly outleveled you and moved on to different zones in a playsession or two.
Server populations were also lower back then. I guess both due to technical reasons and the players being more casual nowadays (can cram more of them onto a server due to less playtime each)
Also, you needed to group for decent progress (especially high levels). If you look at DAoC for instance, there were only a few really good spots in a realm for the last levels. With a bad rep you wouldn't have gotten into those groups.
Also you had tight knit communities in RvR and also some smaller ones in the battlegrounds, where you basically knew every regular player, even in the enemy realms. I actually made some really good friends I still play games with 10 years later after meeting them as enemies first.
Nowadays, with all the instancing and shuffling around, you don't really remember anyone you played with or against in a PvP match. Noone is known or feared, you are an anonymous blip in a mass of anonymous blips. Same for dungeon runs. You get thrown together, you kill stuff without any communication, you never meet each other again.
Oh yeah, there were and will always be jerks and assholes. Back then I had a few guys I absolutely hated, and I'm sure they disliked me just as much. But, it wasn't the norm to be an ass, it wasn't acceptable.
"I actually made some really good friends I still play games with 10 years later after meeting them as enemies first."
You knew you friends and recognized your enemies. A good fight was a reason to be happy, even if you lost, not a reason to asshat the guy next time you killed him. I had a friend who played on another realm, we fought each other in one of the battle grounds, and I won (amazingly enough). After I ashatted him, as a joke, then saluted him. Not 5 minutes had passed before my GM whispered me to chastize me for being disrespectful, and telling me our guild didn't 'asshat'. After I explained that he was a personal friend of mine who I knew was laughing on the other end of the interwebs, it was all good.
But the point is, you didn't act like a jerk, or you got called out for it. No less than 10 people who saw me took the time to look up my guild leader and let him know what I had done. They did it because it mattered.
I do hate it when they fix the fun glitches. Falling thru the floors into the fountain was hilarious more an annoying, just so long as you didn't do it repeatedly *wink*. Or the octopus you could pull and it would eat everyone in the entire zone, including you (fun for those of us born with Godzilla envy). My 1st game was FFXI but I played WoW when it first came out as well.
I am like stuck between Conservatives and Liberals with this. I find myself agreeing with both sides. And wonder, is all blame on the developers? Or is it television's influence? People who grew up on Sherlock Homes and John Wayne might have an idea of what "moral" really means. Whereas people who grow up watching Jerry Springer and Freddie Cruger might not be so well informed. Just a thought.
If I have not spelled my point out enough; you are not getting bad players because of game design. You are getting bad players because parents are raising nasty brats. It is easy to raise a nasty brat. Just be a self-centered jerk (religious and pagan alike). It's not everyone of course. Thus there are still good players out there somewhere.
So tell me, OP Wardop, how did your parents raise you?
+1 from me, OP. Personally, I miss being blind while meditating. Weird I know, but it was pretty exciting having to listen to your speakers to tell if you were about to get jumped. And no one, NO one, has ever surpassed EQ's implementation of Blind - you couldn't even see your hotkeys, entire screen was black.
We players brought a lot of the changes on ourselves, though. Anyone remember the advent of KEI in EQ? For Non-EQ-ers, it was a massive mana regen spell.
It changed the game significantly. People would run to big towns and sit around in crowds waiting for someone to cast an AE KEI.
I think the reasons that tight community aren't a common occurence anymore is quite simple and isn't simply caused by the change of generation. The developpers made decisions that brought this obvious change.
The developers brought this change because of player demand. And i don't believe people want the "old community" that much. I think people just want to play a assessible fun game, and sometimes with no string attached.
I think this is a case of "be careful what you wish for". I watched the players demand the changes that made leveling faster, grouping unnecessary, loot really matter. Then I watched those self-same players bitch and moan about it.
I liked my game as it was. I could, just as easily as today, log in for an hour and have fun. Sure, i might not have leveled, might not have made a crap ton of gold, and probably wouldn't make a significant dent in my ex bar. But those weren't MY goals. My goals were to have some fun, kill some stuff, and catch up with my e-buddies.
But, I'm a bit weird. I didn't mind imbalanced classes, it just mean that I had to work around them. I didn't mind the non-game breaking bugs (like falling through the floor of Camelot and ending up in that fountain). I didn't mind being out numbered in PvP, or out played. And I didn't mind that there were some things I couldn't do unless I had friends to help.
Still don't
*edited because I can't spell "significant"
I don't have to be careful. I already got what i wish for. Diablo 3, WOW, DCUO, Borderlands 2 .... are all very assessible, co-op multiplayer games.
And i am perfectly fine having fun with them.
You never see me bitch and moan about fast grouping ... in fact, i said it many times, the only reason why i went bak to WOW, is because of LFR.
And loot only matters if you have a chance to get it. It does NOT matter to me if one piece takes 10 hours of camping, i just don't have that time.
You kind of proved my point.
As you said, you have exactly what you want, Multiplayer co-op games. That you put WoW, D3 and Borderlands2 in the same category, kind of makes me fear for the future of this genre...
While you are perfectly fine with that, a lot of us would love to have some aspects of our classic MMORPGs back. The social and political aspects that we used to see in MMORPGs was an extra layer of depth that many of us loved. It was more than a simple multiplayer co-op experience.
You also said in your previous post :
" I think people just want to play a assessible fun game, and sometimes with no string attached."
I agree, some people probably want that. There are TONS of game that give you that experience.
I think the reasons that tight community aren't a common occurence anymore is quite simple and isn't simply caused by the change of generation. The developpers made decisions that brought this obvious change.
The developers brought this change because of player demand. And i don't believe people want the "old community" that much. I think people just want to play a assessible fun game, and sometimes with no string attached.
I think this is a case of "be careful what you wish for". I watched the players demand the changes that made leveling faster, grouping unnecessary, loot really matter. Then I watched those self-same players bitch and moan about it.
I liked my game as it was. I could, just as easily as today, log in for an hour and have fun. Sure, i might not have leveled, might not have made a crap ton of gold, and probably wouldn't make a significant dent in my ex bar. But those weren't MY goals. My goals were to have some fun, kill some stuff, and catch up with my e-buddies.
But, I'm a bit weird. I didn't mind imbalanced classes, it just mean that I had to work around them. I didn't mind the non-game breaking bugs (like falling through the floor of Camelot and ending up in that fountain). I didn't mind being out numbered in PvP, or out played. And I didn't mind that there were some things I couldn't do unless I had friends to help.
Still don't
*edited because I can't spell "significant"
I don't have to be careful. I already got what i wish for. Diablo 3, WOW, DCUO, Borderlands 2 .... are all very assessible, co-op multiplayer games.
And i am perfectly fine having fun with them.
You never see me bitch and moan about fast grouping ... in fact, i said it many times, the only reason why i went bak to WOW, is because of LFR.
And loot only matters if you have a chance to get it. It does NOT matter to me if one piece takes 10 hours of camping, i just don't have that time.
You kind of proved my point.
As you said, you have exactly what you want, Multiplayer co-op games. That you put WoW, D3 and Borderlands2 in the same category, kind of makes me fear the future of this genre enven more...
While you are perfectly fine with that, a lot of us would love to have some aspects of our classic MMORPGs back. The social and political aspects that we used to see in MMORPGs was an extra layer of depth that many of us loved. It was more than a simple multiplayer co-op experience.
You also said in your previous post :
" I think people just want to play a assessible fun game, and sometimes with no string attached."
I agree, some people probably want that. There are TONS of game that give you that experience.
A lot of us would like something more, though.
/agree.
I would add that the reason I loved the old model was because of the time and commitment it took to reach endgame and get anywhere. You see max leveled toons a month after release in most new MMOs, and that's a problem in my eyes.
In fact the Op has reminded me of how we used to joke about the difficulty in DAOC, you knew it was going to be madness and would have a laugh about it. I won't be replying to ezMMO apologists in this thread, just enjoying the memories.
Originally posted by Wardop And as I admitted, it wasn't a utopian society, but black lists mattered to the majority of the players and guilds I interacted with. The community on the server I played on was smaller, you knew or heard of most of the people online with you. It was hard to be an asshat and get anywhere.
My experience was different, and I never really understood this social factor in MMOs. How was this list passed around? Was it an "in guild" kind of thingy? Not many people even read message boards.
I played EQ for about 3 years. Towards the end, I was in a guild. I don't recall ever seeing a "blacklist" or even hearing players mentioned by name on my server. Do I believe that there was a group of players who did keep track of this kind of stuff? I am sure there were.
After all is said and done, I would wager that less than half of the server's population could name the "biggest guild" on that server. Maybe they could and I am the anomaly. Wouldn't be the first time
I just find it hard to picture that a couple of hundred (imaginary number) players on a server knew everyone else and kept track. I would be most surprised if anyone else knew *my* character's name, outside of the few people I adventured with. I was not an ass-hat. I was not the "super great player." I was a mediocre player enjoying my time on-line.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
another thing that killed communities is the creation of the Auction House. I plan on writing an entire post on it, but before AH's community was much more important
Originally posted by Wardop And as I admitted, it wasn't a utopian society, but black lists mattered to the majority of the players and guilds I interacted with. The community on the server I played on was smaller, you knew or heard of most of the people online with you. It was hard to be an asshat and get anywhere.
My experience was different, and I never really understood this social factor in MMOs. How was this list passed around? Was it an "in guild" kind of thingy? Not many people even read message boards.
I played EQ for about 3 years. Towards the end, I was in a guild. I don't recall ever seeing a "blacklist" or even hearing players mentioned by name on my server. Do I believe that there was a group of players who did keep track of this kind of stuff? I am sure there were.
After all is said and done, I would wager that less than half of the server's population could name the "biggest guild" on that server. Maybe they could and I am the anomaly. Wouldn't be the first time
I just find it hard to picture that a couple of hundred (imaginary number) players on a server knew everyone else and kept track. I would be most surprised if anyone else knew *my* character's name, outside of the few people I adventured with. I was not an ass-hat. I was not the "super great player." I was a mediocre player enjoying my time on-line.
That was my experience as well. IMO reputation just didn't matter to the majority, blacklists were routinely ignored. I woudl bet that only the tiniest percentage of players (in EQ anyway) 1. Ever even saw a blacklist, 2. Cared about the list or what people said in chat at all.
Most people just played in their group for the hour/day and that was it. Yes you did get to know a few people that but more than that? Not really, again except for a tiny few.
Again only a tiny tiny percentage saw any list or cared about reputation, or even knew more than a handfull of people.
We still managed to have a lot of fun though.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
Very good post, Wardop, and I so share your opinion. By the way, DAoC was my first MMORPG as well.
Sadly, this type of community is lost and can only be found in small niche games today. Everything else went mainstream and chased the millions of people buying the games with the built-in I-win-buttons.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I totally agree with OP. I even played ashen empires too hehe
I've always thought of MMO players as masochists. We like to get hurt and die. We like to suffer long grueling hours of mundane crafting. And We absolutely love it when we go through so much to get to a boss, only to get our arses handed to us, and the boss just sits there laughing us taking our dirt naps.
Edit: This is one reason why I like Rift, the raids aren't easy at all, and you go in expecting to die.
I'd say it was your server of choice. Everything the OP said described my EQ server (Ayonae Ro) to a T.
To the OP...although it is laggy, buggy, and older....you should give Vanguard: Saga of Heroes a whirl. It's F2P up to lvl 20. They are fixing it steadily now, and is a LOT like our MMORPG's of old. Been playing for almost a month now (Did the beta) religiously and enjoying it a LOT. Dungeon crawls (Not quite as slow as EQ, etc, but still crawls in comparison to the new stuff) and actually talking to people and making friends again, HUGE world where you walk into a dungeon without a load screen, etc.
One of the reason we've noticed this major change in communities' behaviors over the years (I'm a UO - RO player and I know exactly how you feel) is quite simple to me : Accountabiliy.
Back then, when you invested a bunch of time in your character, you knew deep down that if you ninja looted or decided to be a dumbass 24/7, most relevant guilds on the server would blacklist you and your chances to be 'successful' and have a good time in the game would be heavily hindered.
I think the reasons that tight community aren't a common occurence anymore is quite simple and isn't simply caused by the change of generation. The developpers made decisions that brought this obvious change.
In the early days of WoW, the feeling of being part of a community feeling was VERY present on your server. I clearly remeber (without rose-tinted glasses) that WoW's community was far from what it is today. The server forums for instance were heavily used every single day and assholes would have their wall of fame displayed on it. People were accountable for their action. After putting 300 hours on your character, you wouldn't want to have every major guild blacklisting you if you ever wanted to be part of them.
It changed when developpers started adding features such as :
The developers brought this change because of player demand. And i don't believe people want the "old community" that much. I think people just want to play a assessible fun game, and sometimes with no string attached.
I think this is a case of "be careful what you wish for". I watched the players demand the changes that made leveling faster, grouping unnecessary, loot really matter. Then I watched those self-same players bitch and moan about it.
I liked my game as it was. I could, just as easily as today, log in for an hour and have fun. Sure, i might not have leveled, might not have made a crap ton of gold, and probably wouldn't make a significant dent in my ex bar. But those weren't MY goals. My goals were to have some fun, kill some stuff, and catch up with my e-buddies.
But, I'm a bit weird. I didn't mind imbalanced classes, it just mean that I had to work around them. I didn't mind the non-game breaking bugs (like falling through the floor of Camelot and ending up in that fountain). I didn't mind being out numbered in PvP, or out played. And I didn't mind that there were some things I couldn't do unless I had friends to help.
Still don't
*edited because I can't spell "significant"
Another excellent reply I wholeheartedly agree with.
I agree with all your points here, especially name changes. I remember when your name was set in stone, and people knew who you were even if you left the game for awhile and came back. Now, your name gets wiped after so long of inactivity on a closed account so someone else might be able to get that name. Server changes as well, this is something I think only devs should be able to affect. LFG tools also take away from having to actually converse with people you don't know in order to get something accomplished.
I think making games less group-intensive was the beginning. In my eyes there's never been an MMO experience quite up to par with EQ or FFXI, since they used practically the same mechanics. Sure, it took a long time to get where you wanted to be, and you had to have patience and people skills to a point, but it was FUN.
Just my two cents.
I was on Gawaine/Alb. I got lucky with my epic armor, it was only a few weeks for me after I hit 50. But the months, if not a year, that it took to reach that 50 made that armor mean something to me. Yeah, maybe I attach too much personal value to those hard to get items, but thats what made it worthwile to me.
I wonder if todays gaming community would embrace things like DF now-a-days. Or if they would complain that it was something pve that you had to pvp for. That having it provided an 'unfair' advantage.
Pre-WoW, people trickled into the games. They met some random guy who gave them a bit of gold to help get started, because they were new. They saw some other random person help them with that stupid Magical Bunny of Doom that they just couldn't kill. Some other random guy dropped a drive by buff on them. They got int a leveling group and people talked to them. Basically, they were taught by example that this is how you interact. And one by one, two by two, people learned.
WoW came out, and 150,000 of us who had started out as that new guy, then became the random guy helping out, mixed with 1,000,000 people who had never played a MMO. There weren't enough of us to teach online MMO social interaction 101. Thus a new culture arose, one that placed the emphasis on the individual, not the group. And WoW capitalized on it and nurtured it.
I'm not knocking WoW. I think its a fun game for short periods of time. I simply miss the gaming culture before the change.
I don't have to be careful. I already got what i wish for. Diablo 3, WOW, DCUO, Borderlands 2 .... are all very assessible, co-op multiplayer games.
And i am perfectly fine having fun with them.
You never see me bitch and moan about fast grouping ... in fact, i said it many times, the only reason why i went bak to WOW, is because of LFR.
And loot only matters if you have a chance to get it. It does NOT matter to me if one piece takes 10 hours of camping, i just don't have that time.
While I agree that there were ofcourse many jerks and selfish people back in the old days too, I do have to say communities were tighter.
Reputaion did matter much more than it does nowadays where you never see most of the people you meet ever again.
For one, leveling speed was much slower, so you kept meeting the same people for longer periods. Noone quickly outleveled you and moved on to different zones in a playsession or two.
Server populations were also lower back then. I guess both due to technical reasons and the players being more casual nowadays (can cram more of them onto a server due to less playtime each)
Also, you needed to group for decent progress (especially high levels). If you look at DAoC for instance, there were only a few really good spots in a realm for the last levels. With a bad rep you wouldn't have gotten into those groups.
Also you had tight knit communities in RvR and also some smaller ones in the battlegrounds, where you basically knew every regular player, even in the enemy realms. I actually made some really good friends I still play games with 10 years later after meeting them as enemies first.
Nowadays, with all the instancing and shuffling around, you don't really remember anyone you played with or against in a PvP match. Noone is known or feared, you are an anonymous blip in a mass of anonymous blips. Same for dungeon runs. You get thrown together, you kill stuff without any communication, you never meet each other again.
And I'm glad you enjoy these thing. It's just a difference of opinion and likes.
Oh yeah, there were and will always be jerks and assholes. Back then I had a few guys I absolutely hated, and I'm sure they disliked me just as much. But, it wasn't the norm to be an ass, it wasn't acceptable.
"I actually made some really good friends I still play games with 10 years later after meeting them as enemies first."
You knew you friends and recognized your enemies. A good fight was a reason to be happy, even if you lost, not a reason to asshat the guy next time you killed him. I had a friend who played on another realm, we fought each other in one of the battle grounds, and I won (amazingly enough). After I ashatted him, as a joke, then saluted him. Not 5 minutes had passed before my GM whispered me to chastize me for being disrespectful, and telling me our guild didn't 'asshat'. After I explained that he was a personal friend of mine who I knew was laughing on the other end of the interwebs, it was all good.
But the point is, you didn't act like a jerk, or you got called out for it. No less than 10 people who saw me took the time to look up my guild leader and let him know what I had done. They did it because it mattered.
I want to win but the satisfaction I get from it is lessened if there's no penalty for losing.
Before we had "you can either win or loose". Now it's "you can either win or win less".
Bah.
Very well put.
Good post OP. Made me wave a flag for a moment.
I do hate it when they fix the fun glitches. Falling thru the floors into the fountain was hilarious more an annoying, just so long as you didn't do it repeatedly *wink*. Or the octopus you could pull and it would eat everyone in the entire zone, including you (fun for those of us born with Godzilla envy). My 1st game was FFXI but I played WoW when it first came out as well.
I am like stuck between Conservatives and Liberals with this. I find myself agreeing with both sides. And wonder, is all blame on the developers? Or is it television's influence? People who grew up on Sherlock Homes and John Wayne might have an idea of what "moral" really means. Whereas people who grow up watching Jerry Springer and Freddie Cruger might not be so well informed. Just a thought.
If I have not spelled my point out enough; you are not getting bad players because of game design. You are getting bad players because parents are raising nasty brats. It is easy to raise a nasty brat. Just be a self-centered jerk (religious and pagan alike). It's not everyone of course. Thus there are still good players out there somewhere.
So tell me, OP Wardop, how did your parents raise you?
Edited for spelling errors.
+1 from me, OP. Personally, I miss being blind while meditating. Weird I know, but it was pretty exciting having to listen to your speakers to tell if you were about to get jumped. And no one, NO one, has ever surpassed EQ's implementation of Blind - you couldn't even see your hotkeys, entire screen was black.
We players brought a lot of the changes on ourselves, though. Anyone remember the advent of KEI in EQ? For Non-EQ-ers, it was a massive mana regen spell.
It changed the game significantly. People would run to big towns and sit around in crowds waiting for someone to cast an AE KEI.
You kind of proved my point.
As you said, you have exactly what you want, Multiplayer co-op games. That you put WoW, D3 and Borderlands2 in the same category, kind of makes me fear for the future of this genre...
While you are perfectly fine with that, a lot of us would love to have some aspects of our classic MMORPGs back. The social and political aspects that we used to see in MMORPGs was an extra layer of depth that many of us loved. It was more than a simple multiplayer co-op experience.
You also said in your previous post :
" I think people just want to play a assessible fun game, and sometimes with no string attached."
I agree, some people probably want that. There are TONS of game that give you that experience.
A lot of us would like something more, though.
/agree.
I would add that the reason I loved the old model was because of the time and commitment it took to reach endgame and get anywhere. You see max leveled toons a month after release in most new MMOs, and that's a problem in my eyes.
In fact the Op has reminded me of how we used to joke about the difficulty in DAOC, you knew it was going to be madness and would have a laugh about it. I won't be replying to ezMMO apologists in this thread, just enjoying the memories.
I played EQ for about 3 years. Towards the end, I was in a guild. I don't recall ever seeing a "blacklist" or even hearing players mentioned by name on my server. Do I believe that there was a group of players who did keep track of this kind of stuff? I am sure there were.
After all is said and done, I would wager that less than half of the server's population could name the "biggest guild" on that server. Maybe they could and I am the anomaly. Wouldn't be the first time
I just find it hard to picture that a couple of hundred (imaginary number) players on a server knew everyone else and kept track. I would be most surprised if anyone else knew *my* character's name, outside of the few people I adventured with. I was not an ass-hat. I was not the "super great player." I was a mediocre player enjoying my time on-line.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
another thing that killed communities is the creation of the Auction House. I plan on writing an entire post on it, but before AH's community was much more important
That was my experience as well. IMO reputation just didn't matter to the majority, blacklists were routinely ignored. I woudl bet that only the tiniest percentage of players (in EQ anyway) 1. Ever even saw a blacklist, 2. Cared about the list or what people said in chat at all.
Most people just played in their group for the hour/day and that was it. Yes you did get to know a few people that but more than that? Not really, again except for a tiny few.
Again only a tiny tiny percentage saw any list or cared about reputation, or even knew more than a handfull of people.
We still managed to have a lot of fun though.