Originally posted by Saur0n Blizzard games do well because there are a billion blizzard fanboys. And it's not devs that are the problem. It's the production companies who force the devs to make lame crap that are the problem.
I don't think it's fair to blame the fans or the production companies. WoW did a LOT of things right, and adapted their game to meet rising interest in the MMORPG genre by more casual gamers. This is what really propelled them to the top initially, seeing as they were coming from the EQ days when only "nerds" played MMORPGs. Home PCs were also becoming a lot more common around the same time, which helped their numbers get as high as they did. Not to mention that the computers needed to run WoW weren't exactly top of the line. Add to that the quality of design, art, music, everything that went into the game, and you ended up with a very addictive and user-friendly game that blew up in popularity.
Not to mention the fact that they were in the right position at the right time to make their game when they did, and the only real competition was EQ2 which wasn't nearly as solo-friendly at launch, and EQ1 which was dated and even less solo-friendly than EQ2 was. Warcraft also had a slightly longer history than EQ, from the original Warcraft games, which gave it a large initial player base.
First off I cant say where this thread has gone b/c its 18 pages old by the time Im reading it so excuse me if Ive covered or said something that has already been said(wasnt reading all 18 pages). Also Ive palyed WoW and its not for me and my response is no way to bash Blizzard or WoW.
Is Blizzard that great...hmmm...I think its more them being lucky. They were great at advertising there product which probably led to their success. MOST other devs do not utilize this aspect of releasing MMOs(yes only MMOs b/c PS/XBOX games are advertised ALL the time). Did they create something great? Probably b/c every other dev just constantly releases another WoW colne. I think most devs TRY way to hard to be the ones who take down the GIANT that is Blizzard, by releasing unfinished games, i.e. AoC or just copy Blizzards model and call it there own, i.e. SWTOR, which I have played both games.
I dont think that most devs put in any real time to come up w/ something new and refreshing b/c 1: They are afraid that itll fail b/c its nothing like WoW, and they think thats what players want. 2: They dont listen to what players really want. Think about it, all the games that have come out in the past few years that are different fail b/c they are not finished or they fail b/c they are some clone of WoW and if players wanted that why would they leave WoW, where they have vested time in things, for something new but the same to start over.
I dont see why any dev would pump tons of $$$ into a project to copy it and have it fail. Why not pump tons of $$$ into something new and refeshing and take a shot on it taking off and being successful? As long as its finished and ready for release. At least the later you have a CHANCE of it being the next big thing. I beleive most devs sit in a room and discuss how are we going to take down WoW. To me wrong discussion to be having. How about discussing what can we do that is new and different.
Look the bottom line is that these devs have the capability of being the next WoW, problem is they get to wrapped up in it. Their not dumb they are gamers themselves they know where to take things, at least I hope they do. Stop worrying about WoW, Blizzard, whatever. Your customers, players, and fans are out there maybe its high time you start listening to them, after all WE are what makes YOU successful in the long run. If not I can always wait until your game goes F2P to play it, saves me the $$$...
BTW did not vote b/c the answewr is neither one nor the other.
Neither are to blame. The player base and intelligence (or lack there of) is to blame. You can't blame Blizzard for succeeding when people just keep buying what they're selling... and they seem to like it... just creepy to me theyre all zombies lol
Blizzard had a recipe for success with WoW that was previously unatainable by MMO companies in the past. They had an already huge name in the Warcraft franchise, and an already devoted large player base. UO had the Ultima series, big for its own time but nothing comparable to the following of Warcraft. That is the extent of their advantage, 100%, and they have carried it through ruining multiple games, not to mention the hordes of clones that they influenced, all to the delight of "fans". What that says about consumers of these games, I think, is pretty insulting
Blizzard/WoW is still king because it has stuck to fundamentals that it polished to a blinding shine at launch. Yes, those fundamentals are starting to get old and stale, and we are starting to want more-better-different...but you don't toss out a flawless diamond just because you've had it for 10 years. You run it through a sonic bath every few years and marvel at the shininess.
Every new game that has come along and tried to mimic WoW has failed pretty miserably at being WoW. They don't have the polish, and they usually try to tack on some gimmicky game system that doesn't jibe with the rest of the game or looks great on paper but doesn't stand the test of a million players hammering on it. To answer the poll : Blizzard is good, but the suck coming from the other developers is greater.
The genre is ready for something "new". We are tired of adding new rides to the themepark, as it is basically the same ride with the cars painted a different color. I hope that something "new" is a turn toward more sandbox elements. Keep the themepark stuff as well, but add more content and systems that are player centered rather than developer guided.
I am personally done with graphical DikuMUD clones and will play only sandbox games until the right hybrid comes along that offers the best of both themepark and sandbox play (Pre-NGE SWG was so close!)
I think I may be waiting a while...
"If MMORPG players were around when God said, "Let their be light" they'd have called the light gay, and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it." -Luke McKinney, The 7 Biggest Dick Moves in the History of Online Gaming
"In the end, SWG may have been more potential and promise than fulfilled expectation. But I'd rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity." -Raph Koster
Oh SWTOR Is great, the only problem is most people consumed the content to quickly and returned to WoW!! They had nowhere permanent to go, only temporary homes in SWTOR, RIFT, Tera, and GW2...
By the time SWTOR got some required features to be like WoW, they had already lost players back to WoW...
Pro: More Polish than just about any MMO out there, Ever!
Cons: Never any new content because of the insane amount of content and the same 3 dungeons and 1 raid zone layout had better last you for the next year or two because you won't be seeing any new one any time soon ).
For Example, Sony has so many myraid bugs and glitches that you can find everywhere in Everquest 2, and they can't even ever fix everything that breaks... Yet, they released a cool game update Skyshrine, and they release new world events and pre-expansion events... Blizzard runs the same holiday events over and over, and didn't even release any new revamp to the outdated holiday boss drops... Not having as many bugs and glitches is sweet, but only keeps players for so long when they are bored of the same zones over and over...
We need a new Star Wars Galaxies Sandbox... Please someone bring it back!!! If only SWTOR didn't choose to be a normal theme park, and could have just been a sandbox... Us PVE players want a Sandbox too!! We don't like PVP, we can't play PVP Sandboxes... Not having normal land planets and an Avatar on Eve Online was wierd, and I found SWG to be the best sandbox ever, if it could just be done now, with modern technology and a huge budget, we all still love Star Wars...
Old Blizzard was that good. Most of those people do not work there anymore. THAT studio doesn't exist anymore. They have been replaced by some barely talented and very egotistical people. People who are hell bent on making the game almost play itself for you.
It's a big social network now that is also a game. If WoW shut down today, not all of the players would join another MMO. That doesn't stop other companies from trying to copy and achieve the same product with the same goal. WoW's numbers have steadily declined and will continue to do so until only those who use it as a glorified chat program to communicate with their WoW friends are left.
Just wanted to throw in that there´s still surprisingly many ppl that thinks WoW did start the whole genre and is the only game of its kind. When i mention sites as mmorpg etc they look at me sceptical wondering how there can be such sites when theres only WoW and maybe a few more (according to them).
blizzard hit the time and space where it was right during years people get use ot playing it and anyhting new is scary and different. so mostly players always return their home wich was where they started the whole gaming business.
Doubt if they will sell more expansion copies then for example GW2... we will see.
but that its dated, doesnt matter... its the graphical style that makes people play. Quite alot of people really hate other MMO's for trying to make more realistical graphics.
Let me start by sayin I played WoW for five years, with an embarrassing amout of time /played on just my main not to mention my 8 alts. I stopped playing about a year and a half ago, and have no plans to go back. WoW is dated, and was taken in a direction that I could not agree with. Which brought a level of distrust for Blizzard that hasn't eased yet.
With that said, how is it possible that Blizzard can take this old game with an older engine and probably sell more copies of it's 4th expansion than GW2, SwTOR, TSW and RIFT combined?! What does this say about the rest of the developers out there? How is it that Blizzard can make a game where millions of people play for years and these other developers can't make a game where most people want to play 6 months? To be far I did play RIFT for ten months. I tip my hat to the TRION team, but that's a far cry from years.
So which one is it? Blizzard is that good, or does the rest of the industry suck that bad? It's either more of one or the other.
edit - and an "e" to the "on" in the pole....
Well actually i wouldn't say blizzard is doing well at all. In the sense of how they where doing. everyone knows the vanilla was the best, outlands was the good expansion, everything else after was a shame. i played wow for about 5 years and after realizing i was just doing the same daily quests and shit raids for the past year i concluded how addicted i really was, wow isn't a good game, its a good addiction,
Also i heard a few weeks maybe a few months ago that blizzard was trying to sell there company because how of bad its doing compared to previous progress. Wow used to be the top game, but after the third expansion i think people started to realize that there wasn't really new content.
Also i heard a few weeks maybe a few months ago that blizzard was trying to sell there company because how of bad its doing compared to previous progress. Wow used to be the top game, but after the third expansion i think people started to realize that there wasn't really new content.
Vivendi is the one selling - and wouldnt surprise me if Activision/Blizzard bought the shares
Vanilla ice cream is tasty and it is a pretty safe bet. I don't think I know anyone who hates vanilla ice cream. Lots of people may prefer something else over it but very few actually hate it. And if the only ice cream you have ever tried was vanilla, it would probably be what you asked for if you were given a choice later. Most people are not very adventuresome. They go with what is comfortable.
WoW is vanilla ice cream. It is safe. It is fun. It might not knock your socks off but you know you will more or less enjoy it. Most people don't change their habits. Their friends are in WoW. They have mounts and pets they have collected. They might have a title that can no longer be gotten. They have a lot of time and emotional energy invested in the game. It is the safe bet. It is not hard to play, it is reasonably fun, they don't have to learn how and when to use different skills and they don't have to take the chance that it will flop.
There is a reason that you can find vanilla ice cream at almost any restaurant you stop at.
Personally I like the vanilla with chocolate chips and nuts on it. That's why I still play Rift, vanilla with a little more.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Gw2 is a better game for me. It has more of things I like than wow has.
If I was into raiding I would like wow, but I'm not.
Fair enough.
Although I think GW2 is highly overrated. In the end it is the same boring theme park MMO as WoW. The highly dynamic events aren't that dynamic. In fact I feel a higher sense of immersion in Rift then in GW2.
Well if your deciding factor on which developer is good or bad is based on how many boxes it sells. Then yea Blizzard is pretty much the best there is right now.
Which also means that CoD developer is the best online game develoepr ever.
Take it for what its worth, GW2 is the first MMO game that I have played every single day since its released. Rift was like 4 days before a weeks break, SWTOR 6 days. NEver tried AION or WoW at its release, only trials, which I never subbed for them.
From what I understand, MMORPG has the same model since 2004, except for GW2, which still isn't that much different.
Imagine every smartphone and their respective OS stayed the same since 2007, smartphone wouldn't have been as popular as it is now.
The only way MMO is ever going to be actually widely accepted as a great genre is when they break down the walls which refrains developers from doing the same thing over and over again, question themselves, and decide what makes a game good, and what makes a game great. They are game develoeprs, not MMO developers.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
1) Blizzard is very good at taking the best of what other games have done, and reskinning it with more polish. They also have the resources to do this on a scale larger than most companies are capable of.
2) Most gamers (and it sounds like the OP is part of this group), just aren't willing to support newer games / newer ideas. I hate to say it, but you're part of the problem.
Blizzard didn't make a game like WoW out of the gate because they are just good. It took them years and years of build up, and a loyal following to get to that point. All of the games that we have grown to love are rooted in small beginnings. That has never changed. What has changed is the number of people that now expect newer studios to be able to launch with the same production quality as a multi 100 million $ studio.
New games need time to grow, evolve, and add in the amount of polish many gamers now expect. Blizzard is simply the 'safe' option when it comes to online games. They are the litmus test of gaming. They don't necessarily make better games, but they know how to sell to their fanbase (which is massive).
You know, everyone talks WoW. But Blizzard is not only WoW.
Diablo 1 and Diablo 2 were blockbusters and Diablo 2 is played to these days... Diablo 3... meh.
Another product. Starcraft... Starcraft/Broodwars was played as eSport till Starcraft 2 came out... and now probably both do play. Do you know any RTS so hugely successful?
To make it short, Blizzard is really good. Or rather I should say Blizzard WAS really good. These days? I don't know anymore. It feels more like glacier moving forward slowly but surely and there is nothing stopping it.
As for why, answer is simple: polish. Blizzard games are really polished, responsive, acessible and fairly easy to learn. Blizzard does very good at category called "playability". Their games are not looking fantastic, don't sound nicely, but they play really well and smooth. Never in my WoW times I said "I just died becuase stupid camera angle or my controlls responded slowly/got stuck".
The old wow developer team that made vanilla wow yes.They were smart enough to do what what had to be done to bring wow on the top.
And yes the rest of developers are that bad to phail copy/paste and improve wow to the next lvl.Not only they didnt make something new but they made bad wow copies.
Comments
I don't think it's fair to blame the fans or the production companies. WoW did a LOT of things right, and adapted their game to meet rising interest in the MMORPG genre by more casual gamers. This is what really propelled them to the top initially, seeing as they were coming from the EQ days when only "nerds" played MMORPGs. Home PCs were also becoming a lot more common around the same time, which helped their numbers get as high as they did. Not to mention that the computers needed to run WoW weren't exactly top of the line. Add to that the quality of design, art, music, everything that went into the game, and you ended up with a very addictive and user-friendly game that blew up in popularity.
Not to mention the fact that they were in the right position at the right time to make their game when they did, and the only real competition was EQ2 which wasn't nearly as solo-friendly at launch, and EQ1 which was dated and even less solo-friendly than EQ2 was. Warcraft also had a slightly longer history than EQ, from the original Warcraft games, which gave it a large initial player base.
First off I cant say where this thread has gone b/c its 18 pages old by the time Im reading it so excuse me if Ive covered or said something that has already been said(wasnt reading all 18 pages). Also Ive palyed WoW and its not for me and my response is no way to bash Blizzard or WoW.
Is Blizzard that great...hmmm...I think its more them being lucky. They were great at advertising there product which probably led to their success. MOST other devs do not utilize this aspect of releasing MMOs(yes only MMOs b/c PS/XBOX games are advertised ALL the time). Did they create something great? Probably b/c every other dev just constantly releases another WoW colne. I think most devs TRY way to hard to be the ones who take down the GIANT that is Blizzard, by releasing unfinished games, i.e. AoC or just copy Blizzards model and call it there own, i.e. SWTOR, which I have played both games.
I dont think that most devs put in any real time to come up w/ something new and refreshing b/c 1: They are afraid that itll fail b/c its nothing like WoW, and they think thats what players want. 2: They dont listen to what players really want. Think about it, all the games that have come out in the past few years that are different fail b/c they are not finished or they fail b/c they are some clone of WoW and if players wanted that why would they leave WoW, where they have vested time in things, for something new but the same to start over.
I dont see why any dev would pump tons of $$$ into a project to copy it and have it fail. Why not pump tons of $$$ into something new and refeshing and take a shot on it taking off and being successful? As long as its finished and ready for release. At least the later you have a CHANCE of it being the next big thing. I beleive most devs sit in a room and discuss how are we going to take down WoW. To me wrong discussion to be having. How about discussing what can we do that is new and different.
Look the bottom line is that these devs have the capability of being the next WoW, problem is they get to wrapped up in it. Their not dumb they are gamers themselves they know where to take things, at least I hope they do. Stop worrying about WoW, Blizzard, whatever. Your customers, players, and fans are out there maybe its high time you start listening to them, after all WE are what makes YOU successful in the long run. If not I can always wait until your game goes F2P to play it, saves me the $$$...
BTW did not vote b/c the answewr is neither one nor the other.
Neither are to blame. The player base and intelligence (or lack there of) is to blame. You can't blame Blizzard for succeeding when people just keep buying what they're selling... and they seem to like it... just creepy to me theyre all zombies lol
Blizzard had a recipe for success with WoW that was previously unatainable by MMO companies in the past. They had an already huge name in the Warcraft franchise, and an already devoted large player base. UO had the Ultima series, big for its own time but nothing comparable to the following of Warcraft. That is the extent of their advantage, 100%, and they have carried it through ruining multiple games, not to mention the hordes of clones that they influenced, all to the delight of "fans". What that says about consumers of these games, I think, is pretty insulting
I played WoW for a long time and enjoyed it. But then, I enjoy most of the mmo's I've played.
It's well written. There's tons on content. A bit of everything and I think it always helps to have servers full of people.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Blizzard/WoW is still king because it has stuck to fundamentals that it polished to a blinding shine at launch. Yes, those fundamentals are starting to get old and stale, and we are starting to want more-better-different...but you don't toss out a flawless diamond just because you've had it for 10 years. You run it through a sonic bath every few years and marvel at the shininess.
Every new game that has come along and tried to mimic WoW has failed pretty miserably at being WoW. They don't have the polish, and they usually try to tack on some gimmicky game system that doesn't jibe with the rest of the game or looks great on paper but doesn't stand the test of a million players hammering on it. To answer the poll : Blizzard is good, but the suck coming from the other developers is greater.
The genre is ready for something "new". We are tired of adding new rides to the themepark, as it is basically the same ride with the cars painted a different color. I hope that something "new" is a turn toward more sandbox elements. Keep the themepark stuff as well, but add more content and systems that are player centered rather than developer guided.
I am personally done with graphical DikuMUD clones and will play only sandbox games until the right hybrid comes along that offers the best of both themepark and sandbox play (Pre-NGE SWG was so close!)
I think I may be waiting a while...
"If MMORPG players were around when God said, "Let their be light" they'd have called the light gay, and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it."
-Luke McKinney, The 7 Biggest Dick Moves in the History of Online Gaming
"In the end, SWG may have been more potential and promise than fulfilled expectation. But I'd rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
-Raph Koster
Oh SWTOR Is great, the only problem is most people consumed the content to quickly and returned to WoW!! They had nowhere permanent to go, only temporary homes in SWTOR, RIFT, Tera, and GW2...
By the time SWTOR got some required features to be like WoW, they had already lost players back to WoW...
The Pros and Cons of Blizzard!!
Pro: More Polish than just about any MMO out there, Ever!
Cons: Never any new content because of the insane amount of content and the same 3 dungeons and 1 raid zone layout had better last you for the next year or two because you won't be seeing any new one any time soon ).
For Example, Sony has so many myraid bugs and glitches that you can find everywhere in Everquest 2, and they can't even ever fix everything that breaks... Yet, they released a cool game update Skyshrine, and they release new world events and pre-expansion events... Blizzard runs the same holiday events over and over, and didn't even release any new revamp to the outdated holiday boss drops... Not having as many bugs and glitches is sweet, but only keeps players for so long when they are bored of the same zones over and over...
Old Blizzard was that good. Most of those people do not work there anymore. THAT studio doesn't exist anymore. They have been replaced by some barely talented and very egotistical people. People who are hell bent on making the game almost play itself for you.
It's a big social network now that is also a game. If WoW shut down today, not all of the players would join another MMO. That doesn't stop other companies from trying to copy and achieve the same product with the same goal. WoW's numbers have steadily declined and will continue to do so until only those who use it as a glorified chat program to communicate with their WoW friends are left.
Doubt if they will sell more expansion copies then for example GW2... we will see.
but that its dated, doesnt matter... its the graphical style that makes people play. Quite alot of people really hate other MMO's for trying to make more realistical graphics.
https://ashesofcreation.com/r/Y4U3PQCASUPJ5SED
Well actually i wouldn't say blizzard is doing well at all. In the sense of how they where doing. everyone knows the vanilla was the best, outlands was the good expansion, everything else after was a shame. i played wow for about 5 years and after realizing i was just doing the same daily quests and shit raids for the past year i concluded how addicted i really was, wow isn't a good game, its a good addiction,
Also i heard a few weeks maybe a few months ago that blizzard was trying to sell there company because how of bad its doing compared to previous progress. Wow used to be the top game, but after the third expansion i think people started to realize that there wasn't really new content.
Vivendi is the one selling - and wouldnt surprise me if Activision/Blizzard bought the shares
Activision Could Buy Itself Back from Vivendi
http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/07/18/activision-could-buy-itself-back-from-vivendi
EQ2 fan sites
Nice comparison.
A medieval sandbox MMO
http://www.facebook.com/albiononline/
If I was into raiding I would like wow, but I'm not.
Fair enough.
Although I think GW2 is highly overrated. In the end it is the same boring theme park MMO as WoW. The highly dynamic events aren't that dynamic. In fact I feel a higher sense of immersion in Rift then in GW2.
A medieval sandbox MMO
http://www.facebook.com/albiononline/
Well if your deciding factor on which developer is good or bad is based on how many boxes it sells. Then yea Blizzard is pretty much the best there is right now.
Which also means that CoD developer is the best online game develoepr ever.
Take it for what its worth, GW2 is the first MMO game that I have played every single day since its released. Rift was like 4 days before a weeks break, SWTOR 6 days. NEver tried AION or WoW at its release, only trials, which I never subbed for them.
From what I understand, MMORPG has the same model since 2004, except for GW2, which still isn't that much different.
Imagine every smartphone and their respective OS stayed the same since 2007, smartphone wouldn't have been as popular as it is now.
The only way MMO is ever going to be actually widely accepted as a great genre is when they break down the walls which refrains developers from doing the same thing over and over again, question themselves, and decide what makes a game good, and what makes a game great. They are game develoeprs, not MMO developers.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
It's a combination of 2 things.
1) Blizzard is very good at taking the best of what other games have done, and reskinning it with more polish. They also have the resources to do this on a scale larger than most companies are capable of.
2) Most gamers (and it sounds like the OP is part of this group), just aren't willing to support newer games / newer ideas. I hate to say it, but you're part of the problem.
Blizzard didn't make a game like WoW out of the gate because they are just good. It took them years and years of build up, and a loyal following to get to that point. All of the games that we have grown to love are rooted in small beginnings. That has never changed. What has changed is the number of people that now expect newer studios to be able to launch with the same production quality as a multi 100 million $ studio.
New games need time to grow, evolve, and add in the amount of polish many gamers now expect. Blizzard is simply the 'safe' option when it comes to online games. They are the litmus test of gaming. They don't necessarily make better games, but they know how to sell to their fanbase (which is massive).
You know, everyone talks WoW. But Blizzard is not only WoW.
Diablo 1 and Diablo 2 were blockbusters and Diablo 2 is played to these days... Diablo 3... meh.
Another product. Starcraft... Starcraft/Broodwars was played as eSport till Starcraft 2 came out... and now probably both do play. Do you know any RTS so hugely successful?
To make it short, Blizzard is really good. Or rather I should say Blizzard WAS really good. These days? I don't know anymore. It feels more like glacier moving forward slowly but surely and there is nothing stopping it.
As for why, answer is simple: polish. Blizzard games are really polished, responsive, acessible and fairly easy to learn. Blizzard does very good at category called "playability". Their games are not looking fantastic, don't sound nicely, but they play really well and smooth. Never in my WoW times I said "I just died becuase stupid camera angle or my controlls responded slowly/got stuck".
The old wow developer team that made vanilla wow yes.They were smart enough to do what what had to be done to bring wow on the top.
And yes the rest of developers are that bad to phail copy/paste and improve wow to the next lvl.Not only they didnt make something new but they made bad wow copies.
Is this an Everquest 1 redux thread with Warcraft in the Title?
When WoW was first on the horizon... everrrybody at that time was saying the same crap about Immortal EQ Behemoth.
Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice.