Originally posted by ShakyMo Skill based - you can have that in a themepark e.g. tsw Open non instanced at all world - you can have that in a themepark e.g. daoc Random loot, oh tsw again No clasees, several themeparks, incld tsw again Crafting that is meaningful - daoc, gw2 Stealth, what that got to do with it, eve has stealth are you saying eve isn't a sandbox because it has stealth?
Quest arcs - ac has them. Are they sandbox? Is the content player driven? Can you build empires, make towns and forts? if your not on darktide is your content other players or is it a bunch of mobs?
mind I've seen worse I've seen people calling everquest if all games a sandbox on other threads.
Meaningful crafting in GW2, really?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Theres plenty of skill in MMOs, but a different type of skill than say in an FPS. In an FPS its about speed & accuracy as well as being able to predict enemy movements. In an MMO its more knowing all of the classes well enough to maximize the effectiveness of your own skills vs them, as well as knowing your own limitations and when to use certain skills at crucial moments rather than just spamming them every time they come off of CD. Many times it comes down to who is better at utilizing CC.
You mention same builds, gear, etc as if that never happens, but it happens constantly, especially in games where there isnt much customization to your class r classes full of known cookie cutter builds that the majority of people run with. What happens when 2 people int he same end game gear and same build fight eachother? The better player wins.
This is something i've been needing to post ever since GW2 releases. I'm going to show you why the entire argument of being rewarded for "skill" is a total load of crap in MMO's.
First and foremost. I do understand the desire to remove the "gear" variable from the equation. The problem is all these people act like thats the only variable and that as long as everyone is on level playing ground as far as gear goes, then all of sudden it makes for this super skill based competitive environment.
Here is why thats a load of shit:
1. All classes are not created equal and class balance is a myth.
2. You almost never encounter 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, etc, situations in RvR or Instanced Battleground style PVP.
3. People who complain about gear in game, are the same people who will buy G15 keyboard and program the living hell out of it so they can do 1 button press combos and things that are not normally intended by the game.
Elaborations:
1. The only time you can make a claim that you beat someone on pure skill is if you happened to encounter someone who has equal gear, levels, and is the same class, with the exact same build as you. This literally almost never happens. If you do get the rare 1v1 scenario is almost always a different class, and the way MMO's are always set up are with a quasi rock paper scissors method. Certain classes are always better against others. For example, in vanilla wow, a good warlock will almost always get handled by even a mediocre rogue. Thats just an example off the top of my head. But it holds true in every MMO that has PVP.
2. This somewhat ties into point 1, but you rarely encounter where you and your 2 buddies come around a corner and encounter 3 people. Which again, theoretically for it to be fair they would have to have the same group makeup as yours too. SO, usually its either 2v3 or 3v4, 5v2 etc.
3. The point here is basically people are full of shit. They say they want to have a level playing ground, but what they really mean is they want to make sure they have the advantage and not the other guy. And since they may not be able to invest the time or effort to get the better PVP gear, they want to make sure that other people can't as well, so the advantage shifts in their favor.
In conclusion:
Skill based PVP in an MMO or an MMO style game is a MYTH, period, end of conversation. There are simply too many uncontrolled variables for it ever to be a truly competitive environment. If what you truly seek is skill based PVP, go play something counterstrike where more variables are controlled.
I dont think anyone expects all the variables to be equal. They do expect to have a half decent chance to win if they play well though. I dont think thats unreasonable at all. The thing about pvp is that someone has to lose. Players need to thicken up their skins. I reccomend for you all to go work construction for a few months to achieve this.
You will probabally still lose to some guy who has invested 10000 hours to perfect his character and technique, but it wont bother you nearly as much.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Skill based - you can have that in a themepark e.g. tsw Open non instanced at all world - you can have that in a themepark e.g. daoc Random loot, oh tsw again No clasees, several themeparks, incld tsw again Crafting that is meaningful - daoc, gw2 Stealth, what that got to do with it, eve has stealth are you saying eve isn't a sandbox because it has stealth?
Quest arcs - ac has them. Are they sandbox? Is the content player driven? Can you build empires, make towns and forts? if your not on darktide is your content other players or is it a bunch of mobs?
mind I've seen worse I've seen people calling everquest if all games a sandbox on other threads.
TSW is mash builders then hit finisher - what skill does that take? To me, after playing TSW in beta and starting month - takes no skill at all.
This is something i've been needing to post ever since GW2 releases. I'm going to show you why the entire argument of being rewarded for "skill" is a total load of crap in MMO's.
First and foremost. I do understand the desire to remove the "gear" variable from the equation. The problem is all these people act like thats the only variable and that as long as everyone is on level playing ground as far as gear goes, then all of sudden it makes for this super skill based competitive environment.
Here is why thats a load of shit:
1. All classes are not created equal and class balance is a myth.
No - in some games each class has it's strengths and weaknesses. That is the key - exploit the weakness of the class you are fighting.
2. You almost never encounter 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, etc, situations in RvR or Instanced Battleground style PVP.
3. People who complain about gear in game, are the same people who will buy G15 keyboard and program the living hell out of it so they can do 1 button press combos and things that are not normally intended by the game.
IF they feel the need - what is wrong with it - Rift had macros and actually had programming for it built into the game.
Elaborations:
1. The only time you can make a claim that you beat someone on pure skill is if you happened to encounter someone who has equal gear, levels, and is the same class, with the exact same build as you. This literally almost never happens. If you do get the rare 1v1 scenario is almost always a different class, and the way MMO's are always set up are with a quasi rock paper scissors method. Certain classes are always better against others. For example, in vanilla wow, a good warlock will almost always get handled by even a mediocre rogue. Thats just an example off the top of my head. But it holds true in every MMO that has PVP.
2. This somewhat ties into point 1, but you rarely encounter where you and your 2 buddies come around a corner and encounter 3 people. Which again, theoretically for it to be fair they would have to have the same group makeup as yours too. SO, usually its either 2v3 or 3v4, 5v2 etc.
3. The point here is basically people are full of shit. They say they want to have a level playing ground, but what they really mean is they want to make sure they have the advantage and not the other guy. And since they may not be able to invest the time or effort to get the better PVP gear, they want to make sure that other people can't as well, so the advantage shifts in their favor.
In conclusion:
Skill based PVP in an MMO or an MMO style game is a MYTH, period, end of conversation. There are simply too many uncontrolled variables for it ever to be a truly competitive environment. If what you truly seek is skill based PVP, go play something counterstrike where more variables are controlled.
It isn't a myth - it is just you elaborated situations that can happen - doesn't mean the game is NOT skill based - that is bad luck.
Everyone want an advantage - that is human nature. So what? The point of all things being equal (in the game design) means you need to understand your class you are playing. If you don't, you will get killed.
All your points can be explained away, logically by other arguments - I have just posted a few as an example.
Your arguments do not change the idea of a skill based game.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Skill based - you can have that in a themepark e.g. tsw Open non instanced at all world - you can have that in a themepark e.g. daoc Random loot, oh tsw again No clasees, several themeparks, incld tsw again Crafting that is meaningful - daoc, gw2 Stealth, what that got to do with it, eve has stealth are you saying eve isn't a sandbox because it has stealth?
Quest arcs - ac has them. Are they sandbox? Is the content player driven? Can you build empires, make towns and forts? if your not on darktide is your content other players or is it a bunch of mobs?
mind I've seen worse I've seen people calling everquest if all games a sandbox on other threads.
Originally posted by Hrimnir I refuse to believe that my post was so full of win that nobody deigned to respond. No trolls, flames, nothing? something is off here.
Well i am an advocate against pvp in rpg...period let alone the equality or skill argument.
What i see 99% of the time in pvp is players standing right out in the open spamming each other and strafing around and around.
Play UT or Quake,players don't stand in the open,they shoot and duck behind cover or keep changing weapons to fit the need.
Skill is a funny/od term in a way that does NOT mean BEST.I can use a perfect example from being in Hockey tournaments.I would watch the warm ups and the otehr team was like omg these guys look good,tons of skill.Then the game starts and we blow them off the ice,not with skill but other factors like SMARTS and toughness and predictability.
The same thing goes for gaming,you might be a MUCH better aim with a sniper rifle,but i might be a smarter player.Example your sniper would not be much good ,if i didn't stand out in the open to make it useful.If i stay behind cover,it forces you out to use a different weapon.Or i might circle around and flank you or sneak up behind.
PVP has always been a cheap afterthoguht for rpg games and it looks to remain that way.Perhaps part of the problem is that FPS maps are for the most part hand designed,mapping in rpg's has usually a lot of auto generated terrain.
If you have ever watched a skill video from some fps games,your jaw would drop,you just won't see tha tsame type of skill in RPG's.
SKILL UT stylepro Quake Rpg's cannot come close to replicating this type of skill and action.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You scrubs don't know what skill in an MMO is until you have played Darkfall, you need skill there, because if you don't I kill you, and take all your gear =]
Originally posted by Spool1 You scrubs don't know what skill in an MMO is until you have played Darkfall, you need skill there, because if you don't I kill you, and take all your gear =]
Thanks for the heads up..hmm pay $15/month to get prison raped for 30 days...pass
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
The "ac is a sandbox" guy said one of the reasons being was it had meaningful crafting, in that grafted gear was as good as or better than dungeon gear, pvp gear etc..
In that CONTEXT gw2 has meaningful crafting.
Something wow like doesn't (as raid gear is nearly always the best)
This is something i've been needing to post ever since GW2 releases. I'm going to show you why the entire argument of being rewarded for "skill" is a total load of crap in MMO's.
First and foremost. I do understand the desire to remove the "gear" variable from the equation. The problem is all these people act like thats the only variable and that as long as everyone is on level playing ground as far as gear goes, then all of sudden it makes for this super skill based competitive environment.
Here is why thats a load of shit:
1. All classes are not created equal and class balance is a myth.
2. You almost never encounter 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, etc, situations in RvR or Instanced Battleground style PVP.
3. People who complain about gear in game, are the same people who will buy G15 keyboard and program the living hell out of it so they can do 1 button press combos and things that are not normally intended by the game.
Elaborations:
1. The only time you can make a claim that you beat someone on pure skill is if you happened to encounter someone who has equal gear, levels, and is the same class, with the exact same build as you. This literally almost never happens. If you do get the rare 1v1 scenario is almost always a different class, and the way MMO's are always set up are with a quasi rock paper scissors method. Certain classes are always better against others. For example, in vanilla wow, a good warlock will almost always get handled by even a mediocre rogue. Thats just an example off the top of my head. But it holds true in every MMO that has PVP.
2. This somewhat ties into point 1, but you rarely encounter where you and your 2 buddies come around a corner and encounter 3 people. Which again, theoretically for it to be fair they would have to have the same group makeup as yours too. SO, usually its either 2v3 or 3v4, 5v2 etc.
3. The point here is basically people are full of shit. They say they want to have a level playing ground, but what they really mean is they want to make sure they have the advantage and not the other guy. And since they may not be able to invest the time or effort to get the better PVP gear, they want to make sure that other people can't as well, so the advantage shifts in their favor.
In conclusion:
Skill based PVP in an MMO or an MMO style game is a MYTH, period, end of conversation. There are simply too many uncontrolled variables for it ever to be a truly competitive environment. If what you truly seek is skill based PVP, go play something counterstrike where more variables are controlled.
QFE
My best friend is a hardcore GW2 fanatic, and he was making the same arguments most were making on here that ironically smells of Apple Hipsterism. Of those being skill based pvp, gear "doesn't matter", no "end-game", no "trinity", etc etc.
Guess what......
+Gear "matters" in WvW & PvE.
+"Skill" based PvP is a myth in GW2 as there are a few classes that are completely broken in terms of balance compared to others (Warrior vs Necromancer for instance).
+There is an "End Game" for GW2, and that is karma grinding once you hit 80 for the cosmetic looks you want. Then you can pick and choose some other dead-end task to do until that is "completed". Rinse, repeat.....
+Trinity in GW2 definitely exists, but instead of "Tank" / "Dps" / "Healer" it is "DPS", "Control", or "Support".
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
OK, one of the biggest complaints by those who are for the GW2 system is that players with gear ROFOLSTOMP players without and that's it's ONLY due to gear.
LMFAO
In WoW, the best PVPers all have the same gear. The reason they all have the same gear is because they PVP. THey then PVP, after they are done PVPing, the go ahead and they PVP. Of course, they natrually well continue to PVP and PVP some more etc etc. Now, you don't suppose in all this PVP that they've done, they wouldn't have gained a little skill would you?
Now along come Joe Cazsh. He dabbles a little here and there He's done nothing impressive has a few macro'd abilities has som OK PVE gear and goed intto the BGs and becomes someone's wife.
WHAAAA! I can't PVP against them, they haz gearz!
Please! Show me a WoW player without gear complaining about being beaten by someone with gear and I'll show you someone who is just plain bad at PVP.
Guess what? If you didn't grind out hrs and hrs in PVP in WoW, I don't think you will do it in GW2 either. And those who did grind hrs and hrs in PVP in WoW now play GW2, Will. It will be the exact same people who got owned in WoW getting owned by the exact same people in GW2.
Originally posted by HrimnirI refuse to believe that my post was so full of win that nobody deigned to respond. No trolls, flames, nothing? something is off here.
Well i am an advocate against pvp in rpg...period let alone the equality or skill argument.
What i see 99% of the time in pvp is players standing right out in the open spamming each other and strafing around and around.
Play UT or Quake,players don't stand in the open,they shoot and duck behind cover or keep changing weapons to fit the need.
Skill is a funny/od term in a way that does NOT mean BEST.I can use a perfect example from being in Hockey tournaments.I would watch the warm ups and the otehr team was like omg these guys look good,tons of skill.Then the game starts and we blow them off the ice,not with skill but other factors like SMARTS and toughness and predictability.
The same thing goes for gaming,you might be a MUCH better aim with a sniper rifle,but i might be a smarter player.Example your sniper would not be much good ,if i didn't stand out in the open to make it useful.If i stay behind cover,it forces you out to use a different weapon.Or i might circle around and flank you or sneak up behind.
PVP has always been a cheap afterthoguht for rpg games and it looks to remain that way.Perhaps part of the problem is that FPS maps are for the most part hand designed,mapping in rpg's has usually a lot of auto generated terrain.
If you have ever watched a skill video from some fps games,your jaw would drop,you just won't see tha tsame type of skill in RPG's.
SKILL UT stylepro Quake Rpg's cannot come close to replicating this type of skill and action.
I was going to mention UT in a post, but then decided I needed to wait a bit before bringing it up. I was going to mention it because you literally had no choice but to improve your skill...or hack the game. Those were your choices for being good. You couldn't increase the power level of your character relative to anyone else.
The only thing comparable in the MMORPG world are tiered PvP tournaments where players all have the same gear. Outside of that, the set of skills needed to be "good" mostly involves dedication and the ability to keep doing the same thing, over and over again. Picking the right build makes a difference, but mostly it's just the time it takes to end up at the same plateau as the 'best' players.
That doesn't mean I don't think there is skill involved in playing MMORPG...just that the term as it is usually used doesn't really fit.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You know its hilarious because you can very easily tell who simply read the title and responded, and who actually read the post.
The post was not that some level of skill doesnt exist in MMO's, the post was detailing why being rewarded for skill in mmo's is almost impossible because the scenario almost never occurs where you are fairly competing against the other party.
Let me give you an example.
MMA fighting.
Do you think Shane Carwin would be happy that he beat a middleweight guy in a fight? No, because he knows it wasnt an equal playing ground, he would rather compete with people in his own weight class. Do you think he would be happy beating some amateur who is in his weight class (think, equal gear), but the guy has 2 fights under his belt in a local amateur league? No, there was no contest there.
Now, is eliminating gear making that the same thing in an MMO? My argument is NO, not even close.
The point is in an MMO there are way too many unctrolled variables to where you rarely get situations that you *should* feel proud of for winning. About the only time i can think of that would happen with a reasonable frequency would be if you and some buddies encounter a larger team of players and win. Then at least you were outnumbered so that can trump all the other stupid stuff in MMOs like the rock/paper/scissors mentality of class balance, or FOTM builds/classes that are clearly OP, etc.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
You know its hilarious because you can very easily tell who simply read the title and responded, and who actually read the post.
The post was not that some level of skill doesnt exist in MMO's, the post was detailing why being rewarded for skill in mmo's is almost impossible because the scenario almost never occurs where you are fairly competing against the other party.
Let me give you an example.
MMA fighting.
Do you think Shane Carwin would be happy that he beat a middleweight guy in a fight? No, because he knows it wasnt an equal playing ground, he would rather compete with people in his own weight class. Do you think he would be happy beating some amateur who is in his weight class (think, equal gear), but the guy has 2 fights under his belt in a local amateur league? No, there was no contest there.
Now, is eliminating gear making that the same thing in an MMO? My argument is NO, not even close.
The point is in an MMO there are way too many unctrolled variables to where you rarely get situations that you *should* feel proud of for winning. About the only time i can think of that would happen with a reasonable frequency would be if you and some buddies encounter a larger team of players and win. Then at least you were outnumbered so that can trump all the other stupid stuff in MMOs like the rock/paper/scissors mentality of class balance, or FOTM builds/classes that are clearly OP, etc.
Win vs lose.... the point of skill is to be good enough that you beat someone regardless of circumstance. We don't cheer when we beat people weaker than us (unless you're a DF player) we cheer when we beat someone who is stronger.
I've beaten an 80 warrior as a 50 necro in GW2. I cheered.
PS - formulate your OP better and maybe people will have a rough clue what your real argument is.
You know its hilarious because you can very easily tell who simply read the title and responded, and who actually read the post.
The post was not that some level of skill doesnt exist in MMO's, the post was detailing why being rewarded for skill in mmo's is almost impossible because the scenario almost never occurs where you are fairly competing against the other party.
Let me give you an example.
MMA fighting.
Do you think Shane Carwin would be happy that he beat a middleweight guy in a fight? No, because he knows it wasnt an equal playing ground, he would rather compete with people in his own weight class. Do you think he would be happy beating some amateur who is in his weight class (think, equal gear), but the guy has 2 fights under his belt in a local amateur league? No, there was no contest there.
Now, is eliminating gear making that the same thing in an MMO? My argument is NO, not even close.
The point is in an MMO there are way too many unctrolled variables to where you rarely get situations that you *should* feel proud of for winning. About the only time i can think of that would happen with a reasonable frequency would be if you and some buddies encounter a larger team of players and win. Then at least you were outnumbered so that can trump all the other stupid stuff in MMOs like the rock/paper/scissors mentality of class balance, or FOTM builds/classes that are clearly OP, etc.
Win vs lose.... the point of skill is to be good enough that you beat someone regardless of circumstance. We don't cheer when we beat people weaker than us (unless you're a DF player) we cheer when we beat someone who is stronger.
I've beaten an 80 warrior as a 50 necro in GW2. I cheered.
PS - formulate your OP better and maybe people will have a rough clue what your real argument is.
Worst warrior ever considering a properly built Warrior can hit 108% crit chance with +63% to crit damage.
My warrior merely takes key spamming of attack skills to melt any necromancer i've ever come across within seconds.
Necromancer is currently the MOST underpowered class ever in GW2 currently, and Warrior is the easiest & most powerful both in PVP & PvE
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Actually the combination of a warrior AND a necromancer is the most powerful. The warrior having a ton of combo finishers, but only one starter that requires both a bow and adrenaline, the necro bring the other way lots of openers, only a few finishers.
One on one mesmer is tops in the hands if a good player.
Not that gw2 is a 1 vs 1 game anyway. Spvp is all about cross class combos.
Personally I think it's totally fair for a poor skilled player to benefit with the advantage of hard-earned gear. Where I see the problem with some games recently though is where there is pvp gear and pve gear (e.g. Rift) that is earned by performing in pvp and pve. Those who spend all their time doing pvp also will have the best pvp gear. I think this is a mistake. Rare and expensive gear, e.g. raid loot should be the best gear in both pve and pvp. This rewards players who have put effort in the REAL part of the game (pve) and gives them extra protection in pvp situations against those who mostly play and are highly skilled in pvp.
Players who are fully geared and skilled in pvp as a result in balanced efforts in both elements of gameplay are, and should be, the player "bosses" of RPG games.
I would add that it would nice if pvp minigames used matchmaking that tries to balance the skills (win/loss ratio) and gear for each side so the minigames would always be challenging for both sides.
Personally I think it's totally fair for a poor skilled player to benefit with the advantage of hard-earned gear. Where I see the problem with some games recently though is where there is pvp gear and pve gear (e.g. Rift) that is earned by performing in pvp and pve. Those who spend all their time doing pvp also will have the best pvp gear. I think this is a mistake. Rare and expensive gear, e.g. raid loot should be the best gear in both pve and pvp. This rewards players who have put effort in the REAL part of the game (pve) and gives them extra protection in pvp situations against those who mostly play and are highly skilled in pvp.
Players who are fully geared and skilled in pvp as a result in balanced efforts in both elements of gameplay are, and should be, the player "bosses" of RPG games.
I would add that it would nice if pvp minigames used matchmaking that tries to balance the skills (win/loss ratio) and gear for each side so the minigames would always be challenging for both sides.
Oh man, dude i hope you have like a +6 against trolls Class VIIA Flame Retardent suit on, cus you're about to get nuclear levels of fire come down upon you
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Originally posted by Hrimnir I refuse to believe that my post was so full of win that nobody deigned to respond. No trolls, flames, nothing? something is off here.
I'm kind of surprised folks did respond. Your post may as well have listed three factors that separate an orange from an apple and that is why an orange is not an apple. Not so much a case that it was "full of win" - but that it is obvious. Yet, obviously as well, that didn't stop folks from trying to argue an apple is an orange, eh? Meh...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Originally posted by GeezerGamer Arguing over which MMO requires more skills is like trying to argue that a tricycle is harder to ride than a Big Wheel.
Comments
Meaningful crafting in GW2, really?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Theres plenty of skill in MMOs, but a different type of skill than say in an FPS. In an FPS its about speed & accuracy as well as being able to predict enemy movements. In an MMO its more knowing all of the classes well enough to maximize the effectiveness of your own skills vs them, as well as knowing your own limitations and when to use certain skills at crucial moments rather than just spamming them every time they come off of CD. Many times it comes down to who is better at utilizing CC.
You mention same builds, gear, etc as if that never happens, but it happens constantly, especially in games where there isnt much customization to your class r classes full of known cookie cutter builds that the majority of people run with. What happens when 2 people int he same end game gear and same build fight eachother? The better player wins.
I dont think anyone expects all the variables to be equal. They do expect to have a half decent chance to win if they play well though. I dont think thats unreasonable at all. The thing about pvp is that someone has to lose. Players need to thicken up their skins. I reccomend for you all to go work construction for a few months to achieve this.
You will probabally still lose to some guy who has invested 10000 hours to perfect his character and technique, but it wont bother you nearly as much.
TSW is mash builders then hit finisher - what skill does that take? To me, after playing TSW in beta and starting month - takes no skill at all.
Many games have random loot.
It isn't a myth - it is just you elaborated situations that can happen - doesn't mean the game is NOT skill based - that is bad luck.
Everyone want an advantage - that is human nature. So what? The point of all things being equal (in the game design) means you need to understand your class you are playing. If you don't, you will get killed.
All your points can be explained away, logically by other arguments - I have just posted a few as an example.
Your arguments do not change the idea of a skill based game.
Meaningful crafting in GW2?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Well i am an advocate against pvp in rpg...period let alone the equality or skill argument.
What i see 99% of the time in pvp is players standing right out in the open spamming each other and strafing around and around.
Play UT or Quake,players don't stand in the open,they shoot and duck behind cover or keep changing weapons to fit the need.
Skill is a funny/od term in a way that does NOT mean BEST.I can use a perfect example from being in Hockey tournaments.I would watch the warm ups and the otehr team was like omg these guys look good,tons of skill.Then the game starts and we blow them off the ice,not with skill but other factors like SMARTS and toughness and predictability.
The same thing goes for gaming,you might be a MUCH better aim with a sniper rifle,but i might be a smarter player.Example your sniper would not be much good ,if i didn't stand out in the open to make it useful.If i stay behind cover,it forces you out to use a different weapon.Or i might circle around and flank you or sneak up behind.
PVP has always been a cheap afterthoguht for rpg games and it looks to remain that way.Perhaps part of the problem is that FPS maps are for the most part hand designed,mapping in rpg's has usually a lot of auto generated terrain.
If you have ever watched a skill video from some fps games,your jaw would drop,you just won't see tha tsame type of skill in RPG's.
SKILL UT style pro Quake Rpg's cannot come close to replicating this type of skill and action.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Thanks for the heads up..hmm pay $15/month to get prison raped for 30 days...pass
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
In that CONTEXT gw2 has meaningful crafting.
Something wow like doesn't (as raid gear is nearly always the best)
Tsw uses a SKILL based progression system. Apparently this makes it a sandbox 80
QFE
My best friend is a hardcore GW2 fanatic, and he was making the same arguments most were making on here that ironically smells of Apple Hipsterism. Of those being skill based pvp, gear "doesn't matter", no "end-game", no "trinity", etc etc.
Guess what......
+Gear "matters" in WvW & PvE.
+"Skill" based PvP is a myth in GW2 as there are a few classes that are completely broken in terms of balance compared to others (Warrior vs Necromancer for instance).
+There is an "End Game" for GW2, and that is karma grinding once you hit 80 for the cosmetic looks you want. Then you can pick and choose some other dead-end task to do until that is "completed". Rinse, repeat.....
+Trinity in GW2 definitely exists, but instead of "Tank" / "Dps" / "Healer" it is "DPS", "Control", or "Support".
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
The gear/no-gear arguement is BS anyway.
OK, one of the biggest complaints by those who are for the GW2 system is that players with gear ROFOLSTOMP players without and that's it's ONLY due to gear.
LMFAO
In WoW, the best PVPers all have the same gear. The reason they all have the same gear is because they PVP. THey then PVP, after they are done PVPing, the go ahead and they PVP. Of course, they natrually well continue to PVP and PVP some more etc etc. Now, you don't suppose in all this PVP that they've done, they wouldn't have gained a little skill would you?
Now along come Joe Cazsh. He dabbles a little here and there He's done nothing impressive has a few macro'd abilities has som OK PVE gear and goed intto the BGs and becomes someone's wife.
WHAAAA! I can't PVP against them, they haz gearz!
Please! Show me a WoW player without gear complaining about being beaten by someone with gear and I'll show you someone who is just plain bad at PVP.
Guess what? If you didn't grind out hrs and hrs in PVP in WoW, I don't think you will do it in GW2 either. And those who did grind hrs and hrs in PVP in WoW now play GW2, Will. It will be the exact same people who got owned in WoW getting owned by the exact same people in GW2.
LOL. Skill----PFFT!
I was going to mention UT in a post, but then decided I needed to wait a bit before bringing it up. I was going to mention it because you literally had no choice but to improve your skill...or hack the game. Those were your choices for being good. You couldn't increase the power level of your character relative to anyone else.
The only thing comparable in the MMORPG world are tiered PvP tournaments where players all have the same gear. Outside of that, the set of skills needed to be "good" mostly involves dedication and the ability to keep doing the same thing, over and over again. Picking the right build makes a difference, but mostly it's just the time it takes to end up at the same plateau as the 'best' players.
That doesn't mean I don't think there is skill involved in playing MMORPG...just that the term as it is usually used doesn't really fit.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You know its hilarious because you can very easily tell who simply read the title and responded, and who actually read the post.
The post was not that some level of skill doesnt exist in MMO's, the post was detailing why being rewarded for skill in mmo's is almost impossible because the scenario almost never occurs where you are fairly competing against the other party.
Let me give you an example.
MMA fighting.
Do you think Shane Carwin would be happy that he beat a middleweight guy in a fight? No, because he knows it wasnt an equal playing ground, he would rather compete with people in his own weight class. Do you think he would be happy beating some amateur who is in his weight class (think, equal gear), but the guy has 2 fights under his belt in a local amateur league? No, there was no contest there.
Now, is eliminating gear making that the same thing in an MMO? My argument is NO, not even close.
The point is in an MMO there are way too many unctrolled variables to where you rarely get situations that you *should* feel proud of for winning. About the only time i can think of that would happen with a reasonable frequency would be if you and some buddies encounter a larger team of players and win. Then at least you were outnumbered so that can trump all the other stupid stuff in MMOs like the rock/paper/scissors mentality of class balance, or FOTM builds/classes that are clearly OP, etc.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Win vs lose.... the point of skill is to be good enough that you beat someone regardless of circumstance. We don't cheer when we beat people weaker than us (unless you're a DF player) we cheer when we beat someone who is stronger.
I've beaten an 80 warrior as a 50 necro in GW2. I cheered.
PS - formulate your OP better and maybe people will have a rough clue what your real argument is.
Worst warrior ever considering a properly built Warrior can hit 108% crit chance with +63% to crit damage.
My warrior merely takes key spamming of attack skills to melt any necromancer i've ever come across within seconds.
Necromancer is currently the MOST underpowered class ever in GW2 currently, and Warrior is the easiest & most powerful both in PVP & PvE
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
One on one mesmer is tops in the hands if a good player.
Not that gw2 is a 1 vs 1 game anyway. Spvp is all about cross class combos.
Personally I think it's totally fair for a poor skilled player to benefit with the advantage of hard-earned gear. Where I see the problem with some games recently though is where there is pvp gear and pve gear (e.g. Rift) that is earned by performing in pvp and pve. Those who spend all their time doing pvp also will have the best pvp gear. I think this is a mistake. Rare and expensive gear, e.g. raid loot should be the best gear in both pve and pvp. This rewards players who have put effort in the REAL part of the game (pve) and gives them extra protection in pvp situations against those who mostly play and are highly skilled in pvp.
Players who are fully geared and skilled in pvp as a result in balanced efforts in both elements of gameplay are, and should be, the player "bosses" of RPG games.
I would add that it would nice if pvp minigames used matchmaking that tries to balance the skills (win/loss ratio) and gear for each side so the minigames would always be challenging for both sides.
Oh man, dude i hope you have like a +6 against trolls Class VIIA Flame Retardent suit on, cus you're about to get nuclear levels of fire come down upon you
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I'm kind of surprised folks did respond. Your post may as well have listed three factors that separate an orange from an apple and that is why an orange is not an apple. Not so much a case that it was "full of win" - but that it is obvious. Yet, obviously as well, that didn't stop folks from trying to argue an apple is an orange, eh? Meh...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I'm vote Big Wheel.
Easy, argument over
Agree, special pvp only it pve only stats on gear is like a "danger mines" sign for "shite pvp here"
There is not a single mmo in existence that has both special stats and good pvp.