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Do strict party roles actually discourage socializing?

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Comments

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper Member CommonPosts: 2,751

    Well I think having strict roles will have some impact upon the amount of freedom and communication mid combat.

     

    But I generally think the major lack of communication and flexibility really stems from the group you are in (as you have alluded to). It really is a different kettle of fish if you are used to dedicated teams (as I believe you are).

     

     

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Well I think having strict roles will have some impact upon the amount of freedom and communication mid combat.

    You know, you may be right--it often makes for surly, angry Tanks, dragging their ninth pug of the day through another instance.

    But the blame's a little misplaced; PuG + Required Repetition are the actual culprits, yah?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by aphydork

    Things that discourage socializing in groups:

    1. Voice Chat with not the group

    2. Guild Chat

    3. Cross-server partying. The more people you have to party with, the less likely you are to group with any random person again. In older MMOs, you sometimes talked to people out of necessity. You know that there is a good chance that you will see them again. You better not piss them off.

    4. Communication not being required to complete the tasks at hand.

    5. People becoming increasingly antisocial. A person who might want to talk to people tries and fails to get their group to talk. In the next group, they are less likely to spark a conversation.

    But mostly the first three. Many players already have a group of friends or guild to chat with. There's very little reason to get to know the random people in your group, because you are unlikely to see them again and you already have a close-knit group of people to socialize with.

    It seems you realize that people do socialize in MMOs, but your suggestion is to break those social channels in order to artificially create a void so that people "socialize in groups."  When peopel are 'grouped' in an MMO it's to accomplish a specific task, and rarely is that task "shoot the breeze" or "get to know thy neighbor."

    Can you explain why you feel it's important to shut down socializing in social channels and move that to the group dynamic?

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper Member CommonPosts: 2,751
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Well I think having strict roles will have some impact upon the amount of freedom and communication mid combat.

    You know, you may be right--it often makes for surly, angry Tanks, dragging their ninth pug of the day through another instance.

    But the blame's a little misplaced; PuG + Repetition are the actual culprits, yah?

    Yep, the underlined seems the most likely culprit for sure.

     

    I think many people, after a certain amount of time, will reach saturation point upon which unless they are grouped in a familiar and capable team. The games tasks generally lose something in terms of freedom and communication (combat specific).

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Member UncommonPosts: 1,636
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Here's my hypothesis: Because we set clear and simplified partyroles in games there is less need for communication or genuine cooperation - that is solving a problem together. If one tanks, one heals and one does the DPS, all will be right, right? No need for anyone to say anything to each other as long as everyone does their job.

     

    What is important is the pace of combat and how much player roles need to synergize.  As you pointed out if all players have to do is their own role, then socializing becomes nonexistent.   The same can be said for combat if it becomes too fast.  A good example of this is FFXI.

     

    - Combat was slow enough it would be possible to carry a normal conversation with the group.

    - Skill chains were important for damage and required coordination between group members.

     

     

    I immediately thought of FFXI as well, as an example of specific class roles having no negative effect on socialization or communication. Because fights in XI were longer than in most other MMOs (including world mobs),  and the mobs didn't go down in a few seconds like they do in most other MMOs, communication became more important. In fact, the fact that people had specific roles and duties in a group actually helped communication.

    Before people started using Vent or TS for everything (because PS2 had no voice chat capability, many people on that platform couldn't use it at all while playing, unless they had a laptop right next to them), the chat log was filled with communication.

    Right from the initial pull, the puller would be communicating the type and difficulty of the mob they were bringing back, so the group could be prepared to deal with it. Each mob type had its own quirks and attacks, and depending on its "rating", it would give the group an easier, or tougher time. For example, the puller might say "Goblin Gambler IT++ incoming". That meant we would be fighting a Goblin Black Mage that was as much as several levels higher than the group (the IT part, for "Incredibly Tough") and had, say, High Evasion and Defense (the ++ part). Knowing all that, the group would know ahead of time what they were in for and be ready to deal with it.

    Normal mob fights in XI were not the "1, 2, 3, dead" affair they are in most other MMOs. I kinda miss that in other MMOs, personally.

    During the fight, people would call out different situations that could effect the fight, be it an attack the mob was about to use, if buffs were running, if a mage's MP was getting low, calling out attacks for a skill chain or magic burst,  and myriad other things. If there was an add, someone would call it out so those with CC capabilities could deal with it. Or, if we had no CC, that we could either try to deal with it by letting the tank keep aggro on both while the White Mage healed their asses off.  Or, if it was going too badly, everyone but the tank would haul ass to the zone line to lose aggro, so only the tank would die and then could be resurrected, rather than having a whole party wipe to deal with.

    People would create macros specifically to alert everyone else to when they were using certain skills, or let others know when their TP (tactical points) were high enough to begin a skill-chain or magic burst, or for the mages to alert everyone to their MP%, etc.

    Aside from verbal communication, there was also non-verbal communication in XI. Over time, as you played in a number of groups and took on and learned the behaviors of all the different mobs, certain things just became instinctive. You knew pretty much what others in the group would do and what their reaction would be in certain situations, and then what you, in response would or wouldn't do.

    The coolest thing about it was that you could start off in a group of people who'd never grouped before and it was a little rough and slow-going at first. But as the pulls would come in, people would start to gel, you'd hit a rhythm and after a time, the group was running like a well-oiled machine. This is, of course, assuming you didn't have people having to frequently drop group, leaving you to find a replacement; or you didn't hav someone with a pissy attitude who didn't want to cooperate, though they were usually kicked and replaced if it persisted.

    And then of course, in between all that, you had regular chatter, conversation and joking around, etc.

    So yeah, in FFXI everyone definitely had their specific party role, based on their job and/or job type and it actually enhanced the communication.

    To date (and no, this isn't "rose colored glasses"), xp groups in FFXI have remained one of my all-time favorite MMORPG pastimes, for all those reasons, and others. It's why I personally am not happy about the "more soloable" direction MMOs have taken. So much of the experience is lost when everyone's a lone wolf.

     

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    I think many people, after a certain amount of time, will reach saturation point upon which unless they are grouped in a familiar and capable team. The games tasks generally lose something in terms of freedom and communication (combat specific).

    It certainly lowers their tolerance for anything less than perfection.

    But is this not the standard (decade old) pug complaint thead?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Member CommonPosts: 1,538
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by aphydork

    Things that discourage socializing in groups:

    1. Voice Chat with not the group

    2. Guild Chat

    3. Cross-server partying. The more people you have to party with, the less likely you are to group with any random person again. In older MMOs, you sometimes talked to people out of necessity. You know that there is a good chance that you will see them again. You better not piss them off.

    4. Communication not being required to complete the tasks at hand.

    5. People becoming increasingly antisocial. A person who might want to talk to people tries and fails to get their group to talk. In the next group, they are less likely to spark a conversation.

    But mostly the first three. Many players already have a group of friends or guild to chat with. There's very little reason to get to know the random people in your group, because you are unlikely to see them again and you already have a close-knit group of people to socialize with.

    It seems you realize that people do socialize in MMOs, but your suggestion is to break those social channels in order to artificially create a void so that people "socialize in groups."  When peopel are 'grouped' in an MMO it's to accomplish a specific task, and rarely is that task "shoot the breeze" or "get to know thy neighbor."

    Can you explain why you feel it's important to shut down socializing in social channels and move that to the group dynamic?

     

    voice chat is an exclusion thing.  Even, or especially, within guilds.  It creates a sub-guild and alienates those outside it.  I think guilds should be either no voicechat/raid only voice chat or voice chat required.  Ive seen promising guilds ruined because things are going great for a few weeks until someone says 'hey, I have a vent server' and then the guild becomes segregated.

     

    The most social MMOs were before the voice chat era, and I dont think its a coincidence.  The button mashing is also a major factor, as one of the ways the genre has devolved is into less strategy, more action.  its not longer about resource management but instead about whack-a-mole.  Just as some people prefer turn based strategy to RTS, some people prefer a more strategic MMO and those people have been left out for quite a while.

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Member CommonPosts: 1,538
    Originally posted by TangentPoint
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Here's my hypothesis: Because we set clear and simplified partyroles in games there is less need for communication or genuine cooperation - that is solving a problem together. If one tanks, one heals and one does the DPS, all will be right, right? No need for anyone to say anything to each other as long as everyone does their job.

     

    What is important is the pace of combat and how much player roles need to synergize.  As you pointed out if all players have to do is their own role, then socializing becomes nonexistent.   The same can be said for combat if it becomes too fast.  A good example of this is FFXI.

     

    - Combat was slow enough it would be possible to carry a normal conversation with the group.

    - Skill chains were important for damage and required coordination between group members.

     

     

    I immediately thought of FFXI as well, as an example of specific class roles having no negative effect on socialization or communication. Because fights in XI were longer than in most other MMOs (including world mobs),  and the mobs didn't go down in a few seconds like they do in most other MMOs, communication became more important. In fact, the fact that people had specific roles and duties in a group actually helped communication.

    Before people started using Vent or TS for everything (because PS2 had no voice chat capability, many people on that platform couldn't use it at all while playing, unless they had a laptop right next to them), the chat log was filled with communication.

    Right from the initial pull, the puller would be communicating the type and difficulty of the mob they were bringing back, so the group could be prepared to deal with it. Each mob type had its own quirks and attacks, and depending on its "rating", it would give the group an easier, or tougher time. For example, the puller might say "Goblin Gambler IT++ incoming". That meant we would be fighting a Goblin Black Mage that was as much as several levels higher than the group (the IT part, for "Incredibly Tough") and had, say, High Evasion and Defense (the ++ part). Knowing all that, the group would know ahead of time what they were in for and be ready to deal with it.

    Normal mob fights in XI were not the "1, 2, 3, dead" affair they are in most other MMOs. I kinda miss that in other MMOs, personally.

    During the fight, people would call out different situations that could effect the fight, be it an attack the mob was about to use, if buffs were running, if a mage's MP was getting low, calling out attacks for a skill chain or magic burst,  and myriad other things. If there was an add, someone would call it out so those with CC capabilities could deal with it. Or, if we had no CC, that we could either try to deal with it by letting the tank keep aggro on both while the White Mage healed their asses off.  Or, if it was going too badly, everyone but the tank would haul ass to the zone line to lose aggro, so only the tank would die and then could be resurrected, rather than having a whole party wipe to deal with.

    People would create macros specifically to alert everyone else to when they were using certain skills, or let others know when their TP (tactical points) were high enough to begin a skill-chain or magic burst, or for the mages to alert everyone to their MP%, etc.

    Aside from verbal communication, there was also non-verbal communication in XI. Over time, as you played in a number of groups and took on and learned the behaviors of all the different mobs, certain things just became instinctive. You knew pretty much what others in the group would do and what their reaction would be in certain situations, and then what you, in response would or wouldn't do.

    The coolest thing about it was that you could start off in a group of people who'd never grouped before and it was a little rough and slow-going at first. But as the pulls would come in, people would start to gel, you'd hit a rhythm and after a time, the group was running like a well-oiled machine. This is, of course, assuming you didn't have people having to frequently drop group, leaving you to find a replacement; or you didn't hav someone with a pissy attitude who didn't want to cooperate, though they were usually kicked and replaced if it persisted.

    And then of course, in between all that, you had regular chatter, conversation and joking around, etc.

    So yeah, in FFXI everyone definitely had their specific party role, based on their job and/or job type and it actually enhanced the communication.

    To date (and no, this isn't "rose colored glasses"), xp groups in FFXI have remained one of my all-time favorite MMORPG pastimes, for all those reasons, and others. It's why I personally am not happy about the "more soloable" direction MMOs have taken. So much of the experience is lost when everyone's a lone wolf.

     

    And 95% of this applies exactly to EQ1 as well.

     

    I miss when a mob was something to be feared s opposed to fodder for AoE.

  • GamerUntouchGamerUntouch Member Posts: 488

    Yes, a lot.

    They also de-value teamwork, people are too blind to notice it.

     

    With the trinity, the real teamwork is done by the healer, the DPS only matter to damage the boss, the tank only matters to ensure the DPS/healer doesn't get damaged.

     

    The only class that really interacts with the other party members is the healer.

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by aphydork

    voice chat is an exclusion thing.  Even, or especially, within guilds.  It creates a sub-guild and alienates those outside it.  I think guilds should be either no voicechat/raid only voice chat or voice chat required.  Ive seen promising guilds ruined because things are going great for a few weeks until someone says 'hey, I have a vent server' and then the guild becomes segregated.

     

    The most social MMOs were before the voice chat era, and I dont think its a coincidence.  The button mashing is also a major factor, as one of the ways the genre has devolved is into less strategy, more action.  its not longer about resource management but instead about whack-a-mole.  Just as some people prefer turn based strategy to RTS, some people prefer a more strategic MMO and those people have been left out for quite a while.

    How do you measure socializing in MMOs? And do you feel you've been left out?

    Action does not exclude strategy, but action implies fast pace. And voice chat is the most effective mode of communication in those games. You have a point with segregation but I have Mumble and Teamspeak on all the time even when I'm not playing. When I was playing Eve I received game-related messages on my phone. What more do you demand of me? -I come over and have dinner with you?

    C'mon...

    The people who refuse to move on to voice chat, they have only themselves to blame. Not the games, not "the generation today", themselves.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    Originally posted by GamerUntouch

    Yes, a lot.

    They also de-value teamwork, people are too blind to notice it.

     

    With the trinity, the real teamwork is done by the healer, the DPS only matter to damage the boss, the tank only matters to ensure the DPS/healer doesn't get damaged.

     

    The only class that really interacts with the other party members is the healer.

    With the Trinity - there are set roles, so if you do your profession correctly, no communication is required. I feel that the trinity devalued teamwork.


  • GamerUntouchGamerUntouch Member Posts: 488
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by GamerUntouch

    Yes, a lot.

    They also de-value teamwork, people are too blind to notice it.

     

    With the trinity, the real teamwork is done by the healer, the DPS only matter to damage the boss, the tank only matters to ensure the DPS/healer doesn't get damaged.

     

    The only class that really interacts with the other party members is the healer.

    With the Trinity - there are set roles, so if you do your profession correctly, no communication is required. I feel that the trinity devalued teamwork.

    That's what I'm saying.

  • fenistilfenistil Member Posts: 3,005
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by aphydork

    voice chat is an exclusion thing.  Even, or especially, within guilds.  It creates a sub-guild and alienates those outside it.  I think guilds should be either no voicechat/raid only voice chat or voice chat required.  Ive seen promising guilds ruined because things are going great for a few weeks until someone says 'hey, I have a vent server' and then the guild becomes segregated.

     

    The most social MMOs were before the voice chat era, and I dont think its a coincidence.  The button mashing is also a major factor, as one of the ways the genre has devolved is into less strategy, more action.  its not longer about resource management but instead about whack-a-mole.  Just as some people prefer turn based strategy to RTS, some people prefer a more strategic MMO and those people have been left out for quite a while.

    How do you measure socializing in MMOs? And do you feel you've been left out?

    Action does not exclude strategy, but action implies fast pace. And voice chat is the most effective mode of communication in those games. You have a point with segregation but I have Mumble and Teamspeak on all the time even when I'm not playing. When I was playing Eve I received game-related messages on my phone. What more do you demand of me? -I come over and have dinner with you?

    C'mon...

    The people who refuse to move on to voice chat, they have only themselves to blame. Not the games, not "the generation today", themselves.

    Well aside of raids or pvp I don't like voice chat because it is wearing me out, listnening to some blabling, so I usually stay out of guilds that use voice chat aside of combat grouping.

  • ArakaziArakazi Member UncommonPosts: 911
    Actually I believe the harder the game becomes, the more social it becomes. In easy dungeons people just like to get their loot or whatever currency they are farming and leave. In tough dungeons where more co-ordination is needed the game can be a fun and social exerience.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,429

    Certainly easymode means we don’t have to talk/text etc.

    Part of the issue lies in what players expect to do in a MMO. There are certain defined activities we expect to see, in which we do our gameplay a set way. Socializing does not fit well into most of those activities. Something like the need to refresh yourself after a lot of adventuring in a bar would help with the socializing. They had something like this in SWG.

  • rungardrungard Member Posts: 1,035
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by aphydork

    Things that discourage socializing in groups:

    1. Voice Chat with not the group

    2. Guild Chat

    3. Cross-server partying. The more people you have to party with, the less likely you are to group with any random person again. In older MMOs, you sometimes talked to people out of necessity. You know that there is a good chance that you will see them again. You better not piss them off.

    4. Communication not being required to complete the tasks at hand.

    5. People becoming increasingly antisocial. A person who might want to talk to people tries and fails to get their group to talk. In the next group, they are less likely to spark a conversation.

    But mostly the first three. Many players already have a group of friends or guild to chat with. There's very little reason to get to know the random people in your group, because you are unlikely to see them again and you already have a close-knit group of people to socialize with.

    It seems you realize that people do socialize in MMOs, but your suggestion is to break those social channels in order to artificially create a void so that people "socialize in groups."  When peopel are 'grouped' in an MMO it's to accomplish a specific task, and rarely is that task "shoot the breeze" or "get to know thy neighbor."

    Can you explain why you feel it's important to shut down socializing in social channels and move that to the group dynamic?

     

    voice chat is an exclusion thing.  Even, or especially, within guilds.  It creates a sub-guild and alienates those outside it.  I think guilds should be either no voicechat/raid only voice chat or voice chat required.  Ive seen promising guilds ruined because things are going great for a few weeks until someone says 'hey, I have a vent server' and then the guild becomes segregated.

     

    The most social MMOs were before the voice chat era, and I dont think its a coincidence.  The button mashing is also a major factor, as one of the ways the genre has devolved is into less strategy, more action.  its not longer about resource management but instead about whack-a-mole.  Just as some people prefer turn based strategy to RTS, some people prefer a more strategic MMO and those people have been left out for quite a while.

     voice chat is the ultimate inclusion. What i mean by this is that the game will be very playable on a console, which will mean much more players than pc alone. I would expect to see EQN on the playstation 4 as well as pc.

     

    image

  • aphydorkaphydork Member Posts: 133
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Can you explain why you feel it's important to shut down socializing in social channels and move that to the group dynamic?

    I didn't state that something should be done about it. I simply answered the question as to why people socialize less in groups.

    Trinity or non-Trinity does not matter. I can be just as social or anti-social in both. What encourages communication are deaths. Deaths get people talking, because no one likes dying over and over. Deaths can occur in either, despite how you feel about them and how you want to tell us all about how you feel about them--please don't.

     

    Think of it like grade school. When you are new to a school district and don't have many friends, you reach out to others out of necessity, unless you are comfortable with being alone. After you've established yourself with a solid group of friends, you are comfortable and less pressured to make friends. Even if you meet nice enough people, you know that you have your support structure already, so it is not necessary for you to actively reach out.

    The school district is a metaphor for the gaming community. When everyone first started playing MMOs, they reached out. Now that everyone has their cliques, it is no longer necessary. It might be nice, but whether or not you make new friends with your party members, you already have your friends, be they in your guild or in a particular voice chat server.

    And now that classrooms can be made up of students from other schools in the school district, who's to say when you'll ever see a person from one of the other schools after you're done taking the class? Classrooms being parties, and other schools being other servers.

    Befriending people through socializing becomes even less necessary.

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