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Are paid for expansions, actually pay to win?
TheScavenger
Member EpicPosts: 3,321
From my understanding, pay to win usually means cash shop items...buy a game item for power, that can't be retained in any other way, for real life money. In pay to win games you are forced to pay to compete with others.
How are paid expansions any different? WoW is a great example of this, since I played the most out of it.
I get to level 60...all is fine. I do raids, get raid items...eventually get a whole raid set. Expansion comes out called Burning Crusade. Suddenly, I am FORCED to buy it...as I would be unlocked out of 10 levels, unable to go to the new lands and can't get any of the new items...which greens end up better than the previous raid items. So, I am now having to pay to win. If I don't pay, I can't compete...and there is no other means to level or get items with everyone else who has the expansion.
On the other hand. EVE has free expansions, no one is ever forced to spend money (outside of the subscription)...everyone is ALWAYS on the same level of everyone else...not counting the player skill/played time. But there are no expansions where you are suddenly limited in the ships you can use or parts of space you can go in. There is also no skills that are limited because a new expansion came out.
So, how are paid expansions not pay to win? It has the same definition as pay to win cash shop games...does it not?
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Comments
Within the expansion players enjoy the same benefits in a game without a cash shop and are playing the same content tailored to them on a level playing field.
With a cash shop you literally unbalance every player's power on an individual basis, sometimes to an extreme amount because some players spend much more than others.
They're totally different things. While expansions provide power increases, players are still balanced in relationship to the content, with pay2win games where cash shop offer power items / potions / enchancement that's no longer true, the players are given power other players don't have in relationship to the content.
Then maybe devs would concentrate on nailing games for long term play rather than a quick cash in.
Except the OP is using the Expansion as cashshop equivalent.
Players that buy the expansion can have an advantage over those that do not buy it if there is a power increase in the expansion. This would be similar to players buying P2W items from a cashshop over those that didn't.
You are saying players that all buy the expansion have the same items available to them, but this is also true to players that buy the P2W items from a cashshop
Which means you lose.
Someone that has gained the max levels of expansion...is going to have a HUGE advantage over someone that is 5 or 10 levels lower than him/her.
And I don't count paying a sub has part of pay to win, because everyone is expected to pay said sub. Very different than having an expansion that is locked out to everyone, except those who buy it.
At least with a subscription and free expansions (like in EVE), everyone is on an even playing field.
That doesn't take to games that don't raise levels/item levels...and expand horizontally. But I can't think of any games that do that. Maybe Guild Wars 1?
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
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Actually "pay to win" refers to purchases after box (including xpacs) and any subs to make you more powerful. That's it IMO.
Eve is heavily dependent on IG money which can be bought by RL money through PLEX. So Eve is also Pay2Win.
As for expansions, well if people with expansions are competing in the same world as people without expansions, like PvP battlegrounds and PvE content then I guess expansions could be considered Pay2Win. However, keep in mind that buying an expansion gives you nothing, it just allows you to get more power but you still have to actually do what it takes to get that power increase.
My gaming blog
Seriously...
The amount of crap some of you will come up with to defend F2P/Cashshops.
My brain hurts.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Yes.
Expansions are pay to win because you can't win the expansion without buying it.
Buying a game is pay to win. You can't win the game without buying it, right? You dirty pirate, you
Life is pay to win because you need to buy food to continue living, and you need to spend money to make money.
MMORPG.com is pay to win because if you didn't have an internet connection, you couldn't attempt to make terrible threads.
So what people are really saying is. As long as that "epic sword of killeverything" comes with content that you have to overcome first to get it. Then its not P2W.
So if a P2W game stopped selling epic gear for instance, but instead they started selling epic dungeons! Which was the only place to get the epic gear, it would be ok? Cause thats not P2W its a small expansion pack.
...Just stop...
My brain still hurts....and your making it worse.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I'm guessing a lot of people didn't bother to read your post, just the title.
Having to pay for better gear/extra levels is usually considered p2w, not sure why certain expansions aren't.
It does not.
The Deep Web is sca-ry.
Fucking play the game to have fun and meet new and interesting people. If you think the game gives an unfair enviroment that impedes you from doing that, then leave.
MMORPG's are NOT about winning at an individual level.
Have a good day.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Eve is only pay to win if you include Bribery... ie.. pay your opponent to lose, which oddly enough, does happen, the last alliance tournament saw billions of isk change hands
They are similar, but not entirely.
Cash shop items are usually individual items. Pay to win, when it comes to a cash shop, usually involves an item that is not obtainable in-game, that will give you an unfair advantage over people who play. Or it allows you to skip the grind to obtain said item.
Expansions generally do not give you any items. It gives you access to items, as well as a significant amount of content. It is all in-game and they do not really give anyone an unfair advantage over another. You ultimately need to work to obtain the access you recieve by purchasing an expansion. You don't buy it and immediately level up 10 times, or become a hero to certain factions in order to gain items.
The closest similiarity would be if you considered an expansion, a map pack, feature pack, and item pack all in one. But still, you ultimately need to work towards the end game, you aren't just handed it in traditional pay to win shops.
As long as your version of successful competition means an even playing field, then yes - expansions are P2W because you have to keep up with everyone else in order to compete.
Once you stop competing with things that haven't happened yet, you might feel less stressed and have more money in your wallet. :P
Because you aren't paying for levels. You are paying for access to gain new levels or access to the possibility to acquire the new gear.
There is a huge difference.
Expansions are 30-60$ a year or more, cash shop is microtransactions that can go unlimited.
Make a cash shop that has 60$ limit per owner per year and I will swallow it.
btw. EVE has PLEX -> ISK so what are we even talking about here?
Thats why I said P2W items should include a dungeon pack or something where you have to get the items from. That way they can call it "content" and not P2W. I should sell this idea...
I'm going to make this simple.
Paid expensions are not pay to win.
Why are the not pay to win do you ask? Because buying the expansion gives you no power at all. All it does is give you the ABILITY to get power through in-game means (assuming they up the level cap).
Any argument that tries to state they are pay to win is ridiculous. You can argue that it's unfair to charge a sub in addition to paid expansions, that's a decent argument. But trying to say they are pay to win is just silly.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
[mod edit] With the mentality people have and how everyone complains about everything that they are give . More proof to me that people who get everything for free respect nothing and only know how to complain.
I agree that if you sold a very easy "dungeon" that took like 15 minutes and had the most powerful items at the end of it, then that would be P2W.
But you are basically taking the concept of the paid expansion or DLC to an extreme point that no game has ever taken it. And you can't really use a hypothetical, extremely specialized example to argue the general point that expansions are supposedly P2W.
The fact is that every single expansion I have played has not been P2W. Is it possible to craft an expansion so that it is P2W? Sure.
Has it ever happened? Not to my knowledge.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Noone say that life is not P2W. Of course it is. That's exactly why I don't want my entertaiment to be. In my entertaiment time I don't want to think about real life money cause that bring thoughs about my work, bills, my investments and similar things.
Kinda obvious no?