Originally posted by ShakyMo Raiding makes everything else in the game rubbish.
Not one game that has tiered raiding endgame has good pvp or good crafting.
Wow, EQ, eq2, rift, swtor, Aoc since it changed - all of them have piss poor pvp and crafting.
SWG had awesome crafting and still had some raids. In order to make Bounty Hunter armor, you had to take an armorsmith with all the required ingredients to a crafting station in a special spot at the end of a dungeon and hold people off until the armorsmith could craft the armor. I thought that was awesome. There are lots of ways you can combine the two.
We've raided for 13 years, everything from 72 to 10 man, it was fun at times, but I've just always enjoyed small group content way more. A better all around experience in my opinion.
I don't think turning some challenging high end open world events into something that guilds could seek out and trigger would be bad in GW2 as it'd still be open to strangers, but I have no interest in the raid atmosphere fostered by games like EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, WoW, Rift or FF, not in GW2 anyway.
So many games offer that, I like that someone is offering something different.
It depends on what you want from a game obviously. Our guild runs dungeons every night and I'm enjoying the crap out of it.
5 People chatting and joking while taking on the top content just ends up being more enjoyable than 20+ people either talking over eachother or not talking at all due to having to listen to raid instructions. God I so don't miss that.
The event system leaves so much room for them to explore new encounters for guilds, while still being friendly to random players joining in, that I don't see any reason they'd resort to the tired old raid grind system of nearly every other game. It just wouldn't make sense.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Good answer bully. 8) So what would be a reason for playing wow other than raiding? You wouldn't play it craft, as crafting is useless in wow, just a gold sink. You wouldn't play it to pvp, as you can get wow style pvp for free in moba games, or you can get better pvp actually designed for a mmo not a lobby game in games like gw2 and eve
Actually crafting in WoW is a money maker. It always has been, even more so in MoP. Farming mats is a money maker too. Ask a alchemist if crafting is a gold sink. Arena PvP is the only mmorpg Esport on the market. As far as what to do besides raid and arena? Idk ask the other 7-8 million people who play WoW that don't do either. There are a lot of meta games and rep grinds, and fluff in WoW. This is what WoW has on the competition. Many flavors of content for all types of players, not just for casuals.
THe point is, right now the only people playing WoW are the hardcore players, not the casual players. There NEEDS to be a game for the casual players. THere are plenty of hardcore games out there - Rift, WoW, TERA, TSW, EVE, etc. What is out there for the casual player? Name one other than GW2. People on this site, act as if casual gaming is a bane on the exsistance of humanity and it is not.
I dont have the time to spend 8 hours a day gaming and if I did, I STILL wouldn't do it. I did it in the past but I am over that. There is more to RL than games to escape from RL..
Your logic seems a little off there. Why would a game developer create content for players who are not going to stick around to play it? Where is the financial incentive for that kind of thing? Sure, you might get some of the players to stick around, but only if you create a bunch of one off content that gets seen one time per player. It's not worth the effort. Besides, they'll be back for the next expansion anyway.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The problem with raiding is that it destroys a games risk/reward balace and alienates players that dont like raiding.
It turns a game into a second job a competitive epeen fest.
In order for your game to have raiding it needs to give awesome rewards that you cant find anywhere else.
If you dont people simlpy wont do them.
So by adding in these reward anyone that dislikes that mechanic cant access these items and are left seeing all of these people parading their new gear around a major city.
Overtime any non-raider feels like the second class citizen. Overtime the raiders become top of the food chain and the community goes south from there.
Adding progression raiding into a mmo is the worst thing you could do.
There's nothing wrong with a system that allows multiple paths to the same level of gear. Raiding gear doesn't HAVE to be the best gear. The content just has to be fun and a worthwhile alternative to crafting or dungeons for many people.
Originally posted by Fion Originally posted by XiaokiOriginally posted by FionGuild Wars 1 didn't have raids
Yes it did.Guild Wars 1 has Elite Missions. I remember a couple having a max of 12 players.Did you really play GW1?
Elite Missions are raids in the losest sense of the word. Most people don't even call them 'raids' because unlike raiding in other MMOGs, there is no gear progression through multiple tiers. Instead they rewarded some unique skins and boss drops. Frankly I don't know anyone who ever even called them Raids back in the day when I played GW1 a tun.
It doesnt matter what you called them, they were raids.
Also, tiered gear progression is not a determining factor.
Okay next time it's a 1-5 scale we all stand in the middle.
Originally posted by Scalpless
I think no gear grind is what was hyped, not that all dungeons are for five people. GW1 had dungeons for larger groups, too, and they worked quite well.
If these dungeons didn't give better rewards, I would probably like them, but not "love them". More variety in content is always good. I think your poll lacks less extreme options. There's a good reason why polls like this usually use a 1-5 scale.
Well I would not mind, any end game content added is a bonus. But I bet all my money that they will NOT add raids for this update. We will have to wait a long time to see any content added that supports groups of more than 5 people.
There's nothing wrong with a system that allows multiple paths to the same level of gear. Raiding gear doesn't HAVE to be the best gear. The content just has to be fun and a worthwhile alternative to crafting or dungeons for many people.
Can you name any game that has raiding that was worthwhile to play in, even IF the rewards are about on par with smaller dungeons, soloing, group questing, or the like? Because I can't think of any that didn't end up with all of the good stuff placed behind raiding and raiding alone.
I think the anti-raid crew are indulging in a little tunnel vision here. The word 'raid' is clearly a loaded one - but raids do NOT have to be gated, elitist or offer more than can be found by other routes. They should exist to expand the possible experiences in the game, not be an exclusive 'club'.
Comments like 'if they introduce raiding I will leave' do not help - nor do they address the issue. It would be much better to be specific and say what type of raiding is unacceptable - i.e. gated, elistist, exclusively rewarded raiding.
If ANet can redefine questing - they sure as hell can redefine raiding to NOT have these undesirable elements....
10 man content with the same power-level of rewards as five-man, but with extra rewards for Guilds as a whole is what I would like to see.
Something for larger groups to do - and for Guilds to work towards.
I like that these Ascended items they are introducing are only a tiny bit more powerful than exotics but not necessarily that they are introducing a new stat. It's all pretty neutral stuff though - nothing which tips the balance of power here.
This agony stat doesn't sound like the best idea at the moment however - it seems like a form of indirect gating and gating is crapola.
I also welcome the new paths to getting legendaries - the current grind is a real turn off.
But the game needs reasons for GUILDS to stick at it. In a game where everything is puggable and the benefit of Guilds is something which can be put aside without any real disadvantage, the need for people to log on in larger groups is lost.
I miss having a good number of people from my Guild on at the same time working towards the same goals. You can be as social as you like, but if you are all doing different content regularly then Teamspeak can fall silent. This never happened before and I don't like it. We have regular sessions in the TS 'chill'out' room just to chat - because GW2 combat is quite involving and we can't play and talk at the same time whilst concentrating on different objectives.
So because we enjoy talking to one another we feel the need to stop playing to do it!
Counterproductive to say the least....
I know people in 3 separate Guilds and similar stories come from all of them.
The game needs larger group Guild-centric content to counteract this.
Comments
SWG had awesome crafting and still had some raids. In order to make Bounty Hunter armor, you had to take an armorsmith with all the required ingredients to a crafting station in a special spot at the end of a dungeon and hold people off until the armorsmith could craft the armor. I thought that was awesome. There are lots of ways you can combine the two.
We've raided for 13 years, everything from 72 to 10 man, it was fun at times, but I've just always enjoyed small group content way more. A better all around experience in my opinion.
I don't think turning some challenging high end open world events into something that guilds could seek out and trigger would be bad in GW2 as it'd still be open to strangers, but I have no interest in the raid atmosphere fostered by games like EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, WoW, Rift or FF, not in GW2 anyway.
So many games offer that, I like that someone is offering something different.
It depends on what you want from a game obviously. Our guild runs dungeons every night and I'm enjoying the crap out of it.
5 People chatting and joking while taking on the top content just ends up being more enjoyable than 20+ people either talking over eachother or not talking at all due to having to listen to raid instructions. God I so don't miss that.
The event system leaves so much room for them to explore new encounters for guilds, while still being friendly to random players joining in, that I don't see any reason they'd resort to the tired old raid grind system of nearly every other game. It just wouldn't make sense.
Your logic seems a little off there. Why would a game developer create content for players who are not going to stick around to play it? Where is the financial incentive for that kind of thing? Sure, you might get some of the players to stick around, but only if you create a bunch of one off content that gets seen one time per player. It's not worth the effort. Besides, they'll be back for the next expansion anyway.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
There's nothing wrong with a system that allows multiple paths to the same level of gear. Raiding gear doesn't HAVE to be the best gear. The content just has to be fun and a worthwhile alternative to crafting or dungeons for many people.
Elite Missions are raids in the losest sense of the word. Most people don't even call them 'raids' because unlike raiding in other MMOGs, there is no gear progression through multiple tiers. Instead they rewarded some unique skins and boss drops. Frankly I don't know anyone who ever even called them Raids back in the day when I played GW1 a tun.
It doesnt matter what you called them, they were raids.
Also, tiered gear progression is not a determining factor.
Best Regards, ...
Well I would not mind, any end game content added is a bonus. But I bet all my money that they will NOT add raids for this update. We will have to wait a long time to see any content added that supports groups of more than 5 people.
Edit; Typos
Can you name any game that has raiding that was worthwhile to play in, even IF the rewards are about on par with smaller dungeons, soloing, group questing, or the like? Because I can't think of any that didn't end up with all of the good stuff placed behind raiding and raiding alone.
I think the anti-raid crew are indulging in a little tunnel vision here. The word 'raid' is clearly a loaded one - but raids do NOT have to be gated, elitist or offer more than can be found by other routes. They should exist to expand the possible experiences in the game, not be an exclusive 'club'.
Comments like 'if they introduce raiding I will leave' do not help - nor do they address the issue. It would be much better to be specific and say what type of raiding is unacceptable - i.e. gated, elistist, exclusively rewarded raiding.
If ANet can redefine questing - they sure as hell can redefine raiding to NOT have these undesirable elements....
10 man content with the same power-level of rewards as five-man, but with extra rewards for Guilds as a whole is what I would like to see.
Something for larger groups to do - and for Guilds to work towards.
I like that these Ascended items they are introducing are only a tiny bit more powerful than exotics but not necessarily that they are introducing a new stat. It's all pretty neutral stuff though - nothing which tips the balance of power here.
This agony stat doesn't sound like the best idea at the moment however - it seems like a form of indirect gating and gating is crapola.
I also welcome the new paths to getting legendaries - the current grind is a real turn off.
But the game needs reasons for GUILDS to stick at it. In a game where everything is puggable and the benefit of Guilds is something which can be put aside without any real disadvantage, the need for people to log on in larger groups is lost.
I miss having a good number of people from my Guild on at the same time working towards the same goals. You can be as social as you like, but if you are all doing different content regularly then Teamspeak can fall silent. This never happened before and I don't like it. We have regular sessions in the TS 'chill'out' room just to chat - because GW2 combat is quite involving and we can't play and talk at the same time whilst concentrating on different objectives.
So because we enjoy talking to one another we feel the need to stop playing to do it!
Counterproductive to say the least....
I know people in 3 separate Guilds and similar stories come from all of them.
The game needs larger group Guild-centric content to counteract this.
Just my two pence!
Really? I wasn't aware they added RAID content, please link me to the patch notes. Thanks.
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