Originally posted by StarI There's planty of modern choices of what you call sandbox PvE games. It's just that some of us call them themeparks.
No there isnt.
Themeparks tend to be questdriven games focused on looting stuff. There are a few hybrids like Vanguard with some sandbox parts but nothing really focused on building stuff which is the main part of real sandbox mechanics.
Sandboxes have player created content, themeparks usually tells you what to do.
Really lol.
Housing: totally player made from the mortar to bricks to wallpaper and every single thing you can think of.
seems like the word sandbox gets bandied about a lot, often in relation to games that don't actually support sandbox gameplay, thats not to say that there arent a number of games out there that don't have some sandbox elements, but a themepark game with a few sandbox mechanics, is still a themepark. For a game to truly be considered a sandbox, the game cannot be focused on a particular style or type of gameplay, it should be up to the players themselves to determine what type of gameplay they want to 'indulge' in, thats not to say that the gameplay should not have consequences, just that it shouldnt be limited by an 'arbitrary' game mechanic. One of the reasons why i think that a game that does not have a player based economy, doesn't even begin to qualify as a sandbox game. One of the things i really liked about SWG, pre-cu was the way it integrated social based gameplay within the game, im not sure i've come across any other game that has managed to do that since, often wondered what would have become of that game if they hadnt tinkered it to death.
Originally posted by StarI There's planty of modern choices of what you call sandbox PvE games. It's just that some of us call them themeparks.
Give examples please because i do not know any......
You don't know any themepark? lol
And no, pure PvE games without certain proper PvP elements are not sandboxes, sorry guys.
By that line of thinking, Lincoln Logs aren't a toy unless you're throwing them at people.
Heh, I remember Lincoln logs, but I recall, after you built the cabin, what the heck did you do with it? Kick it apart of course so you could do it again.
I actually remember building forts out of Legos and Lincoln logs, populating them with plastic toy soldiers and tanks and then blowing up the structures piece by piece, well at least until the bombers came and leveled everything/everyone.
Then I recall asking my friends to join in, and we all would build forts, then knock each others structures down, eventually smashing everything so we could do it all again.
Sort of sounds like a prelude to a modern day PVP centric MMORPG to me.
At least I know where I learned the behavior from.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
to the OP, even though there is PVP in eve, it's still probably the best game for a pve gamer who wants a sand-box.
people (who have not played it, or who have not played it too long) will tell you eve is full of gankers but they really arent being truthful.
in my first 2 years of eve i got ganked a grand total of one time, and that was when i tried to be slick and cut across low-sec to go somewhere faster. i didnt enter the pvp universe of eve until i felt like it. i know plenty of corps in eve who are completely content with having nothing to do with pvp and they still have a real effect on the game world (in the realm of crafting because, in eve everything is crafted.)
we even have pve people in my corp out in 0.0.they might get into a pvp situation once a month, when trouble literally comes into our system. but otherwise they contribute in other ways to our alliance.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
If you envision a world, where the NPCs/NPC factions would interact, with other words attack the player settlements, and destroy withit some of it, or at least generate enough danger for ongoing gameplay, and the world would change dynamically between NPC factions land and players owned and controlled land a PvE only Sandbox would work very well. But such a AI is very hard to implement, and very unpredictable.. a little bit to hard and no player settlement would hold against it, to soft and you encounter the same problem if they would be nonexistent.
This is actually quite interesting idea. Have NPC faction. It could be sort of colonization style of gameplay. You invade continent and try to conquesr it. But NPC faction is prohibiting you to do it. Faction can be stronger or weaker... It does not matter. If it's stronger, you will eventually loose and world would "restart" with weaker NPC faction. If PC faction wins, world "restarts" with NPC faction stronger. Well the biggest problem here is, it would be cool strategy game, but not very cool mmorpg I believe.
I think problem is, this is not how people envision sandbox PvE, anyway... they don't want to play vs. environment, they want game where people create more and more content for them. In other words themepark with sandbox features. Question is, where is the line between themepark and sandbox?
If you envision a world, where the NPCs/NPC factions would interact, with other words attack the player settlements, and destroy withit some of it, or at least generate enough danger for ongoing gameplay, and the world would change dynamically between NPC factions land and players owned and controlled land a PvE only Sandbox would work very well. But such a AI is very hard to implement, and very unpredictable.. a little bit to hard and no player settlement would hold against it, to soft and you encounter the same problem if they would be nonexistent.
This is actually quite interesting idea. Have NPC faction. It could be sort of colonization style of gameplay. You invade continent and try to conquesr it. But NPC faction is prohibiting you to do it. Faction can be stronger or weaker... It does not matter. If it's stronger, you will eventually loose and world would "restart" with weaker NPC faction. If PC faction wins, world "restarts" with NPC faction stronger. Well the biggest problem here is, it would be cool strategy game, but not very cool mmorpg I believe.
I think problem is, this is not how people envision sandbox PvE, anyway... they don't want to play vs. environment, they want game where people create more and more content for them. In other words themepark with sandbox features. Question is, where is the line between themepark and sandbox?
Territory control vs. NPCs is a pretty good idea and actually how some parts of GW2 and Firefall work. Both are themepark games, but it would be nice to see something similar in a more sandbox environment.
Back when GW2 was in development, I thought Orr would be like WvW, except against NPCs. That would've been a nice, sandbox-ish PvE endgame.
Heh, I remember Lincoln logs, but I recall, after you built the cabin, what the heck did you do with it? Kick it apart of course so you could do it again.
Well, we did truly terrible things to the GI Joe trapped inside as it burned to the ground, and exploded, around him.
I think maybe we were a bit too old for LLs...access to Lincoln Logs and fireworks at the same time?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
If you envision a world, where the NPCs/NPC factions would interact, with other words attack the player settlements, and destroy withit some of it, or at least generate enough danger for ongoing gameplay, and the world would change dynamically between NPC factions land and players owned and controlled land a PvE only Sandbox would work very well. But such a AI is very hard to implement, and very unpredictable.. a little bit to hard and no player settlement would hold against it, to soft and you encounter the same problem if they would be nonexistent.
This is actually quite interesting idea. Have NPC faction. It could be sort of colonization style of gameplay. You invade continent and try to conquesr it. But NPC faction is prohibiting you to do it. Faction can be stronger or weaker... It does not matter. If it's stronger, you will eventually loose and world would "restart" with weaker NPC faction. If PC faction wins, world "restarts" with NPC faction stronger. Well the biggest problem here is, it would be cool strategy game, but not very cool mmorpg I believe.
I think problem is, this is not how people envision sandbox PvE, anyway... they don't want to play vs. environment, they want game where people create more and more content for them. In other words themepark with sandbox features. Question is, where is the line between themepark and sandbox?
Territory control vs. NPCs is a pretty good idea and actually how some parts of GW2 and Firefall work. Both are themepark games, but it would be nice to see something similar in a more sandbox environment.
Back when GW2 was in development, I thought Orr would be like WvW, except against NPCs. That would've been a nice, sandbox-ish PvE endgame.
Yeap. Especially dont think about NPC faction, how you would look at player factions. It can be evil Ork empire, Undead Horde, Sauron, Trolls or whatever. Mobs with some higher level AI, cooperation(building up stuff) and targets(destroy stuff from the players, or loot stuff from the player, i thought this one was funny from old UO).. not just to stay in one place and wait until they will be beaten to death.
Edit: And about the PvP vs PvE Sandbox, which is in my mind a rather themeparkish way to talk about sandboxes..
The simple truth for longterm sandbox gameplay with a lot of players(massive multiplayer) is that the stuff you build up will be destroyed at one point, or at least can be destroyed. Either it is a more clever Mob AI or another player. Just to remind you on my first post a few pages behind. Or you have unlimited land, but that one will be rather boring very soon.
But I think part of the problem is SWG, which was more a Sandpark thans a Sandbox. But it was really done perfect, till they messed it up. It was the best of both worlds. You did not have to pvp unless you joined a specfic faction. And you could play the game completely without joining the faction.
WE need something like SWG is what we really need. but Fantasy driven.
played M59,UO,lineage,EQ,Daoc,Entropia,SWG,Horizons,Lineage2.EQ2,Vangaurd,Irth online, DarkFall,Star Trek and many others that did not make the cut or i just plain forgetting about.
Sandboxes should have good PVE and allow for PVP with consequences. What's the point of amassing wealth in a video game if you cannot lose it? An MMO should have rich people and poor people. Powerful people and weak people. To me a sandbox is akin to a second world to escape reality and the game needs to be designed around that premise. Some goals that may take months or years to accomplish. Where other people can see and recognize your E-Greatness.
A lot of the Sandbox games are not really sandboxes but big pvp arenas. A sandbox game cannot be truely great if the games main focus is pvp. It must be a PVE game first with systems in place to allow for player generated content that is not all pvp related, but the game must have pvp. There needs to be risk that goes with reward.
Without the PVP aspect the game you play will quickly flatline out in the fun department. When you experience the high highs and the low lows, you establish an emotional connection that will stay with you far longer than you will realize.
Originally posted by StarI There's planty of modern choices of what you call sandbox PvE games. It's just that some of us call them themeparks.
Give examples please because i do not know any......
You don't know any themepark? lol
And no, pure PvE games without certain proper PvP elements are not sandboxes, sorry guys.
By that line of thinking, Lincoln Logs aren't a toy unless you're throwing them at people.
Heh, I remember Lincoln logs, but I recall, after you built the cabin, what the heck did you do with it? Kick it apart of course so you could do it again.
I actually remember building forts out of Legos and Lincoln logs, populating them with plastic toy soldiers and tanks and then blowing up the structures piece by piece, well at least until the bombers came and leveled everything/everyone.
Then I recall asking my friends to join in, and we all would build forts, then knock each others structures down, eventually smashing everything so we could do it all again.
Sort of sounds like a prelude to a modern day PVP centric MMORPG to me.
At least I know where I learned the behavior from.
Very similar experience here.
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I can't figure out what the deal is with PvP divisioning. Open World, flagged PvP but don't break up the servers. I find most PvP people are show offs. I'm not trying to sound like I am coming down on them. They like to strut, I can see that being a part of a game world. We all have Ego, I don't judge. The thing being, when you cut a line between PvP and PvE there is no way to strut. So what, you are a PvP guy on a PvP server. So is everyone else. It's mandatory.
Let the PvP people strut. Put them all on the same server. I remember SWG for Open World flagged. I would see the guys flagged up. It added a certain element to a PvE players game too. It didn't make me feel small because I wasn't flagged. It just added vibrancy to the population.
I can't figure out why it wasn't incorporated in to more MMO's.
I can't figure out what the deal is with PvP divisioning. Open World, flagged PvP but don't break up the servers. I find most PvP people are show offs. I'm not trying to sound like I am coming down on them. They like to strut, I can see that being a part of a game world. We all have Ego, I don't judge. The thing being, when you cut a line between PvP and PvE there is no way to strut. So what, you are a PvP guy on a PvP server. So is everyone else. It's mandatory.
Let the PvP people strut. Put them all on the same server. I remember SWG for Open World flagged. I would see the guys flagged up. It added a certain element to a PvE players game too. It didn't make me feel small because I wasn't flagged. It just added vibrancy to the population.
I can't figure out why it wasn't incorporated in to more MMO's.
The problem is, that a flagged PvP system is not a overall good solution. It is an easy way out, to avoid rampart, senseless pking, but with a price.
Raph Koster tried to improve a view things with SWG in comparsion to UO. But with the pvp system he chose the simple way out to avoid rampart pking, and he even commited it.
And now i tell you why.
It is about economy, about valuable resources and the control of it.. it is about the economy game, about importance from resources and the aquireing of it.
In a pve environment you could have just one spot for a rare resource.. nevertheless it would spread around the world, and a lot of player would camp that spot, flame each other, farm it.. it would be more annoying, then everything else. If you allow enough resource spawns, you will have inflation, and that valuable resource will be no longer valuable. Or you could put it into a dungeon.. now you have the gear grind/dungeon grind all over again.. ok, you dont grind about gear, but about that rare resource.. not really interesting.
Now place that one spot into a pvp environment(everyone flagged), than a fight about that territory could take place, and everyone would be highly interested to control those territory. The clan/faction/whatever, who controlls those territory would have full controll/monopoly about that resource and could set about any price for it, or even dont sell it at all. Now that resource will be a lot more rare just because of this. You will also have a complete gameplay element just because of that.(Conquer and Control the rare resource), wich is actually extremely fun, and involves/affects a lot of gameplay elements positivly.
One effect is, that resource gathering(e.g. ore), resource planting, breeding becomes more interesting, because it is usually tied to a territory, and it could become of that a territory of conflict.(example of tied to territory: Different plants just grow in different territories, different animals grow better in different territory, because e.g. climate, foot/plants etc.)
But that is also true for crafting and pvp at all. Another of those game elements, which would be affected would be trading, actually travelling to far away distance and protecting the stuff to sell .. again supply and demand/economy game.
But that meaningful pvp gameplay element could not happen with a pvp flagged system. Because the pve player could just walk into the territory, camp there, grab the resource. Or flag for pve transporting goods. I rather take the EvE system, or the more dynamic system i explained in this thread(a few pages before) with changing territories, and territory states. Safe zones, especially dynamic safe zones are far better than a flag system. Because you will have the same effect, a pve player can avoid pvp, but without affecting the complete game altogether.
As always, if you look at one feature you should always look at the complete picture and look ahead how that one will affect other things, and design your game accordingly. There are better ideas to protect pve players in certain cases, or to give them at least the option to avoid pvp without ruining a lot of other important gameplay elements.
Yeah but what you want to do in PVE sandbox ? Run around, holding hands with other players and killing mindless monsters ? You want to build castle or something ? What is the point of no one will siege it ?
Sandbox is all about tools and freedom to do whatever you want with them. That's it. This is why Day Z is so much fun. If you kill player - he stay dead. If he kill you, you stay dead. War Z on the other hand "kill" your player for around 24 hours. You can't play that character for next day if he is killed.
This create tension. This is fun. 2 or more players helping each other in Day Z is a GREAT help. BUT every time you encounter one (especially well armed) you have no idea if in next hours he will still help you or shoot you in the back.
This is something we want from sandbox games. World with actions and consequences. With tension. Running around killing monsters is stupid and pointless. It's boring. And it's give you nothing since if you are dead you will just respawn on some safe location nerby.
In real sandbox MMO that I love you eather stay dead or you will loose all your stuff. As example in EVE when they ganked me and blow up my battleship, I lost ship that cost around 300.000.000 (ship + equipment + cargo). That's around 14€ if I remember (if exchange is the same as back then).
From one fight I could not espace. That is what I love.
So when you complain about lack of sandbox...think of those that want a PvE sandbox...we literally have no MODERN choices at all.
Yeah, because if you want to run around, hold hands and kill some mobs with no real consequences or risk - go play themeparks like TOR, WOW or GW2.
gosh Dariuszp do you really think?
It's not about holding hands and killing mobs with no consequences or risk. It's about building things, creating, carving out civilizatoin. No one said anyting about "not having risk".
These people want to be able to solve survival puzzles, make somethng that is akin to a civilization, create a hovel deep in hte woods and survive, have the challenges of living in a virtual world. It's "man against nature" that they are intersted in not "man against man". If those terms even resonate with you?
Games like SWToR, WoW and GW2 dont' even remotely offer this type of game play.
come on you've got to be better than this.
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Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by KyleranHeh, I remember Lincoln logs, but I recall, after you built the cabin, what the heck did you do with it? Kick it apart of course so you could do it again.
Well, we did truly terrible things to the GI Joe trapped inside as it burned to the ground, and exploded, around him.
I think maybe we were a bit too old for LLs...access to Lincoln Logs and fireworks at the same time?
You know, not everyone did stuff like that. Some of us took the Lincoln Log structures apart because we knew our parents weren't buying us anymore of them and we wanted to build something else at some point.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
SWG had a vibrant economy though, prior to CU anyway. I was in a Soc? Or was it alliance.. I was in a player group, we had a city, we had all the elements and all we made was grind armor. Semi decent stat armor that could be made with what ever resources were spawning at the time. People bought us out every spawn cycle. The system worked.
The "best armor' could be wiped out with a single spawn of wooly or a copper. I didn't see a lack of PvP on SWG servers. We all knew who the "PvP guilds" were. They had that status. You lose that when everyone has that status.
Putting rare stuff in a game and wanting that game to be around in 5 years is counter productive. As the servers take shape, nothing stays rare. You can buy Technetium in EVE in the millions if you are inclined to pay for it. There was actually a long period of time you could get Nightmare battle ships cheaper than Paladin battle ships. Because they were being farmed in PvP zones that you couldn't really call unsafe even though there was no PvP regulation.
FFA never amounts to that. It amounts to who controls the faucets. Nothing stays rare. So dynamics need to be in the restricted availability. 1000 OQ steel was only on the server for 6 days, then it was gone forever. A Machariel BPC will always drop, just hit the sites enough.
Addition: Open World PvP flagging systems can't be added after the fact. EVE is going to be FFA for the duration of its life. The player base demands it, I wouldn't ask CCP to make that change, not even to just High Sec. Even a young game like Tera Online, I don't think they could make a radical change like that. It needs to be a system the game has from day one.
There is Archeage coming out hopefully some time soon.
Love was a lot of fun, but one of those games masses of players will probably never get into.
And Ryzom is anything but dead, I stuck my head in 3 weeks ago and there were more people in Pyr than I ever saw prior to the server merge.
edit: But otherwise I do agree, I would like to see more PvE/sandbox oriented games on the market in general.
Thought Archeage was going for a PvP approach as well?
As for Ryzom...I started up about 2 weeks ago. And I logged on various times...(all these are PST time): 9 am, 12 pm, 4 pm, 6 pm, 6:30 and varying between 8 and 9 pm. Twice at 7 pm. The times I saw most people on was 9 am, and 6/7 pm seemed the most busy. But maybe it was just unlucky...but I barely saw anyone outside of those times. And even then, I saw more people (and chat was WAY more active) before the merges...which I would think to see more...so again, maybe unlucky or something. Still, when I play a MMO, I expect to often see chat and people, not just once in a while. The forums didnt seem that lively either. Probably in 6 or 7 days of logging on I should add.
And I think Love's problem is Minecraft. I to be honest would rather play Minecraft than Love (I like the art style of Love way more than Minecraft though)...now maybe Love has evolved a lot since I saw it way back when it was new...but I find Minecraft survival multiplayer servers to be a lot better than what I saw on Love. And back at release, that was most common comment on these forums...people would rather play Minecraft. I think it was partially bad timing on this release, with Minecraft releasing at around the same time.
And I should add. Maybe I should have added this in the original post, but with the house being packed for thanksgiving, I felt kinda rushed. And the post was already kinda long to begin with.
I did play EVE as a "PvE" game, and that did seem to work. Especially after the random events and wormholes and stuff were added. AND I made SOOOOOOO much money in 0.0...0.0 is safer than highsec lol. I died more from suicide ganks in highsec (hey, someone put an item worth a million ISK in a can (no joke). Luckily I was smart enough to use a throwaway starter ship (didnt get the item)...and plus, the corp+alliance I was in werent liked at all sadly, and I was too new to discover that. Kept being told to join a corp right away, and I did, and no one liked them...turned out they were ex-GOONS that got kicked out of the goon alliance xD), so I left the corp right away. Than spent the whole 30 days I spent in 0.0. I took a group of friends to *** and we just ratted there and did wormholes, mined and other PvE stuff. It was actually rather fun.
It was nice to have the threat of players in EVE, even if 0.0 is safer than high-sec (and WAY safer than low-sec. Avoid low-sec.). So, while most people seem to focus on PvP stuff in EVE...it was actually better than any other sandbox PvE wise. I would sadly have to start over (completely new account), since the taint of the corp will forever be listed on my account. Last I heard, half got banned (dunno why), the other half are still there. So I haven't started up again. I would have to skill up enough to go back to that certain 0.0 space and do it all over again.
Though, it seems a lot of stuff in EVE is more for PvP...but for sandbox games that are already out (released, not in development/testing)...it does make a good PvE game. Compared to most other sandbox games out.
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Mild sidethought, but does anyone besides me notice that there never seems to be any natural disasters in any MMO?
Maybe if you want conflict of a sort in PVE only sandboxish games, you could try putting in natural disasters like Tornados, Tsunamis, Earthquakes, and maybe Volcanic Eruptions.
Of course, you could get creative and try planetary destabilization or something like that.
Why is every single sandbox that has been released in the past 5 years been PvP and PvP and PvP?
Asheron's Call...sandbox...does have a PvP server...but plenty of PvE servers...but its ancient
Istaria is probably my favorite, only because of playable dragons...but its ancient too
There was SWG...personally I didn't like it...I think I was way more into Anarchy Online back then, which after the rough launch, was what I played (along with Istaria)
The only modern PvE sandbox that still looks good is Saga of Ryzom...its fun...but the game is so dead. No one is playing it...even the trial isle is completely dead. See 1-3 people at most in town, sometimes I'm only one in the main town...
You (well us?) sandboxers complain about lack of sandbox...but its WAY worse for those that want PvE sandbox. At least you guys get way more choices that are modern, and don't have to go to an ancient MMO or an MMO that is completely dead.
And no, after playing WoW for years...every themepark game I've played (even GW2), I go "okay...done all the content...like WoW way more (mostly for the lore and it being warcraft)...next"...I don't want a themepark MMO. If I did, I'll just play WoW, it does themepark the best imo. But I'm done with WoW and themepark MMOs. I can't get into them at all.
No, what I want a PvE sandbox game. And the only choice out there is Ryzom...and I would play that, if the game wasn't so dead...I actually thought the server merges would boost population, but after merges, population plummeted to worse than vanguard ever was. I've never seen such a dead game. At least vanguard ALWAYS had 20+ people on the trial isle. Ryzom there is 1-3 (or 0 before I get on it)...and at peak maybe its 8 or 9, once in a while it gets to 10 (very rare)...its just so dead.
So when you complain about lack of sandbox...think of those that want a PvE sandbox...we literally have no MODERN choices at all.
Totally in awe over this...so many sandbox games are catoring to pve that its nuts. That said, if a game is a sandbox...then it would have owpvp...thats part of a sandbox, total freedom
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Ashen Empires has a loyal following. There's TONS to do, after the tutorial area you pretty much get plopped down in the town you choose and left to your own devices. There are several quests, but you have to go find them (no ! over people's heads hehe) And there's like 100+ skills to learn, from carpentry, to bows, to runecrafting. I dont' really play it much anymoer, since I got alot of skills maxed out, but I still log in to chat with old timers that have been playing forever.
Totally in awe over this...so many sandbox games are catoring to pve that its nuts. That said, if a game is a sandbox...then it would have owpvp...thats part of a sandbox, total freedom
players of a tale in the desert and second life would disagree with that...
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Comments
Really lol.
Housing: totally player made from the mortar to bricks to wallpaper and every single thing you can think of.
Guild House: totally player made.
Ships: totally player made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5lXH4PIxww
Robust crafting system
I don't think Vanguard does to bad in the building department for an hybrid, all of the above take a long time, it an instant.
I completely agree.
Take EVE for example. Probably best sandbox game - and will remain best for long time (since nothing else is comming)
But EVE is 100% focused on PVP.
You can play it PVE , but you will be missing 90% of goings on. And you will be forced into conflict anyway.
Its world. But world of war and violence netto.
Heh, I remember Lincoln logs, but I recall, after you built the cabin, what the heck did you do with it? Kick it apart of course so you could do it again.
I actually remember building forts out of Legos and Lincoln logs, populating them with plastic toy soldiers and tanks and then blowing up the structures piece by piece, well at least until the bombers came and leveled everything/everyone.
Then I recall asking my friends to join in, and we all would build forts, then knock each others structures down, eventually smashing everything so we could do it all again.
Sort of sounds like a prelude to a modern day PVP centric MMORPG to me.
At least I know where I learned the behavior from.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
to the OP, even though there is PVP in eve, it's still probably the best game for a pve gamer who wants a sand-box.
people (who have not played it, or who have not played it too long) will tell you eve is full of gankers but they really arent being truthful.
in my first 2 years of eve i got ganked a grand total of one time, and that was when i tried to be slick and cut across low-sec to go somewhere faster. i didnt enter the pvp universe of eve until i felt like it. i know plenty of corps in eve who are completely content with having nothing to do with pvp and they still have a real effect on the game world (in the realm of crafting because, in eve everything is crafted.)
we even have pve people in my corp out in 0.0.they might get into a pvp situation once a month, when trouble literally comes into our system. but otherwise they contribute in other ways to our alliance.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
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This is actually quite interesting idea. Have NPC faction. It could be sort of colonization style of gameplay. You invade continent and try to conquesr it. But NPC faction is prohibiting you to do it. Faction can be stronger or weaker... It does not matter. If it's stronger, you will eventually loose and world would "restart" with weaker NPC faction. If PC faction wins, world "restarts" with NPC faction stronger. Well the biggest problem here is, it would be cool strategy game, but not very cool mmorpg I believe.
I think problem is, this is not how people envision sandbox PvE, anyway... they don't want to play vs. environment, they want game where people create more and more content for them. In other words themepark with sandbox features. Question is, where is the line between themepark and sandbox?
Territory control vs. NPCs is a pretty good idea and actually how some parts of GW2 and Firefall work. Both are themepark games, but it would be nice to see something similar in a more sandbox environment.
Back when GW2 was in development, I thought Orr would be like WvW, except against NPCs. That would've been a nice, sandbox-ish PvE endgame.
Well, we did truly terrible things to the GI Joe trapped inside as it burned to the ground, and exploded, around him.
I think maybe we were a bit too old for LLs...access to Lincoln Logs and fireworks at the same time?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Yeap. Especially dont think about NPC faction, how you would look at player factions. It can be evil Ork empire, Undead Horde, Sauron, Trolls or whatever. Mobs with some higher level AI, cooperation(building up stuff) and targets(destroy stuff from the players, or loot stuff from the player, i thought this one was funny from old UO).. not just to stay in one place and wait until they will be beaten to death.
Edit: And about the PvP vs PvE Sandbox, which is in my mind a rather themeparkish way to talk about sandboxes..
The simple truth for longterm sandbox gameplay with a lot of players(massive multiplayer) is that the stuff you build up will be destroyed at one point, or at least can be destroyed. Either it is a more clever Mob AI or another player. Just to remind you on my first post a few pages behind. Or you have unlimited land, but that one will be rather boring very soon.
Nobody mentioned Wurm online.
But I think part of the problem is SWG, which was more a Sandpark thans a Sandbox. But it was really done perfect, till they messed it up. It was the best of both worlds. You did not have to pvp unless you joined a specfic faction. And you could play the game completely without joining the faction.
WE need something like SWG is what we really need. but Fantasy driven.
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Sandboxes should have good PVE and allow for PVP with consequences. What's the point of amassing wealth in a video game if you cannot lose it? An MMO should have rich people and poor people. Powerful people and weak people. To me a sandbox is akin to a second world to escape reality and the game needs to be designed around that premise. Some goals that may take months or years to accomplish. Where other people can see and recognize your E-Greatness.
A lot of the Sandbox games are not really sandboxes but big pvp arenas. A sandbox game cannot be truely great if the games main focus is pvp. It must be a PVE game first with systems in place to allow for player generated content that is not all pvp related, but the game must have pvp. There needs to be risk that goes with reward.
Without the PVP aspect the game you play will quickly flatline out in the fun department. When you experience the high highs and the low lows, you establish an emotional connection that will stay with you far longer than you will realize.
Very similar experience here.
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I can't figure out what the deal is with PvP divisioning. Open World, flagged PvP but don't break up the servers. I find most PvP people are show offs. I'm not trying to sound like I am coming down on them. They like to strut, I can see that being a part of a game world. We all have Ego, I don't judge. The thing being, when you cut a line between PvP and PvE there is no way to strut. So what, you are a PvP guy on a PvP server. So is everyone else. It's mandatory.
Let the PvP people strut. Put them all on the same server. I remember SWG for Open World flagged. I would see the guys flagged up. It added a certain element to a PvE players game too. It didn't make me feel small because I wasn't flagged. It just added vibrancy to the population.
I can't figure out why it wasn't incorporated in to more MMO's.
The problem is, that a flagged PvP system is not a overall good solution. It is an easy way out, to avoid rampart, senseless pking, but with a price.
Raph Koster tried to improve a view things with SWG in comparsion to UO. But with the pvp system he chose the simple way out to avoid rampart pking, and he even commited it.
And now i tell you why.
It is about economy, about valuable resources and the control of it.. it is about the economy game, about importance from resources and the aquireing of it.
In a pve environment you could have just one spot for a rare resource.. nevertheless it would spread around the world, and a lot of player would camp that spot, flame each other, farm it.. it would be more annoying, then everything else. If you allow enough resource spawns, you will have inflation, and that valuable resource will be no longer valuable. Or you could put it into a dungeon.. now you have the gear grind/dungeon grind all over again.. ok, you dont grind about gear, but about that rare resource.. not really interesting.Now place that one spot into a pvp environment(everyone flagged), than a fight about that territory could take place, and everyone would be highly interested to control those territory. The clan/faction/whatever, who controlls those territory would have full controll/monopoly about that resource and could set about any price for it, or even dont sell it at all. Now that resource will be a lot more rare just because of this. You will also have a complete gameplay element just because of that.(Conquer and Control the rare resource), wich is actually extremely fun, and involves/affects a lot of gameplay elements positivly.
One effect is, that resource gathering(e.g. ore), resource planting, breeding becomes more interesting, because it is usually tied to a territory, and it could become of that a territory of conflict.(example of tied to territory: Different plants just grow in different territories, different animals grow better in different territory, because e.g. climate, foot/plants etc.)
But that is also true for crafting and pvp at all. Another of those game elements, which would be affected would be trading, actually travelling to far away distance and protecting the stuff to sell .. again supply and demand/economy game.
But that meaningful pvp gameplay element could not happen with a pvp flagged system. Because the pve player could just walk into the territory, camp there, grab the resource. Or flag for pve transporting goods. I rather take the EvE system, or the more dynamic system i explained in this thread(a few pages before) with changing territories, and territory states. Safe zones, especially dynamic safe zones are far better than a flag system. Because you will have the same effect, a pve player can avoid pvp, but without affecting the complete game altogether.
As always, if you look at one feature you should always look at the complete picture and look ahead how that one will affect other things, and design your game accordingly. There are better ideas to protect pve players in certain cases, or to give them at least the option to avoid pvp without ruining a lot of other important gameplay elements.
gosh Dariuszp do you really think?
It's not about holding hands and killing mobs with no consequences or risk. It's about building things, creating, carving out civilizatoin. No one said anyting about "not having risk".
These people want to be able to solve survival puzzles, make somethng that is akin to a civilization, create a hovel deep in hte woods and survive, have the challenges of living in a virtual world. It's "man against nature" that they are intersted in not "man against man". If those terms even resonate with you?
Games like SWToR, WoW and GW2 dont' even remotely offer this type of game play.
come on you've got to be better than this.
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I think maybe we were a bit too old for LLs...access to Lincoln Logs and fireworks at the same time?
You know, not everyone did stuff like that. Some of us took the Lincoln Log structures apart because we knew our parents weren't buying us anymore of them and we wanted to build something else at some point.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
SWG had a vibrant economy though, prior to CU anyway. I was in a Soc? Or was it alliance.. I was in a player group, we had a city, we had all the elements and all we made was grind armor. Semi decent stat armor that could be made with what ever resources were spawning at the time. People bought us out every spawn cycle. The system worked.
The "best armor' could be wiped out with a single spawn of wooly or a copper. I didn't see a lack of PvP on SWG servers. We all knew who the "PvP guilds" were. They had that status. You lose that when everyone has that status.
Putting rare stuff in a game and wanting that game to be around in 5 years is counter productive. As the servers take shape, nothing stays rare. You can buy Technetium in EVE in the millions if you are inclined to pay for it. There was actually a long period of time you could get Nightmare battle ships cheaper than Paladin battle ships. Because they were being farmed in PvP zones that you couldn't really call unsafe even though there was no PvP regulation.
FFA never amounts to that. It amounts to who controls the faucets. Nothing stays rare. So dynamics need to be in the restricted availability. 1000 OQ steel was only on the server for 6 days, then it was gone forever. A Machariel BPC will always drop, just hit the sites enough.
Addition: Open World PvP flagging systems can't be added after the fact. EVE is going to be FFA for the duration of its life. The player base demands it, I wouldn't ask CCP to make that change, not even to just High Sec. Even a young game like Tera Online, I don't think they could make a radical change like that. It needs to be a system the game has from day one.
There is Archeage coming out hopefully some time soon.
Love was a lot of fun, but one of those games masses of players will probably never get into.
And Ryzom is anything but dead, I stuck my head in 3 weeks ago and there were more people in Pyr than I ever saw prior to the server merge.
edit: But otherwise I do agree, I would like to see more PvE/sandbox oriented games on the market in general.
Thought Archeage was going for a PvP approach as well?
As for Ryzom...I started up about 2 weeks ago. And I logged on various times...(all these are PST time): 9 am, 12 pm, 4 pm, 6 pm, 6:30 and varying between 8 and 9 pm. Twice at 7 pm. The times I saw most people on was 9 am, and 6/7 pm seemed the most busy. But maybe it was just unlucky...but I barely saw anyone outside of those times. And even then, I saw more people (and chat was WAY more active) before the merges...which I would think to see more...so again, maybe unlucky or something. Still, when I play a MMO, I expect to often see chat and people, not just once in a while. The forums didnt seem that lively either. Probably in 6 or 7 days of logging on I should add.
And I think Love's problem is Minecraft. I to be honest would rather play Minecraft than Love (I like the art style of Love way more than Minecraft though)...now maybe Love has evolved a lot since I saw it way back when it was new...but I find Minecraft survival multiplayer servers to be a lot better than what I saw on Love. And back at release, that was most common comment on these forums...people would rather play Minecraft. I think it was partially bad timing on this release, with Minecraft releasing at around the same time.
And I should add. Maybe I should have added this in the original post, but with the house being packed for thanksgiving, I felt kinda rushed. And the post was already kinda long to begin with.
I did play EVE as a "PvE" game, and that did seem to work. Especially after the random events and wormholes and stuff were added. AND I made SOOOOOOO much money in 0.0...0.0 is safer than highsec lol. I died more from suicide ganks in highsec (hey, someone put an item worth a million ISK in a can (no joke). Luckily I was smart enough to use a throwaway starter ship (didnt get the item)...and plus, the corp+alliance I was in werent liked at all sadly, and I was too new to discover that. Kept being told to join a corp right away, and I did, and no one liked them...turned out they were ex-GOONS that got kicked out of the goon alliance xD), so I left the corp right away. Than spent the whole 30 days I spent in 0.0. I took a group of friends to *** and we just ratted there and did wormholes, mined and other PvE stuff. It was actually rather fun.
It was nice to have the threat of players in EVE, even if 0.0 is safer than high-sec (and WAY safer than low-sec. Avoid low-sec.). So, while most people seem to focus on PvP stuff in EVE...it was actually better than any other sandbox PvE wise. I would sadly have to start over (completely new account), since the taint of the corp will forever be listed on my account. Last I heard, half got banned (dunno why), the other half are still there. So I haven't started up again. I would have to skill up enough to go back to that certain 0.0 space and do it all over again.
Though, it seems a lot of stuff in EVE is more for PvP...but for sandbox games that are already out (released, not in development/testing)...it does make a good PvE game. Compared to most other sandbox games out.
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Mild sidethought, but does anyone besides me notice that there never seems to be any natural disasters in any MMO?
Maybe if you want conflict of a sort in PVE only sandboxish games, you could try putting in natural disasters like Tornados, Tsunamis, Earthquakes, and maybe Volcanic Eruptions.
Of course, you could get creative and try planetary destabilization or something like that.
GAH, stupid double post! delete this please.
Totally in awe over this...so many sandbox games are catoring to pve that its nuts. That said, if a game is a sandbox...then it would have owpvp...thats part of a sandbox, total freedom
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players of a tale in the desert and second life would disagree with that...
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins