Personally loved playing a Bard in EQ and a Minstrel in DAOC , minstrel speed groups in PVP were quite fun , and folks loved having a bard in EQ for the buffs also.
Thanks again for the replies folks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like I'm mainly being directed toward bard-type classes in older MMOs like EQ2, Vanguard, and DAoC.
As I've already got an old account on EQ2, I downloaded the client again last night and fired up a Troubador. Then I realized one more thing I'm looking for: a ranged class. The Troubador seems to be at least partly a melee fighter. Does the Troub end up getting by at range later on when he's performing his support role in groups?
Of the classes recommended so far from various games, are any of them (like the Burg in LOTRO) melee and therefore less along the lines of what I'm looking for? My plan is to investigate the remaining options until I find a suitable ranged buffer/debuffer somewhere.
I had quite a bit of fun playing a 51-point Archon in Rift. It's purely a buffer/debuffer class that any and all groups/raids definitely want. It's a ranged class as well.
But yeah, most games are too simplistic in terms of actual combat involvement and depth to provide the proper space for a pure buffer/debuffer/cc'er role to really shine.
The majority of games are designed in such a way that just piling on more damage and heals is the optimal way to go, despite how uninteresting that actually is. Easier design and wider appeal I guess....
Well... not sure if you would lean at it but Aion does have the Chanter which is quite heavy on buffing/debuffing. Does a mixture of damage and healing and fits the support role in a party, one thats hard to ever go without.
Originally posted by XAPGames Originally posted by XiaokiRift has Support souls and thats probably as close you will get in the modern age.But dont expect groups to beat down your door clamoring for you. Theres a reason most other MMOs have ditched the "Buff/Debuff" class role.
When looking at classes in Aion, a player written document described the same thing about their Enchanter class. Support classes are often seen as non-essential in tank-n-spank combat.
Pretty much.
The full explanation being that if a Buff/Debuff classes' buffs and debuffs are too powerful they eventually become a necessity by the community.
The reason being that developers dont normally design encounters with the mindset that certain buffs and debuffs are present because if you dont have them then you are screwed. Meaning that if a class brings a powerful buff or debuff that can potentially trivialize the fight then everyone will want to do the fight with them so they too can have free loot.
So, at that point the developers have 2 choices: nerf the class or buff the boss. If they nerf the class then they anger everyone currently playing the class and if they buff the boss then the buff/debuff becomes absolutely necessary which will anger everyone that isnt bringing the class to the fight.
Now, that covers the "too powerful" side. Heres "too weak" and its much simpler:
If Buff/Debuff classes are too weak then no one will want them. They cant do any of the other roles as well as the classes made to do those roles and the buffs or debuffs they bring are too weak to offset not having another DPS or healer instead.
So, to avoid both scenarios developers have phased out Buff/Debuff classes and made buffs and debuffs in general "nice to have but not necessary".
As you can see the matter is quite complicated and, as someone has said, has nothing to do with MMOs being "dumbed down".
Originally posted by XiaokiRift has Support souls and thats probably as close you will get in the modern age.But dont expect groups to beat down your door clamoring for you. Theres a reason most other MMOs have ditched the "Buff/Debuff" class role.
When looking at classes in Aion, a player written document described the same thing about their Enchanter class. Support classes are often seen as non-essential in tank-n-spank combat.
Pretty much.
The full explanation being that if a Buff/Debuff classes' buffs and debuffs are too powerful they eventually become a necessity by the community.
The reason being that developers dont normally design encounters with the mindset that certain buffs and debuffs are present because if you dont have them then you are screwed. Meaning that if a class brings a powerful buff or debuff that can potentially trivialize the fight then everyone will want to do the fight with them so they too can have free loot.
So, at that point the developers have 2 choices: nerf the class or buff the boss. If they nerf the class then they anger everyone currently playing the class and if they buff the boss then the buff/debuff becomes absolutely necessary which will anger everyone that isnt bringing the class to the fight.
Now, that covers the "too powerful" side. Heres "too weak" and its much simpler:
If Buff/Debuff classes are too weak then no one will want them. They cant do any of the other roles as well as the classes made to do those roles and the buffs or debuffs they bring are too weak to offset not having another DPS or healer instead.
So, to avoid both scenarios developers have phased out Buff/Debuff classes and made buffs and debuffs in general "nice to have but not necessary".
As you can see the matter is quite complicated and, as someone has said, has nothing to do with MMOs being "dumbed down".
I would still call it dumbed down. But that isn't the point.
Devs are making all these changes for the better of the game and yet somehow after all these "improvements" games are less fun. That, in my mind, is the fundamental problem facing the industry and gamer retention.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Comments
Thanks again for the replies folks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like I'm mainly being directed toward bard-type classes in older MMOs like EQ2, Vanguard, and DAoC.
As I've already got an old account on EQ2, I downloaded the client again last night and fired up a Troubador. Then I realized one more thing I'm looking for: a ranged class. The Troubador seems to be at least partly a melee fighter. Does the Troub end up getting by at range later on when he's performing his support role in groups?
Of the classes recommended so far from various games, are any of them (like the Burg in LOTRO) melee and therefore less along the lines of what I'm looking for? My plan is to investigate the remaining options until I find a suitable ranged buffer/debuffer somewhere.
I had quite a bit of fun playing a 51-point Archon in Rift. It's purely a buffer/debuffer class that any and all groups/raids definitely want. It's a ranged class as well.
But yeah, most games are too simplistic in terms of actual combat involvement and depth to provide the proper space for a pure buffer/debuffer/cc'er role to really shine.
The majority of games are designed in such a way that just piling on more damage and heals is the optimal way to go, despite how uninteresting that actually is. Easier design and wider appeal I guess....
Rifts bard.
Guild wars 2 guardians can have pretty fun buffer builds.
When looking at classes in Aion, a player written document described the same thing about their Enchanter class. Support classes are often seen as non-essential in tank-n-spank combat.
Pretty much.
The full explanation being that if a Buff/Debuff classes' buffs and debuffs are too powerful they eventually become a necessity by the community.
The reason being that developers dont normally design encounters with the mindset that certain buffs and debuffs are present because if you dont have them then you are screwed. Meaning that if a class brings a powerful buff or debuff that can potentially trivialize the fight then everyone will want to do the fight with them so they too can have free loot.
So, at that point the developers have 2 choices: nerf the class or buff the boss.
If they nerf the class then they anger everyone currently playing the class and if they buff the boss then the buff/debuff becomes absolutely necessary which will anger everyone that isnt bringing the class to the fight.
Now, that covers the "too powerful" side. Heres "too weak" and its much simpler:
If Buff/Debuff classes are too weak then no one will want them. They cant do any of the other roles as well as the classes made to do those roles and the buffs or debuffs they bring are too weak to offset not having another DPS or healer instead.
So, to avoid both scenarios developers have phased out Buff/Debuff classes and made buffs and debuffs in general "nice to have but not necessary".
As you can see the matter is quite complicated and, as someone has said, has nothing to do with MMOs being "dumbed down".
I would still call it dumbed down. But that isn't the point.
Devs are making all these changes for the better of the game and yet somehow after all these "improvements" games are less fun. That, in my mind, is the fundamental problem facing the industry and gamer retention.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"