Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
[Column] General: Sexism in Gaming 2012: Anger & Intellect
This discussion has been closed.
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Comments
This is a horrible article!! Full of sweeping generalizations about men and women!
Truth is, everybody gets some level of harrassment in online gaming, nobody is safe from it. Nothing will ever stop it, unless we have big brother watch us 24/7, like China does!!!!
It seems sensorship is the only thing that will make some female gamers happy, they have no idea what they are asking for.
Personal experience however is verifiable, at least to the person having experienced it. Another person talking about something is hearsay.
Say, does 'elevatorgate' mean something to you?
I pity that you cannot be yourself then at all times and that you have to hide in presence of women.
This is an article based on a handful of tweets out of a population of millions. If I were to focus on the vocal minority and the internet trolls I could make a case for any sector of society being somehow unenlightened or bigoted in one way or another.
For me the article has almost zero merit. My first post so I thought I would start on a controversial note.
But that is exactly the problem, on the womans side!
She sees every insult as a personal attack on her, and then assumes that this is some sort of giant plot against women as a whole.
I think these women need to also "zoom out" and see it is just as much a problem for men as it is for women. These jerks dont care about gender, they attack everyone, especially those who show any kind of weakness.
Eh. That would be scary for many of the gentlemen here. Easier to nag about that its just a hoax. But then again it is always scary when you can feel the changes. An article like what we are dicussing atm wouldnt be real a couple of years ago. But slowly the gaming industry are learning that if they can attract women their custom base would increase wastley. Now the gaming community should only jump on the train as well...but that wont happen in a long time (see the comments made by the gentlemen's in this thread for a clear example)
I know trolls are every where. Personally, I find gaming with women just as enjoyable. Different perspective and all that. Trolls are going to do allthey can to rattle people cages. It is what they do. The best thing to do in case of a troll. Is ignore or report when the the fool crosses the sites TOS. and then let the Moderators and Admion take it from there.
As a gamer that started out as a table top.. Yes, I still enjopy it as well. The one thing my brothers, friends, and I all wanted as teens was to have some girls join us in our weekly gaming sessions. Even if it was only once or twice a month.
But in 1979 that was hard to come by in a small US town. Yes I am that old.
Basic human nature. Its as true for women as it is for men. Its down at the biological instinct level. In most people, they aren't even aware of it. You see the same thing in most other animals though out the world. Humans are part of that world, and what makes us the dominant species is our intelligence and the tools that flow from that. But underneath of all that, we have the same biological drives.
Those color and influence much of our perceptions and interactions. The two primary fundamental factors in human interactions are sex and power. Just about everything else flows from those two.
We are also a social animal, and we have elvolved to rely upon our pack to warn us of danger and assist us in hunting and gathering. So your argument is slightly flawed.
You've hit the nail on the head, here.
It's not about civility, it's about power. The moral supremacy of women is a vestige of the past, and society should be unfettered from those shackles as surely as any other "old world" social ideology.
Equality would dictate equal access and equal opportunity. In the case of gaming, mission accomplished. But, that's not enough. This is a case where a group believes that they are entitled to special treatment, and should have the authority to force others to change their behavior to whatever suits them.
Make no mistake, that entitlement is about power.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
Agree entirely.
Susan has every right to be angry about sexism. It's clearly an important issue to her.
We also shouldn't disregard her concerns simply because we do not see what it is she is talking about. We should try to zoom out and look at the entire issue before passing judgement on anything that is said about it.
I myself do not believe the problem is as broad and general as Susan seems to make out, and the article she has written is guilty of hypocrisy in many ways. I also feel like I'm being tarnished with the same brush as the minority of men guilty of such antisocial behaviour; that's offensive.
Let's be honest about it, the article is a rant based on very limited 'evidence'. It is an issue that I have never encountered outside of the normal realms of trolling, which happens to everyone.
Ms. Jonte,
I think I must live in my online games in a place where I don't hear all of these things. I know they exist, I've heard too much about them for them not to exist, and I have told a few gamers making sexist or angry-about-women comments to cool it, were I in a group with them. However, unless I am utterly ignorant and obtuse, I don't hear more than the off-the-wall comment with long periods of "cool, everyone's gaming" in-between.
With the fact this does exist, I can only say that, as with my Sociology class in college, right now, that I am shocked. I was thinking I had a racist streak, a sexist streak, etc., but to hear it discussed in class, I can clearly say that I would be considered a religious defender of the races and sexes. When it comes to homosexuality, not so much, but with the races and sexes, I am appalled at the things I've heard over the last few weeks.
When I am in the game, I am there to game, period. I'm not there to bash anyone, period, and I will defend ANYONE, woman, man, black, asian, white, etc., ad nauseum who is being picked on, unless I recognize that it's just a good ol' fashioned ribbing, and then I'm more likely to drive on than get involved.
Rest assured, it is not ALL men that are doing this. These games are about moving the mouse around and pushing buttons, more often than not, and the tactics and strategy of the game is not, necessarily, all that robust. So, any PERSON who commits to doing the sorts of things you're talking about, shows in general that they are not all that bright, that they need a life, and are not really any sort of Human being I want to hang around with.
Perhaps my ignorance of these things, in general, puts me in the unique place of never NEEDING to commit to them to cultivate a false sense of bravado.
There was really no need for that, surely?
What I don't understand is why people get all bent out of shape because a few vocal jerks venting their nonsense on the net. I am not making excuses for their crudeness, but their entire intent is for you to pay attention to them. The best medicine in this case is just to ignore them. If you make it personel, you are just achieving their goal.
Kind of like that religious group that pickets military funerals, the best thing that anyone can do is to ignore them. If they were not given all the attention the media gives them, they would soon stop.
You cannot stop people from being jerks, but if no one pays attention to them their intent will be defeated.
And after a mountain of comments I have to say that, from all the game sites I usually read, mmorpg.com has the most uninformed community so far.
Sorry dudes, but sexism is an issue. And it's not light or a thing that happens in isolated cases. And it has been debated deeply throughout last year in a way that if you still think it's not an issue, you've probably been living under a rock or at least haven't been reading any gaming sites. The numbers, debates, ideas, points, data, episodes are all there for everyone and pratically everywhere.
Anyway, let's see if this new writer can change some minds around here with time.
Hey there. We are some that are thinking a bit futher than "oh, Ivent seen this so called sexism. Its not a physcial thing so its not real! And btw, why dont we talk about men issues!!" I for one have stoped to engange is discussions about gender issues on forum mainly because of what we can see in this thread
I dont believe that articles as this will change opinions. Information, solid arguments wont bit on opinions that many here have. Its a lost cause. But the context is slowly changing. The industry that are producing games are slowly understanding that by alienating a whole group (women) they are losing many customers...so we will see changes that will solve some alarming gender issues.
Not in the least. It addresses the reason for the observed behavior. The social aspect is part of the development cycle as well. Sex and power are inherently part of that social dynamic.
You made the choice to play with that team. If you end up playing with misogynistic asshats thats your fault not theirs. You can choose to be whatever you want to be in an online game, and block those you don't like. Its the same with racial stereotypes, or nationalistic views. I've played on games before with people from europe who insulted me for being "american" simply because of my accent. I chose to block them, not suffer abuse... or.. I could always play the victim.
We log into games to play in a fantasy world, but we have a choice in our own lives not to live in one. This is an online game, not your job where you don't have a block button, or a random encounter on the street where you can get physically harrassed. Its in an environment where clicking the "block" button and the "report" button will have swift and immediate results.
"Uninformed"? Don't you mean un indoctrinated into the PC perspective on this issue? Many people find the attitude and approach of the PC brigade to use one of their favorite words "offensive". WAY too many people are using these various "ism" labels, to advance their own personal agendas.
Yes, "sexism" does exist (and will likely always do so), and yes, some aspects need to be confronted, and those expressing them shunned, or other wise dealt with. But lets not make it some type of Holy Crusade and turn it into yet another Them vs US mud slinging fest. That doesn't help either side to understand each other, and plays into the hands of those using this to advance their own agendas.
If you understand the various tactics being used, you would realize just how much control is being exercised over the public discussion of various issues ("sexism" being just one of many). Just one of those tactics is known as framing (in this context framing the debate).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(social_sciences)
From the Wiki.
"In the context of politics or mass media communication, a frame defines the packaging of an element of rhetoric in such a way as to encourage certain interpretations and to discourage others."
By determining what the "acceptable" bounds of a given topic is, one can limit the scope of any "reasonable" discussion of that topic. Notice the weasle words "acceptable" and "reasonable"? Who gets to define those? That all ties back to those who have influence and power within the various social systems involved.
"Sexism" like many of the other "isms" are examples of real problems, that do exist, and need to be dealt with. But wise people do not go about that in a fashion that is bound to be counter productive. Nor do they obsess about all aspects of the various problems or give them equal priority.
Lets all attempt to treat each other as people, and leave those with a chip on one or both shoulders to stew in their own anger. Perhaps they will tire of that self imposed burden over time, and realize that there are better ways of dealing with the problems.
I understand that. and that is where I'd draw the line. After competing it needs to be civil. Before and after. Insults or mocking is slung in Halo or any PvP all the time. To disencourage the enemy. Normally just pisses them off but whatever. Another problem with sexism is a women's fault. When you say you're a feminist sometimes we go 'Oh god, No!' Because of the image potrayed br SEXIST females who think they're better than Men. Sexism works both ways ladies. I personalty PREFER to play with women because they tend to be easier going than the males I've met. But when push comes to shove. If you're a decent person. I'll play with you. Not everyone has this view. Than we got the fact of Trolls and griefing on the internet in some circles is a POSITIVE thing. Women: Look out for those cirlces. They're no good and if you want to complain about 'sexism' in them it's like complaining about the Racism in a Nazi convention. It's redundant. You need to fight for your rights and us men need to fight for ours. We need to be equal and that will be a long time. When all men and women decide to stop saying one sex is better. Than all of that sexim will start to dissolve. But over all. The blame goes like this
75% Male arrogance
25% Women Arrogance
After all .We men did run your lives for a good few centuries so it's kind of a cultural thing that you're not fully accepted yet. And it takes decades to change a culture.
Chivalry as a broad concept is an ideal. Even when chivalry was big amongst knights, they were often not genuinely chivalrous towards one and other, and there were very few knights in the land ;D It is a rarity now as it was then ;P Also, it is technically a masculine system of morality.
I also think that people could do with practicing some restraint and honest introspection in concern to such topics as sexism, racism, war, religion, politics etc, etc, probably before they try to express themselves with any degre of authority. The justification for the conclusion is as important as the conclusion itself. They should also realise that other people are free to come to their own conclusions, and no amount of dogmatic and rageful hypocrisy will alter that fact.
I, for example, believe that Susan is right to express displeasure over sexism. It is indeed a negative trait in our society, and it's something that we are broadly attempting to deal with. If you actually look at how far we've come over the last 100 years in concern to such issues as sexism, we live in a far more tolerant, open, free and equal society (globally) than we ever have at any other point in human history. To apply such broad strokes as to paint all men as chauvinistic and sexist is at once an insult to men who aren't that way inclined, and also a huge devaluation of the things we have achieved and the progress we have made.
I do not agree that it is prevalent in gaming circles any longer, and I also do not agree with her use of the word "tsunami". It is hyperbole at its finest. A tsunami is a significant natural disaster. When a tsunami impacts human civilization, it destroys the lives of thousands upon thousands of people. In recent memory, tsunamis and tidal waves have been significant, destructive and deadly forces of nature. The metaphor suggests that sexism impacts gaming with a similar degree of force; it clearly does not.
Sadly there are - on both sides - sensationalist and vocal elements to the sexism debate. #1ReasonWhy, for example, consists of a hell of a lot of "uh man bad" type content. More prevalent and centrist anti-sexism groups are largely encouraging people to be wary of #1ReasonWhy, which is quite telling.
Sexism is something we should deal with, just like most of the other isms, and that process is "ongoing". Articles like this, where the writer broadly paints all men with the same brush and plays up the severity of the problem to doubtful proportions, are not doing that process any favours. More balanced consideration and reasonable discussion, and less outraged outbursts and sensationalism is in order, I think.
Have to ask, but is it "U"? Am I right in that being what you meant? Just curious hehe.
Yup, you got it ;D