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forced to start over for new classes/horrible, anyone agree?
sxvs
Member Posts: 109
i thought final fantasy 11 had it right, where you choose a species and then that's your character... if you want to take up being a ninja or a samurai you could and you still kept your main character's progress, then you could easily try out black mage and white mage and still kept your character.
this whole thing where if you want to try out a new class you are forced to start completely over with an alt is absolute crap.
being able to have 1 main character and keeping all progress on that character and playing any class is completely awesome.
and if people wanted to create alts within this system they still could do it.
why does no other developer see how awesome final fantasy 11's system was?
anyone agree with this?
i'm usually ending up not being able to choose between the classes and start playing a bunch of characters and it's all a mess and it completely frustrates me and makes me want to stop playing because i'm essentially playing 4 characters or whatever, which i'm not sure if i'll even like that particular class. aghhhh it's so frustrating.
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having levels is the problem. not the lack of dual class system.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
The Secret World is skill based, and every character can gain every skill, so you can also play any way you like with the same character.
There are other games out there, like EvE or Mortal Online, that allow you to craft a character the way you want.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
just curious how it would work without levels? i'm assuming it would just focus on other stuff rather than levelling up?
i never minded levels that much, ever since rpg's began it was usually levelling up was it not? that would seem odd to me to take away levels but it could be interesting.
yeah, that's one of the main things i loved about the secret world, unfortunately i just couldn't for the life of me get into it's combat system.. i tried and tried but something about it completely turned me off.
i might give it another try later now that i've been away from it for a bit.
eve i would try but i heard that starting now you're at a huge disadvantage compared to everyone else who's been playing.
but to that point i guess there are some developers who do see how great that is, just wish more did.
There are other skilled based game, admitadely not many.
Darkfall for a pvp arena
planeshift for rp
ryzom for a sandbox wow type game
but could do with more and some alternatives to both types of current mmo(ao for instance), preferrably something well made for a change.
Absolutely agree, even in GW2 one of the fastest leveling experiences I've experienced it's still ridiculous to have to go thru that process. It's not like these mmo's are randomized dungeon experiences like say D3 or TL II so the content seems fresh each time you do something, so leveling in an mmo is usually tedious at best.
Not to mention that they'd prolly help the economy and not have to herd people to the store in that game to buy gems if they had things like class and race change because that's what people buy the most out of stores usually.
you too hooked on the line of what rpgs traditionally had.
look at the biggest popular FPS games on the market. at one point in time, people thought Health Packs was the stable in FPS genre, until Halo came out with health regen which new aged FPS also use now. Health Pack FPS get downrated now.
stop holding onto traditonal mechanics of the past. Levels are old. Not needed, since most of a player's time is spent at endgame anyway.
Just take a game like WoW or RIft which has level paths. If the levels were removed, than the whole game is endgame. from the first dungeon, to the last dungeon. Every single thing that is craftable is endgame crafting, since there is no need for low level filler crafting which become useless to endgame players.
all progression is endgame.
Players can venture and explore anywhere from day 1, not until they reach a certain level.
That would nearly triple the amount of endgame content in most MMO like that. in Rift, the lower level events wouldnt be low level anymore, since everywhere you go is max level content.
Progression could be something thats more group focused rather than just fully indivisual like most MMOs tend to do things now days. There is so much that can be done in a MMO that didnt have levels. no more population tiers. The game would be a world. Players go and play where ever they enjoy, not just where the endgame starts.
but most developers cant see past traditions.
in the above example, I would have a character I play most, my main, and my alts can jump in and have their own progression and add to my overall group( aka Guild, or faction, or alliance, what ever) and build its own indivisual story. doesnt need levels to tell me what to do. playing and having fun, can do that for me.
oh well.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
it doesn't have to be skill based, i just want to be able to play other classes with 1 character.
like guild wars 2 would be the game i'm playing right now but i can't choose a class, i played a few classes to 13 and i liked 4 classes and can't choose between them and don't feel like levelling up 4 different characters.
i decide "ok i'm just going to be elementalist" and i start playing elementalist and the whole time i'm thinking i want to also play thief or whatever..
if i could switch to playing thief and then go back to elementalist, and then try ranger that would be perfect!
i can't play a game just because it allows you to do this, it also has to be fun to me hehe.
i wasn't looking for recommendations i was more trying to find out if people agree to this philosophy over the creating a new character each time.
ie, where do you stand on it.
i see what you're saying and it makes sense... except to a person like me who doesn't raid or enjoy end game all that much.
from what i've seen of endgames who has the best gear simply replaces levels, it's all about who has this item level or what achievements you have, etc.
how is that much different then needing to be a certain level?
in pvp you basically go through a different level grind of gear grind so you can compete with the others who have much bettter gear.
unless they also removed the gear grind.
what i enjoy is the journey, exploring... so, for me levels actually work fairly well... it's just not being able to keep my character when i try out new classes that make things suck.
but it is possible i admit that i'm stuck in an old way of thinking like you said... if they could also while removing levels give the people who don't raid stuff to do as well that might be interesting.
maybe, it depends.
I like the idea of having only one character and one that can change classes but there really isn't a storied reason that makes sense to me.
Today I'm a warrior and tomorrow I'm a mage, one minute I'm a rogue and the next minute I'm a healer. seems silly.
You then have the other option where people can be multipel things. However, I don't like that because I don't believe players should be the best swordsman AND the best mage AND the best thief, etc all at once. I like the idea of player distinguishng themselves but making hard choices where one might have magic abilities (or whatever sci-fi equivalents are appropriate given a different setting) and warrior abilities but another would have the same only in different amounts or different intensities.
I would probably prefer players to have a certain amount of "picks" where they can assign different abilities and perhaps improve some abilities but at the cost of not adding or not improving others. this way a person would have to make hard choices on who they would be.
Of course, that creates a lot of interesting hybrids but what happens with those who are die hard min/maxers? In the end are they just going to be better in the long run?
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but certainly a person could in theory learn different things, no? i mean a person who learned different languages could they also not study elsewhere?
and you still have to go through the same process as if you created an alt, so what's the difference between a player levelling up a mage and then creating a new character and levelling up a warrior instead of using the same character to level up both?
that person could also just have 2 level capped characters and be on his mage, and then logout and log in to his warrior... it seems more effecient that he could just have the 1 character and choose from his classes, i would think.
1. If you remove levels, there is no endgame, just game.
2. Alts are extremely important for an MMO as it vastly increases the games lifespan, even without classes its important.
3. games that had no levels, like SWG still had classes and it was great.
4. games with no classes like Asherons Call, still had levels...and it was great.
So, OP, the real problem isnt levels or classes...its piss poor game design that isnt good enough to run through more than once.
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but endgame isnt defined by raiding or what not. Endgame is defined as gameplay thats for the max level. in most MMOs this is raiding, since Raids are only for max level players and not for anybody else.
in a game like WoW, Rift, etc, that didnt have Levels,
Exploration and journey which are things you seem to enjoy, would actually open up far more than it currently is.
Using GW2 as an example here, since its getting hype talk for its exploration. Currently in GW2 you cat venture everywhere and explore everywhere because the world is split into Levels. Try going to orr and discovering all the Vistas in Orr as a level 10 by yourself with no help from a max level. you cant, you would die to high level mobs with huge arrgo circles.
level ranges like this kill the idea exploration.
Now imagine the same game (GW2 in this case) without levels. Everything would be endgame. So from day 1 you could explore and journey from your starter area to Orr if thats what you wanted to do. No level tiers to stop you. Can can explore anywhere and make your own journey.
no need for the 1-15, 15-25, 25-35, 35-40, 40-50, 50-60, 60-75, 75-80 pre designed level paths. What kind of journey and exploration is that when its already laid out for you?
Gear Progression is also different concept than Endgame.Endgame consist of gameplay at Max level. even in level based games gear progression exist. So thats not really an attribute of endgame. But most MMOs do use this for endgame.
again going back to my FPS example before.
Most MMOs had health packs mechanics.
Until somebody named Halo tried something different and the whole genre changed to health regen. Just because thats how traditionally games did things, doesnt mean that trait defines the genre.
like I said before. Progression could be something different. Something more over all group focused (guild, faction, alliance) rather than indivisual focused like most MMOs do it now days. Yes individual progression would still exist, but no need for heavy item progression.
and with this idea in play, crafting would be more useful and meaningful, since everything that would be crafted would benefit everybody since there is no low level gear anymore.
check out WoWhead, and Rift's equivalent, or whatever GW2's version of it is. What percentage of the crafting recipes are for useless low level items that are meaningless once the masses reach endgame max level?
Here, take a look for yourself to see what I mean.
http://www.wowhead.com/skill=164
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I actually like leveling in an RPG, and I don't understand why people who are so against the idea are even interested in the RPG genre. An RPG without progression of some type is just not an RPG, and while you can still have progression with itemization I think gradually introducing players to new skills and abilities is a key feature of an RPG/MMO. I wouldn't play one without levels.
I loved the flexibility of FFXI and FFXIV's job system, and I'm looking forward to it again in FFXIV:ARR. I hate alts, when I'm paying a monthly fee for a game I want to be attached to my character. When I'm having to make alts and do the entire game again just because I want to play another class (or even classes I don't want to play, but need to in order to fill a certain needed role in a group) I feel cheated.
XIV's system topped FFXI's though in my opinion as we no longer have to go back to our mog houses to switch jobs, and in ARR you can even save equipment sets based on job so switching is even more of a painless experience. I'm paying to play an MMO if I need/want to switch from say a melee to a ranged DPS I should have that option with as little inconvenience as possible especially when I have maxed everything.
Of course if someone wanted to play alts instead for some role playing reason like the poster above who said they "avoided FF mmo's" because of the job system they obviously could, so that is a ridiculous argument.
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wow! i actually did completely understand what you were saying haha.. and it does make sense how the level range limits you in exploring and stuff, never completely saw it like that.
so basically that's sort of what creates "the themepark" because you're stuck in one place and are forced to stay there until you get out of that specifically made zone for your level to be in and then you just go through the motions? instead of being able explore anywhere.
yeah, that does make some sense.. i see what you mean how it's limited.
i guess i am stuck in the old way of thinking.. because i was thinking/accepting of that because i was thinking because it's new and i was able to take my time levelling there that i was exploring it which does hold some truth but i see how it's very limited.
yeah, i think i see what you mean.
if there was no levels i could basically go wherever i wanted like in elder scrolls sort of.
although this doesn't have anything to do with the main topic haha... but i appreciate the insight, going to have to take that to heart.
Pretty much this. Games that totally require redoing a toon are ones that are generally very linear to begin with and leveling is most of the content in the game. Take away that, and there is not much left. This is especially true for more "modern" MMOs, as several of the older ones mentioned did not suffer from this problem.Eve skill system is not that different from TSW, to fly one ship there is only x amount of skill you can train to improve your ship abilities, when all these are trained you can get no better than your own skills. Same with TSW, there is only x amount of abilities for Assault Rifle or Sword. Veterans adavantage is is that they will be able to fly more ship or use more weapons, but by focusing on these things you will catch up and have the same skills for battleship. I dont know any game where you can start on same playing field as someone how has played for years in any game.
anyway both games are good imho
exactly how i feel, it really takes me out of the game and having fun to start completely over with a new character to try out new classes.
i'm definitely giving ffxiv:arr another shot!! i hope they're continuing that same system.
Myself i could see more an option of you being able to sub-specc into other classes, such being a knight primarily yet then sub-speccing into a mage for other abilties, all on one character in the game that way you have more options for how you play or use that character. An yet also making it that a pure specc character that does not specc into other classes/speccs would be much stronger, and also gain access to abilities that peeople who sub-specc do not. Though the hard part is how to create enough synergy between the classes that sub-speccing would be just as good/powerful/useful as staying pure-specced. This would give people that like to roll alts that incentive to as which class you take as primary would affect how your character would play fundamentally, while allowing players that like to have just one class/character full open access to largely all of the options of a class with the being able to choose other speccs to augement their choosen primary specc.
For the fact of end-game it is normally seen as the content that is at the fore-front of progresion, and so gives the best gear or rewards. Saddly even without levels you will always haave end-game as there is always going to be seen an area of the game content that is the best, or hardest, and so is seen as end-game content. Alot of this comes from the playerbase, and not the devs as the players will always be looking for what is optimum or on the cutting edge of progression. Exploration, questing, and such thigns really cann't be end-game as normally they are used as a method of getting the players ready to enter into the end-game via exp or gear, while crafting can be end-game in that it normally progresses with end-game yet does fall behind in how rewarding it is compared to raiding or pvp. At most each part of the game (crafting, raiding/instances, pvp, exploration.) can all take it's place as end-game for a period of time, such exploration being end game after new content is cleared an players are searching the world for other hidden content, quests for uncovering hidden truths ro plots, and so forth.
Ah, if you had the ultimate game the OP still wouldn't be bothered to level. I understand you have your game issues so thanks for shoving it down our throats.
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yeah, that's why i would be open to removing levels if other things were changed as well.. because it morphs into a level replacement on certain things.
an example, you can only fight a certain boss if you have a certain requirement... how is that much different than needing to be a certain level to see a new zone?
or obtaining specific loot that creates a gear disparity in which other playaers also try and match that gear level.
it becomes confusing because some people seem to want you to have to work hard to obtain a certain thing, like you shouldn't be able to fight an epic boss unless you worked really hard to get to the point to defeat it, but isn't that sort of the same thing as going through the levels to reach "end game" just in a different way?
or you obtain the epic gear of doom in pvp and have the advantage over others and everyone works to obtain that gear to reach that level, again it seems pretty similar to me... just like you can't go anywhere to explore you can't just pvp or see certain dungeons/bosses, you must first do this before or reach this point or requirement.
it would seem to me if you one was to remove levels alot of stuff, ideals would also have to be changed with it.
as to the other point i see what you mean, although that's making it fairly complicated, i just wanted to make it simple so you can play 1 character always.
but i guess that type of thing could work as well, it's not that far off from the original ffxi system.
They are, with some added improvements like I mentioned. Just having your equipment auto-equip on class change is a very nice change. Will remove the need for multiple macros to do the same thing (not to mention the blinking and how it slowed you down if you were trying to change on the run).
It isn't about the leveling, you still had to level other jobs in XI/XIV, it is about everything else attached to your character in the world. The quest unlocks (for areas etc.), the mount, the bulk of the game which when you (in other MMO's) have to replay it for every job you want to play becomes a real chore. This is why the FF's job system is so superior.
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Aren't these levels by a different name? I mean afterall levels are simply a way of measuring progression and without progression you don't really have a game.
Horizons/Istaria did multiclassing the best ever fwiw
its still around, old graphics, but a great game and great community