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Gamer Concerns/Comments (From Massively)
kryllen
Member UncommonPosts: 27
Now just so you know, this isn't from me, but from the PodCast comments section over at Massively. I just kind of agree with some of his stuff, but feel a forum would be a better place to discuss...so here it is:::
The majority of online gamers that I know today were met through DAoC. I'm sure you have read the countless posts ranking DAoC as the number one all time PVP game. I congratulate on such a stunning and awesome project well done. So many players complained about TOA changing the game for the worse. But in reality, those players missed the whole point. The game needed to expand and evolve. Without TOA, there was no /use2 macro. You couldn't bait a zerg through a gauntlet of speed warps. DAoC was built on RVR as well as PVE. TOA proved that you could improve RVR with time spent in PVE. But now you're telling us that PVE is pointless.
As much as you have been trying to say that you aren't making a game to satisfy the many, CU looks exactly like it. FPS's, arena battles, WAR and Rift's scenarios were forms of PVP to appeal to the masses of ADD kids that couldn't sit long enough to plan, prepare, roam, scout, siege, and defend. I understand that you won't (can't) make DAoC 2, but "Camelot" Unchained. If I'm George Lucas, I don't make a new movie called Star Fights because I just sold Star Wars to Disney.
If you're going to make a new game make it new. Most fans are interested in you, not the name of the title. We believe that you part of the creative force that gave us our love for DAoC. That doesn't mean we want a leaner version of it. RPS has been around forever, although there are very few games that use it. But someone came up with a new version called Dynamite RPS. Innovation makes the industry progress.
Comments
yep. Innovative certainly and those that want RvR should be supporting this, not my cup of tea but one to applaud anyway.
If I understand correctly CU is going to be a Darkfall minus the PvE ,with a much better design in terms of crafting/gathering/housing.
That's innovative enough.
DAoC - RIP
yes because then you have to balance the other aspect in such ways as never before seen in MMOs
DAoC - RIP
So if you take DAoC and remove the RVR is it WoW?
I think you guys are missing the boat on innovation. And that's probably why you've played all the other games because you can't see its failure in the making. To even suggest that removing PVE from a game makes so much sense in an MMORPG is ridiculous. The staple of a role-playing game is the fact that you level up a hero/champ in aim for the end game. But this game has no end game because there's no beginning. If on day 1 you are max level and max level, then all Mark did was /50 everyone. Boom, there's your innovation.
Oh, by the way, I'm naming the game as a spin off my old game that I sold.
Oh, and I'm using the same 3 realms, too (but I'll give them different names).
Oh, and I hate gold sellers.
I think you have a narrow idea about what MMORPG's can be. To say the staple of an RPG is PVE is only showing your own bias and having no imagination that it can be any different. I hated grinding on mobs to 50 just to play against other players.
I like PvP pretty much exclusively. In whatever game I play I just try and level of PvP. I had several characters in WoW I leveled 95% off pvp, that was really hard but fun for me. I did the same thing in WAR (where it was easier and more fun). I have already played PvE/PVP games and cut out the PvE. So this is a game that lets me just do what I've already been doing in other games, except I don't have to go around the system to do it.
Your suggesting PvP is only for max level (I don't agree). Why should I be forced to do something I don't like for months just to get to the part of the game I enjoy the PvP.
Imagine if the prevailing wisdom was you had to PvP to get to max level before you could go kill mobs. You would probably think that sucked. Taht is the way I feel. If you don't like PvP that is fine, lots of people like just PvE, or maybe you even like 50/50 that is fine too. But I don't think there is only one right way to play an MMORPG.
To me, PvE is similar to a movie that you sit down and watch. You're basically at the mercy of the creative skills and genius of the author (and/or Director and/or Actors). It's very RARELY done right (especially before fall when all the Oscar movies come out).
PvP, on the other hand, is a little like the players actually participating in a renaissance festival. There's more actual effort and "keeping you on your toes" aspect of PvP than you could ever expect in safe PvE. I don't think I've ever had my adrenaline pumping in PvE quite like I've had in a good PvP game. It never gets stale as long as there's that back and forth flow and a chance to win. The only downside is if it's way too lopsided, which is where 3-sided vs. 2-sided approach comes into play. Speaking of which, I think it would be pretty cool if there was some built-in DIPLOMACY game mechanic that allowed two weaker realms to gang up on a third.
At any rate, I'm looking forward to a well designed and executed PvP game. And like Mark said, the beauty of an RvR-only game is that you don't have that major distraction of PvE that sucks half the population out of PvP.
But he doesn't want to remove progression? I think he is going to make some progression but on PvP side. That's the same. You can level your character to be even better in PvP. Or am I wrong?
Sounds like it's a lot like DAoC at level 50 - but instead of RAs you get the abilities you would have gotten from level 1-50.
And I don't know about you guys, but most of my friends and guildies I met in MMOs came from the PVE aspect, where things aren't as high strung and life or deathy. Where we could just relax and have a good time.
DAoC - RIP
It sounds to me like you prefer the PvE aspect of games, or at least games that include PvE. This will not be that game, no matter how much you want it to be. Mark has stated quite decisively that this will not change. Maybe you should look for another game.Move along.
/thread
There will, of course, be lots of progression as I've said a number of times and it will all come from RvR. The only real difference between PvE leveling and RvR leveling is that PvE leveling for experienced players tends to be rather predictable, stable and linear while RvR leveling can be quite different. I've also talked about multiple leveling tracks and they will also be part of the game. If anyone thinks that this game will be a /BoostMeBabyBoostMe game, I'm sorry but that's not the direction we are taking CU.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
And that's what we need Mark! Good job! This is innovation. I'm really happy that you are making the game not for everyone but for the 'old school'. I will support your game on kickstarter for sure. I will also try to give as many ideas as I can on the forum and If i get somehow into beta I will try to test the game and let your team know bugs. I love daoc and i'm almost sure this game will be my new home
I dont think shifting the focus from one common aspect found in mmorpgs and moving it to another is innovative in any way shape or form.
RvR is kind of a tired mechanic as it is...its very restrictive on who you can fight and where (even if its everywhere i guess)
RvR has the innate ability to become a large messy battle where what you are doing doesnt matter. You killed 50 people who respawed a 1min run away and are now back in the battle ect.
What this guy is doing is the epitome of whats ailing mmorpgs currently. The idea "lets do something new using extremely old, dated, common, and unispired mechanics" what is needed is truely unique game mechanics. DAOC offerd this. At the time what they did hadnt been done, it was a drastic change of pace from the other types of mmorpgs that offerd questing and raids or dungeon crawling. That is why DOAC is a legend, that is why the DAOC mechanics are now in every single game made, even if its reduced simplified, and tweaked a bit.
Its great he wants to make a game that harkens back to the oldschool way, unfortuately the oldschool way is threaded within every single game made since that era...and any twist, focus shift, or reinvention of said mechanics is still going to be the same game weve been playing since that first generation of game (prior to them all getting mushed into one type of game we now know as the themepark)
Problem with RvR that use to exist will still exist in this game. Choosing the wrong faction (because everyone really just wants an easy win in games like this no matter how hardcore they profess to be) will be the bane of the game. The mechanics of the RvR will never change in this way. This is why i like no factions and having guild based open ended warfare...at least with that theres a meta game involved, and a way for people to ally up against stronger opponents ect. Something you cant do when the game says your forever enemies with the other factions and always friendly with your own.
Just had to comment on this one.
An engine is what runs the car, so claiming PvE is the engine is just laughable. If they removed combat alltogether, then you could make that comparison. In this case you could compare PvE to one of those super fancy sound systems. Ya know, the ones that take up a lot of space in the vehicle. Sure, some people wanna play their "beatz", but some of us would rather dedicate that space to other things that are more important to us. Whether that's more cargo room or something else.
Great! Give up PvE for extra bank space. That sounds real fun!
LOL
You know I am just playing... right? I totally agree with you.
Snip cause im only replying to the quoted part.
ROSE COLORED GLASSES.
DaoC started the PvP for ADD kids. It placed all PvP into one area, funnelled you into it(yeah I know boarderlands). It took away any actual need to plan, prepare, roam, scout...cause YOUR lands were safe, your focus was set for you, onto one small controlled area.
It was the beginning, other games listed merely built on the limitations created by DaoC. And now after actually having a short back and forth with the man, then listening to yesterdays podcast, he has shown he hasnt actually learned much over the last 13 years. In fact, I cannot think of ANY OTHER game designer that has made 3 MMOs that are built on the exact same structure like he wants to do! Closed faction areas, funneled PvP...its mindboggling, no evolution at all. Worse yet, it would seem that DaoC had a great many designers that have the same issue when looking at TESO, a whole lot of people that havent learned knew game design structures.
it doesnt boad well for this games future. Oh wait, he is targetting a small amount of players...so maybe there is a chance that he will succeed in making a game a few people will like. Hey, best way to do something good is to aim low!
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Absolutely, and you are very much correct about the Rose Colored Galsses bit, and sadly that statement seems to apply to a very large chunk of the people who frequent MMORPG.com
If Dark Age of Camelot was such a good PvP game, why is it all but abandoned these days? If UO was the perfect sandbox, why is it on life support now? Etc, Etc.
And the "Well, it's they're just really old games with outdated graphics, so it's no wonder they died off." News flash: WoW is an old game with outdated graphics, and 9 million people still actively sub to it. A game's age is no excuse.
So, why is it, when a developer comes along and creates a game that promises to be nothing more than a stripped down version of DOAC, that everyone and their mother thinks it will change the face of PvP MMORPGs forever? Has everyone gone mental?! It's not like Dark Age of Camelot isn't still around.
To copy a certian youtube series: "I liked Camelot Unchained better when they called it 'Elder Scrolls Online," and I liked that game better when it was called 'Dark Age of Camelot!' "
Tl;Dr If the thousands of WoW clones released over the years all crashed and burned, what makes you think a game that is trying to clone DAoC or UO will fare any better?