No, no, no. Let devs do their job. I mean, sure some feedback is always a positive thing, but developers shouldn't be taking seriously 99% of what players say, because most of our opinions are plain stupid.
What players can do though is to vote with their wallets, and buy/support those games that go in the direction they want.
"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran
well, have to disagree. I think most *do* know what they want, at least in any given moment of time.
"Players don't know what they want" gets taken the wrong way, but it's the simplest way to state it. The short answer is that you are correct in that most do know what they want. The long answer is that they know what they don't want and they offer solutions based on what they think will fix it.
Players are focused on their concerns which are short term. They often don't have the long term interests in mind, They often don't have an understanding of game design, dependencies or how each system in a game impacts each other. Players often aren't aware of the actual cost (time, money, resources) to implement the changes they are interested in, and (as very evident from these forums) they generally have a very skewed view of how important or popular any one particular issue or feature may be.
EVE Online's 'walking in stations' is a great example of that. Talk to the people that want it. They will tell you lots of people want it and that it will bring millions to EVE Online. Talk to the people that don't want it. They will tell you it is a waste of time and that it adds nothing to the game. Both sides swear they are representative of the general sentiment. Dare I even suggest the range of views on sandbox and forced grouping?
This is where things like the DAoC Team leads and the EVE Online Council of Stellar Management come in. They are added channels to help filter the player feedback and help understand what the players really want. I'm going to copy and paste something from an article I had written about a panel about the CSM a while back because I feel it explains the "players don't know what they want" issue.
Jessica [Mulligan] presented a scenario that may seem far fetched, but anyone who has played MMOs for a while can attest is a very real possibility and something to be prepared for. What if several creative and determined individuals started a push to turn all of the ships into Pink Ponies? The [CSM] goes through all the motions, does all the paperwork, and completes all the requested tasks - in the end, they bring forth everything necessary to put in the request to change all ships into Pink Ponies.
Do you tell them “No, you cannot have all ships turned into pink ponies?” This is the spot where I don’t feel the discussion really made the headway it should have, as it became wrapped up in this being the final step - the place where the devs either stamp APPROVED or HELL NO on the paperwork. Bartle presented that to say NO at this point is to paint the whole thing as a facade. To say YES is even worse.
Hilmar tried to briefly explain where things go from there, but he didn’t press the issue. The issue got stuck on “Do you say Yes or do you say No?”
The Pink Ponies are a perfect example of how the Council of Stellar Management will be an asset to the EVE Community. The important information gained from the Council of Stellar Management isn’t so much the offered solution as it is identification of an actual issue and the reasons for it.
If the players want Pink Ponies, the documentation and discussion will show why, because players aren’t asking for pink ponies - they are asking for a concern to be addressed and pink ponies is the best solution that they came up with. Maybe the problem is that players are sick of several years of just rust and grey as the only two ship colors. Maybe they are looking for more levity in the game. Maybe pink ponies are all the rage right now and people simply want them everywhere. By the process of the Council, these concerns and wants are identified and expanded upon. In the event that “all ships need to be pink ponies” turns out to be their solution, the devs can offer alternate solutions to the problem based on why they asked for the particular solution. They’re sick of the grey and rust? Maybe more colorful textures on ships is a viable solution. Maybe ship dyes are a solution. The game lacks levity? Maybe a module that allows you to turn your ship into a pink pony when fitted and activated is the solution. Maybe a ‘pink pony event” where all ships are pink ponies temporarily or some other such nonsense is the solution.
Whatever the case may be, there are issues and problems that the players want resolved. The CSM provides a structured manner in which they can be identified and documented and, as a result, more than likely properly solved. It is system where both players and devs can work together to improve our game world and virtual community, and I really believe it is the next step in productive interaction with a virtual world community.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I remember looking at the suggestion forums for Guild Wars 2 during beta. It absolutely made me cringe, not only do 99% of all forum poster not known have to give proper feedback, but many of their suggestions are unoriginal experiences that have adopted from their previous gaming experiences. Examples of such posts would be "Why can't warriors dual-wield 2 handers" or "Why can't Guardian use axes".
Personally I've found only 87 users that I would take seriously on the Guild Wars 2 forums, consider that number for a moment.
Then use those suggestions and not the drooling idiot's?
No. Listening to the community would be an absolute mess because the community is composed of individual people who each have individual ideas which may or may not fall inline with something that doesn't contradict itself. Let alone the far out silly requests you would be given.
Even in a more structured model where there was a community board that would aggregate and prioritize the community request would be open to corruption/mis-representation.
Keep it simple. Focus on making a quality good game that you would play yourself. The community (who like what you developed) will come and support.
It's not even possible to listen that mcuh to the players because there are always people for and against it. 99% listening to the players would endup into some kind of paradox situation, no?
Anyways, they might should listen more to the reasonable requests instead of the usual winey 'aww its too difficult wäh wäh'
But to find the right way is super difficult as we can see at the actual games ^^
Then use those suggestions and not the drooling idiot's?
That is, oddly enough, the theory grasped by most development teams.
...which leads us back around by the perfection of circular reasoning to the devs being the drooling idiots......
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
It also becomes a question of which majority you listen to. The forums? Forums will always be more negative in general because we as humans tend to be quicker at complaining for things we don't like than talking about things we do. Plus the forum community tends to be a tiny fraction of the actual game community.
For example... if you have a majority on forums calling for a company to create harder raids and dungeons and stop making easier ones, yet when you see the actual game data turns out that a small minority is actually doing the harder raids and dungeons, and the vast majority is doing the easier ones more often.. which one do you listen to?
When community is giving alot of the same feedback on same problem they should use their suggestions as an extra box to make a better solution.
But usually gamers are blinded by what they'd like to see changed and have their need infront of what's best for everyone in the game and can hardly ever see the whole picture because they don't know if it's even possible to do it, so devs are the ones who should listen and then make adjustments that pleases the most people in the game but still doesn't shatter the very foundation of the game.
That's what a successfull mmorpg company does. To blindly listen the fans/community is just a pathway to failure.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
I was playing WoW because i got large scale raids (40 mans) with content that took me months to clear... but each night my group got closer. During the day we would farm for materials for consumables and PvP for the lulz.
Then our gear was useless for PvP, I had a rank 13 priest in the top horde guild on my server. I worked my ass off to get into the guild, worked hard to get my PvP rank (full time raider who specialized in farming rare materials for potions getting rank 13 was pretty hardcore.) We had 14+ hour AV battles, because we WANTED TO WIN, not wanted to farm points for gear.
I LOVED it. I loved every day of it.
They ruined the game for me with each PvP patch. (Yes shamans and palis needed fixing, and Druids needed viable dps builds) but I watched the expansion destroy every major raiding guild on my server.
I came back awhile later and tried to be a casual raider and focus a bit more on PvP..... there was ZERO server pride. I never got a chance to get to know my enemies. Even as a casual in an RP guild I got into top end content, all the mods made it stupid easy and boring. So I quit for good.
TLDR: Trying to please everyone drives away the core group that made the game popular
Originally posted by dmartination If a mmorpg company listend to their community 99% and the devs 1% do you think the game would be a lot better? Or 50 50? I am saying this because every game I play everyone says the company does not listen.
All you have to do is look at the posts on this whole forum. Gamers don't know what the heck they want. As an example, in Rift, Saboteurs were nerfed based on players whining posts on the official forum, when the game was released. Trion listened and nerfed the class to death, making it unplayable. Trion, to their credit does listen but sometimes too much - one needs data not subjective whining from fans and players to make decisions. Also, players don't see the outcome to what they want, only that they want it. Gaming companies have to worry about balance, sales, etc. Players just want to be UBER and that is it.
Also, of you look at many GW2 threads, on this forum, you will see people wanting to remake GW2 into every other game on the planet and not just taking GW2 for what it is. It would be a travesty to do that to GW2.
Companies should listen to their customers as a whole but they shouldn't listen to individual customers. They should reach out to the community to test reactions to what they are doing. The problem with listening to your customers too closely is most gamers really have no idea what they really want and will ask for some things that sound great but are either not practical or just wont make for good game play. Customers(Gamers) for the most part have no clue what it takes to put a single feature into a game and make it fun.
Who do they listen to within the community. The opinions are as varied as other forums. If they only listen to one faction, they will alienate another faction. Unforunately, it isn't that simple of saying 'If they listen to their community.'
I was playing WoW because i got large scale raids (40 mans) with content that took me months to clear... but each night my group got closer. During the day we would farm for materials for consumables and PvP for the lulz.
Then our gear was useless for PvP, I had a rank 13 priest in the top horde guild on my server. I worked my ass off to get into the guild, worked hard to get my PvP rank (full time raider who specialized in farming rare materials for potions getting rank 13 was pretty hardcore.) We had 14+ hour AV battles, because we WANTED TO WIN, not wanted to farm points for gear.
I LOVED it. I loved every day of it.
They ruined the game for me with each PvP patch. (Yes shamans and palis needed fixing, and Druids needed viable dps builds) but I watched the expansion destroy every major raiding guild on my server.
I came back awhile later and tried to be a casual raider and focus a bit more on PvP..... there was ZERO server pride. I never got a chance to get to know my enemies. Even as a casual in an RP guild I got into top end content, all the mods made it stupid easy and boring. So I quit for good.
TLDR: Trying to please everyone drives away the core group that made the game popular
So in other words you lost you epeen and got upset? Many will say that the change is a good thing as it allowed many to experiance all the content and not just you elitist groups and made the game a 2nd job instead of an actual game. There is still challenging content for those that desire it or are in the hardcore guilds.
I say good riddance to the vanilla sytle of raiding.
Back to topic, the vast majority just want to be the OP class and beat every class or suggest ideals that just flabbergasp me (like early on the Neverwinter forums where people who clearly never played D&D and am highly doubtful they even know what the acrynom D&D stands for suggesting ideals straight up copied from WoW). I say Devs need follow their vision and stick to their vision. If some players suggest ideals that are like "hey you know what... thats really a great ideal" and they incorperate it then great, but the vast majority of players just QQ that they got beat or some class did something better or just spewing utter garbage on the forums. It's a two edged sword as I see it.
I was playing WoW because i got large scale raids (40 mans) with content that took me months to clear... but each night my group got closer. During the day we would farm for materials for consumables and PvP for the lulz.
Then our gear was useless for PvP, I had a rank 13 priest in the top horde guild on my server. I worked my ass off to get into the guild, worked hard to get my PvP rank (full time raider who specialized in farming rare materials for potions getting rank 13 was pretty hardcore.) We had 14+ hour AV battles, because we WANTED TO WIN, not wanted to farm points for gear.
I LOVED it. I loved every day of it.
They ruined the game for me with each PvP patch. (Yes shamans and palis needed fixing, and Druids needed viable dps builds) but I watched the expansion destroy every major raiding guild on my server.
I came back awhile later and tried to be a casual raider and focus a bit more on PvP..... there was ZERO server pride. I never got a chance to get to know my enemies. Even as a casual in an RP guild I got into top end content, all the mods made it stupid easy and boring. So I quit for good.
TLDR: Trying to please everyone drives away the core group that made the game popular
Yet it still has 9 million players.
Wait, dont all other MMOs combined not have that? So much for not listening to players and making your own game. Guess that core group isnt making another game popular... so perhaps your core group is just a misconception you have. Server pride... are you serious? You are PROUD to be on a server? What the hell did I just read. Someone tell me I read it wrong.
Again, so many here dont understand the concept of the 99% and what it stands for, its disgusting. Goes to show that all the efforts to teach have fallen very short.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
I was playing WoW because i got large scale raids (40 mans) with content that took me months to clear... but each night my group got closer. During the day we would farm for materials for consumables and PvP for the lulz.
Then our gear was useless for PvP, I had a rank 13 priest in the top horde guild on my server. I worked my ass off to get into the guild, worked hard to get my PvP rank (full time raider who specialized in farming rare materials for potions getting rank 13 was pretty hardcore.) We had 14+ hour AV battles, because we WANTED TO WIN, not wanted to farm points for gear.
I LOVED it. I loved every day of it.
They ruined the game for me with each PvP patch. (Yes shamans and palis needed fixing, and Druids needed viable dps builds) but I watched the expansion destroy every major raiding guild on my server.
I came back awhile later and tried to be a casual raider and focus a bit more on PvP..... there was ZERO server pride. I never got a chance to get to know my enemies. Even as a casual in an RP guild I got into top end content, all the mods made it stupid easy and boring. So I quit for good.
TLDR: Trying to please everyone drives away the core group that made the game popular
Yet it still has 9 million players.
Wait, dont all other MMOs combined not have that? So much for not listening to players and making your own game. Guess that core group isnt making another game popular... so perhaps your core group is just a misconception you have. Server pride... are you serious? You are PROUD to be on a server? What the hell did I just read. Someone tell me I read it wrong.
Again, so many here dont understand the concept of the 99% and what it stands for, its disgusting. Goes to show that all the efforts to teach have fallen very short.
You didn't read it wrong and he had very valid points. I miss having rivals and when server selection mattered. The homoginization of WoW classes and PvP is what eventually drove me away as well, even if it took till WOTLK for me to be displeased completely.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
You didn't read it wrong and he had very valid points. I miss having rivals and when server selection mattered. The homoginization of WoW classes and PvP is what eventually drove me away as well, even if it took till WOTLK for me to be displeased completely.
Well. that makes two of you.
Given the (quite large) number of ex-wow players on this site, who all expressed many-and-various reasons for quitting... I'd be much more likely to speculate that:
a) a player begins to tire of WoW b) a player finds something to get upset over (often, but not exclusively, by reading forums) c) a player adopts whatever-it-is as a good enough Cause to hate the game, or the devs, or Bobby Kotick, or whatev.
Entire process not too dissimilar to expressions of company-directed loathing as seen in [pick any title, mmorpg is loaded with grudges].
If the next result is recidivism (d) player goes back to WoW, we can conclude the adopted Cause (c) wasn't really Black enough to maintain a good Hate level.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Simply put around 90% of the games the publisher hears from are the "locusts". The level cap in a week or less so I can complain that there's nothing to do, crowd. Those people, who have no idea that there even is a main story and sometimes side stories; aren't the best people to be deciding what changes should be made to any game. "It's been two weeks since level cap was raised, why is there no new (insert whatever here)?" pfft
Given the (quite large) number of ex-wow players on this site, who all expressed many-and-various reasons for quitting... I'd be much more likely to speculate that:
a) a player begins to tire of WoW b) a player finds something to get upset over (often, but not exclusively, by reading forums) c) a player adopts whatever-it-is as a good enough Cause to hate the game, or the devs, or Bobby Kotick, or whatev.
Entire process not too dissimilar to expressions of company-directed loathing as seen in [pick any title, mmorpg is loaded with grudges].
If the next result is recidivism (d) player goes back to WoW, we can conclude the adopted Cause (c) wasn't really Black enough to maintain a good Hate level.
Well I for one quit WoW because I did not like the introduction of Flying Mounts also the people I usually grouped and played with joined guilds to do hardcore raiding and I did not want to do that at the time.
Well I went to EQ2, ultimately became a hardcore raider again and then SOE introduced flying mounts. So that worked out for me. Certainly not Blizzard's fault.
It is hard to argue with the numbers though, WoW 9 million all other games ???, well sort of speaks volumes doesnt it.
I would be trying WoW again now except for some strange reason the installer fails to wright to my hard disk. Error code BLZPTS00009.
EQ1 is a classic case of what listening to the community can do.
The PoK stones were a direct result of player feedback. And in fact the vast majority of the population either liked them or were indifferent.
But a small percentage whine loudly about them and how they ruined eq.
So you are damned if you do, damned if you dont.
Its when you go make changes that no one tequested that things get tricky.
Take Rift, they recently removed falling damage. There wasnt a public outcry to this, it came out of nowhere. Most like or are indifferent to the change, but a loud portion of people hate it. I think the net result is negative, because the added happiness is minimal (since it wasnt a request) while the negativity is large because some feel it is a step towards dumbing down the game. Mildly pleasing part of the customers isnt worth pissing off another part.
I hate about 99% of the talking points that come out of these forums so hell no. Let the Devs do their job, you either play or not or quit when they change something you disagree with like I did with WoW. Played for 6 years but the dumbing down of the talents and removal of the proposed Archeology trait system in Cata led me to abondon ship.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by dmartination If a mmorpg company listend to their community 99% and the devs 1% do you think the game would be a lot better? Or 50 50? I am saying this because every game I play everyone says the company does not listen.
Short answer for me is no - Not to the ratios that you're suggesting.
A) Once a company goes down that path of meeting the demands a precident is set. If they then stop caving in to the demands the community has become acustomed to getting they will see this negatively and start walking. I'ts like opening a floodgate.
The game can easily lose its sense of identity and purpose to what was originally intended. It becomes just another cookie cutter MMO and people lose interest quickly in this when they have seen/played it before.
I'm not saying that a company should never listen. There are always suggestions from the community that are valid and could improve the gaming experience without changing its feel, and it's the company's responsibility to listen and determine what's a fair request and what's not.
A good company I'm sure would go off a checklist when contemplating implimenting a new idea...Does it enhance the gameplay, does it change gameplay too much, could this have a negtive effect on our brand etc. If it ticks all or most of the boxes then it would then be discussed further.
Impossible. Look at any game and any post. Almost all of the suggestions are hated by other players. Very few suggestions have better than 80% acceptance. So, in the end they would change something, then a contradicting suggestion would change that... and before you know it the game does not work.
Comments
No, no, no. Let devs do their job. I mean, sure some feedback is always a positive thing, but developers shouldn't be taking seriously 99% of what players say, because most of our opinions are plain stupid.
What players can do though is to vote with their wallets, and buy/support those games that go in the direction they want.
"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran
"Players don't know what they want" gets taken the wrong way, but it's the simplest way to state it. The short answer is that you are correct in that most do know what they want. The long answer is that they know what they don't want and they offer solutions based on what they think will fix it.
Players are focused on their concerns which are short term. They often don't have the long term interests in mind, They often don't have an understanding of game design, dependencies or how each system in a game impacts each other. Players often aren't aware of the actual cost (time, money, resources) to implement the changes they are interested in, and (as very evident from these forums) they generally have a very skewed view of how important or popular any one particular issue or feature may be.
EVE Online's 'walking in stations' is a great example of that. Talk to the people that want it. They will tell you lots of people want it and that it will bring millions to EVE Online. Talk to the people that don't want it. They will tell you it is a waste of time and that it adds nothing to the game. Both sides swear they are representative of the general sentiment. Dare I even suggest the range of views on sandbox and forced grouping?
This is where things like the DAoC Team leads and the EVE Online Council of Stellar Management come in. They are added channels to help filter the player feedback and help understand what the players really want. I'm going to copy and paste something from an article I had written about a panel about the CSM a while back because I feel it explains the "players don't know what they want" issue.
Jessica [Mulligan] presented a scenario that may seem far fetched, but anyone who has played MMOs for a while can attest is a very real possibility and something to be prepared for. What if several creative and determined individuals started a push to turn all of the ships into Pink Ponies? The [CSM] goes through all the motions, does all the paperwork, and completes all the requested tasks - in the end, they bring forth everything necessary to put in the request to change all ships into Pink Ponies.
Do you tell them “No, you cannot have all ships turned into pink ponies?” This is the spot where I don’t feel the discussion really made the headway it should have, as it became wrapped up in this being the final step - the place where the devs either stamp APPROVED or HELL NO on the paperwork. Bartle presented that to say NO at this point is to paint the whole thing as a facade. To say YES is even worse.
Hilmar tried to briefly explain where things go from there, but he didn’t press the issue. The issue got stuck on “Do you say Yes or do you say No?”
The Pink Ponies are a perfect example of how the Council of Stellar Management will be an asset to the EVE Community. The important information gained from the Council of Stellar Management isn’t so much the offered solution as it is identification of an actual issue and the reasons for it.
If the players want Pink Ponies, the documentation and discussion will show why, because players aren’t asking for pink ponies - they are asking for a concern to be addressed and pink ponies is the best solution that they came up with. Maybe the problem is that players are sick of several years of just rust and grey as the only two ship colors. Maybe they are looking for more levity in the game. Maybe pink ponies are all the rage right now and people simply want them everywhere. By the process of the Council, these concerns and wants are identified and expanded upon. In the event that “all ships need to be pink ponies” turns out to be their solution, the devs can offer alternate solutions to the problem based on why they asked for the particular solution. They’re sick of the grey and rust? Maybe more colorful textures on ships is a viable solution. Maybe ship dyes are a solution. The game lacks levity? Maybe a module that allows you to turn your ship into a pink pony when fitted and activated is the solution. Maybe a ‘pink pony event” where all ships are pink ponies temporarily or some other such nonsense is the solution.
Whatever the case may be, there are issues and problems that the players want resolved. The CSM provides a structured manner in which they can be identified and documented and, as a result, more than likely properly solved. It is system where both players and devs can work together to improve our game world and virtual community, and I really believe it is the next step in productive interaction with a virtual world community.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Then use those suggestions and not the drooling idiot's?
No. Listening to the community would be an absolute mess because the community is composed of individual people who each have individual ideas which may or may not fall inline with something that doesn't contradict itself. Let alone the far out silly requests you would be given.
Even in a more structured model where there was a community board that would aggregate and prioritize the community request would be open to corruption/mis-representation.
Keep it simple. Focus on making a quality good game that you would play yourself. The community (who like what you developed) will come and support.
It's not even possible to listen that mcuh to the players because there are always people for and against it. 99% listening to the players would endup into some kind of paradox situation, no?
Anyways, they might should listen more to the reasonable requests instead of the usual winey 'aww its too difficult wäh wäh'
But to find the right way is super difficult as we can see at the actual games ^^
just a blog
That is, oddly enough, the theory grasped by most development teams.
...which leads us back around by the perfection of circular reasoning to the devs being the drooling idiots......
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
It also becomes a question of which majority you listen to. The forums? Forums will always be more negative in general because we as humans tend to be quicker at complaining for things we don't like than talking about things we do. Plus the forum community tends to be a tiny fraction of the actual game community.
For example... if you have a majority on forums calling for a company to create harder raids and dungeons and stop making easier ones, yet when you see the actual game data turns out that a small minority is actually doing the harder raids and dungeons, and the vast majority is doing the easier ones more often.. which one do you listen to?
What can men do against such reckless hate?
When community is giving alot of the same feedback on same problem they should use their suggestions as an extra box to make a better solution.
But usually gamers are blinded by what they'd like to see changed and have their need infront of what's best for everyone in the game and can hardly ever see the whole picture because they don't know if it's even possible to do it, so devs are the ones who should listen and then make adjustments that pleases the most people in the game but still doesn't shatter the very foundation of the game.
That's what a successfull mmorpg company does. To blindly listen the fans/community is just a pathway to failure.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
WoW listened to the community
I quit.
I was playing WoW because i got large scale raids (40 mans) with content that took me months to clear... but each night my group got closer. During the day we would farm for materials for consumables and PvP for the lulz.
Then our gear was useless for PvP, I had a rank 13 priest in the top horde guild on my server. I worked my ass off to get into the guild, worked hard to get my PvP rank (full time raider who specialized in farming rare materials for potions getting rank 13 was pretty hardcore.) We had 14+ hour AV battles, because we WANTED TO WIN, not wanted to farm points for gear.
I LOVED it. I loved every day of it.
They ruined the game for me with each PvP patch. (Yes shamans and palis needed fixing, and Druids needed viable dps builds) but I watched the expansion destroy every major raiding guild on my server.
I came back awhile later and tried to be a casual raider and focus a bit more on PvP..... there was ZERO server pride. I never got a chance to get to know my enemies. Even as a casual in an RP guild I got into top end content, all the mods made it stupid easy and boring. So I quit for good.
TLDR: Trying to please everyone drives away the core group that made the game popular
All you have to do is look at the posts on this whole forum. Gamers don't know what the heck they want. As an example, in Rift, Saboteurs were nerfed based on players whining posts on the official forum, when the game was released. Trion listened and nerfed the class to death, making it unplayable. Trion, to their credit does listen but sometimes too much - one needs data not subjective whining from fans and players to make decisions. Also, players don't see the outcome to what they want, only that they want it. Gaming companies have to worry about balance, sales, etc. Players just want to be UBER and that is it.
Also, of you look at many GW2 threads, on this forum, you will see people wanting to remake GW2 into every other game on the planet and not just taking GW2 for what it is. It would be a travesty to do that to GW2.
Companies should listen to their customers as a whole but they shouldn't listen to individual customers. They should reach out to the community to test reactions to what they are doing. The problem with listening to your customers too closely is most gamers really have no idea what they really want and will ask for some things that sound great but are either not practical or just wont make for good game play. Customers(Gamers) for the most part have no clue what it takes to put a single feature into a game and make it fun.
Bren
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I self identify as a monkey.
So in other words you lost you epeen and got upset? Many will say that the change is a good thing as it allowed many to experiance all the content and not just you elitist groups and made the game a 2nd job instead of an actual game. There is still challenging content for those that desire it or are in the hardcore guilds.
I say good riddance to the vanilla sytle of raiding.
Back to topic, the vast majority just want to be the OP class and beat every class or suggest ideals that just flabbergasp me (like early on the Neverwinter forums where people who clearly never played D&D and am highly doubtful they even know what the acrynom D&D stands for suggesting ideals straight up copied from WoW). I say Devs need follow their vision and stick to their vision. If some players suggest ideals that are like "hey you know what... thats really a great ideal" and they incorperate it then great, but the vast majority of players just QQ that they got beat or some class did something better or just spewing utter garbage on the forums. It's a two edged sword as I see it.
Yet it still has 9 million players.
Wait, dont all other MMOs combined not have that? So much for not listening to players and making your own game. Guess that core group isnt making another game popular... so perhaps your core group is just a misconception you have. Server pride... are you serious? You are PROUD to be on a server? What the hell did I just read. Someone tell me I read it wrong.
Again, so many here dont understand the concept of the 99% and what it stands for, its disgusting. Goes to show that all the efforts to teach have fallen very short.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
You didn't read it wrong and he had very valid points. I miss having rivals and when server selection mattered. The homoginization of WoW classes and PvP is what eventually drove me away as well, even if it took till WOTLK for me to be displeased completely.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Well. that makes two of you.
Given the (quite large) number of ex-wow players on this site, who all expressed many-and-various reasons for quitting... I'd be much more likely to speculate that:
a) a player begins to tire of WoW
b) a player finds something to get upset over (often, but not exclusively, by reading forums)
c) a player adopts whatever-it-is as a good enough Cause to hate the game, or the devs, or Bobby Kotick, or whatev.
Entire process not too dissimilar to expressions of company-directed loathing as seen in [pick any title, mmorpg is loaded with grudges].
If the next result is recidivism (d) player goes back to WoW, we can conclude the adopted Cause (c) wasn't really Black enough to maintain a good Hate level.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
No
Simply put around 90% of the games the publisher hears from are the "locusts". The level cap in a week or less so I can complain that there's nothing to do, crowd. Those people, who have no idea that there even is a main story and sometimes side stories; aren't the best people to be deciding what changes should be made to any game. "It's been two weeks since level cap was raised, why is there no new (insert whatever here)?" pfft
Just considering these two threads......(and there are a lot more like these)
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/317478/Sandbox-vs-Themepark-Discussion-Thread.html
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/263753/The-Group-Play-vs-Solo-Play-in-an-MMO-Thread.html
Explain how it would even be possible.
Well I for one quit WoW because I did not like the introduction of Flying Mounts also the people I usually grouped and played with joined guilds to do hardcore raiding and I did not want to do that at the time.
Well I went to EQ2, ultimately became a hardcore raider again and then SOE introduced flying mounts. So that worked out for me. Certainly not Blizzard's fault.
It is hard to argue with the numbers though, WoW 9 million all other games ???, well sort of speaks volumes doesnt it.
I would be trying WoW again now except for some strange reason the installer fails to wright to my hard disk. Error code BLZPTS00009.
EQ1 is a classic case of what listening to the community can do.
The PoK stones were a direct result of player feedback. And in fact the vast majority of the population either liked them or were indifferent.
But a small percentage whine loudly about them and how they ruined eq.
So you are damned if you do, damned if you dont.
Its when you go make changes that no one tequested that things get tricky.
Take Rift, they recently removed falling damage. There wasnt a public outcry to this, it came out of nowhere. Most like or are indifferent to the change, but a loud portion of people hate it. I think the net result is negative, because the added happiness is minimal (since it wasnt a request) while the negativity is large because some feel it is a step towards dumbing down the game. Mildly pleasing part of the customers isnt worth pissing off another part.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Short answer for me is no - Not to the ratios that you're suggesting.
A) Once a company goes down that path of meeting the demands a precident is set. If they then stop caving in to the demands the community has become acustomed to getting they will see this negatively and start walking. I'ts like opening a floodgate.
I'm not saying that a company should never listen. There are always suggestions from the community that are valid and could improve the gaming experience without changing its feel, and it's the company's responsibility to listen and determine what's a fair request and what's not.
A good company I'm sure would go off a checklist when contemplating implimenting a new idea...Does it enhance the gameplay, does it change gameplay too much, could this have a negtive effect on our brand etc. If it ticks all or most of the boxes then it would then be discussed further.
Rhino.
Impossible. Look at any game and any post. Almost all of the suggestions are hated by other players. Very few suggestions have better than 80% acceptance. So, in the end they would change something, then a contradicting suggestion would change that... and before you know it the game does not work.
So no, never, impossible.