I wouldn't necessarily push collision detection away outright simply because we don't know what game engine they'll pick or any of the fundamental core mechanics within the game. It's too early to say absolute yes or no.
There's significant benefit in using a CD system, but there's also significant disadvantages; until the game is in a vertical slice stage, it's too early.
My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.
I'd have to say no for the most part other then maybe a bump on your screen when you pass another player, similiar to EQ 1. When you go full retard on the collision it just makes the game far less enjoyable and from past examples is very clunky and poorly done.
Nothing quite like pulling on the 'ol shield to defend your fort against a slightly larger force, and then watching them right through you to their objective.
Only if the technology can support it now. If it can't, then the game will be a mess.
GW2 intended to have it, but they took it out because of technical problems. I can only imagine though, if it works. Zergs wouldn't be as effective, especially trying to rush through seige doors. Running behind another player so they get hit by a projectile aimed at you. You have more chances against a larger force because they can't just run through each other to get at and surround you. Then again, if you allow yourself to be surround, escape is harder.
I am not opposed to having CD in this game, but what of the larger races? Will one side have a race such as trolls which only take 1 or 2 people to completely block a passageway/doorway/etc? Would all the hitboxes be equal or would they scale based on character size. Can I jump over a small race for example the Lurikeens and Dwarves from DAoC?
Yes if they can implement it right and it works for enemies and allies alike. Perhaps smaller collision range for allies but it has to be there.
And to all those saying CD was bad in WAR... Yes, but the game would have been worse without it... And holy shit imagine that game being worse! =D Still managed to enjoy the fuck out of the RvR though, crazy game.
Only if the technology can support it now. If it can't, then the game will be a mess.
GW2 intended to have it, but they took it out because of technical problems. I can only imagine though, if it works. Zergs wouldn't be as effective, especially trying to rush through seige doors. Running behind another player so they get hit by a projectile aimed at you. You have more chances against a larger force because they can't just run through each other to get at and surround you. Then again, if you allow yourself to be surround, escape is harder.
Ah, the possibilities.
Yeah, GW2's culling issues are also being a major pain to resolve; ANet is now at the point where they will be turning off culling completely in a future patch.
I don't think anyone who supports CD wants it if the engine simply can't handle it. But, we are talking about something to strive for and make happen if at all possible. Adding these things like collision detection, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.
Those who tread with ill intent Beneath our sacred firmament, Whether of Hammer or of Tree, Albion's might shall strike at thee!
Originally posted by dynamicipftw In theory it sounds great. In practice it just doesn't work. Maybe in 30-40 years when we have matrix-style full virtual reality.
Piffle!
Games have had collision detection since video gaming began, what's at issue is how that filtering is applied and tweaked for the specific game.
Collision detection is not a new concept and yet at the moment its being over hyped as a feature in this year's upcoming MMO releases. The reason for this is that both Warhammer and Age of Conan are more PvP oriented then traditional MMOs have been in the past. In PvE oriented games the ability for virtual objects to recognize physical boundaries is interesting but doesn't really have a huge impact on game play. This changes when players are actually fighting each other since there are interesting ways to exploit the lack of collision of detection to avoid taking damage from spells.
MMOs like World of Warcraft are always going to have their PvP game crippled by not having collision detection. Melee classes are amoung the most popular and they can use line of sight and a lack of collision detection to take advatage of casters. This can be seen in how poorly casters with long casting spells perform in the arenas. Targets can simply step inside of a player right before the spell goes off to avoid its effects. This tactic is less effective in open world fighting where escape is an option but it's always going to be prevalent in environments like the arenas. -Butting Heads: Collision Detection in MMOs
Those who tread with ill intent Beneath our sacred firmament, Whether of Hammer or of Tree, Albion's might shall strike at thee!
I can see the problems on both sides of the issue.
-No CD means masses of enemies running through any sort of defense that can be set up and really making it a numbers game, which no one wants. Additionally, it allows for LoS exploits which no one wants, either.
-Bad CD makes it a lag fest and makes large scale battles unbearable for most players, especially those without AoE.
-Even good CD can be really frustrating if a few heavy tanks with a few dedicated healers can completely block a passage from an entire army. (Imagine what the milegates would have been like with CD!)
The bottom line is this: If there is going to be CD, the engine MUST be able to handle it without creating too much lag for players. AND, the Tank/Healer dynamic must allow for a blockade to be penetrable at some point.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
I can see the problems on both sides of the issue.
-No CD means masses of enemies running through any sort of defense that can be set up and really making it a numbers game, which no one wants. Additionally, it allows for LoS exploits which no one wants, either.
-Bad CD makes it a lag fest and makes large scale battles unbearable for most players, especially those without AoE.
-Even good CD can be really frustrating if a few heavy tanks with a few dedicated healers can completely block a passage from an entire army. (Imagine what the milegates would have been like with CD!)
The bottom line is this: If there is going to be CD, the engine MUST be able to handle it without creating too much lag for players. AND, the Tank/Healer dynamic must allow for a blockade to be penetrable at some point.
Awesome points, but let me refute a minor point you made on the con side of your post:
(Imagine what the milegates would have been like with CD!
If the Mile Gates and walls were destructible, meaning able to be breached with siege or climbing ropes/ssiege ladders, I don't think it would be an issue at all.
The whole point of attacking a defended fortified position is in the breaching of the defense by attacking the weaker points not the strongest most defended points. If the game allows players to do this, many of the concerns of having 5 players blocking a gateway become non issues.
Those who tread with ill intent Beneath our sacred firmament, Whether of Hammer or of Tree, Albion's might shall strike at thee!
You don't need CD to fix the issue of well timed runthroughs disrupting spells. It's easy to code around that as you can see is most of the modern mmos. Melee positionals, well that's a different story..... it's hard to say how things will go from daoc because strafe was so heavily penalized in that game for melee.
Originally posted by Odaman You don't need CD to fix the issue of well timed runthroughs disrupting spells. It's easy to code around that as you can see is most of the modern mmos. Melee positionals, well that's a different story..... it's hard to say how things will go from daoc because strafe was so heavily penalized in that game for melee.
Positionals go hand in hand with collsion detection, not sure why someone would want to have one and not the other.
Those who tread with ill intent Beneath our sacred firmament, Whether of Hammer or of Tree, Albion's might shall strike at thee!
Collision Detection is not needed since it wasn't needed in the original DAoC. In my opinion, I would prefer the Crowd Control approach instead for a PvP focused game. Collision Detection while more realistic just isn't fleshed out yet in MMO's. Sure EQ had it but EQ was a PvE focused game. Last thing I want to see is an impenetrable wall of tanks with an army of healers behind them guarding fortress gates. PS and PS2 have CD as well and let me tell you, it's more annoying then it is fun. Especially with people grief blocking you inside a building. So to solve that, you'ld need to implement friendly damage, just like PS and PS2 have and now you have a griefers paradise.
Originally posted by Odaman You don't need CD to fix the issue of well timed runthroughs disrupting spells. It's easy to code around that as you can see is most of the modern mmos. Melee positionals, well that's a different story..... it's hard to say how things will go from daoc because strafe was so heavily penalized in that game for melee.
Positionals go hand in hand with collsion detection, not sure why someone would want to have one and not the other.
Why? They are completely unrelated. What you're saying makes no sense.
Originally posted by Odaman You don't need CD to fix the issue of well timed runthroughs disrupting spells. It's easy to code around that as you can see is most of the modern mmos. Melee positionals, well that's a different story..... it's hard to say how things will go from daoc because strafe was so heavily penalized in that game for melee.
Positionals go hand in hand with collsion detection, not sure why someone would want to have one and not the other.
Why? They are completely unrelated. What you're saying makes no sense.
Positionals are based on your character's position relative to his target, that is precisely what CD is about.
Walking through one's target completely invalidates the basic underpinning of having positionals, cheapens it entirely.
I'd prefer a game that does not chiefly rely on simplistic LOS methods for success, why not fill out all the dimensions and let the player exist in a world that is strategically meaningful every step of the way?
Those who tread with ill intent Beneath our sacred firmament, Whether of Hammer or of Tree, Albion's might shall strike at thee!
Originally posted by Odaman You don't need CD to fix the issue of well timed runthroughs disrupting spells. It's easy to code around that as you can see is most of the modern mmos. Melee positionals, well that's a different story..... it's hard to say how things will go from daoc because strafe was so heavily penalized in that game for melee.
Positionals go hand in hand with collsion detection, not sure why someone would want to have one and not the other.
Why? They are completely unrelated. What you're saying makes no sense.
Because if you can stand inside the geometry of another player, every positional attack becomes either impossible or always possible... both of which are stupid.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
Originally posted by Odaman You don't need CD to fix the issue of well timed runthroughs disrupting spells. It's easy to code around that as you can see is most of the modern mmos. Melee positionals, well that's a different story..... it's hard to say how things will go from daoc because strafe was so heavily penalized in that game for melee.
Positionals go hand in hand with collsion detection, not sure why someone would want to have one and not the other.
Why? They are completely unrelated. What you're saying makes no sense.
Positionals are based on your character's position relative to his target, that is precisely what CD is about.
Walking through one's target completely invalidates the basic underpinning of having positionals, cheapens it entirely.
I'd prefer a game that does not chiefly rely on simplistic LOS methods for success, why not fill out all the dimensions and let the player exist in a world that is strategically meaningful every step of the way?
That is completely subjective. I feel that CD cheapens the combat since it turns my enemy into a cylinder or a box.
DAoC's combat is SO much better than WAR's, and not having CD is one of the reasons.
Originally posted by Odaman You don't need CD to fix the issue of well timed runthroughs disrupting spells. It's easy to code around that as you can see is most of the modern mmos. Melee positionals, well that's a different story..... it's hard to say how things will go from daoc because strafe was so heavily penalized in that game for melee.
Positionals go hand in hand with collsion detection, not sure why someone would want to have one and not the other.
Why? They are completely unrelated. What you're saying makes no sense.
Because if you can stand inside the geometry of another player, every positional attack becomes either impossible or always possible... both of which are stupid.
Originally posted by Odaman You don't need CD to fix the issue of well timed runthroughs disrupting spells. It's easy to code around that as you can see is most of the modern mmos. Melee positionals, well that's a different story..... it's hard to say how things will go from daoc because strafe was so heavily penalized in that game for melee.
Positionals go hand in hand with collsion detection, not sure why someone would want to have one and not the other.
Why? They are completely unrelated. What you're saying makes no sense.
Because if you can stand inside the geometry of another player, every positional attack becomes either impossible or always possible... both of which are stupid.
This is where player skill comes into play.
No, it's where 50 players standing in a single square foot of game real estate comes into play.
Those who tread with ill intent Beneath our sacred firmament, Whether of Hammer or of Tree, Albion's might shall strike at thee!
Positionals go hand in hand with collsion detection, not sure why someone would want to have one and not the other.
Why? They are completely unrelated. What you're saying makes no sense.
Because if you can stand inside the geometry of another player, every positional attack becomes either impossible or always possible... both of which are stupid.
This is where player skill comes into play.
I really wish everyone who plays the "player skill" card would realize how silly they sound.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
Originally posted by Odaman You don't need CD to fix the issue of well timed runthroughs disrupting spells. It's easy to code around that as you can see is most of the modern mmos. Melee positionals, well that's a different story..... it's hard to say how things will go from daoc because strafe was so heavily penalized in that game for melee.
Positionals go hand in hand with collsion detection, not sure why someone would want to have one and not the other.
Why? They are completely unrelated. What you're saying makes no sense.
Because if you can stand inside the geometry of another player, every positional attack becomes either impossible or always possible... both of which are stupid.
/face or /stick......that's a big reason no CD wasnt a big deal in DAoC
Positionals go hand in hand with collsion detection, not sure why someone would want to have one and not the other.
Why? They are completely unrelated. What you're saying makes no sense.
Because if you can stand inside the geometry of another player, every positional attack becomes either impossible or always possible... both of which are stupid.
This is where player skill comes into play.
I really wish everyone who plays the "player skill" card would realize how silly they sound.
LOL
Poster A: But having no fall damage is where player skill comes into play!
Poster B:Wat! The players are jumping over the cliff and escaping, let's add fall damage!
Poster A: No, that's player skilllz!
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Those who tread with ill intent Beneath our sacred firmament, Whether of Hammer or of Tree, Albion's might shall strike at thee!
Comments
CONSERVE THE OLD WAYS, NO ROOM FOR NEW THOUGHT!
I wouldn't necessarily push collision detection away outright simply because we don't know what game engine they'll pick or any of the fundamental core mechanics within the game. It's too early to say absolute yes or no.
There's significant benefit in using a CD system, but there's also significant disadvantages; until the game is in a vertical slice stage, it's too early.
Nothing quite like pulling on the 'ol shield to defend your fort against a slightly larger force, and then watching them right through you to their objective.
Uhg.
Only if the technology can support it now. If it can't, then the game will be a mess.
GW2 intended to have it, but they took it out because of technical problems. I can only imagine though, if it works. Zergs wouldn't be as effective, especially trying to rush through seige doors. Running behind another player so they get hit by a projectile aimed at you. You have more chances against a larger force because they can't just run through each other to get at and surround you. Then again, if you allow yourself to be surround, escape is harder.
Ah, the possibilities.
TSW - Daemon Server
Waiting on Camelot Unchained!
Yes if they can implement it right and it works for enemies and allies alike. Perhaps smaller collision range for allies but it has to be there.
And to all those saying CD was bad in WAR... Yes, but the game would have been worse without it... And holy shit imagine that game being worse! =D Still managed to enjoy the fuck out of the RvR though, crazy game.
Yeah, GW2's culling issues are also being a major pain to resolve; ANet is now at the point where they will be turning off culling completely in a future patch.
I don't think anyone who supports CD wants it if the engine simply can't handle it. But, we are talking about something to strive for and make happen if at all possible. Adding these things like collision detection, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.
Those who tread with ill intent
Beneath our sacred firmament,
Whether of Hammer or of Tree,
Albion's might shall strike at thee!
I want it.
But I think server performence is even more important.
People with not so good latency are going to see "rubberbanding",
unless they can come up with a clever way impliment it.
Either way, presents challenges and obsticals that the team is going to have to overcome.
Piffle!
Games have had collision detection since video gaming began, what's at issue is how that filtering is applied and tweaked for the specific game.
Collision detection is not a new concept and yet at the moment its being over hyped as a feature in this year's upcoming MMO releases. The reason for this is that both Warhammer and Age of Conan are more PvP oriented then traditional MMOs have been in the past. In PvE oriented games the ability for virtual objects to recognize physical boundaries is interesting but doesn't really have a huge impact on game play. This changes when players are actually fighting each other since there are interesting ways to exploit the lack of collision of detection to avoid taking damage from spells.
MMOs like World of Warcraft are always going to have their PvP game crippled by not having collision detection. Melee classes are amoung the most popular and they can use line of sight and a lack of collision detection to take advatage of casters. This can be seen in how poorly casters with long casting spells perform in the arenas. Targets can simply step inside of a player right before the spell goes off to avoid its effects. This tactic is less effective in open world fighting where escape is an option but it's always going to be prevalent in environments like the arenas. -Butting Heads: Collision Detection in MMOs
Those who tread with ill intent
Beneath our sacred firmament,
Whether of Hammer or of Tree,
Albion's might shall strike at thee!
I can see the problems on both sides of the issue.
-No CD means masses of enemies running through any sort of defense that can be set up and really making it a numbers game, which no one wants. Additionally, it allows for LoS exploits which no one wants, either.
-Bad CD makes it a lag fest and makes large scale battles unbearable for most players, especially those without AoE.
-Even good CD can be really frustrating if a few heavy tanks with a few dedicated healers can completely block a passage from an entire army. (Imagine what the milegates would have been like with CD!)
The bottom line is this: If there is going to be CD, the engine MUST be able to handle it without creating too much lag for players. AND, the Tank/Healer dynamic must allow for a blockade to be penetrable at some point.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
Awesome points, but let me refute a minor point you made on the con side of your post:
(Imagine what the milegates would have been like with CD!
If the Mile Gates and walls were destructible, meaning able to be breached with siege or climbing ropes/ssiege ladders, I don't think it would be an issue at all.
The whole point of attacking a defended fortified position is in the breaching of the defense by attacking the weaker points not the strongest most defended points. If the game allows players to do this, many of the concerns of having 5 players blocking a gateway become non issues.
Those who tread with ill intent
Beneath our sacred firmament,
Whether of Hammer or of Tree,
Albion's might shall strike at thee!
Positionals go hand in hand with collsion detection, not sure why someone would want to have one and not the other.
Those who tread with ill intent
Beneath our sacred firmament,
Whether of Hammer or of Tree,
Albion's might shall strike at thee!
+1
Why? They are completely unrelated. What you're saying makes no sense.
Positionals are based on your character's position relative to his target, that is precisely what CD is about.
Walking through one's target completely invalidates the basic underpinning of having positionals, cheapens it entirely.
I'd prefer a game that does not chiefly rely on simplistic LOS methods for success, why not fill out all the dimensions and let the player exist in a world that is strategically meaningful every step of the way?
Those who tread with ill intent
Beneath our sacred firmament,
Whether of Hammer or of Tree,
Albion's might shall strike at thee!
Because if you can stand inside the geometry of another player, every positional attack becomes either impossible or always possible... both of which are stupid.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
That is completely subjective. I feel that CD cheapens the combat since it turns my enemy into a cylinder or a box.
DAoC's combat is SO much better than WAR's, and not having CD is one of the reasons.
This is where player skill comes into play.
No, it's where 50 players standing in a single square foot of game real estate comes into play.
Those who tread with ill intent
Beneath our sacred firmament,
Whether of Hammer or of Tree,
Albion's might shall strike at thee!
I really wish everyone who plays the "player skill" card would realize how silly they sound.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
/face or /stick......that's a big reason no CD wasnt a big deal in DAoC
Infinitely better than trying to find your way out of a friendly zerg.
LOL
Poster A: But having no fall damage is where player skill comes into play!
Poster B: Wat! The players are jumping over the cliff and escaping, let's add fall damage!
Poster A: No, that's player skilllz!
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Those who tread with ill intent
Beneath our sacred firmament,
Whether of Hammer or of Tree,
Albion's might shall strike at thee!