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Foundational Principle #11: Sandboxes

Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Member Posts: 405
in Camelot Unchained
http://citystateentertainment.com/2013/03/foundational-principle-11/

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

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Comments

  • SpeelySpeely Member CommonPosts: 861
    No big surprises here, but I like what I am hearing. I just hope there is a sb element to character progression beyond weapons/armor/gear, as in some flexibility for skill paths and the ability to make weird, even unusable builds. I do love freedom, though I know there is a ceiling on that kind of freedom as it pertains to game balance.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  • sweetdigssweetdigs Member Posts: 196

    Yummy.   Love me some sandbox games.  EVE, Darkfall..  two of my favorite games. 

    Cannot stand theme-park games like WoW where all you do is run from one set of quest givers to the next from levels 1 - whatever the max level is.  My five year old nephew has no problem playing WoW and almost never dies (and he actually laughs when he dies... I'm training him well for PvP!).

  • RaefarRaefar Member UncommonPosts: 29
    Originally posted by Mark Jacobs

    We will give the players the tools that they need to capture and control territories, to build and teardown structures, to engage nightly in RvR battles and to call upon forces that can physically change the world but in what order/manner this happens is based solely on the players’ actions and not a pre-determined story arc. While we will lay out the world’s topography and we will place a limited number of some key structures throughout it, it will be the players who will determine where the vast majority of the structures are placed and how they will be arranged, their function is and even their power.

    Mind = Blown

  • sweetdigssweetdigs Member Posts: 196
    Originally posted by Raefar
    Originally posted by Mark Jacobs

    We will give the players the tools that they need to capture and control territories, to build and teardown structures, to engage nightly in RvR battles and to call upon forces that can physically change the world but in what order/manner this happens is based solely on the players’ actions and not a pre-determined story arc. While we will lay out the world’s topography and we will place a limited number of some key structures throughout it, it will be the players who will determine where the vast majority of the structures are placed and how they will be arranged, their function is and even their power.

    Mind = Blown

    If he can pull this off.. it'll be a game changer.

    Imagine being able to build guard posts along well-traveled roads (especially if roads give a speed bonus and are the preferred mode of long-distance travel).

    Being able to build anywhere in a region you own is.. well..  simply awesome.

  • meddyckmeddyck Member UncommonPosts: 1,282

    My first reaction was unease since these systems are quite different than how things worked in DAOC. But the more I think about it, the more I like the possibilities that would open up doing it this way. It'll all come down to the execution (when doesn't it?).

    One thing he didn't really emphasize as a form of sandblox play is just the overall RvR system and RvR progression. Realm points, realm titles, realm abilities, and relics worked in DAOC to allow players to participate in RvR in many different ways (solo stealther, solo visible, visible group, stealther group, pick up group, roaming guild group, 8 man group, minizerg, zerg). That's the type of sandbox element that is most important to have in CU because it makes the game feel fresh and encourages players to login each and every day for years and years.

    DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State EntertainmentMember RarePosts: 649

    Originally posted by Raefar

    Originally posted by Mark Jacobs

    We will give the players the tools that they need to capture and control territories, to build and teardown structures, to engage nightly in RvR battles and to call upon forces that can physically change the world but in what order/manner this happens is based solely on the players’ actions and not a pre-determined story arc. While we will lay out the world’s topography and we will place a limited number of some key structures throughout it, it will be the players who will determine where the vast majority of the structures are placed and how they will be arranged, their function is and even their power.

    Mind = Blown

    Originally posted by sweetdigs

    Originally posted by Raefar
    Originally posted by Mark Jacobs

    We will give the players the tools that they need to capture and control territories, to build and teardown structures, to engage nightly in RvR battles and to call upon forces that can physically change the world but in what order/manner this happens is based solely on the players’ actions and not a pre-determined story arc. While we will lay out the world’s topography and we will place a limited number of some key structures throughout it, it will be the players who will determine where the vast majority of the structures are placed and how they will be arranged, their function is and even their power.

    Mind = Blown

    If he can pull this off.. it'll be a game changer.

    Imagine being able to build guard posts along well-traveled roads (especially if roads give a speed bonus and are the preferred mode of long-distance travel).

    Being able to build anywhere in a region you own is.. well..  simply awesome.

    I was wondering when somebody would pick up on that little bite-sized nougat with the delicious gooey center. :)

    Edit: And yes, it is a big risk and challenge for us or any developer to do that. This is one of the examples of how I'm not afraid to take risks with the design. It would be so much easier just to follow established conventions, design the heck out of it and then tell people to have fun storming the castle. This could absolutely blow up in our faces if not done well but it's so worth the risk.

    Back to work on the Kickstarter.

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State EntertainmentMember RarePosts: 649
    Originally posted by meddyck

    My first reaction was unease since these systems are quite different than how things worked in DAOC. But the more I think about it, the more I like the possibilities that would open up doing it this way. It'll all come down to the execution (when doesn't it?).

    One thing he didn't really emphasize as a form of sandblox play is just the overall RvR system and RvR progression. Realm points, realm titles, realm abilities, and relics worked in DAOC to allow players to participate in RvR in many different ways (solo stealther, solo visible, visible group, stealther group, pick up group, roaming guild group, 8 man group, minizerg, zerg). That's the type of sandbox element that is most important to have in CU because it makes the game feel fresh and encourages players to login each and every day for years and years.

    That's for another topic, all its own. As you can imagine, that sort of post would be rather lengthy, even by my standards. :)

    You're right of course, the interplay between classes, RAs, group sizes, objectives, etc. are perfect examples of how the sandbox mechanic works in an MMORPG, especially for a RvR-based game.

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Member Posts: 405
    This is by far my favorite FP by Mark Jacobs.  I have no doubt that Mark and CSE can deliver and when they do, it'll convert the naysayers.. unless they play world of warcraft; then there's simply no hope. :P

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

    image

  • SpeelySpeely Member CommonPosts: 861
    I love it. Imagine being able to build outposts to protect mines and supply roads to your nearest keep, providing protection for the activities of your crafters in the field. Once established, it would lend more incentive to building said keeps up and defending them as the flow of materials increases.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  • BenediktBenedikt Member UncommonPosts: 1,406
    i really hope they will be able to make crafting as MJ is imagining it, *drool* :)
  • sweetdigssweetdigs Member Posts: 196
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    Originally posted by Raefar

    Originally posted by Mark Jacobs

    We will give the players the tools that they need to capture and control territories, to build and teardown structures, to engage nightly in RvR battles and to call upon forces that can physically change the world but in what order/manner this happens is based solely on the players’ actions and not a pre-determined story arc. While we will lay out the world’s topography and we will place a limited number of some key structures throughout it, it will be the players who will determine where the vast majority of the structures are placed and how they will be arranged, their function is and even their power.

    Mind = Blown

    Originally posted by sweetdigs

    Originally posted by Raefar
    Originally posted by Mark Jacobs

    We will give the players the tools that they need to capture and control territories, to build and teardown structures, to engage nightly in RvR battles and to call upon forces that can physically change the world but in what order/manner this happens is based solely on the players’ actions and not a pre-determined story arc. While we will lay out the world’s topography and we will place a limited number of some key structures throughout it, it will be the players who will determine where the vast majority of the structures are placed and how they will be arranged, their function is and even their power.

    Mind = Blown

    If he can pull this off.. it'll be a game changer.

    Imagine being able to build guard posts along well-traveled roads (especially if roads give a speed bonus and are the preferred mode of long-distance travel).

    Being able to build anywhere in a region you own is.. well..  simply awesome.

    I was wondering when somebody would pick up on that little bite-sized nougat with the delicious gooey center. :)

    Edit: And yes, it is a big risk and challenge for us or any developer to do that. This is one of the examples of how I'm not afraid to take risks with the design. It would be so much easier just to follow established conventions, design the heck out of it and then tell people to have fun storming the castle. This could absolutely blow up in our faces if not done well but it's so worth the risk.

    Back to work on the Kickstarter.

    It's also exactly this type of risk that draws so many of us to this game and gives us hope for the future of MMOs.

    It's also exactly the reason I'll be funding the KS.  I wouldn't fund a KS for a conventional game.

  • RaefarRaefar Member UncommonPosts: 29
    It also adds random attackable objective while out roaming and also give scouts something to do.
  • SpeelySpeely Member CommonPosts: 861
    @Raefar

    Interesting possibilities with scouts. They could not only report on enemy building/defensive activities, but also sabotage them before an attacks, perhaps, thus compromising said defenses provided they have the requisite sabotaging equipment provided by an appropriate crafter ;)

    http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  • sweetdigssweetdigs Member Posts: 196
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by sweetdigs

    If he can pull this off.. it'll be a game changer.

    Imagine being able to build guard posts along well-traveled roads (especially if roads give a speed bonus and are the preferred mode of long-distance travel).

    Being able to build anywhere in a region you own is.. well..  simply awesome.

    What's to stop someone from moving the roads.

    Good question.  Hard to know if that will be one of the immutable structures laid down by CSE or whether crafters can build/destroy roads.  Would be very interesting if you could build/destroy them with the use of stone that you needed to harvest.  Imagine a nice chain gang going of harvesters collecting stone, crafters building the road, and adventurers defending the construction of a road all the way to the nearest keep.

  • TadderTadder Member Posts: 38

    Thanks for the post Mark. I had a quick question on building. I like what I'm hearing about freedom to create the majority of structures. I think this will unlock a lot of potential by the player base. I haven't heard a lot about the building system though (or at least i can't recall or missed the post -- If there is some info out there someone link me it.)

     

    Could you spend some time explaining how you see the building system? Will there be a fixed number of structures every person can place (similar to the SWG model of 10 spaces with buildings taking up different numbers of spaces based on size?) There seems to be a plan for military, individual, community structures, how will these be obtained and will they be linked to RvR ranks at all (I.E Kings get to place castles.) At this point I know things aren't concrete, but I'd like to see what's currently going through the minds of the Devs as it relates to housing/building. Maybe a FP?

     

     

  • RaefarRaefar Member UncommonPosts: 29
    The idea of building a secert little outpost the other realms don't a clue is there fills me with glee. However would this make the need for an in-game map for each realm?
  • falcukfalcuk Member UncommonPosts: 42

    Im loving this, this is going to be epic.

    Hopefully we can upgrade keeps and rather than just pressing upgrade on an npc and waiting some time, perhaps we can actually contribute as crafters to the progression, say it takes xx hours without any player interaction, with players helping they can reduce this time drastically.

    Then build structures nearby, forges, stables, workshops etc, even walled fortifications around them all, making it harder for the enemy to get in and destroy it all or capture it all.

    Which brings me onto the next bit, say we ransack an enemy outpost, can we de-construct their buildings to steal materials to upgrade our own? that would be so cool if we could.

    braings going into overtime now

  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Member UncommonPosts: 322

    ...maybe there are some rather powerful beings that even do more than simply building and destroying structures....

     

    Now THIS is interesting.

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • OldskooOldskoo Member UncommonPosts: 189
    Originally posted by Tumblebutz

    ...maybe there are some rather powerful beings that even do more than simply building and destroying structures....

     

    Now THIS is interesting.

    Yes lol, that part caught my eye as well. Wonder what this is about?

    image

  • OldskooOldskoo Member UncommonPosts: 189
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs
    Originally posted by meddyck

    My first reaction was unease since these systems are quite different than how things worked in DAOC. But the more I think about it, the more I like the possibilities that would open up doing it this way. It'll all come down to the execution (when doesn't it?).

    One thing he didn't really emphasize as a form of sandblox play is just the overall RvR system and RvR progression. Realm points, realm titles, realm abilities, and relics worked in DAOC to allow players to participate in RvR in many different ways (solo stealther, solo visible, visible group, stealther group, pick up group, roaming guild group, 8 man group, minizerg, zerg). That's the type of sandbox element that is most important to have in CU because it makes the game feel fresh and encourages players to login each and every day for years and years.

    That's for another topic, all its own. As you can imagine, that sort of post would be rather lengthy, even by my standards. :)

    You're right of course, the interplay between classes, RAs, group sizes, objectives, etc. are perfect examples of how the sandbox mechanic works in an MMORPG, especially for a RvR-based game.

    Myself, I enjoy reading your foundational principles and have listened to each interview I can find that you have done about CU. Bring on the lenghty post if you have the time :)

    image

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • sweetdigssweetdigs Member Posts: 196
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by sweetdigs
    Originally posted by Raefar
    Originally posted by Mark Jacobs

    We will give the players the tools that they need to capture and control territories, to build and teardown structures, to engage nightly in RvR battles and to call upon forces that can physically change the world but in what order/manner this happens is based solely on the players’ actions and not a pre-determined story arc. While we will lay out the world’s topography and we will place a limited number of some key structures throughout it, it will be the players who will determine where the vast majority of the structures are placed and how they will be arranged, their function is and even their power.

    Mind = Blown

    If he can pull this off.. it'll be a game changer.

    Imagine being able to build guard posts along well-traveled roads (especially if roads give a speed bonus and are the preferred mode of long-distance travel).

    Being able to build anywhere in a region you own is.. well..  simply awesome.

    Wouldn't say a game changer I'm pretty sure AoC had a town creation system in their pvp zones similar to this. I think Archage is also doing the same thing with their game. I'm not 100% sure on these details but I think it's always great to see player created towns. 

    SWG had player created towns and houses you could build most anywhere in the world.  Same with resource extractors being built anywhere in the world.  So you're right, THAT aspect of it is not a game changer.  Fair point.

    However, the way this may all interplay, and the ability to build more types of structures in the world where it's strategically meaningful in a RvR type of setting, that's a whole 'nother level of interaction.

  • OldskooOldskoo Member UncommonPosts: 189
    Originally posted by tokesh
    [mod edit]

    The amount I am willing to risk investing in this game is nothing that will hurt me financially. If it fails and my $50 bucks or so I invest in the game are wasted, it won't break me or be any different than any other form of entertainment I sink my expendable cash into. 

    image

  • Corinthian-XCorinthian-X Member Posts: 86
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by sweetdigs
    Originally posted by Raefar
    Originally posted by Mark Jacobs

    We will give the players the tools that they need to capture and control territories, to build and teardown structures, to engage nightly in RvR battles and to call upon forces that can physically change the world but in what order/manner this happens is based solely on the players’ actions and not a pre-determined story arc. While we will lay out the world’s topography and we will place a limited number of some key structures throughout it, it will be the players who will determine where the vast majority of the structures are placed and how they will be arranged, their function is and even their power.

    Mind = Blown

    If he can pull this off.. it'll be a game changer.

    Imagine being able to build guard posts along well-traveled roads (especially if roads give a speed bonus and are the preferred mode of long-distance travel).

    Being able to build anywhere in a region you own is.. well..  simply awesome.

    Wouldn't say a game changer I'm pretty sure AoC had a town creation system in their pvp zones similar to this. I think Archage is also doing the same thing with their game. I'm not 100% sure on these details but I think it's always great to see player created towns. 

    Shadowbane says, "Hi!"

    To this day I'm still a bit upset about SB. Such great concepts which were ultimately doomed by poor execution(SB.exe in particular). But if you want to talk about players affecting the world look no further. Politics, underhanded dealings, betrayal...it was all there.

     

  • MerkethyMerkethy Member UncommonPosts: 23
    Another great blog entry, keep up the great work MJ :)
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