I think for someone with a failed Tabula Rasa in his record and the need for a kickstarter for his new title, he is rolling up some heavy artillery there.
Have fun
Except that Tabula Rasa was actually quite good.
It was unfinished, and it severely lacked things to do - but what was there was at least 5 years ahead of its time.
Heck - we still dont have nothing like it.
Should we mention that he mostly invented MMO and sandbox MMO
Or his influence on RPGs in general.
He might be arrogant prick, but he is a great game designer and seriously loves games.
Tabula Rasa was a trainwreck upon release. Lots of potential but a very poor execution. NCsoft only pushed very high quality games back then and TR was a disaster for their reputation.
I have no idea if Garriot messed up or NCsoft pushed his studio to the edge but judging on the very poor product he presented i wouldnt want that as a high quality publisher.
Tabula Rasa was a trainwreck upon release. Lots of potential but a very poor execution. NCsoft only pushed very high quality games back then and TR was a disaster for their reputation.
I have no idea if Garriot messed up or NCsoft pushed his studio to the edge but judging on the very poor product he presented i wouldnt want that as a high quality publisher.
It's really hard for me to take him seriously when none of the "good" game designers he mentioned have put out a good game in over a decade.
Will wright put out Spore, one of the biggest disappointments in gaming history, and Peter Molyneux has produced 3 half assed childish and underwhelming Fable games.
Chris Roberts hasn't had a game produced since Freelancer in 2003.
His whole rant sounds like the same thing you'd hear from some washed up jock talking about how the current league is terrible and "his generation" was way more talented... Despite evidence to the contrary.
He is 100% correct about how game designers are actually the folks who just don't have the talent (whether it be art, programming, audio, etc) to do the heavy lifting.
Originally posted by aranha Tabula Rasa was a trainwreck upon release. Lots of potential but a very poor execution. NCsoft only pushed very high quality games back then and TR was a disaster for their reputation.
I have no idea if Garriot messed up or NCsoft pushed his studio to the edge but judging on the very poor product he presented i wouldnt want that as a high quality publisher.
Thanks for making my morning... I was laughing so hard, that I had to wait before I could respond... ^^ NCsoft is a "high quality publisher"???
You do realize that they've axed four or five western games at this point? I seriously doubt that a "high quality publisher" would have made nearly that many mistakes, nor would they now have Nexon as a major investor... ^^
Tabula Rasa was well before its time, and also pushed out way too soon. But even with that, I found some aspects of it quite enjoyable. If not for NCsofts political antics (which eventually cost them $32 million), and RG's focus on his trip to space (thus spliting his focus), it might well have turned out differently.
I played it from launch, until the last day. In that time, the Dev's made many improvements, and if they had been given more time, I've little doubt it would have found a stable, loyal player base. But life is filled with missed opportunities.
A well done fan video, showing many of the reasons, many of us enjoyed the game.
NCsoft is the worst publisher known in the MMO industry. There is EA that a lot of people don't like, but I don't consider them MMO focused (just SWTOR)
However, NCsoft focuses only on MMOs as far as I know.
Lets see...favorite MMO...Auto Assault
NCsoft put all resources into Aion, refused to advertise for Auto Assault (but did massive advertising for Aion)...canned in a few months
Second favorite MMO, Tabula Rasa
Scammed Richard (and the courts went in his favor, so no matter what may or may not have happened, the jury found Richard to be the victim)...shut down TR in a few months. Again, because they wanted to focus on Aion
Third favorite MMO ever (every MMO NCsoft has published is in my top 3 favorite MMOs...rather funny (is ironic the right word for this?)...City of Heroes
it was making a PROFIT. Small, but was making a profit for them. Canned...for some unknown reason.
NCsoft hates western games, as seen in AA, TR and CoH. And why they focus almost entirely on eastern games (except GW and GW2, but GW1 has a lot of eastern themes, and GW2 is just an exception because it makes so much money)
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
NCsoft is the worst publisher known in the MMO industry. There is EA that a lot of people don't like, but I don't consider them MMO focused (just SWTOR)
However, NCsoft focuses only on MMOs as far as I know.
Lets see...favorite MMO...Auto Assault
NCsoft put all resources into Aion, refused to advertise for Auto Assault (but did massive advertising for Aion)...canned in a few months
Second favorite MMO, Tabula Rasa
Scammed Richard (and the courts went in his favor, so no matter what may or may not have happened, the jury found Richard to be the victim)...shut down TR in a few months. Again, because they wanted to focus on Aion
Third favorite MMO ever (every MMO NCsoft has published is in my top 3 favorite MMOs...rather funny (is ironic the right word for this?)...City of Heroes
it was making a PROFIT. Small, but was making a profit for them. Canned...for some unknown reason.
NCsoft hates western games, as seen in AA, TR and CoH. And why they focus almost entirely on eastern games (except GW and GW2, but GW1 has a lot of eastern themes, and GW2 is just an exception because it makes so much money)
EA is far worse. SW:TOR is actually their best success. They've cancelled a large number of MMO projects that never even saw the light of day: Earth and Beyond, Motor City Online, a new Ultima MMO, that Dungeon Keeper MMO, that MMO based on Roman Mythlogy... Does anyone remember The Sims Online? Hopefully not! And Warhammer Online wasn't exactly a big success either.
NCSoft at least has Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 which are extremely successful well advertised WESTERN developed games, so I don't really think NCSoft "hates" western games.
Originally posted by Volgore I just stumbled upon this on PCGamer: http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/19/richard-garriott-game-designers-suck/I think for someone with a failed Tabula Rasa in his record and the need for a kickstarter for his new title, he is rolling up some heavy artillery there.Have fun
Except that Tabula Rasa was actually quite good.
It was unfinished, and it severely lacked things to do - but what was there was at least 5 years ahead of its time.
Heck - we still dont have nothing like it.
Should we mention that he mostly invented MMO and sandbox MMO
Or his influence on RPGs in general.
He might be arrogant prick, but he is a great game designer and seriously loves games.
Mostly invented MMO. lol that is just so funny. lol.................
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I dunno, it seems like the guy is living in "the good ol' days". His new game concept looks so 90's. I hope things work out for him, but I doubt I will find his game appealing.
Honestly I see the publisher having more at fault then the designers... though its a good mix. Publishers put on certain 'stipulations', developers spend time possibly being to ambitious and ideas clash with the publisher and yeah... a huge mess ensues.
I always felt its often a mix. A good game designer can easily be caught up in the mix and wanting the result to be something and taking so much time the product just falls flat. The publisher often is fixated on money money money so they can want certain elements in that tarnish the game and will push the game to be released 'quicker quicker quicker' which can also demean the end product.
I do lean towards the developers side for the most part, but at the same time its quite easy to see how a project someone truely loves can end up failing taking too long and being to ambitious on that a publisher might need to push them to a deadline and let 'reality' set in.
Honestly, I don't think anyone should be making comments like this, with the possible exception to those who have proven themselves to be 'great game designers'.
This kinda arrogance usually just makes you look like a giant tool, and everytime someone has basically called out the rest of an industry for 'sucking' it's ALWAYS come back to bite them in the arse. While I would agree that there are a lot of bad game designers out there, I wouldn't say 'most', and I think a lot of people really don't understand what makes a good game designer anyway.
The majority of games are uninspired and poorly designed. It's the nature of the ratio of talented to non-talented people in any field. The importance of talent is enhanced when it comes to design sensibility since it's something where you either have it or you don't, and no amount of school can change that.
There will always be far more hacks than there are genuine talents. This goes for any industry.
Honestly, I don't think anyone should be making comments like this, with the possible exception to those who have proven themselves to be 'great game designers'.
This kinda arrogance usually just makes you look like a giant tool, and everytime someone has basically called out the rest of an industry for 'sucking' it's ALWAYS come back to bite them in the arse. While I would agree that there are a lot of bad game designers out there, I wouldn't say 'most', and I think a lot of people really don't understand what makes a good game designer anyway.
hahaha, did you just make the hint that Garriott has not proven himself to be a great game designer? ROFLMAO!
The man that invented the RPG with graphics...the man that invented full world map overlay...the man that invented the 3D dungeon...the man that the entire RPG genre based its games off of for 15 YEARS, created the first RPG with an actual written narrative instead of the typical minial plots. First RPG with MORALs effecting gameplay. He pushed MMORPGs(and even NAMED it that) to the forefront with UO by vastly improving design tech that allowed far more people to play a server along with a great many game designs that are still used today.
Even his BAD games like Ultima 8, brought the first M rated game due to its graphic depictions of violence, death and cultism forever opening the door to the games we have today and the royal crapfest that was Ultima 9 (mostly made by others) brought the first true 3D world to RPGs when most thought it wasnt possible in a large setting. And then Tablua Rasa, being BAD, was still way ahead of its time and brought NEW things to the genre, something few designers can claim today.
Did you read on why Tabula Rasa failed and that Richard Garriot sued NCsoft for 28 million and won over his departure from Tabula Rasa?
I wouldn't want a publisher after that and do a kick starter instead.
Care to explain why it failed?
Thats actually very simple.
The game was well loved in Beta 1, the game played out more like a shooter, high action and fast. Then they started to make it more like an MMO and it went downhill from Beta 2 onward and got even worse with open beta and more changes to slow it all down.
He isn't saying anything different than what 99% of the forum users here say every day. You would think that the MMORPG.com forum community would be thrilled that an insider FINALLY agrees with them and their never-ending negative criticisms are now justified!!
Utterly arrogant for him to say, developers are restricted by money, they're not goign to be gambling with their livelihoods with risky science experiments that will probably not work. So they have to work with what sells, that limits them but it gives them a livelihood.
Developers are some of the most talented/inventive people you can possibly know, and they understand the complexities involved in making videogames, it's just that culture isn't there yet to allow them to reach greater heights, but to suggest that they 'suck' because they're in culture that greatly limits them is horribly misinformed.
Developers don't suck, consumers buying the same generic crap over and over again do. How dare they make money by making the things that sell.
He isn't saying anything different than what 99% of the forum users here say every day. You would think that the MMORPG.com forum community would be thrilled that an insider FINALLY agrees with them and their never-ending negative criticisms are now justified!!
He hasnt made anything worthwile since last century, forgive us if were a bit skeptical.
He isn't saying anything different than what 99% of the forum users here say every day. You would think that the MMORPG.com forum community would be thrilled that an insider FINALLY agrees with them and their never-ending negative criticisms are now justified!!
He hasnt made anything worthwile since last century, forgive us if were a bit skeptical.
That makes a lot of sense...hey, we think the genre is stagnant due to poor game designers not thinking outside the box!
"hey, the genre is filled with sucky game designers"
I am sorry, who are you to say that, you havent made anything good since before your last game...I am skeptical!
Says a lot about the world when people defend some schumck who un-constructively bashes the industry he just happens to be re-entering with a kickstarter campaign that basically says PAY ME I R MADE TEH ULTIMAZ after failing in his last attempt. It's like the exact definition of bad form, poor taste, cashing in on the latest financial scam (im not saying kickstarter cant be a good thing .. but this wreaks of a cash in) .. etc.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
He isn't saying anything different than what 99% of the forum users here say every day. You would think that the MMORPG.com forum community would be thrilled that an insider FINALLY agrees with them and their never-ending negative criticisms are now justified!!
I don't think the majority of people here are questioning whether he's right or wrong. This is really more about the source of the statement, and the irony of it all, as well as whether they believe he's just aiming for publicity to help his kickstarter game, and whether or not that in itself is a cash grab.
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by johnisme
Did you read on why Tabula Rasa failed and that Richard Garriot sued NCsoft for 28 million and won over his departure from Tabula Rasa?
I wouldn't want a publisher after that and do a kick starter instead.
Originally posted by birdycephon I dunno, it seems like the guy is living in "the good ol' days". His new game concept looks so 90's. I hope things work out for him, but I doubt I will find his game appealing.
Of course he does. He has done nothing successful since then.
So I was thinking about this and came up with a couple thoughts.
1. Facebook type/social games have been shown to be quite successfull, and IMO in teh future almost all MMO's are going to at least have some kind of tie into social media either through facebook/twitter/apps or whatever so that people can access the MMO in some capactity basically from anyway. Is this a good idea? In some ways yes, it will keep people more involved, more involved is typically good for the consumer and for the dev means more money. In some ways it might make games a bit cheesier and more simplified - of course the devil is in the details.
From that perspective I think he is bang on and the game probably will be a success. However I likely won't play it. This may just be a case of it may be a great fun game, but not for us, not marketed or geared towards us.
2. He may just be trying to cash in on the social media band wagon
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
Except that Tabula Rasa was actually quite good.
It was unfinished, and it severely lacked things to do - but what was there was at least 5 years ahead of its time.
Heck - we still dont have nothing like it.
Should we mention that he mostly invented MMO and sandbox MMO
Or his influence on RPGs in general.
He might be arrogant prick, but he is a great game designer and seriously loves games.
I have no idea if Garriot messed up or NCsoft pushed his studio to the edge but judging on the very poor product he presented i wouldnt want that as a high quality publisher.
I have no idea if Garriot messed up or NCsoft pushed his studio to the edge but judging on the very poor product he presented i wouldnt want that as a high quality publisher.
It's really hard for me to take him seriously when none of the "good" game designers he mentioned have put out a good game in over a decade.
Will wright put out Spore, one of the biggest disappointments in gaming history, and Peter Molyneux has produced 3 half assed childish and underwhelming Fable games.
Chris Roberts hasn't had a game produced since Freelancer in 2003.
His whole rant sounds like the same thing you'd hear from some washed up jock talking about how the current league is terrible and "his generation" was way more talented... Despite evidence to the contrary.
He is 100% correct about how game designers are actually the folks who just don't have the talent (whether it be art, programming, audio, etc) to do the heavy lifting.
Thanks for making my morning... I was laughing so hard, that I had to wait before I could respond... ^^ NCsoft is a "high quality publisher"???
You do realize that they've axed four or five western games at this point? I seriously doubt that a "high quality publisher" would have made nearly that many mistakes, nor would they now have Nexon as a major investor... ^^
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-08/nexon-buys-685-million-stake-in-ncsoft-becomes-biggest-holder.html
Tabula Rasa was well before its time, and also pushed out way too soon. But even with that, I found some aspects of it quite enjoyable. If not for NCsofts political antics (which eventually cost them $32 million), and RG's focus on his trip to space (thus spliting his focus), it might well have turned out differently.
I played it from launch, until the last day. In that time, the Dev's made many improvements, and if they had been given more time, I've little doubt it would have found a stable, loyal player base. But life is filled with missed opportunities.
A well done fan video, showing many of the reasons, many of us enjoyed the game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JODmTeAplaM
Launch video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3uUMME4m9w
NCsoft is the worst publisher known in the MMO industry. There is EA that a lot of people don't like, but I don't consider them MMO focused (just SWTOR)
However, NCsoft focuses only on MMOs as far as I know.
Lets see...favorite MMO...Auto Assault
NCsoft put all resources into Aion, refused to advertise for Auto Assault (but did massive advertising for Aion)...canned in a few months
Second favorite MMO, Tabula Rasa
Scammed Richard (and the courts went in his favor, so no matter what may or may not have happened, the jury found Richard to be the victim)...shut down TR in a few months. Again, because they wanted to focus on Aion
Third favorite MMO ever (every MMO NCsoft has published is in my top 3 favorite MMOs...rather funny (is ironic the right word for this?)...City of Heroes
it was making a PROFIT. Small, but was making a profit for them. Canned...for some unknown reason.
NCsoft hates western games, as seen in AA, TR and CoH. And why they focus almost entirely on eastern games (except GW and GW2, but GW1 has a lot of eastern themes, and GW2 is just an exception because it makes so much money)
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
No .. "he WAS a great game designer" ... fixed.
EA is far worse. SW:TOR is actually their best success. They've cancelled a large number of MMO projects that never even saw the light of day: Earth and Beyond, Motor City Online, a new Ultima MMO, that Dungeon Keeper MMO, that MMO based on Roman Mythlogy... Does anyone remember The Sims Online? Hopefully not! And Warhammer Online wasn't exactly a big success either.
NCSoft at least has Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 which are extremely successful well advertised WESTERN developed games, so I don't really think NCSoft "hates" western games.
Except that Tabula Rasa was actually quite good.
It was unfinished, and it severely lacked things to do - but what was there was at least 5 years ahead of its time.
Heck - we still dont have nothing like it.
Should we mention that he mostly invented MMO and sandbox MMO
Or his influence on RPGs in general.
He might be arrogant prick, but he is a great game designer and seriously loves games.
Mostly invented MMO. lol that is just so funny. lol.................Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Hey now, he never said he wasn't on the list!
Honestly I see the publisher having more at fault then the designers... though its a good mix. Publishers put on certain 'stipulations', developers spend time possibly being to ambitious and ideas clash with the publisher and yeah... a huge mess ensues.
I always felt its often a mix. A good game designer can easily be caught up in the mix and wanting the result to be something and taking so much time the product just falls flat. The publisher often is fixated on money money money so they can want certain elements in that tarnish the game and will push the game to be released 'quicker quicker quicker' which can also demean the end product.
I do lean towards the developers side for the most part, but at the same time its quite easy to see how a project someone truely loves can end up failing taking too long and being to ambitious on that a publisher might need to push them to a deadline and let 'reality' set in.
Honestly, I don't think anyone should be making comments like this, with the possible exception to those who have proven themselves to be 'great game designers'.
This kinda arrogance usually just makes you look like a giant tool, and everytime someone has basically called out the rest of an industry for 'sucking' it's ALWAYS come back to bite them in the arse. While I would agree that there are a lot of bad game designers out there, I wouldn't say 'most', and I think a lot of people really don't understand what makes a good game designer anyway.
The majority of games are uninspired and poorly designed. It's the nature of the ratio of talented to non-talented people in any field. The importance of talent is enhanced when it comes to design sensibility since it's something where you either have it or you don't, and no amount of school can change that.
There will always be far more hacks than there are genuine talents. This goes for any industry.
So again, he was just stating an obvious fact.
hahaha, did you just make the hint that Garriott has not proven himself to be a great game designer? ROFLMAO!
The man that invented the RPG with graphics...the man that invented full world map overlay...the man that invented the 3D dungeon...the man that the entire RPG genre based its games off of for 15 YEARS, created the first RPG with an actual written narrative instead of the typical minial plots. First RPG with MORALs effecting gameplay. He pushed MMORPGs(and even NAMED it that) to the forefront with UO by vastly improving design tech that allowed far more people to play a server along with a great many game designs that are still used today.
Even his BAD games like Ultima 8, brought the first M rated game due to its graphic depictions of violence, death and cultism forever opening the door to the games we have today and the royal crapfest that was Ultima 9 (mostly made by others) brought the first true 3D world to RPGs when most thought it wasnt possible in a large setting. And then Tablua Rasa, being BAD, was still way ahead of its time and brought NEW things to the genre, something few designers can claim today.
Care to explain why it failed?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Thats actually very simple.
The game was well loved in Beta 1, the game played out more like a shooter, high action and fast. Then they started to make it more like an MMO and it went downhill from Beta 2 onward and got even worse with open beta and more changes to slow it all down.
He isn't saying anything different than what 99% of the forum users here say every day. You would think that the MMORPG.com forum community would be thrilled that an insider FINALLY agrees with them and their never-ending negative criticisms are now justified!!
Utterly arrogant for him to say, developers are restricted by money, they're not goign to be gambling with their livelihoods with risky science experiments that will probably not work. So they have to work with what sells, that limits them but it gives them a livelihood.
Developers are some of the most talented/inventive people you can possibly know, and they understand the complexities involved in making videogames, it's just that culture isn't there yet to allow them to reach greater heights, but to suggest that they 'suck' because they're in culture that greatly limits them is horribly misinformed.
Developers don't suck, consumers buying the same generic crap over and over again do. How dare they make money by making the things that sell.
He hasnt made anything worthwile since last century, forgive us if were a bit skeptical.
That makes a lot of sense...hey, we think the genre is stagnant due to poor game designers not thinking outside the box!
"hey, the genre is filled with sucky game designers"
I am sorry, who are you to say that, you havent made anything good since before your last game...I am skeptical!
Says a lot about the world when people defend some schumck who un-constructively bashes the industry he just happens to be re-entering with a kickstarter campaign that basically says PAY ME I R MADE TEH ULTIMAZ after failing in his last attempt. It's like the exact definition of bad form, poor taste, cashing in on the latest financial scam (im not saying kickstarter cant be a good thing .. but this wreaks of a cash in) .. etc.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I don't think the majority of people here are questioning whether he's right or wrong. This is really more about the source of the statement, and the irony of it all, as well as whether they believe he's just aiming for publicity to help his kickstarter game, and whether or not that in itself is a cash grab.
You should look at my earlier post in the thread.Of course he does. He has done nothing successful since then.
Only a has-been blowing a lot of hot-air.
So I was thinking about this and came up with a couple thoughts.
1. Facebook type/social games have been shown to be quite successfull, and IMO in teh future almost all MMO's are going to at least have some kind of tie into social media either through facebook/twitter/apps or whatever so that people can access the MMO in some capactity basically from anyway. Is this a good idea? In some ways yes, it will keep people more involved, more involved is typically good for the consumer and for the dev means more money. In some ways it might make games a bit cheesier and more simplified - of course the devil is in the details.
From that perspective I think he is bang on and the game probably will be a success. However I likely won't play it. This may just be a case of it may be a great fun game, but not for us, not marketed or geared towards us.
2. He may just be trying to cash in on the social media band wagon