It's a bit depressing to see how most MMO's are so singularly focused on only one aspect of the things that people enjoy in games - progression. Not that there is anything particularly wrong with progression but there are ALOT of other things that people enjoy in gaming (in general) aside from progression....
There is exploration, problem solving, socialization (in various forms), competition, narrative, creativity, etc.
Most MMO's seem to have pretty much defaulted on trying to address any of the above and seem almost entirely focused on progression. I find that rather sad and narrow-minded. Even many people that enjoy progression have a much wider range of interests then simply that.
It's a bit depressing to see how most MMO's are so singularly focused on only one aspect of the things that people enjoy in games - progression. Not that there is anything particularly wrong with progression but there are ALOT of other things that people enjoy in gaming (in general) aside from progression....
There is exploration, problem solving, socialization (in various forms), competition, narrative, creativity, etc.
Most MMO's seem to have pretty much defaulted on trying to address any of the above and seem almost entirely focused on progression. I find that rather sad and narrow-minded. Even many people that enjoy progression have a much wider range of interests then simply that.
I agree, while progression is very important, in fact I think it is a definining characteristic of a MMORPG, it is not the only thing that matters.
Reason being, one day the progression slows down or comes to a halt, and then player interest will start to wane unless there are other engaging activities to keep them entertained.
That's why a title like EVE is brilliant, the progression for a single character is almost limitless, even though I ran 3 accounts for almost 5 years, there are still dozens of ships I never could fly, items that I can't craft, places I can't go.
Many other titles suffer once the content /progression come to a close, with players deciding to move on.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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I don't play mmo's to level up. When I first started playing MMO's I did not really know what they were as I started playing Ultima Online when it first came out.
I was admittedly lost when I first came into the game. Back then there were counselors that helped you out if you needed to ask a question. I pushed help and one appeared to help me. I started to ask them questions because I did not know what was going on in the game. I asked, "What do you do in this game?". The counselor replied, "Really anything you want." They went into alot of explaination on what I could do from being a fisherman, cook, warrior, mage, treasure hunter, etc. I told the counselor I wanted to smith. He then proceeded to show me how to mine and then smith so I could make items.
I started to mine and smelt ingots and talk to people. I met a few people in game, and we would go out, mine together, and just chat together. It did not feel like I was leveling as we were playing the game together in a group.
One person I played with talked me into making a warrior character so we could go to dungeons and play together. I ended up making a warrior character and joining a guild. We would all go to dungeon's for protection because if you would go alone you might get pked. It was alot of fun knowing that at any moment a pk could come and you could loose your stuff. Yes loosing your stuff sucked, but you could replace it rather easily.
I have many fond memories of PLAYING THE GAME WITH OTHERS OVER WORRYING ABOUT LEVELING MY CHARACTER. If you wanted to go explore you would grab a friend because it was always safer in numbers going out to do things. If you do not have someone to play the game with and talk to then its just not an MMO. It is a single player game with other people in the world doing their own thing.
When I was out playing with other people it was the best time I had in any mmo. You could go out with a group of players and not really be that good because they would help you out if you needed help fighting something. There was not levels per say to worry about. You could go out with help from others and go pretty much anywhere.
Then Trammel came and dumbed down the game, and everyone wanted to do their own thing because there was really no worries about dieing any longer so really no one wanted to play the game together any longer. To me it just ruined the game. I play MMO's to play with other people and if I wanted to play a game by myself I would just play a consol game.
Sorry leveling up was never a major concern for me and did not tie me into the world really at all. Thats the problem with MMO's right now. People are to worried about themselves, leveling up their character, and getting the stuff done that they want to do. They do all this stuff with relatively no help from anyone becasue MMO's now are easy. Ohh do this quest, run to this location run back snooze.... Bang head on keyboard.... wake up..... ohh a 5 year old could do this. Boring.
Even everquest was hard without pk's that could kill you or take your stuff. Has anyone here had a team kill in a major dungeon and wondered how the hell you were going to get your stuff back. Naked running into the dungeon to try to get it back really sucked. That was adventure that was excitement. You played your best because you knew if you screwed up then it was likely that you could get a party wipe and have to try to recover your stuff.
The older MMO's were more focused on playing together, or we did that because the games were really tough to solo by yourself. Thats what kept me in the game. Meeting players so I could get help or help them because you almost had to group. Playing the game with others made the game fun. Its what tied me to the world more then anything....
The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.
I don't play mmo's to level up. When I first started playing MMO's I did not really know what they were as I started playing Ultima Online when it first came out.
I was admittedly lost when I first came into the game. Back then there were counselors that helped you out if you needed to ask a question. I pushed help and one appeared to help me. I started to ask them questions because I did not know what was going on in the game. I asked, "What do you do in this game?". The counselor replied, "Really anything you want." They went into alot of explaination on what I could do from being a fisherman, cook, warrior, mage, treasure hunter, etc. I told the counselor I wanted to smith. He then proceeded to show me how to mine and then smith so I could make items.
I started to mine and smelt ingots and talk to people. I met a few people in game, and we would go out, mine together, and just chat together. It did not feel like I was leveling as we were playing the game together in a group.
One person I played with talked me into making a warrior character so we could go to dungeons and play together. I ended up making a warrior character and joining a guild. We would all go to dungeon's for protection because if you would go alone you might get pked. It was alot of fun knowing that at any moment a pk could come and you could loose your stuff. Yes loosing your stuff sucked, but you could replace it rather easily.
I have many fond memories of PLAYING THE GAME WITH OTHERS OVER WORRYING ABOUT LEVELING MY CHARACTER. If you wanted to go explore you would grab a friend because it was always safer in numbers going out to do things. If you do not have someone to play the game with and talk to then its just not an MMO. It is a single player game with other people in the world doing their own thing.
When I was out playing with other people it was the best time I had in any mmo. You could go out with a group of players and not really be that good because they would help you out if you needed help fighting something. There was not levels per say to worry about. You could go out with help from others and go pretty much anywhere.
Then Trammel came and dumbed down the game, and everyone wanted to do their own thing because there was really no worries about dieing any longer so really no one wanted to play the game together any longer. To me it just ruined the game. I play MMO's to play with other people and if I wanted to play a game by myself I would just play a consol game.
Sorry leveling up was never a major concern for me and did not tie me into the world really at all. Thats the problem with MMO's right now. People are to worried about themselves, leveling up their character, and getting the stuff done that they want to do. They do all this stuff with relatively no help from anyone becasue MMO's now are easy. Ohh do this quest, run to this location run back snooze.... Bang head on keyboard.... wake up..... ohh a 5 year old could do this. Boring.
Even everquest was hard without pk's that could kill you or take your stuff. Has anyone here had a team kill in a major dungeon and wondered how the hell you were going to get your stuff back. Naked running into the dungeon to try to get it back really sucked. That was adventure that was excitement. You played your best because you knew if you screwed up then it was likely that you could get a party wipe and have to try to recover your stuff.
The older MMO's were more focused on playing together, or we did that because the games were really tough to solo by yourself. Thats what kept me in the game. Meeting players so I could get help or help them because you almost had to group. Playing the game with others made the game fun. Its what tied me to the world more then anything....
Could not have put it better myself, thanks for bringing up good memories.
Now I do realize that the days of games such as Ultima Online are far behind (in their true form, Pre-Trammel times) because simply the genre is not hard-core enough for that. But once again, it seems to be either this or that and nowhere in between.
Just because a lot of games are what they are and people don't know better (because most people including myself do not have a very good imagination) does not mean that there aren't better forms of progression than leveling. And progression could be fun (and even funnier for those people who think the current norm is fun, lol).
GGrim said it well too, the status quo has to be challenged or the genre will stay the same and eventually these 300 USD Million games will stop coming out because they only get 2 million subscribers to play for a month or two.
And to be honest, the games I am looking forward to this year such as ArcheAge, Black Deserts Online, EQNext, Age of Wushu etc will most likely bore the shit out of people after a while when the game feels like you have already played it "through" (you shouldn't be able to play an MMORPG "through" IMO) so many times before.
I bet game publishers are thinking that this genre is dying and people are not interested in MMORPGS, well why don't you make an interesting MMORPG that isn't the same as the last one that failed miserably?
Originally posted by GGrimm The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.
I submit that any progress is leveling.
How would you have progression without some kind of level?
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by GGrimm The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.
I submit that any progress is leveling.
How would you have progression without some kind of level?
I agree. Unless he really is going to say zero progression then you end up with a very limited RPG.
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Originally posted by GGrimm The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.
I submit that any progress is leveling.
How would you have progression without some kind of level?
There are many forms of leveling. There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.
Originally posted by GGrimm The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.
I submit that any progress is leveling.
How would you have progression without some kind of level?
There are many forms of leveling. There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.
I"m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.
Didn't say there weren't many kinds of leveling. I'm stating that progression of any kind at all, is a level system. So the only thing to argue about is what kind of leveling we want.
I submit you cannot have progression without some kind of level. The very word progression means something higher, or something more or a different place which means there was a base to start from and you aren't there anymore.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by GGrimm The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.
I submit that any progress is leveling.
How would you have progression without some kind of level?
There are many forms of leveling. There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.
And then there's progression where it's you learning the game and it being built in such a way as to take it easy on you while you're still learning, such a progression system could have absolutely no levels and progression to be completely freeform (it could be story based, exploration based, crafting based, crafting in such a system would be all about experimenting to get the best items or the best possible not leveling a arbitrary level skill to unlock pwnboots of +50, etc).
The notion that progression = leveling is fundamentally flawed, leveling is just the simplest most rudimentary form of progression, progression is in itself evolution, the most obvious way to quantify evolution is with numbers but being obvious does not mean being good. The only reason people equate leveling with progression in RPG is because the original PC RPGs were at least inspired by D&D which used leveling as a metric for character progression but in D&D you can excuse this because it was already relatively hard to quantify leveling, if you added in a freeform evolution of character it would've made DMing damn near impossible but here's the thing we're not limited to Pen and Paper here, this is a medium where freeform evolution of a character is not only possible but would also be a massive improvement.
Originally posted by GGrimm The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.
I submit that any progress is leveling.
How would you have progression without some kind of level?
There are many forms of leveling. There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.
It is just semantic.
Call it a weapon "level", and when you get to level 3, you can use "X" weapon. THere .. it is a level.
More than one game has multiple types of levels (and call them so).
Originally posted by GGrimm The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.
I submit that any progress is leveling.
How would you have progression without some kind of level?
There are many forms of leveling. There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.
I"m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.
Didn't say there weren't many kinds of leveling. I'm stating that progression of any kind at all, is a level system. So the only thing to argue about is what kind of leveling we want.
I submit you cannot have progression without some kind of level. The very word progression means something higher, or something more or a different place which means there was a base to start from and you aren't there anymore.
I'm doing neither. Just suggesting that its not cut and dried, by pointing out that the measurement system is and can be varied.
Originally posted by GGrimm The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.
I submit that any progress is leveling.
How would you have progression without some kind of level?
There are many forms of leveling. There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.
And then there's progression where it's you learning the game and it being built in such a way as to take it easy on you while you're still learning, such a progression system could have absolutely no levels and progression to be completely freeform (it could be story based, exploration based, crafting based, crafting in such a system would be all about experimenting to get the best items or the best possible not leveling a arbitrary level skill to unlock pwnboots of +50, etc).
The notion that progression = leveling is fundamentally flawed, leveling is just the simplest most rudimentary form of progression, progression is in itself evolution, the most obvious way to quantify evolution is with numbers but being obvious does not mean being good. The only reason people equate leveling with progression in RPG is because the original PC RPGs were at least inspired by D&D which used leveling as a metric for character progression but in D&D you can excuse this because it was already relatively hard to quantify leveling, if you added in a freeform evolution of character it would've made DMing damn near impossible but here's the thing we're not limited to Pen and Paper here, this is a medium where freeform evolution of a character is not only possible but would also be a massive improvement.
I would say that everything you just described is a level, not called a level, but is arguably the same thing.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by GGrimm The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.
I submit that any progress is leveling.
How would you have progression without some kind of level?
There are many forms of leveling. There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.
I"m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.
Didn't say there weren't many kinds of leveling. I'm stating that progression of any kind at all, is a level system. So the only thing to argue about is what kind of leveling we want.
I submit you cannot have progression without some kind of level. The very word progression means something higher, or something more or a different place which means there was a base to start from and you aren't there anymore.
I'm doing neither. Just suggesting that its not cut and dried, by pointing out that the measurement system is and can be varied.
Maybe that is a good explaination, I kind of like it.
If there is a measurement system of any kind there is a level.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The concept of levels and leveling up was introduced what, almost 40 years ago. Levels have always signified becomming more powerful by acquiring more abilities, spells, or stats as you pass experience point thresholds by finishing tasks set forth by the Game Master. The concept is not new nor does it only appear in MMOs.
Like others have previously, experiences, companions, friends (new and old), ties us to the game world much stronger than anything else. How many of us have left a game because our firends stopped playing or our guildmates left, or our game expeirence is no longer fun? I bet this number is much higher than the number of people who quit because they changed a rule, made xp easier or harder, ....
The concept of levels and leveling up was introduced what, almost 40 years ago. Levels have always signified becomming more powerful by acquiring more abilities, spells, or stats as you pass experience point thresholds by finishing tasks set forth by the Game Master. The concept is not new nor does it only appear in MMOs.
Like others have previously, experiences, companions, friends (new and old), ties us to the game world much stronger than anything else. How many of us have left a game because our firends stopped playing or our guildmates left, or our game expeirence is no longer fun? I bet this number is much higher than the number of people who quit because they changed a rule, made xp easier or harder, ....
Leveling was introduced with the birth of Mankind.
The concept of levels and leveling up was introduced what, almost 40 years ago. Levels have always signified becomming more powerful by acquiring more abilities, spells, or stats as you pass experience point thresholds by finishing tasks set forth by the Game Master. The concept is not new nor does it only appear in MMOs.
Like others have previously, experiences, companions, friends (new and old), ties us to the game world much stronger than anything else. How many of us have left a game because our firends stopped playing or our guildmates left, or our game expeirence is no longer fun? I bet this number is much higher than the number of people who quit because they changed a rule, made xp easier or harder, ....
I think I'll change my stance. While I do think progression is very very important in MMO's and does make you feel more connected to your character. It is what you do to gain those levels that can make you feel more connected to the actual world.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by GGrimm The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.
I submit that any progress is leveling.
How would you have progression without some kind of level?
There are many forms of leveling. There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.
I"m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.
Didn't say there weren't many kinds of leveling. I'm stating that progression of any kind at all, is a level system. So the only thing to argue about is what kind of leveling we want.
I submit you cannot have progression without some kind of level. The very word progression means something higher, or something more or a different place which means there was a base to start from and you aren't there anymore.
You seem to be missing my point by pursuing a semantics discussion. To be clear, what I mean by Leveling is the gameplay common to just about every MMO. Level 1 -> earn experience -> DING Level 2. As you have said, there other ways to progress beyond this paradigm. That is the Leveling paradigm / assumption that should be challenged.
Originally posted by GGrimm The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.
I submit that any progress is leveling.
How would you have progression without some kind of level?
There are many forms of leveling. There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.
I"m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.
Didn't say there weren't many kinds of leveling. I'm stating that progression of any kind at all, is a level system. So the only thing to argue about is what kind of leveling we want.
I submit you cannot have progression without some kind of level. The very word progression means something higher, or something more or a different place which means there was a base to start from and you aren't there anymore.
You seem to be missing my point by pursuing a semantics discussion. To be clear, what I mean by Leveling is the gameplay common to just about every MMO. Level 1 -> earn experience -> DING Level 2. As you have said, there other ways to progress beyond this paradigm. That is the Leveling paradigm / assumption that should be challenged.
Class type levels, absolutely. But the OP brought up UO which had a different level system.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Why do gear based MMOs add levels with Xpacs? So you have to pay them a bit longer to lvl up more. That also makes your old leet gear you spent ages getting worthless. Now you have to grind for more leet gear. Wheel, Stick, Carrot. That is why LVLs of that type exist, to keep the marks playing and paying.
No, this is NOT why levels existed.
Do people seriously think this way? maybe do a little reflection on the origins of the genre.
Did levels exist in dungeons and dragons so people would play it longer?
Originally posted by XobdnasWhy do gear based MMOs add levels with Xpacs? So you have to pay them a bit longer to lvl up more. That also makes your old leet gear you spent ages getting worthless. Now you have to grind for more leet gear. Wheel, Stick, Carrot. That is why LVLs of that type exist, to keep the marks playing and paying.
No, this is NOT why levels existed.
Do people seriously think this way? maybe do a little reflection on the origins of the genre.
Did levels exist in dungeons and dragons so people would play it longer?
I'm not talking about what they were. A kinds of stuff in the universe was something else as one point or another. But here and now, this is what MMORPG lvls have become.
so you are saying MMOs add levels, which in the average MMO takes a player 2 days to a week, just to increase longevity?
You could *easily* do a gear reset without leveling, some games do it every patch.
Levels exist because people like progression, plain and simple. With new levels come new abilities, new builds,m and a power increase beyond simply gear.
Yes, you could do this without leveling but its still progression just the same. And people like progression.
Originally posted by GGrimm The assumption that Leveling must be part of any MMORPG needs to be challenged more often. Progress does not have to imply Leveling. Decouple the cocepts and you see more variety in MMORPGs.
I submit that any progress is leveling.
How would you have progression without some kind of level?
There are many forms of leveling. There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.
I"m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.
Didn't say there weren't many kinds of leveling. I'm stating that progression of any kind at all, is a level system. So the only thing to argue about is what kind of leveling we want.
I submit you cannot have progression without some kind of level. The very word progression means something higher, or something more or a different place which means there was a base to start from and you aren't there anymore.
You seem to be missing my point by pursuing a semantics discussion. To be clear, what I mean by Leveling is the gameplay common to just about every MMO. Level 1 -> earn experience -> DING Level 2. As you have said, there other ways to progress beyond this paradigm. That is the Leveling paradigm / assumption that should be challenged.
Class type levels, absolutely. But the OP brought up UO which had a different level system.
EVE is a good example where the popular Leveling paradigm has been abandoned for a character skills progression arrangement. The other key decision was to decouple skills progression with in-game play. That creates a system where your character learns/progresses/improves without you doing anything in particular in-game, effectively eliminating the dreaded "level grind". The player is freed to choose to play the game in whatever manner he/she thinks is actually FUN!
EVE is a good example where the popular Leveling paradigm has been abandoned for a character skills progression arrangement. The other key decision was to decouple skills progression with in-game play. That creates a system where your character learns/progresses/improves without you do anything in particular in-game, effectively eliminating the dreaded "level grind". The player is freed to choose to play the game in whatever manner he/she thinks is actually FUN!
How is that not brilliant?
While the EvE system has its merits, the drawback is you lose the immersion factor as well as the reward factor. In EvE you don't earn your skills. in a game like SWG to get good at using a pistol you had to actually use a pistol. in eve you just have to log off and go to sleep.
In theory a skill based system should not be a grind because you should be rewarded for what you like to do (like to use a 2 hand sword? youll get 2 hand sword skill). This always ends up sounding better on paper than in game though.
MMORPGs have progression to endgame aka levelling and endgame.
Some players only like the endgame. Some players like the levelling.
So how does a game maximize their playerbase?
Logically there are two options:
1) Fast leveling to endgame
2) Slow leveling to endgame
Option (1) was increasingly chosen by game devs over the last few years because the competitive types who prefer the endgame are competitive at forum pvp also but it *can't* logically work as has been proven again and again over the last few years because fast levelling in shallow worlds doesn't hold the levellers while the endgamers race to max level and then burn through content and move on to new games. The model fails at retaining both sets of players.
Option (2) can at least potentially hold onto the levellers (assuming the levelling content is done well) and holds the endgamers for the same amount of time as in option (1) (unless they quit before they get to max level).
Option (2) but with the ability for endgame type players with one max level character to start a new character already near to max level gives the best of both worlds. That way they only suffer (from their point of view) through the levelling process once.
Comments
It's a bit depressing to see how most MMO's are so singularly focused on only one aspect of the things that people enjoy in games - progression. Not that there is anything particularly wrong with progression but there are ALOT of other things that people enjoy in gaming (in general) aside from progression....
There is exploration, problem solving, socialization (in various forms), competition, narrative, creativity, etc.
Most MMO's seem to have pretty much defaulted on trying to address any of the above and seem almost entirely focused on progression. I find that rather sad and narrow-minded. Even many people that enjoy progression have a much wider range of interests then simply that.
I agree, while progression is very important, in fact I think it is a definining characteristic of a MMORPG, it is not the only thing that matters.
Reason being, one day the progression slows down or comes to a halt, and then player interest will start to wane unless there are other engaging activities to keep them entertained.
That's why a title like EVE is brilliant, the progression for a single character is almost limitless, even though I ran 3 accounts for almost 5 years, there are still dozens of ships I never could fly, items that I can't craft, places I can't go.
Many other titles suffer once the content /progression come to a close, with players deciding to move on.
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I don't play mmo's to level up. When I first started playing MMO's I did not really know what they were as I started playing Ultima Online when it first came out.
I was admittedly lost when I first came into the game. Back then there were counselors that helped you out if you needed to ask a question. I pushed help and one appeared to help me. I started to ask them questions because I did not know what was going on in the game. I asked, "What do you do in this game?". The counselor replied, "Really anything you want." They went into alot of explaination on what I could do from being a fisherman, cook, warrior, mage, treasure hunter, etc. I told the counselor I wanted to smith. He then proceeded to show me how to mine and then smith so I could make items.
I started to mine and smelt ingots and talk to people. I met a few people in game, and we would go out, mine together, and just chat together. It did not feel like I was leveling as we were playing the game together in a group.
One person I played with talked me into making a warrior character so we could go to dungeons and play together. I ended up making a warrior character and joining a guild. We would all go to dungeon's for protection because if you would go alone you might get pked. It was alot of fun knowing that at any moment a pk could come and you could loose your stuff. Yes loosing your stuff sucked, but you could replace it rather easily.
I have many fond memories of PLAYING THE GAME WITH OTHERS OVER WORRYING ABOUT LEVELING MY CHARACTER. If you wanted to go explore you would grab a friend because it was always safer in numbers going out to do things. If you do not have someone to play the game with and talk to then its just not an MMO. It is a single player game with other people in the world doing their own thing.
When I was out playing with other people it was the best time I had in any mmo. You could go out with a group of players and not really be that good because they would help you out if you needed help fighting something. There was not levels per say to worry about. You could go out with help from others and go pretty much anywhere.
Then Trammel came and dumbed down the game, and everyone wanted to do their own thing because there was really no worries about dieing any longer so really no one wanted to play the game together any longer. To me it just ruined the game. I play MMO's to play with other people and if I wanted to play a game by myself I would just play a consol game.
Sorry leveling up was never a major concern for me and did not tie me into the world really at all. Thats the problem with MMO's right now. People are to worried about themselves, leveling up their character, and getting the stuff done that they want to do. They do all this stuff with relatively no help from anyone becasue MMO's now are easy. Ohh do this quest, run to this location run back snooze.... Bang head on keyboard.... wake up..... ohh a 5 year old could do this. Boring.
Even everquest was hard without pk's that could kill you or take your stuff. Has anyone here had a team kill in a major dungeon and wondered how the hell you were going to get your stuff back. Naked running into the dungeon to try to get it back really sucked. That was adventure that was excitement. You played your best because you knew if you screwed up then it was likely that you could get a party wipe and have to try to recover your stuff.
The older MMO's were more focused on playing together, or we did that because the games were really tough to solo by yourself. Thats what kept me in the game. Meeting players so I could get help or help them because you almost had to group. Playing the game with others made the game fun. Its what tied me to the world more then anything....
Could not have put it better myself, thanks for bringing up good memories.
Now I do realize that the days of games such as Ultima Online are far behind (in their true form, Pre-Trammel times) because simply the genre is not hard-core enough for that. But once again, it seems to be either this or that and nowhere in between.
Just because a lot of games are what they are and people don't know better (because most people including myself do not have a very good imagination) does not mean that there aren't better forms of progression than leveling. And progression could be fun (and even funnier for those people who think the current norm is fun, lol).
GGrim said it well too, the status quo has to be challenged or the genre will stay the same and eventually these 300 USD Million games will stop coming out because they only get 2 million subscribers to play for a month or two.
And to be honest, the games I am looking forward to this year such as ArcheAge, Black Deserts Online, EQNext, Age of Wushu etc will most likely bore the shit out of people after a while when the game feels like you have already played it "through" (you shouldn't be able to play an MMORPG "through" IMO) so many times before.
I bet game publishers are thinking that this genre is dying and people are not interested in MMORPGS, well why don't you make an interesting MMORPG that isn't the same as the last one that failed miserably?
I submit that any progress is leveling.
How would you have progression without some kind of level?
I agree. Unless he really is going to say zero progression then you end up with a very limited RPG.
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There are many forms of leveling. There are the "ding" I'm now level 3 types, and there are the skill training complete, I can now use "X" weapon.
I"m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.
Didn't say there weren't many kinds of leveling. I'm stating that progression of any kind at all, is a level system. So the only thing to argue about is what kind of leveling we want.
I submit you cannot have progression without some kind of level. The very word progression means something higher, or something more or a different place which means there was a base to start from and you aren't there anymore.
And then there's progression where it's you learning the game and it being built in such a way as to take it easy on you while you're still learning, such a progression system could have absolutely no levels and progression to be completely freeform (it could be story based, exploration based, crafting based, crafting in such a system would be all about experimenting to get the best items or the best possible not leveling a arbitrary level skill to unlock pwnboots of +50, etc).
The notion that progression = leveling is fundamentally flawed, leveling is just the simplest most rudimentary form of progression, progression is in itself evolution, the most obvious way to quantify evolution is with numbers but being obvious does not mean being good. The only reason people equate leveling with progression in RPG is because the original PC RPGs were at least inspired by D&D which used leveling as a metric for character progression but in D&D you can excuse this because it was already relatively hard to quantify leveling, if you added in a freeform evolution of character it would've made DMing damn near impossible but here's the thing we're not limited to Pen and Paper here, this is a medium where freeform evolution of a character is not only possible but would also be a massive improvement.
It is just semantic.
Call it a weapon "level", and when you get to level 3, you can use "X" weapon. THere .. it is a level.
More than one game has multiple types of levels (and call them so).
I'm doing neither. Just suggesting that its not cut and dried, by pointing out that the measurement system is and can be varied.
I would say that everything you just described is a level, not called a level, but is arguably the same thing.
Maybe that is a good explaination, I kind of like it.
If there is a measurement system of any kind there is a level.
The concept of levels and leveling up was introduced what, almost 40 years ago. Levels have always signified becomming more powerful by acquiring more abilities, spells, or stats as you pass experience point thresholds by finishing tasks set forth by the Game Master. The concept is not new nor does it only appear in MMOs.
Like others have previously, experiences, companions, friends (new and old), ties us to the game world much stronger than anything else. How many of us have left a game because our firends stopped playing or our guildmates left, or our game expeirence is no longer fun? I bet this number is much higher than the number of people who quit because they changed a rule, made xp easier or harder, ....
Leveling was introduced with the birth of Mankind.
I think I'll change my stance. While I do think progression is very very important in MMO's and does make you feel more connected to your character. It is what you do to gain those levels that can make you feel more connected to the actual world.
You seem to be missing my point by pursuing a semantics discussion. To be clear, what I mean by Leveling is the gameplay common to just about every MMO. Level 1 -> earn experience -> DING Level 2. As you have said, there other ways to progress beyond this paradigm. That is the Leveling paradigm / assumption that should be challenged.
Class type levels, absolutely. But the OP brought up UO which had a different level system.
No, this is NOT why levels existed.
Do people seriously think this way? maybe do a little reflection on the origins of the genre.
Did levels exist in dungeons and dragons so people would play it longer?
so you are saying MMOs add levels, which in the average MMO takes a player 2 days to a week, just to increase longevity?
You could *easily* do a gear reset without leveling, some games do it every patch.
Levels exist because people like progression, plain and simple. With new levels come new abilities, new builds,m and a power increase beyond simply gear.
Yes, you could do this without leveling but its still progression just the same. And people like progression.
EVE is a good example where the popular Leveling paradigm has been abandoned for a character skills progression arrangement. The other key decision was to decouple skills progression with in-game play. That creates a system where your character learns/progresses/improves without you doing anything in particular in-game, effectively eliminating the dreaded "level grind". The player is freed to choose to play the game in whatever manner he/she thinks is actually FUN!
How is that not brilliant?
While the EvE system has its merits, the drawback is you lose the immersion factor as well as the reward factor. In EvE you don't earn your skills. in a game like SWG to get good at using a pistol you had to actually use a pistol. in eve you just have to log off and go to sleep.
In theory a skill based system should not be a grind because you should be rewarded for what you like to do (like to use a 2 hand sword? youll get 2 hand sword skill). This always ends up sounding better on paper than in game though.
MMORPGs have progression to endgame aka levelling and endgame.
Some players only like the endgame. Some players like the levelling.
So how does a game maximize their playerbase?
Logically there are two options:
1) Fast leveling to endgame
2) Slow leveling to endgame
Option (1) was increasingly chosen by game devs over the last few years because the competitive types who prefer the endgame are competitive at forum pvp also but it *can't* logically work as has been proven again and again over the last few years because fast levelling in shallow worlds doesn't hold the levellers while the endgamers race to max level and then burn through content and move on to new games. The model fails at retaining both sets of players.
Option (2) can at least potentially hold onto the levellers (assuming the levelling content is done well) and holds the endgamers for the same amount of time as in option (1) (unless they quit before they get to max level).
Option (2) but with the ability for endgame type players with one max level character to start a new character already near to max level gives the best of both worlds. That way they only suffer (from their point of view) through the levelling process once.
Leveling does not equal RPG. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who knows this.
Then again I'm sure the people who will try to refute this will also believe that Castlevania 2 was better than the Original Castlevania.