I think the lack of AH is a pretty dumb move. Unless they make the stall searching like 99% of an AH. Then why bother with stalls?
There are certain lines drawn between "immersive reality" and pure gameplay functionality. And the AH/player shop is one of those choices where functionality simply wins.
The only way I can see it implemented in a relevant fashion is if you have an AH function in the city/town or whatever for the main trading, and then still enable players to run independent shops on top of that on the battlefield (for consumables at higher prices, etc).
However, that becomes irrelevant unless the players have limited bag space, since they can just stock up in town.
Camelot Unchained is basically going to be a fantasy version of EvE. A Sandbox RvR MMO with no structured PvE content along the lines of WoW, RIFT, LotRO, etc.
However, that becomes irrelevant unless the players have limited bag space, since they can just stock up in town.
Horray for going to the battlefield with 20 potions of healing, 3 cakes, two helmets and a chainmail in your backpack and bags, and still run and fight at normal pace
I guess that if you dont have an AH one can actually run a playershop. No point in that with an AH. I can see the pros with an AH. I'm lazy so for me I'd love an AH, or Even better just a menu-AH so I didnt Even have too walk too it either. Location based shops are so old fashion.
I didn't enjoy DAoC or Warhammer ( I was more of a UO / FFXI player ), but I can respect when a person makes a game he/she would want to play regardless if it isn't mainstream or not. In fact, this is a dream I had once, one of those fantasy like dreams that would never happen. Perhaps one that many gamers get in that, if they have billions of dollars, they would say "screw it, money makes money, here's $900,000,000 to make -my- perfect vision of a game. We'll have a community that helps develop it and say what they want if my original vision fits with their own, and as long as it pays for itself, I don't expect to have hundreds of thousands of subs or to even make my money back." While I'm sure making the money back is still important in reality, it's something I would like a billionaire gamer to do with the guidance of industry veterans or something in the future (the number is obviously too much, but it was an example).
It's one reason I was kind've sad to see 38 studios go under as the man put most of his savings into making that company and the MMO. Though it also showed us that the need of Industry Veterans are needed so mismanagement would be less of a possibility with the millions it takes. It will be interesting to see what someone can do in this day and age without investors or big publishers demanding they go certain directions. I'm even interested in Shroud of the Avatar for this reason, even if it really isn't all that much of an MMO by the way they described it (but it may be referred to as such at some point, as the blur between multiplayer and massively multiplayer is starting to blur as consoles catch up and the norm is established). In that case, Shroud seems to be ahead of it's time.
But I digress, this game is very much for a nice group of players. Housing will have "safe" areas where it won't be able to be torn down, with high rewards for those who build in areas where they are. As a big fan of housing in MMOs I don't think I would ever make a house where it could be burned down, simply because of the investment I put into houses. I spend months and months getting it the way I like in most cases. I would just be simply heartbroken if it was burnt down.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
I think the lack of AH is a pretty dumb move. Unless they make the stall searching like 99% of an AH. Then why bother with stalls?
There are certain lines drawn between "immersive reality" and pure gameplay functionality. And the AH/player shop is one of those choices where functionality simply wins.
The only way I can see it implemented in a relevant fashion is if you have an AH function in the city/town or whatever for the main trading, and then still enable players to run independent shops on top of that on the battlefield (for consumables at higher prices, etc).
However, that becomes irrelevant unless the players have limited bag space, since they can just stock up in town.
Auction Houses are not a necessity and are surely controversial. Diablo 3 is a very much in your face example of how, sometimes, Auction Houses can kill a game.
MJ has a very good reason for not including Auction Houses in his game and I think it will make the game much more enjoyable and rewarding to not be able to just walk up to a place and buy whatever I want all the time.
No auction house? players having to sit there to sell crap?, no npc drops? I don't know about you but I think these are all really stupid idea's that I pray get changed or else the game just won't make it. I'm sorry but I dispise the stall system for selling your goods, it drove me nuts in f2p games always having to run from stall to stall to check it just takes way to long.
This is from a post on pc gamer. From someone posting about the game in a ESO video comment at the bottom.
·Camelot Unchained features a totally player-driven economy. There won’t be drops from the NPCs, no redeemable tokens or anything like that.
·There will be no auction house for player-created items. Crafters can have their own stores and either sell there or directly to players in a bazaar-like setting.
·Crafters will be able to build a wide variety of items, including weapons, armor, siege equipment and more.
·Our housing system will allow players to construct everything from huts to mines, and to fortify and rebuild massive structures.
·Players will be able to build structures throughout the world, in both safe and contested areas.
The housing system sounds great, but the player driven ecnomy with no npc drops, and no auction house is just setting up for disaster. No tokens is fine but at least have npc drops, and the ah.
Anyway is this stuff true? are they really going to make this stupid of a move in todays mmo market? Whats wrong with selling drops you get from npcs in an auction house? it works in so many games, why the decision to make it use some archaic pain in the ass system when there is far better systems available?
Unless they do it like ff14 did, where there are market wards and your actually able to search for what your looking for and it'll tell you who is selling it, and lead you to them, it also lists the price from lowest to highest amoung others who are selling it. Game still has npc drops though.
I also hope that other players won't be able to destroy your creations because that would suck after spending probally alot of time to make what you have.
Needless to say if this stuff is true, I just lost alot of hope/faith in this game, fully player driven economys in games don't really work well today.
You know, way back, games didn't have auction houses and people actually TALKED to each other in order to sell items. It was pretty neat.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Originally posted by Hjamnr From your OP, I don't believe that this game is for you. I wish you luck with games that are designed the way you like.(And I mean this seriously.)
Absolutely true. Luckily for the OP, there are an endless assortment of options. For the rest of us, I'm thankful to Mr. Jacobs for having this vision.
Isn't it odd how every MMO player wants a game tailored precisely to their invidual vision (generally a vision expressed by their favorite olde game), and no other ideas need apply?
I dunno, first couple of pages of this thread just seem entirely too hostile. I know, ya'll are going to get really tired of fighting off the "invaders" and preserving the 'purity of Mark's vision' for the next half a dozen years, but I think you've maybe circled the wagons just a little too early, this time.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
MJ has a very good reason for not including Auction Houses in his game
I don't think the reasoning he has given is very good.
and I think it will make the game much more enjoyable and rewarding to not be able to just walk up to a place and buy whatever I want all the time.
Except I really do just want to walk up and buy whatever I want so I can get back to actually playing the game, instead of playing a dumbass market-hunt simulation.
Unless they do it like ff14 did, where there are market wards and your actually able to search for what your looking for and it'll tell you who is selling it, and lead you to them, it also lists the price from lowest to highest amoung others who are selling it.
^^^
The best part is that this is what player shops turn into, which is the EXACT same thing as an AH, except more tedious due to having to run around for no goddamn reason.
You know, way back, games didn't have auction houses and people actually TALKED to each other in order to sell items. It was pretty neat.
People still talk to each other in the AH era in order to make faster sells, cheaper sells, faster and higher buys.
Originally posted by Hjamnr From your OP, I don't believe that this game is for you. I wish you luck with games that are designed the way you like.(And I mean this seriously.)
Absolutely true. Luckily for the OP, there are an endless assortment of options. For the rest of us, I'm thankful to Mr. Jacobs for having this vision.
Isn't it odd how every MMO player wants a game tailored precisely to their invidual vision (generally a vision expressed by their favorite olde game), and no other ideas need apply?
I dunno, first couple of pages of this thread just seem entirely too hostile. I know, ya'll are going to get really tired of fighting off the "invaders" and preserving the 'purity of Mark's vision' for the next half a dozen years, but I think you've maybe circled the wagons just a little too early, this time.
Keep in mind this isn't just another game coming out. The game isn't even halfway through the KS project and yet Mark has made the KS backer community feel more involved in the game than I have ever seen before. That has led to the feeling of ownership by the community and a sense of family. The KS Comments are truly a sight behold - already at just under 25k comments.
The OP's first sentence was a bit trollish in that the whole point of the game is no PvE and he either doesn't understand that without PvE you can't have NPC drops or he is acting like not having NPC drops amounts to not having color. It was a little like getting on the Eve forums and going No First Person??
Originally posted by SmudgePudge It was a little like getting on the Eve forums and going No First Person??
Shrug. More of the same, every title gets this. Anyway...shouldn't interfere with the ForumPVP, I guess. Sorry ya'll.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
MJ has a very good reason for not including Auction Houses in his game
I don't think the reasoning he has given is very good.
and I think it will make the game much more enjoyable and rewarding to not be able to just walk up to a place and buy whatever I want all the time.
Except I really do just want to walk up and buy whatever I want so I can get back to actually playing the game, instead of playing a dumbass market-hunt simulation.
Unless they do it like ff14 did, where there are market wards and your actually able to search for what your looking for and it'll tell you who is selling it, and lead you to them, it also lists the price from lowest to highest amoung others who are selling it.
^^^
The best part is that this is what player shops turn into, which is the EXACT same thing as an AH, except more tedious due to having to run around for no goddamn reason.
You know, way back, games didn't have auction houses and people actually TALKED to each other in order to sell items. It was pretty neat.
People still talk to each other in the AH era in order to make faster sells, cheaper sells, faster and higher buys.
The difference is that it's not mandatory.
If you don't think his reason for not including AHs is a good one than this definitely ain't the game for you. Besides the social benefits of not having an AH (I'll simply ignore your comment about people talking in the AH since you are either trolling or have never actually used an AH) Diablo 3 very much proved the fact that AH's diminsh the overall value of items in a game. It's simple supply and demand - make something easy to get and it's value goes down.
I also think that people are applying their experiences from other games to what they expect their experience will be in CU and it's a bit of a trap. You will only be able to buy items from other players or make your own. Very few, if any, games have done this. Auction houses cater to the easymode player base because they are an easy way for those players to acquire an item without having to farm for it.
Originally posted by SmudgePudge It was a little like getting on the Eve forums and going No First Person??
Shrug. More of the same, every title gets this. Anyway...shouldn't interfere with the ForumPVP, I guess. Sorry ya'll.
Which is why every forum gets trolls. The fact that you specifically have to come to the CU forum to post something like that makes the intentions of the OP questionable. Although he does come around to actually posing questions, he ends his post in a very closeminded way.
If you don't think his reason for not including AHs is a good one than this definitely ain't the game for you. Besides the social benefits of not having an AH (I'll simply ignore your comment about people talking in the AH since you are either trolling or have never actually used an AH) Diablo 3 very much proved the fact that AH's diminsh the overall value of items in a game. It's simple supply and demand - make something easy to get and it's value goes down.
I also think that people are applying their experiences from other games to what they expect their experience will be in CU and it's a bit of a trap. You will only be able to buy items from other players or make your own. Very few, if any, games have done this. Auction houses cater to the easymode player base because they are an easy way for those players to acquire an item without having to farm for it.
I've played no MMORPG with an AH where chat was silent of people trying to sell under the AH, buy over the AH, buy in bulk for discount, sell in bulk for discount (or profit)*.
AHs cost overhead, and people with exceptional cases will always try to sell manually. With any relevant level of player population, manual selling in trade chat is something that will occur continuously.
In terms of other games ... I've played most MMORPGs that have been released in the US. There's not a single player shop system that I've liked. [mod edit] NONE of them promoted any sort of "socialization". The only result was frustration in finding what you were looking for, and how much time they drained away from actually playing the game. With a bonus graphical load / spam in cities (and a metric asston of superfluous floating text).
It's funny that you mention the social benefits btw. What social benefit do you get out of a player shop NPC? Is the player there? No. Facepalm. Are you going to chat up a bot? >_<
* Aside from GW2, since GW2 trading is extemely limited by intentional design, and features no actual secure trading mechanic.
AH make everything to easy. It should be a struggle to get certain things, if you put in a AH, crafters don't ever have to do anything, CU is not about that at all. Its about rvr and supporting it. Not buying 500 silk in bulk and sitting idle for 6 hours straight making dozens of them for selling making 1 cent profit on each. THAT is dumb MMO planing.
AH make everything to easy. It should be a struggle to get certain things, if you put in a AH, crafters don't ever have to do anything, CU is not about that at all. Its about rvr and supporting it. Not buying 500 silk in bulk and sitting idle for 6 hours straight making dozens of them for selling making 1 cent profit on each. THAT is dumb MMO planing.
AH make sense in some games, just not this one.
You sound like that's any different from buying 500 silk from player shops that you searched for via the not-AH-but-still-indexes-and-searches-500-player-shops NPC, then running around for 20 minutes, then sitting idle for 6 hours straight making dozens of them for selling on your player shop making 1 cent profit on each.
Edit: Or without a search, it involves you running around for 3 hours between player shops to buy your 500 silk.
Originally posted by skyexileim confused, why you need NPC drops and an auction house ingame?When im in need of lets say some 2x4 beams for construction I dont go out and pop some caps in somebody hoping maybe they will drop them, nor do i goto an auction house for them, i goto a store...and buy them...
While I don't find anything wrong with what CU plans to do because of the type of game it will be, your analogy is very off...
is it? The OP made the argument that you need NPC drops for an economy, however in the real world where we have a functioning economy(heh) items are made from base materials and manufactured or refined for resale in stores. I don't see how the analogy is off.
Yes, because the game will be filled with home depots, starbucks and ben & jerrys!! In real life you know where to go for something or search for it. Game worlds don't work the same way. There is a reason there are action houses in game, they make life as easy as going to walmart in real life.
First of all there is nothing easy about going to Walmart. That's like saying it's easy to out with the ugly 300lb girl because she is easy to pick up ... you still have to stomach her.
Game worlds have worked that way ... in obviously games you never played. By typing the words "they make life easy" you clearly show you won't want to play a RvR game. Removing reasons why players need to move around the world destroys an RvR game. There may be other approaches considered like a market board showing you where stuff is and perhaps even reserving it ... but you would have to travel to pick it up.
Let's please not forget here that this game isn't supposed to be like the other mmos. Everytime you start out a thought with something like "but most mmos have it now" give yourself a shake and remember CU is trying to make a 100% RvR game ... not a 'reach level cap and sit in cities never having to move unless a queue pops' mmo.
Im not complaining about the game or the idea of not having Auction Houses. I'm simply talking about his analogy, there is a reason why Auction Houses exist and he was trying to paint the picture that a game with no AH is just as good as in real life but the two are very different and the comparison is pretty much rediculous.
So please read and understand before you start getting defensive at people that are NOT talking about your beloved game.
I have neither pledged money nor said I would commit to this play this game when it comes out. I have only ever dicussed the subject matter at hand. Calling me a fanboy is a mistake. I defend the right of an idea being nurtured ... that is all.
Now that that is out of the way ...
Many here, including myself have clearly stated that other methods of searching items globally may very well exist but when a game has AN ENTIRE PILLAR of gameplay that is 1/3 of the entire game then throwing in a conventional AH fundamentally destroys this concept. How hard is this to understand?
Your defense of an AH for a class that is designed to be an active participant within the entire game world is so daft as to be called asinine. By that logic (and your love of analogies) you are ok with RvR fighting classes being able to kill their enemies from the confort of a large and safe city. BTW the proper analogy would be ordering online and not going to a store. Taking 1 step outside your door is an analogy of defending the lack of an AH.
Other games have indeed done things differently and they worked well in differing ways. To defend the traditional AH design without taking into account the dramatically different elements brought about by adding a pure crafter class, %100 player driven acconomy and 1/3 of the entire game design is a messure of pure ignorance. I have no clue of the final solution within CU if it gets made but one must consider that is trying to be accomplished and what an AH provides and takes away from the idea. A traditional AH clearly creates some large problems and detracts from the core philosophy of the game.
If someone wants goods delivered to their door then the crafter can provide delivery service perhaps. This is up the the players to decide by actually playing the game instead of conveniences destroying player options as is the trend in mmos.
Do you know why todays mmos have conveniences? Most AREN'T because players wanted them. You have simply been brainwashed into thinking that:
1. Instanced gameplay. You think players wanted this? No it is because game engines couldn't handle such large player numbers so instancing was introduced everywhere. It isn't to protect your sensitive fealings from fear of interacting with so many people. You simply got used to it and lost the original vision of what an mmo is about.
2. Instance/group finders. See above. This is a byproduct of direction of game design. Developers failed in making an actual mmo so now had to bandaid all the new and growing problems.
3. Auction Houses. Created because crafting was never actually anything more than a mini-game with little impact and loot now game through a random drop mechanic and gear race which was the new carrot on a stick for today's mmos. This wasn't always the case in all mmos and getting used to an AH is a reflection of getting used to a different style of game. CU isn't that style of game.
If you can't step outside the box ... stay in the box.
If you don't think his reason for not including AHs is a good one than this definitely ain't the game for you. Besides the social benefits of not having an AH (I'll simply ignore your comment about people talking in the AH since you are either trolling or have never actually used an AH) Diablo 3 very much proved the fact that AH's diminsh the overall value of items in a game. It's simple supply and demand - make something easy to get and it's value goes down.
I also think that people are applying their experiences from other games to what they expect their experience will be in CU and it's a bit of a trap. You will only be able to buy items from other players or make your own. Very few, if any, games have done this. Auction houses cater to the easymode player base because they are an easy way for those players to acquire an item without having to farm for it.
I've played no MMORPG with an AH where chat was silent of people trying to sell under the AH, buy over the AH, buy in bulk for discount, sell in bulk for discount (or profit)*.
AHs cost overhead, and people with exceptional cases will always try to sell manually. With any relevant level of player population, manual selling in trade chat is something that will occur continuously.
In terms of other games ... I've played most MMORPGs that have been released in the US. There's not a single player shop system that I've liked. [mod edit] NONE of them promoted any sort of "socialization". The only result was frustration in finding what you were looking for, and how much time they drained away from actually playing the game. With a bonus graphical load / spam in cities (and a metric asston of superfluous floating text).
It's funny that you mention the social benefits btw. What social benefit do you get out of a player shop NPC? Is the player there? No. Facepalm. Are you going to chat up a bot? >_<
* Aside from GW2, since GW2 trading is extemely limited by intentional design, and features no actual secure trading mechanic.
lol - I don't consider WTB and WTS advertisements spammed in all chat or even trade as 'social conversation'.
Hopefully player stalls will be populated with real people a lot of the times. CSE can certainly promote this by giving crafters incentives for actually being in their stall. Having to go to the bazaar and talk to crafters in order to buy your gear is certainly more social than seeing a WTS ad in chat and then loading up the AH. If a crafters stall is where he actually crafts then there should be no reason for people to not get most of their gear from the actual player themselves.
I think most games, because of all the loot drops, require players to be buying and selling a LOT. So when people hear that you will have to go to a specific place and talk to an actual person they freak out saying they are going to be spending all their time tracking gear down. If you think about how often you actually switch out gear even in a game with drops, it's not every 5 minutes. Now remove the drops and you are going to be shopping a whole lot less than in other games.
I imagine CU to be way more - buy gear you can afford, figure out what upgrades you need, kill enemies for gold or npc's for the resources needed, go get your upgrades. It's going to be much more simple than the current model of actually making your money off the drops which means you 'farming' trips interrupted by selling trips back to the city.
I'm also on the contra-AH side, and i think MJ's reasons for this design choice are valid. Sure, it may be considered an annoyance to actually go to a shop to pick up your item, but it's a great plus for RP gameplay and adds content & opportunity for the crafters/shop owners.
I'd like to take SWG as a reference for great Housing, Crafting and Market systems. The system allowed good crafters to stand out of the crowd. After a while of locating & buying items through the bazaar search, you'd eventually figure out who the top crafters on your server were. They'd have beatuifully decorated guild halls as shops, in prominent and easy-to reach locations, with well layed out NPC vendors for different item types, keeping them stocked with high-quality items. It was a sight to behold and a pleasure to shop there. You might even run into the man running it all, and have an inspiring chat, and you'd know who to go to for special requests. Only the best few could continuously deliver on such a high level, and they were certainly busy doing so. After all, crafters wasn't just a sidetrack to your normal PvP/PvE, it was a viable main occupation, similar to what's planned for Camelot Unchained.
This is an incredibly deep and immersive part of gameplay that an Auction House negates completely. The AH puts every crafter on the same level. You'd rob the good crafters of their well deserved recognition and reduce them to a name amongst thousands of others selling the same type of item. You could just stand still and buy together whatever you need from who's selling it the cheapest. There's no pride in being a crafter in such a system...
And if it's really THAT annoying to walk a couple of minutes to buy something, you could always pay someone to pick stuff up for you
MJ has a very good reason for not including Auction Houses in his game
I don't think the reasoning he has given is very good.
and I think it will make the game much more enjoyable and rewarding to not be able to just walk up to a place and buy whatever I want all the time.
Except I really do just want to walk up and buy whatever I want so I can get back to actually playing the game, instead of playing a dumbass market-hunt simulation.
Unless they do it like ff14 did, where there are market wards and your actually able to search for what your looking for and it'll tell you who is selling it, and lead you to them, it also lists the price from lowest to highest amoung others who are selling it.
^^^
The best part is that this is what player shops turn into, which is the EXACT same thing as an AH, except more tedious due to having to run around for no goddamn reason.
You know, way back, games didn't have auction houses and people actually TALKED to each other in order to sell items. It was pretty neat.
People still talk to each other in the AH era in order to make faster sells, cheaper sells, faster and higher buys.
The difference is that it's not mandatory.
easymodex I also must point out that you are almost counter-arguing yourself between this thread and the 'Economy' thread. In the Economy thread you bring up an excellence point about CU being able to go with a 'low' gold system because there will be no loot drops. You go on further to say that the system could almost be pure barter but that would be tedious so you need some currency but not much. The setup you are describing would not really support an Auction House and it surely wouldn't fit in with the lore.
Why go to all that trouble in setting up an Auction House in a low gold economy?
lol - I don't consider WTB and WTS advertisements spammed in all chat or even trade as 'social conversation'.
I consider the discussion around the prices and the whispered tells, discussion, and negotiation to be social conversation.
Because anything beyond that is pure Roleplay and IDGAF about the RP server.
Hopefully player stalls will be populated with real people a lot of the times.
Hopefully not because that sounds like the most boring gameplay I've ever heard of.
Note: you can still do this in an AH system. You stand next to the AH and /say WTS [whatever the hell you're selling].
Having to go to the bazaar and talk to crafters in order to buy your gear is certainly more social than seeing a WTS ad in chat and then loading up the AH.
You're not thinking / expressing clearly -- you are using an event that happens in both examples to justify one option:
In both systems, I will "/TRADE WTB 100% QUAL SWORD, HAVE MATS". No difference. When I want something custom or for a lower price (e.g. I have my own mats), I will look for a player.
In the AH system, I will walk to the AH to buy commodities (e.g. the metal).
In a player shop system, I will wonder aimlessly looking at floating text to buy the metal.
There's no fundamental difference except the amount of time I wasted with the player shop system (and how pissed I get when I go another screen and see the goddamn metal for cheaper than what I paid for).
easymodex I also must point out that you are almost counter-arguing yourself between this thread and the 'Economy' thread. In the Economy thread you bring up an excellence point about CU being able to go with a 'low' gold system because there will be no loot drops. You go on further to say that the system could almost be pure barter but that would be tedious so you need some currency but not much. The setup you are describing would not really support an Auction House and it surely wouldn't fit in with the lore.
Why go to all that trouble in setting up an Auction House in a low gold economy?
Separate issues. Economy -- WHAT you're trading -- is separate from the AH/playershop. E.g. HOW you trade.
Low gold has to do with (a) gold intake [from NPCs / trash loot from NPCs] and material intake from the same NPCs from issued from your realm via points, and (b) the amount of gold drain into the system via repair / training costs / respecs / wood-stone for keep repairs / otherstuffthatcostsmoney.
E.g. you don't need mobs to drop tons of trash loot and drop tons of coin if you don't have to spend it on lots of random stuff. Specifically, if they drop materials you won't have much stuff to sell as often. But, you will still need abstract currency (coin). And when you have that coin you can purchase stuff ... via a goddamn AH because I want to go kill people in RvR, not run around for hours looking at stupid player shop text.
easymodex I also must point out that you are almost counter-arguing yourself between this thread and the 'Economy' thread. In the Economy thread you bring up an excellence point about CU being able to go with a 'low' gold system because there will be no loot drops. You go on further to say that the system could almost be pure barter but that would be tedious so you need some currency but not much. The setup you are describing would not really support an Auction House and it surely wouldn't fit in with the lore.
Why go to all that trouble in setting up an Auction House in a low gold economy?
Separate issues. Economy -- WHAT you're trading -- is separate from the AH/playershop. E.g. HOW you trade.
Low gold has to do with (a) gold intake [from NPCs / trash loot from NPCs] and material intake from the same NPCs from issued from your realm via points, and (b) the amount of gold drain into the system via repair / training costs / respecs / wood-stone for keep repairs / otherstuffthatcostsmoney.
E.g. you don't need mobs to drop tons of trash loot and drop tons of coin if you don't have to spend it on lots of random stuff. Specifically, if they drop materials you won't have much stuff to sell as often. But, you will still need abstract currency (coin). And when you have that coin you can purchase stuff ... via a goddamn AH because I want to go kill people in RvR, not run around for hours looking at stupid player shop text.
Well, we are going to have to disagree on this my friend. If you think that the AH and the economy are two separate issues you are kidding yourself though. If you have an AH, that is how goods in your economy flow. If you removed the AH from Diablo 3 tomorrow, for example, the economy crashes. Anything that is responsible for goods flowing through your economy is of course directly tied to your economy.
You took only my first sentence about crafter stalls and quoted on it - completely taking it out of context. You work for the media? I went on to say that if player stalls were also where you crafted then no problem. It wouldn't be boring unless you considered crafting boring.
This idea that you keep bringing up of conversation centered around the AH is misleading. You go to the AH to search through it and buy things, not to talk to people. Even if the impetus of you traveling to the AH was a WTS ad - you still aren't talking to someone. If you then can't find what you want, well guess what? You are no longer using the AH lol. You are now using social mechanisms to get your goods. Dang, that sounds a lot like a bazaar doesn't it?
Digital Auction Houses use clickable menu's to sell you things. The idea that any conversation is going on is quite ridiculous.
Comments
@OP
The game is not for everyone.. there are plenty of games out there with AH and PVE loot.. you can play those.
I think the lack of AH is a pretty dumb move. Unless they make the stall searching like 99% of an AH. Then why bother with stalls?
There are certain lines drawn between "immersive reality" and pure gameplay functionality. And the AH/player shop is one of those choices where functionality simply wins.
The only way I can see it implemented in a relevant fashion is if you have an AH function in the city/town or whatever for the main trading, and then still enable players to run independent shops on top of that on the battlefield (for consumables at higher prices, etc).
However, that becomes irrelevant unless the players have limited bag space, since they can just stock up in town.
To use an example people might understand:
Camelot Unchained is basically going to be a fantasy version of EvE. A Sandbox RvR MMO with no structured PvE content along the lines of WoW, RIFT, LotRO, etc.
Waiting: CU, WildStar, Destiny, Eternal Crusade
Playing: ESO,DCUO
Played: LotRO,RIFT,ToR,Warhammer, Runescape
Horray for going to the battlefield with 20 potions of healing, 3 cakes, two helmets and a chainmail in your backpack and bags, and still run and fight at normal pace
I guess that if you dont have an AH one can actually run a playershop. No point in that with an AH. I can see the pros with an AH. I'm lazy so for me I'd love an AH, or Even better just a menu-AH so I didnt Even have too walk too it either. Location based shops are so old fashion.
I didn't enjoy DAoC or Warhammer ( I was more of a UO / FFXI player ), but I can respect when a person makes a game he/she would want to play regardless if it isn't mainstream or not. In fact, this is a dream I had once, one of those fantasy like dreams that would never happen. Perhaps one that many gamers get in that, if they have billions of dollars, they would say "screw it, money makes money, here's $900,000,000 to make -my- perfect vision of a game. We'll have a community that helps develop it and say what they want if my original vision fits with their own, and as long as it pays for itself, I don't expect to have hundreds of thousands of subs or to even make my money back." While I'm sure making the money back is still important in reality, it's something I would like a billionaire gamer to do with the guidance of industry veterans or something in the future (the number is obviously too much, but it was an example).
It's one reason I was kind've sad to see 38 studios go under as the man put most of his savings into making that company and the MMO. Though it also showed us that the need of Industry Veterans are needed so mismanagement would be less of a possibility with the millions it takes. It will be interesting to see what someone can do in this day and age without investors or big publishers demanding they go certain directions. I'm even interested in Shroud of the Avatar for this reason, even if it really isn't all that much of an MMO by the way they described it (but it may be referred to as such at some point, as the blur between multiplayer and massively multiplayer is starting to blur as consoles catch up and the norm is established). In that case, Shroud seems to be ahead of it's time.
But I digress, this game is very much for a nice group of players. Housing will have "safe" areas where it won't be able to be torn down, with high rewards for those who build in areas where they are. As a big fan of housing in MMOs I don't think I would ever make a house where it could be burned down, simply because of the investment I put into houses. I spend months and months getting it the way I like in most cases. I would just be simply heartbroken if it was burnt down.
Auction Houses are not a necessity and are surely controversial. Diablo 3 is a very much in your face example of how, sometimes, Auction Houses can kill a game.
MJ has a very good reason for not including Auction Houses in his game and I think it will make the game much more enjoyable and rewarding to not be able to just walk up to a place and buy whatever I want all the time.
You know, way back, games didn't have auction houses and people actually TALKED to each other in order to sell items. It was pretty neat.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
This ^^.
CU has its issues, but those raised by the OP have been explained already.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
Isn't it odd how every MMO player wants a game tailored precisely to their invidual vision (generally a vision expressed by their favorite olde game), and no other ideas need apply?
I dunno, first couple of pages of this thread just seem entirely too hostile. I know, ya'll are going to get really tired of fighting off the "invaders" and preserving the 'purity of Mark's vision' for the next half a dozen years, but I think you've maybe circled the wagons just a little too early, this time.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
MJ has a very good reason for not including Auction Houses in his game
I don't think the reasoning he has given is very good.
and I think it will make the game much more enjoyable and rewarding to not be able to just walk up to a place and buy whatever I want all the time.
Except I really do just want to walk up and buy whatever I want so I can get back to actually playing the game, instead of playing a dumbass market-hunt simulation.
Unless they do it like ff14 did, where there are market wards and your actually able to search for what your looking for and it'll tell you who is selling it, and lead you to them, it also lists the price from lowest to highest amoung others who are selling it.
^^^
The best part is that this is what player shops turn into, which is the EXACT same thing as an AH, except more tedious due to having to run around for no goddamn reason.
You know, way back, games didn't have auction houses and people actually TALKED to each other in order to sell items. It was pretty neat.
People still talk to each other in the AH era in order to make faster sells, cheaper sells, faster and higher buys.
The difference is that it's not mandatory.
Keep in mind this isn't just another game coming out. The game isn't even halfway through the KS project and yet Mark has made the KS backer community feel more involved in the game than I have ever seen before. That has led to the feeling of ownership by the community and a sense of family. The KS Comments are truly a sight behold - already at just under 25k comments.
The OP's first sentence was a bit trollish in that the whole point of the game is no PvE and he either doesn't understand that without PvE you can't have NPC drops or he is acting like not having NPC drops amounts to not having color. It was a little like getting on the Eve forums and going No First Person??
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
If you don't think his reason for not including AHs is a good one than this definitely ain't the game for you. Besides the social benefits of not having an AH (I'll simply ignore your comment about people talking in the AH since you are either trolling or have never actually used an AH) Diablo 3 very much proved the fact that AH's diminsh the overall value of items in a game. It's simple supply and demand - make something easy to get and it's value goes down.
I also think that people are applying their experiences from other games to what they expect their experience will be in CU and it's a bit of a trap. You will only be able to buy items from other players or make your own. Very few, if any, games have done this. Auction houses cater to the easymode player base because they are an easy way for those players to acquire an item without having to farm for it.
Which is why every forum gets trolls. The fact that you specifically have to come to the CU forum to post something like that makes the intentions of the OP questionable. Although he does come around to actually posing questions, he ends his post in a very closeminded way.
Don't dip your toes in this pool Icewhite. There are piranhas everywhere!
I've played no MMORPG with an AH where chat was silent of people trying to sell under the AH, buy over the AH, buy in bulk for discount, sell in bulk for discount (or profit)*.
AHs cost overhead, and people with exceptional cases will always try to sell manually. With any relevant level of player population, manual selling in trade chat is something that will occur continuously.
In terms of other games ... I've played most MMORPGs that have been released in the US. There's not a single player shop system that I've liked. [mod edit] NONE of them promoted any sort of "socialization". The only result was frustration in finding what you were looking for, and how much time they drained away from actually playing the game. With a bonus graphical load / spam in cities (and a metric asston of superfluous floating text).
It's funny that you mention the social benefits btw. What social benefit do you get out of a player shop NPC? Is the player there? No. Facepalm. Are you going to chat up a bot? >_<
* Aside from GW2, since GW2 trading is extemely limited by intentional design, and features no actual secure trading mechanic.
AH make everything to easy. It should be a struggle to get certain things, if you put in a AH, crafters don't ever have to do anything, CU is not about that at all. Its about rvr and supporting it. Not buying 500 silk in bulk and sitting idle for 6 hours straight making dozens of them for selling making 1 cent profit on each. THAT is dumb MMO planing.
AH make sense in some games, just not this one.
Heartspark: Animist rr12, bors, Lone Enforcer, Retired
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You sound like that's any different from buying 500 silk from player shops that you searched for via the not-AH-but-still-indexes-and-searches-500-player-shops NPC, then running around for 20 minutes, then sitting idle for 6 hours straight making dozens of them for selling on your player shop making 1 cent profit on each.
Edit: Or without a search, it involves you running around for 3 hours between player shops to buy your 500 silk.
Pro.
I have neither pledged money nor said I would commit to this play this game when it comes out. I have only ever dicussed the subject matter at hand. Calling me a fanboy is a mistake. I defend the right of an idea being nurtured ... that is all.
Now that that is out of the way ...
Many here, including myself have clearly stated that other methods of searching items globally may very well exist but when a game has AN ENTIRE PILLAR of gameplay that is 1/3 of the entire game then throwing in a conventional AH fundamentally destroys this concept. How hard is this to understand?
Your defense of an AH for a class that is designed to be an active participant within the entire game world is so daft as to be called asinine. By that logic (and your love of analogies) you are ok with RvR fighting classes being able to kill their enemies from the confort of a large and safe city. BTW the proper analogy would be ordering online and not going to a store. Taking 1 step outside your door is an analogy of defending the lack of an AH.
Other games have indeed done things differently and they worked well in differing ways. To defend the traditional AH design without taking into account the dramatically different elements brought about by adding a pure crafter class, %100 player driven acconomy and 1/3 of the entire game design is a messure of pure ignorance. I have no clue of the final solution within CU if it gets made but one must consider that is trying to be accomplished and what an AH provides and takes away from the idea. A traditional AH clearly creates some large problems and detracts from the core philosophy of the game.
If someone wants goods delivered to their door then the crafter can provide delivery service perhaps. This is up the the players to decide by actually playing the game instead of conveniences destroying player options as is the trend in mmos.
Do you know why todays mmos have conveniences? Most AREN'T because players wanted them. You have simply been brainwashed into thinking that:
1. Instanced gameplay. You think players wanted this? No it is because game engines couldn't handle such large player numbers so instancing was introduced everywhere. It isn't to protect your sensitive fealings from fear of interacting with so many people. You simply got used to it and lost the original vision of what an mmo is about.
2. Instance/group finders. See above. This is a byproduct of direction of game design. Developers failed in making an actual mmo so now had to bandaid all the new and growing problems.
3. Auction Houses. Created because crafting was never actually anything more than a mini-game with little impact and loot now game through a random drop mechanic and gear race which was the new carrot on a stick for today's mmos. This wasn't always the case in all mmos and getting used to an AH is a reflection of getting used to a different style of game. CU isn't that style of game.
If you can't step outside the box ... stay in the box.
You stay sassy!
lol - I don't consider WTB and WTS advertisements spammed in all chat or even trade as 'social conversation'.
Hopefully player stalls will be populated with real people a lot of the times. CSE can certainly promote this by giving crafters incentives for actually being in their stall. Having to go to the bazaar and talk to crafters in order to buy your gear is certainly more social than seeing a WTS ad in chat and then loading up the AH. If a crafters stall is where he actually crafts then there should be no reason for people to not get most of their gear from the actual player themselves.
I think most games, because of all the loot drops, require players to be buying and selling a LOT. So when people hear that you will have to go to a specific place and talk to an actual person they freak out saying they are going to be spending all their time tracking gear down. If you think about how often you actually switch out gear even in a game with drops, it's not every 5 minutes. Now remove the drops and you are going to be shopping a whole lot less than in other games.
I imagine CU to be way more - buy gear you can afford, figure out what upgrades you need, kill enemies for gold or npc's for the resources needed, go get your upgrades. It's going to be much more simple than the current model of actually making your money off the drops which means you 'farming' trips interrupted by selling trips back to the city.
I'm also on the contra-AH side, and i think MJ's reasons for this design choice are valid. Sure, it may be considered an annoyance to actually go to a shop to pick up your item, but it's a great plus for RP gameplay and adds content & opportunity for the crafters/shop owners.
I'd like to take SWG as a reference for great Housing, Crafting and Market systems. The system allowed good crafters to stand out of the crowd. After a while of locating & buying items through the bazaar search, you'd eventually figure out who the top crafters on your server were. They'd have beatuifully decorated guild halls as shops, in prominent and easy-to reach locations, with well layed out NPC vendors for different item types, keeping them stocked with high-quality items. It was a sight to behold and a pleasure to shop there. You might even run into the man running it all, and have an inspiring chat, and you'd know who to go to for special requests. Only the best few could continuously deliver on such a high level, and they were certainly busy doing so. After all, crafters wasn't just a sidetrack to your normal PvP/PvE, it was a viable main occupation, similar to what's planned for Camelot Unchained.
This is an incredibly deep and immersive part of gameplay that an Auction House negates completely. The AH puts every crafter on the same level. You'd rob the good crafters of their well deserved recognition and reduce them to a name amongst thousands of others selling the same type of item. You could just stand still and buy together whatever you need from who's selling it the cheapest. There's no pride in being a crafter in such a system...
And if it's really THAT annoying to walk a couple of minutes to buy something, you could always pay someone to pick stuff up for you
easymodex I also must point out that you are almost counter-arguing yourself between this thread and the 'Economy' thread. In the Economy thread you bring up an excellence point about CU being able to go with a 'low' gold system because there will be no loot drops. You go on further to say that the system could almost be pure barter but that would be tedious so you need some currency but not much. The setup you are describing would not really support an Auction House and it surely wouldn't fit in with the lore.
Why go to all that trouble in setting up an Auction House in a low gold economy?
lol - I don't consider WTB and WTS advertisements spammed in all chat or even trade as 'social conversation'.
I consider the discussion around the prices and the whispered tells, discussion, and negotiation to be social conversation.
Because anything beyond that is pure Roleplay and IDGAF about the RP server.
Hopefully player stalls will be populated with real people a lot of the times.
Hopefully not because that sounds like the most boring gameplay I've ever heard of.
Note: you can still do this in an AH system. You stand next to the AH and /say WTS [whatever the hell you're selling].
Having to go to the bazaar and talk to crafters in order to buy your gear is certainly more social than seeing a WTS ad in chat and then loading up the AH.
You're not thinking / expressing clearly -- you are using an event that happens in both examples to justify one option:
In both systems, I will "/TRADE WTB 100% QUAL SWORD, HAVE MATS". No difference. When I want something custom or for a lower price (e.g. I have my own mats), I will look for a player.
In the AH system, I will walk to the AH to buy commodities (e.g. the metal).
In a player shop system, I will wonder aimlessly looking at floating text to buy the metal.
There's no fundamental difference except the amount of time I wasted with the player shop system (and how pissed I get when I go another screen and see the goddamn metal for cheaper than what I paid for).
Separate issues. Economy -- WHAT you're trading -- is separate from the AH/playershop. E.g. HOW you trade.
Low gold has to do with (a) gold intake [from NPCs / trash loot from NPCs] and material intake from the same NPCs from issued from your realm via points, and (b) the amount of gold drain into the system via repair / training costs / respecs / wood-stone for keep repairs / otherstuffthatcostsmoney.
E.g. you don't need mobs to drop tons of trash loot and drop tons of coin if you don't have to spend it on lots of random stuff. Specifically, if they drop materials you won't have much stuff to sell as often. But, you will still need abstract currency (coin). And when you have that coin you can purchase stuff ... via a goddamn AH because I want to go kill people in RvR, not run around for hours looking at stupid player shop text.
Well, we are going to have to disagree on this my friend. If you think that the AH and the economy are two separate issues you are kidding yourself though. If you have an AH, that is how goods in your economy flow. If you removed the AH from Diablo 3 tomorrow, for example, the economy crashes. Anything that is responsible for goods flowing through your economy is of course directly tied to your economy.
You took only my first sentence about crafter stalls and quoted on it - completely taking it out of context. You work for the media? I went on to say that if player stalls were also where you crafted then no problem. It wouldn't be boring unless you considered crafting boring.
This idea that you keep bringing up of conversation centered around the AH is misleading. You go to the AH to search through it and buy things, not to talk to people. Even if the impetus of you traveling to the AH was a WTS ad - you still aren't talking to someone. If you then can't find what you want, well guess what? You are no longer using the AH lol. You are now using social mechanisms to get your goods. Dang, that sounds a lot like a bazaar doesn't it?
Digital Auction Houses use clickable menu's to sell you things. The idea that any conversation is going on is quite ridiculous.