Personal Shops work great as long as there is an area listing interface.
MJ! Just clone AoW shop system!
Personal shops + area listing interface = AH with more running.
Zero social improvement. Next.
I'm actually wondering how that would work with this "build anywhere" idea I think CU will have. How will you even know WHERE people's shops are? Will they be as an attachment to their personal house, which can be built anywhere it sounds like.... or are all the player shops in the capital or something.
So you go to "crafters shops" row or something to buy goods. I dunno.
If they're all over the world, I wonder how you directed to the right one. I wonder if you can put your shop in wierd/remote/obscure locations? LOL
You could be like a crafting hermit living in the hills, that everyone knows you gotta go to to get the best "whatever".
I don't think anyone knows what the exact implementation will be yet, so stop fretting over systems you didn't like in the past in OTHER games.
All we know for sure is - commodities market likely... social interaction for selling trading goods... but he's also said he doesn't want people to have to senselessly waste a lot of time...
Maybe we should encourage MJ to do an update on trading/economics in CU?
Haggling will take place with crafters where they will accept trades of other items for whatever's being sold by them.
You don't haggle with bots. Why are you posting when you can't even comprehend the trading system being discussed?
You really are a moron aren't you ?? Here's a really far out concept that I know a person of your limited imagination will struggle to process...... Try talking to the actual crafter lol if the houses are like they were in daoc they will have the owners name on them so all you have to do is MSG the crafter and SHOCK HORROR actually have a conversation. Your a trolling idiot just do one will u
Why would I talk to the crafter when the item they are selling is on their merchant bot or being sold by them while they are afk or logged out?
#sigh# who say they are logged out? Maybe there's an item u see for sale but dont have 300g so ask him if he would take 200g and a weapon you have but don't need for your class? Maybe you want him to craft something different than what he had listed. Use some imagination or have the years of being spoon fed everything in a game reduced you to a sheep just following the rest around aimless
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
That's how player stalls work, unless you expect the player to be at their keyboard for 16 hours straight ready with baited breath to answer the questions of random, infrequent shoppers.
And if he is there, I'll double check to see if it's a bot or not and report them to get them banned.
That's all assuming that all player stalls aren't bots by default (e.g. how the CM type or FF14 player shops worked).
Maybe there's an item u see for sale but dont have 300g so ask him if he would take 200g and a weapon you have but don't need for your class? Maybe you want him to craft something different than what he had listed.
I could do the same in an AH system. In fact, I have. If a random crafter has something random listed and I have an interest in a similar item, I will send them a tell.
Why would I talk to the crafter when the item they are selling is on their merchant bot or being sold by them while they are afk or logged out?
#sigh# who say they are logged out? Maybe there's an item u see for sale but dont have 300g so ask him if he would take 200g and a weapon you have but don't need for your class? Maybe you want him to craft something different than what he had listed. Use some imagination or have the years of being spoon fed everything in a game reduced you to a sheep just following the rest around aimless
Look, this thread just needs to be closed. As some others have pointed out, easymode changes his argument depending on your response. He also picks out pieces of your response to criticise. He simply wants to argue, he doesn't want a discussion.
He is know making assumptions and drawing conclusions about the CU player stall model when it doesn't even exist yet. He's moved on from arguing to predicting the future. I'm pretty sure that is Stage 5 in the troll handbook.
He hasn't read enough about the game or he would know that MJ has already said there will be merchants in the game for basic items - no need to purchase those from players or an AH.
I mean, he tried to argue that the economy and Auction House of a game are two separate things lol.
He is clearly a fan of 'easy mode' Auction Houses so maybe he gives CU a try, maybe he doesn't. If he does I'm sure he will be amazed at the Community of a game that is focused on player to player interactions and not just how to make everything easy.
I like social interaction. I don't like negotiating or interacting with greedy aholes. Look at the mess of PoE with it's stupid currency and lack of any decent trading system. Everyone wants more than anyone else is willing to give without wasting a lot of time swinging their peen around. It's honestly ruining that game.
Don't want an AH, fine. But don't think that requiring haggling and conversing with buyers and sellers is going to deepen the experience as much as it's just going to result in removal of immersion through normal-speak and behavior that is detrimental to community building.
That's how player stalls work, unless you expect the player to be at their keyboard for 16 hours straight ready with baited breath to answer the questions of random, infrequent shoppers.
And if he is there, I'll double check to see if it's a bot or not and report them to get them banned.
That's all assuming that all player stalls aren't bots by default (e.g. how the CM type or FF14 player shops worked).
Maybe there's an item u see for sale but dont have 300g so ask him if he would take 200g and a weapon you have but don't need for your class? Maybe you want him to craft something different than what he had listed.
I could do the same in an AH system. In fact, I have. If a random crafter has something random listed and I have an interest in a similar item, I will send them a tell.
Actually, for my Inn I plan on having a bartender standing behind the counter all the time. Even if I'm not even really playing the game just load up my bartender account like before work, after work etc... I might even have my wife keep it online while I'm at work and she can talk to the people in the Inn.
I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!
The economy existed before Ebay, and it will exist fine w/out it.
But in all seriousness, as others have mentioned, its not like you have to sit there all day to keep your store open, like you had to in Aion. You'll place your items on an NPC at your house and people can come by and shop. The difference is, they have to come by your house to buy the stuff, so it requires player interaction, and it allows you to set up your own house as a shop, which is pretty cool if you are a crafter.
He hasn't read enough about the game or he would know that MJ has already said there will be merchants in the game for basic items - no need to purchase those from players or an AH.
If the merchants cover all 'basic' items (and more importantly, craft materials), then NPCs will not need to drop materials, which MJ has also stated that the game will include.
I mean, he tried to argue that the economy and Auction House of a game are two separate things lol.
They are. They indirectly affect each other, but they are separate. The AH is a tool for trade, the economy is the content of what is traded.
He is clearly a fan of 'easy mode' Auction Houses so maybe he gives CU a try, maybe he doesn't.
I'm a fan of AHs because AHs work really damn well, and I haven't witnessed an MMO that has implemented anything else that is effective (and I've played a hell of a lot of them).
As I said previously, the 'direct trade only with bulletin board' is the only reasonable alternative to an AH mentioned because it actually offers some benefit (even though it has a cost of inconvenience).
All variants of 'player shops' and 'stalls' and merchants are just categorically inferior to the AH. I lol every time I see someone defend them or use them as an example. I get flashbacks of 763 bots in the FF14 marketplace and how completely retarded the entire system was. I remember the player shops in Aion and how they died off within a month because the AH was -that- much better. I remember all the crafters and other sellers/buyers I spoke with individually in WoW, WAR, and DAOC, regardless of the presence of an AH or CM system.
Actually, for my Inn I plan on having a bartender standing behind the counter all the time. Even if I'm not even really playing the game just load up my bartender account like before work, after work etc... I might even have my wife keep it online while I'm at work and she can talk to the people in the Inn.
That's actually pretty cool. I saw that once in UO a long time ago and I was impressed.
However, inconveniencing the entire playerbase to support that option seems like a big tradeoff. Especially when: (a) very few players will do things like that, and (b) you will honestly get just about the same patronage in your inn with an AH system as you would with a player shop system (e.g. low), unless a lot of random crafters choose your inn to place their bots.
The last caveat is a real longshot case, but is the only way a "player shop" bot system would have legitimate benefits.
He hasn't read enough about the game or he would know that MJ has already said there will be merchants in the game for basic items - no need to purchase those from players or an AH.
If the merchants cover all 'basic' items (and more importantly, craft materials), then NPCs will not need to drop materials, which MJ has also stated that the game will include.
I mean, he tried to argue that the economy and Auction House of a game are two separate things lol.
They are. They indirectly affect each other, but they are separate. The AH is a tool for trade, the economy is the content of what is traded.
He is clearly a fan of 'easy mode' Auction Houses so maybe he gives CU a try, maybe he doesn't.
I'm a fan of AHs because AHs work really damn well, and I haven't witnessed an MMO that has implemented anything else that is effective (and I've played a hell of a lot of them).
As I said previously, the 'direct trade only with bulletin board' is the only reasonable alternative to an AH mentioned because it actually offers some benefit (even though it has a cost of inconvenience).
All variants of 'player shops' and 'stalls' and merchants are just categorically inferior to the AH. I lol every time I see someone defend them or use them as an example. I get flashbacks of 763 bots in the FF14 marketplace and how completely retarded the entire system was. I remember the player shops in Aion and how they died off within a month because the AH was -that- much better. I remember all the crafters and other sellers/buyers I spoke with individually in WoW, WAR, and DAOC, regardless of the presence of an AH or CM system.
This economy/AH argument is actually pretty easy to solve.
Easymodex - I am a new player to WoW. Please explain to me the economy.
AH make everything to easy. It should be a struggle to get certain things, if you put in a AH, crafters don't ever have to do anything, CU is not about that at all. Its about rvr and supporting it. Not buying 500 silk in bulk and sitting idle for 6 hours straight making dozens of them for selling making 1 cent profit on each. THAT is dumb MMO planing.
AH make sense in some games, just not this one.
You sound like that's any different from buying 500 silk from player shops that you searched for via the not-AH-but-still-indexes-and-searches-500-player-shops NPC, then running around for 20 minutes, then sitting idle for 6 hours straight making dozens of them for selling on your player shop making 1 cent profit on each.
Edit: Or without a search, it involves you running around for 3 hours between player shops to buy your 500 silk.
Pro.
The difference is that player that has 500 silk, earned 500 silk himself in battle/rvr. He is not some AH manpulator playing for money only, he earned it to help. From limited info we know on the game, having bulk of mechandise is not going to be helpfull in and shape or form, you are selling GOODS you make.
The way the game is setting up, I would not be surprised that items you get to make items would be non-tradable, to make every crafer item unique. Makes more sense. Hell, they could even not have any money at all, and everything is bartered by item drops only.
Easymodex - I am a new player to WoW. Please explain to me the economy.
I haven't played WoW in 5 years or so. Last I recall there was a lot of daily farming for $ intake and crafting mat gathering (which provided ancillary PvE drops for more $). Then, there's a lot of $ outflow from repair bills and consumables of various types.
There was bonus value for some items due to game mechanics (like 59 BC greens due to alts at the 59 BG cap).
There were bulk buyers or sellers (or urgent buyers/sellers) hawking the trade chat with WTB/WTS.
Of course, that's extremely general. Also, none of that has anything to do with the AH. Hmmm ?:|.
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The difference is that player that has 500 silk, earned 500 silk himself in battle/rvr. He is not some AH manpulator playing for money only, he earned it to help.
What? Is that different from manipulating player shop bot prices? I know people in DAOC who bought a shitload of mats at low prices to monopolize them and resell them at higher prices.
How the hell do player shops reduce that?
Are you saying that purchasing mats from other players is cheating? LMAO.
From limited info we know on the game, having bulk of mechandise is not going to be helpfull in and shape or form, you are selling GOODS you make.
Fascinating. I wonder how you acquire 1,500 potion ingredients to make the 500 potions for your guild and to sell as the GOODS you make.
I guess you go and pick every single flower and kill every single NPC for hide.
Hell, they could even not have any money at all, and everything is bartered by item drops only.
POE demonstrates that pure barter with no currency is dubious at best.
Am I the only one that remembers the pre housing economy of DAOC? No player stores or merchants. You went to the capital city of your realm and asked a crafter to make you something or check the chat for what people had available. This was of course if you didn't have guild crafters you could ask, which most major guilds had at least one master of each craft. Everyone knew which crafters would take a request from anyone and which ones did guild only requests. Craftes were very well known, hell I still remember the name of the guy who created my first masterpiece weapon (was a great hammer by Flippy) and that was 9 years ago. There was an actual community around crafting. You may have had to wait a week or two to get the weapon or armor piece but I still miss that feeling of community rather than a super market format with absolutely no interaction with anyone other than an npc.
Easymodex - I am a new player to WoW. Please explain to me the economy.
I haven't played WoW in 5 years or so. Last I recall there was a lot of daily farming for $ intake and crafting mat gathering (which provided ancillary PvE drops for more $). Then, there's a lot of $ outflow from repair bills and consumables of various types.
There was bonus value for some items due to game mechanics (like 59 BC greens due to alts at the 59 BG cap).
There were bulk buyers or sellers (or urgent buyers/sellers) hawking the trade chat with WTB/WTS.
Of course, that's extremely general. Also, none of that has anything to do with the AH. Hmmm ?:|.
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The difference is that player that has 500 silk, earned 500 silk himself in battle/rvr. He is not some AH manpulator playing for money only, he earned it to help.
What? Is that different from manipulating player shop bot prices? I know people in DAOC who bought a shitload of mats at low prices to monopolize them and resell them at higher prices.
How the hell do player shops reduce that?
Are you saying that purchasing mats from other players is cheating? LMAO.
From limited info we know on the game, having bulk of mechandise is not going to be helpfull in and shape or form, you are selling GOODS you make.
Fascinating. I wonder how you acquire 1,500 potion ingredients to make the 500 potions for your guild and to sell as the GOODS you make.
I guess you go and pick every single flower and kill every single NPC for hide.
Hell, they could even not have any money at all, and everything is bartered by item drops only.
POE demonstrates that pure barter with no currency is dubious at best.
lol - I guess not too surprisingly you left out the main source of the economy - the Auction House. You describe one example of cash flow and some random in-game bonus.
I guess you aren't even trying now. Just in case you still are, here is the wiki link to the term economy:
Notice the second thing they mention - distribution or trade. I don't see cash flow in there at all. It is impossible to describe the economy of a game without describing it's distribution or trade method. An Auction House is absolutely directly linked to the economy of a game since it is the method by which distribution happens.
Still waiting for a reason other than convenience to include an Auction House in a game.
You may have had to wait a week or two to get the weapon or armor piece but I still miss that feeling of community rather than a super market format with absolutely no interaction with anyone other than an npc.
Ironically, as I have said more than once, I support a "direct trade only" model as a legit alternative to the AH.
The piece of this thread that is dragging on is the part where everyone and their brother insists that a bot/shop system causes players to talk with players (as opposed to clicking on the bot, rofl).
These players have a strong cognitive dissonance and forget that in order to get any social interaction better than the AH model is to go all the way to direct trades, e.g. vanilla DAOC. I wonder if MJ is actually planning to go this far back.
For a guy that has no interest in this game he's spending a lot of time posting
You must have no interest in the game. I base this statement on virtually nothing, much like your post.
You may have had to wait a week or two to get the weapon or armor piece but I still miss that feeling of community rather than a super market format with absolutely no interaction with anyone other than an npc.
Ironically, as I have said more than once, I support a "direct trade only" model as a legit alternative to the AH.
The piece of this thread that is dragging on is the part where everyone and their brother insists that a bot/shop system causes players to talk with players (as opposed to clicking on the bot, rofl).
These players have a strong cognitive dissonance and forget that in order to get any social interaction better than the AH model is to go all the way to direct trades, e.g. vanilla DAOC. I wonder if MJ is actually planning to go this far back.
For a guy that has no interest in this game he's spending a lot of time posting
You must have no interest in the game. I base this statement on virtually nothing, much like your post.
'Talk' isn't the same as 'community'. CSE is trying to support community. I go to the locally owned coffee shop because it's a part of my community. If the shop owner is there, great, I talk to them. If not, I'm still going to 'their' shop not some faceless Starbucks. And although I bag on Starbucks here they could certainly be the 'local coffee shop'.
Same would be true in CU. Going to the Auction House is not the same as going to Easymodex's stall. When someone asks me where I got that awesome looking Hammer of Worm Smiting +10 I will actually be able to say to them Easymodex's shop over in Mularn near the entrance.
Even if I purchased the hammer from your 'bot' it still supports a sense of Community. Can an Auction House do that?
Still waiting for a reason other than convenience to include an Auction House in a game.
Still waiting for any legit reason other than nostalgia to use bots in a game as shops.
No one ever said CU was using bots so please refrain from simply making things up to support your argument.
But in terms of a legit reason for using player stalls (a term that has been brought up) - Community. As I describe in a post above.
No one has described how players stalls are going to work. You created this bot idea simply because you can't think of another way to implement player stalls. Please do not confuse things you make up with things the devs say are going to happen.
Oh, and still waiting for a reason other than convenience to include an Auction House in a game.
EDITED to include the same question from above that hasn't yet been answered.
'Talk' isn't the same as 'community'. CSE is trying to support community. I go to the locally owned coffee shop because it's a part of my community.
Lol. This is going to get both very interesting and stupid, very fast, at the same time.
1. The locally owned coffee shop is part of your community because the people that work there are part of your peoples. This example is congruous to the player who plans to open an inn and run the inn '24x7' (not really but more or less often) between himself and his wife. E.g. assuming players will leave their bots in the inn, he will provide a real person actively providing service (e.g. the coffee shop employees).
2. Player bots are not congruous to a locally owned coffee shop. They are congruous to a locally owned vending machine on the street where you insert a few coins and it dumps a soda or whatever into the dispenser.
Downstairs from where I am sitting right now is a vending machine with snickers, twix, reese's, next to another vending machine with a coke, diet coke, sprite, et al.
In this scenario, the player who owns the vending machine is congruous to the guy who stops by at a random time of day to fill up the vending machine.
I think I've spoken to said person once in my life. They're not part of my community because I don't know who the hell they are and I have next to 0 connection with them.
The model of player-run bot shops is equivalent to vending machines. It provides -zero- community over that of ebay.
3. If you actually chatted with the vending machine stock replacement person more than once, or if they lives near you, or if you even knew their goddamn name, you would have more of a sense of community with them. Communicating to people is the first step to building a community.
4. Thanks for this example though. From now on I will refer to the player bot/shop system as the "vending machine" model, which encapsulates the system more clearly with fewer words.
To summarize: the only advantage of an AH over "other" systems is that it's more efficient and more convenient. And it's really good at what it does. The other systems actually have nearly zero benefits over using an AH, until you get down and dirty to "direct trade only". At that point, you actually get the community-enhancing socialization aspect of 'vanilla DAOC', etc.
Edit:
5. Active player stalls are no different than a player sitting at the forge staring at their keyboard until someone walks up to them. No 'system' is required for that, and it's the same as direct trade.
6. Inactive player stalls (where the player opens a stall and goes afk) is the same as a bot, except the player can't log off or go do other things. E.g. this is where they alt-tab and watch a LoL VoD of NA getting crushed by Asians.
I got attracted to this thread because of the super nerds.
Maplestory has a stall system, and it's been in use for YEARS.
Does it support community? no. The big bad guilds wait for server mantainence to end, and are the first to sign into their worlds. They go to channel 1. and they rapidly put down all the stalls they can to fill up the room. Giving you no chance for a decent spot. Nobody bothers looking anywhere else than the first few spots, unless they really need an item and decide to spend an hour looking through all the stalls.
With a limit of one stall per character I wonder if it'll be any different.
And the way i see it, the auction house is just a big stall all the mercants entrust their items to. the merchant of this stall catagorizes everything in a nice neat way, so that anything someone is looking for can be easily searched for. the merchant of this one big stall takes a smalll commission for everything that is sold, since he's the one making it easier for people to buy it.
Diablo 3's ah would be completley fine, if there were less drops, and more valuable rares.
but since most people cant compete with other items, no one bothers with their items, unless underpriced.
I curious to see how builders have the time to make weapons, if they also have to build every construct on the battlefield. i'd also like to see if you need resources to build and make weapons.... but in time we all shall see.
I'll be watching to see if this game turns out to be anything like what the fanboys are saying it will be.
ESO is seeming a bit shaky, but the fanboys are still backin it up.. so we'll just have to see.
'Talk' isn't the same as 'community'. CSE is trying to support community. I go to the locally owned coffee shop because it's a part of my community.
Lol. This is going to get both very interesting and stupid, very fast, at the same time.
1. The locally owned coffee shop is part of your community because the people that work there are part of your peoples. This example is congruous to the player who plans to open an inn and run the inn '24x7' (not really but more or less often) between himself and his wife. E.g. assuming players will leave their bots in the inn, he will provide a real person actively providing service (e.g. the coffee shop employees).
2. Player bots are not congruous to a locally owned coffee shop. They are congruous to a locally owned vending machine on the street where you insert a few coins and it dumps a soda or whatever into the dispenser.
Downstairs from where I am sitting right now is a vending machine with snickers, twix, reese's, next to another vending machine with a coke, diet coke, sprite, et al.
In this scenario, the player who owns the vending machine is congruous to the guy who stops by at a random time of day to fill up the vending machine.
I think I've spoken to said person once in my life. They're not part of my community because I don't know who the hell they are and I have next to 0 connection with them.
The model of player-run bot shops is equivalent to vending machines. It provides -zero- community over that of ebay.
3. If you actually chatted with the vending machine stock replacement person more than once, or if they lives near you, or if you even knew their goddamn name, you would have more of a sense of community with them. Communicating to people is the first step to building a community.
4. Thanks for this example though. From now on I will refer to the player bot/shop system as the "vending machine" model, which encapsulates the system more clearly with fewer words.
To summarize: the only advantage of an AH over "other" systems is that it's more efficient and more convenient. And it's really good at what it does. The other systems actually have nearly zero benefits over using an AH, until you get down and dirty to "direct trade only". At that point, you actually get the community-enhancing socialization aspect of 'vanilla DAOC', etc.
You were wrong about the interesting part, correct about the stupid part. Comparing player stalls to vending machines is definitely stupid. The vending machines are the NPC merchants. You don't purchase anything significant from a vending machine therefore is has very little lasting value in your life. In order to have congruency in this very stupid analogy you've created it would go like this: The vending machine in your office would have a big sign that says SmudgePudge's Vending Machine. My vending machine would sell tie's. You would buy the tie, wear it, get compliments, and refer your friends back to SmudgePudge's Vending Machine where they could buy a sweet tie.
As we've already established though, this is a stupid analogy because it dosen't exist. Not any part of it.
But see, if you had read my entire post, you would have never created this absurd analogy which will now, unfortunately, follow you around these boards. You would have seen my Hammer of Worm Smiting +10 story and hopefully would have never thought of vending machines. But now you are the vending machine guy. I'm sorry.
However - JOY TO THE HEAVENS! We actually have an answer to the question about why to include Auction Houses. The answer - convenience. That's it. Nothing more. They simply provide players with an easier way of doing something. Thank you, we can now close this thread. 'Easy mode' isn't going to exist in CU, CSE has already said that.
If you don't like it, go back to your easy mode game.
Comments
I'm actually wondering how that would work with this "build anywhere" idea I think CU will have. How will you even know WHERE people's shops are? Will they be as an attachment to their personal house, which can be built anywhere it sounds like.... or are all the player shops in the capital or something.
So you go to "crafters shops" row or something to buy goods. I dunno.
If they're all over the world, I wonder how you directed to the right one. I wonder if you can put your shop in wierd/remote/obscure locations? LOL
You could be like a crafting hermit living in the hills, that everyone knows you gotta go to to get the best "whatever".
I don't think anyone knows what the exact implementation will be yet, so stop fretting over systems you didn't like in the past in OTHER games.
All we know for sure is - commodities market likely... social interaction for selling trading goods... but he's also said he doesn't want people to have to senselessly waste a lot of time...
Maybe we should encourage MJ to do an update on trading/economics in CU?
MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/
You really are a moron aren't you ?? Here's a really far out concept that I know a person of your limited imagination will struggle to process...... Try talking to the actual crafter lol if the houses are like they were in daoc they will have the owners name on them so all you have to do is MSG the crafter and SHOCK HORROR actually have a conversation. Your a trolling idiot just do one will u
Why would I talk to the crafter when the item they are selling is on their merchant bot or being sold by them while they are afk or logged out?
#sigh# who say they are logged out? Maybe there's an item u see for sale but dont have 300g so ask him if he would take 200g and a weapon you have but don't need for your class? Maybe you want him to craft something different than what he had listed. Use some imagination or have the years of being spoon fed everything in a game reduced you to a sheep just following the rest around aimless
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
#sigh# who say they are logged out?
That's how player stalls work, unless you expect the player to be at their keyboard for 16 hours straight ready with baited breath to answer the questions of random, infrequent shoppers.
And if he is there, I'll double check to see if it's a bot or not and report them to get them banned.
That's all assuming that all player stalls aren't bots by default (e.g. how the CM type or FF14 player shops worked).
Maybe there's an item u see for sale but dont have 300g so ask him if he would take 200g and a weapon you have but don't need for your class? Maybe you want him to craft something different than what he had listed.
I could do the same in an AH system. In fact, I have. If a random crafter has something random listed and I have an interest in a similar item, I will send them a tell.
Look, this thread just needs to be closed. As some others have pointed out, easymode changes his argument depending on your response. He also picks out pieces of your response to criticise. He simply wants to argue, he doesn't want a discussion.
He is know making assumptions and drawing conclusions about the CU player stall model when it doesn't even exist yet. He's moved on from arguing to predicting the future. I'm pretty sure that is Stage 5 in the troll handbook.
He hasn't read enough about the game or he would know that MJ has already said there will be merchants in the game for basic items - no need to purchase those from players or an AH.
I mean, he tried to argue that the economy and Auction House of a game are two separate things lol.
He is clearly a fan of 'easy mode' Auction Houses so maybe he gives CU a try, maybe he doesn't. If he does I'm sure he will be amazed at the Community of a game that is focused on player to player interactions and not just how to make everything easy.
I like social interaction. I don't like negotiating or interacting with greedy aholes. Look at the mess of PoE with it's stupid currency and lack of any decent trading system. Everyone wants more than anyone else is willing to give without wasting a lot of time swinging their peen around. It's honestly ruining that game.
Don't want an AH, fine. But don't think that requiring haggling and conversing with buyers and sellers is going to deepen the experience as much as it's just going to result in removal of immersion through normal-speak and behavior that is detrimental to community building.
Actually, for my Inn I plan on having a bartender standing behind the counter all the time. Even if I'm not even really playing the game just load up my bartender account like before work, after work etc... I might even have my wife keep it online while I'm at work and she can talk to the people in the Inn.
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He hasn't read enough about the game or he would know that MJ has already said there will be merchants in the game for basic items - no need to purchase those from players or an AH.
If the merchants cover all 'basic' items (and more importantly, craft materials), then NPCs will not need to drop materials, which MJ has also stated that the game will include.
I mean, he tried to argue that the economy and Auction House of a game are two separate things lol.
They are. They indirectly affect each other, but they are separate. The AH is a tool for trade, the economy is the content of what is traded.
He is clearly a fan of 'easy mode' Auction Houses so maybe he gives CU a try, maybe he doesn't.
I'm a fan of AHs because AHs work really damn well, and I haven't witnessed an MMO that has implemented anything else that is effective (and I've played a hell of a lot of them).
As I said previously, the 'direct trade only with bulletin board' is the only reasonable alternative to an AH mentioned because it actually offers some benefit (even though it has a cost of inconvenience).
All variants of 'player shops' and 'stalls' and merchants are just categorically inferior to the AH. I lol every time I see someone defend them or use them as an example. I get flashbacks of 763 bots in the FF14 marketplace and how completely retarded the entire system was. I remember the player shops in Aion and how they died off within a month because the AH was -that- much better. I remember all the crafters and other sellers/buyers I spoke with individually in WoW, WAR, and DAOC, regardless of the presence of an AH or CM system.
Actually, for my Inn I plan on having a bartender standing behind the counter all the time. Even if I'm not even really playing the game just load up my bartender account like before work, after work etc... I might even have my wife keep it online while I'm at work and she can talk to the people in the Inn.
That's actually pretty cool. I saw that once in UO a long time ago and I was impressed.
However, inconveniencing the entire playerbase to support that option seems like a big tradeoff. Especially when: (a) very few players will do things like that, and (b) you will honestly get just about the same patronage in your inn with an AH system as you would with a player shop system (e.g. low), unless a lot of random crafters choose your inn to place their bots.
The last caveat is a real longshot case, but is the only way a "player shop" bot system would have legitimate benefits.
This economy/AH argument is actually pretty easy to solve.
Easymodex - I am a new player to WoW. Please explain to me the economy.
The difference is that player that has 500 silk, earned 500 silk himself in battle/rvr. He is not some AH manpulator playing for money only, he earned it to help. From limited info we know on the game, having bulk of mechandise is not going to be helpfull in and shape or form, you are selling GOODS you make.
The way the game is setting up, I would not be surprised that items you get to make items would be non-tradable, to make every crafer item unique. Makes more sense. Hell, they could even not have any money at all, and everything is bartered by item drops only.
Having a AH is a lazy way to do it.
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Easymodex - I am a new player to WoW. Please explain to me the economy.
I haven't played WoW in 5 years or so. Last I recall there was a lot of daily farming for $ intake and crafting mat gathering (which provided ancillary PvE drops for more $). Then, there's a lot of $ outflow from repair bills and consumables of various types.
There was bonus value for some items due to game mechanics (like 59 BC greens due to alts at the 59 BG cap).
There were bulk buyers or sellers (or urgent buyers/sellers) hawking the trade chat with WTB/WTS.
Of course, that's extremely general. Also, none of that has anything to do with the AH. Hmmm ?:|.
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The difference is that player that has 500 silk, earned 500 silk himself in battle/rvr. He is not some AH manpulator playing for money only, he earned it to help.
What? Is that different from manipulating player shop bot prices? I know people in DAOC who bought a shitload of mats at low prices to monopolize them and resell them at higher prices.
How the hell do player shops reduce that?
Are you saying that purchasing mats from other players is cheating? LMAO.
From limited info we know on the game, having bulk of mechandise is not going to be helpfull in and shape or form, you are selling GOODS you make.
Fascinating. I wonder how you acquire 1,500 potion ingredients to make the 500 potions for your guild and to sell as the GOODS you make.
I guess you go and pick every single flower and kill every single NPC for hide.
Hell, they could even not have any money at all, and everything is bartered by item drops only.
POE demonstrates that pure barter with no currency is dubious at best.
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lol - I guess not too surprisingly you left out the main source of the economy - the Auction House. You describe one example of cash flow and some random in-game bonus.
I guess you aren't even trying now. Just in case you still are, here is the wiki link to the term economy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy
Notice the second thing they mention - distribution or trade. I don't see cash flow in there at all. It is impossible to describe the economy of a game without describing it's distribution or trade method. An Auction House is absolutely directly linked to the economy of a game since it is the method by which distribution happens.
Still waiting for a reason other than convenience to include an Auction House in a game.
You may have had to wait a week or two to get the weapon or armor piece but I still miss that feeling of community rather than a super market format with absolutely no interaction with anyone other than an npc.
Ironically, as I have said more than once, I support a "direct trade only" model as a legit alternative to the AH.
The piece of this thread that is dragging on is the part where everyone and their brother insists that a bot/shop system causes players to talk with players (as opposed to clicking on the bot, rofl).
These players have a strong cognitive dissonance and forget that in order to get any social interaction better than the AH model is to go all the way to direct trades, e.g. vanilla DAOC. I wonder if MJ is actually planning to go this far back.
For a guy that has no interest in this game he's spending a lot of time posting
You must have no interest in the game. I base this statement on virtually nothing, much like your post.
Still waiting for any legit reason other than nostalgia to use bots in a game as shops.
'Talk' isn't the same as 'community'. CSE is trying to support community. I go to the locally owned coffee shop because it's a part of my community. If the shop owner is there, great, I talk to them. If not, I'm still going to 'their' shop not some faceless Starbucks. And although I bag on Starbucks here they could certainly be the 'local coffee shop'.
Same would be true in CU. Going to the Auction House is not the same as going to Easymodex's stall. When someone asks me where I got that awesome looking Hammer of Worm Smiting +10 I will actually be able to say to them Easymodex's shop over in Mularn near the entrance.
Even if I purchased the hammer from your 'bot' it still supports a sense of Community. Can an Auction House do that?
No one ever said CU was using bots so please refrain from simply making things up to support your argument.
But in terms of a legit reason for using player stalls (a term that has been brought up) - Community. As I describe in a post above.
No one has described how players stalls are going to work. You created this bot idea simply because you can't think of another way to implement player stalls. Please do not confuse things you make up with things the devs say are going to happen.
Oh, and still waiting for a reason other than convenience to include an Auction House in a game.
EDITED to include the same question from above that hasn't yet been answered.
'Talk' isn't the same as 'community'. CSE is trying to support community. I go to the locally owned coffee shop because it's a part of my community.
Lol. This is going to get both very interesting and stupid, very fast, at the same time.
1. The locally owned coffee shop is part of your community because the people that work there are part of your peoples. This example is congruous to the player who plans to open an inn and run the inn '24x7' (not really but more or less often) between himself and his wife. E.g. assuming players will leave their bots in the inn, he will provide a real person actively providing service (e.g. the coffee shop employees).
2. Player bots are not congruous to a locally owned coffee shop. They are congruous to a locally owned vending machine on the street where you insert a few coins and it dumps a soda or whatever into the dispenser.
Downstairs from where I am sitting right now is a vending machine with snickers, twix, reese's, next to another vending machine with a coke, diet coke, sprite, et al.
In this scenario, the player who owns the vending machine is congruous to the guy who stops by at a random time of day to fill up the vending machine.
I think I've spoken to said person once in my life. They're not part of my community because I don't know who the hell they are and I have next to 0 connection with them.
The model of player-run bot shops is equivalent to vending machines. It provides -zero- community over that of ebay.
3. If you actually chatted with the vending machine stock replacement person more than once, or if they lives near you, or if you even knew their goddamn name, you would have more of a sense of community with them. Communicating to people is the first step to building a community.
4. Thanks for this example though. From now on I will refer to the player bot/shop system as the "vending machine" model, which encapsulates the system more clearly with fewer words.
To summarize: the only advantage of an AH over "other" systems is that it's more efficient and more convenient. And it's really good at what it does. The other systems actually have nearly zero benefits over using an AH, until you get down and dirty to "direct trade only". At that point, you actually get the community-enhancing socialization aspect of 'vanilla DAOC', etc.
Edit:
5. Active player stalls are no different than a player sitting at the forge staring at their keyboard until someone walks up to them. No 'system' is required for that, and it's the same as direct trade.
6. Inactive player stalls (where the player opens a stall and goes afk) is the same as a bot, except the player can't log off or go do other things. E.g. this is where they alt-tab and watch a LoL VoD of NA getting crushed by Asians.
I got attracted to this thread because of the super nerds.
Maplestory has a stall system, and it's been in use for YEARS.
Does it support community? no. The big bad guilds wait for server mantainence to end, and are the first to sign into their worlds. They go to channel 1. and they rapidly put down all the stalls they can to fill up the room. Giving you no chance for a decent spot. Nobody bothers looking anywhere else than the first few spots, unless they really need an item and decide to spend an hour looking through all the stalls.
With a limit of one stall per character I wonder if it'll be any different.
And the way i see it, the auction house is just a big stall all the mercants entrust their items to. the merchant of this stall catagorizes everything in a nice neat way, so that anything someone is looking for can be easily searched for. the merchant of this one big stall takes a smalll commission for everything that is sold, since he's the one making it easier for people to buy it.
Diablo 3's ah would be completley fine, if there were less drops, and more valuable rares.
but since most people cant compete with other items, no one bothers with their items, unless underpriced.
I curious to see how builders have the time to make weapons, if they also have to build every construct on the battlefield. i'd also like to see if you need resources to build and make weapons.... but in time we all shall see.
I'll be watching to see if this game turns out to be anything like what the fanboys are saying it will be.
ESO is seeming a bit shaky, but the fanboys are still backin it up.. so we'll just have to see.
You were wrong about the interesting part, correct about the stupid part. Comparing player stalls to vending machines is definitely stupid. The vending machines are the NPC merchants. You don't purchase anything significant from a vending machine therefore is has very little lasting value in your life. In order to have congruency in this very stupid analogy you've created it would go like this: The vending machine in your office would have a big sign that says SmudgePudge's Vending Machine. My vending machine would sell tie's. You would buy the tie, wear it, get compliments, and refer your friends back to SmudgePudge's Vending Machine where they could buy a sweet tie.
As we've already established though, this is a stupid analogy because it dosen't exist. Not any part of it.
But see, if you had read my entire post, you would have never created this absurd analogy which will now, unfortunately, follow you around these boards. You would have seen my Hammer of Worm Smiting +10 story and hopefully would have never thought of vending machines. But now you are the vending machine guy. I'm sorry.
However - JOY TO THE HEAVENS! We actually have an answer to the question about why to include Auction Houses. The answer - convenience. That's it. Nothing more. They simply provide players with an easier way of doing something. Thank you, we can now close this thread. 'Easy mode' isn't going to exist in CU, CSE has already said that.
If you don't like it, go back to your easy mode game.